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THERE SHOULD BE BLOOD: Liberal Democrats Left Out in the Cold

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:55 PM
Original message
THERE SHOULD BE BLOOD: Liberal Democrats Left Out in the Cold
Finally, somebody put this unenthusiastic feeling into words for me. . .and I suspect for many of you.

=====
I thought about the experience issue, her biggest advantage. "I am offering 35 years of experience making change," she says. Though way overstated--35 years of what? being a lawyer?--living in the White House has to have left her with some insights. Unlike Obama, Hillary wouldn't lose her way searching for the restroom. But political dynasties suck. Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton would be a sad statement. A nation of 300 million people shouldn't keep turning to the same few families for leadership.

A woman president is a couple of centuries overdue. But issues matter more than affirmative action. I couldn't overlook Clinton's votes to go to war and to waste hundreds of billions of dollars on the never-ending horror show of Iraq. Thousands of people are dead because of her.

Hillary Clinton didn't think Iraq had WMDs. No one smart did. The polls were running for the war, and so was she. She pandered. It was disgusting. But I was even more appalled by her lousy political skills. It ought to have been evident, even then, that (a) the war wouldn't go well, (b) Americans would turn against it, and (c) this would occur before she was up for reelection in 2006. It was obvious to even me at the time, and it took me ten years to get a bachelor's degree.

She was wrong. She had bad judgment. And her September 2007 vote for possible war against Iran proves she still does......

"I want the Republicans to feel the way I did in 2004," an Iowa Democrat told The New York Times. So do I. I want them to watch everything they care about disassembled. Take Reagan and Bush's names off the airports, nationalize major corporations, demolish Gitmo, gay marriage--anything that pisses them off.

I want revenge. Obama preaches reconciliation. "I will create a working majority because I won't demonize my opponents," says Obama. The Illinois senator is an interesting politician and might make a good leader. But not yet. Give me eight years of Democratic rule as ruthless and extreme and uncompromising as the last eight years of Bush. Then we can have some bipartisanship.

Obama's let's-tiptoe-through-the-tulips-with-the-GOP shtick amounts to bargaining with yourself. If a vendor at a flea market offers to sell you a lamp for $10 and you're willing to pay $8, you don't offer $8. Demonize, Barack, demonize!

Oh, and Obama says he wouldn't have voted for the Iraq War. I say he's lying. So do his votes for funding the war since he joined the Senate. His voting record on Iraq is the same as Hillary's.

Hillary, no. Obama? Nobama. What to do?






http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucru/20080212/cm_ucru/thereshouldbeblood
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommend
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ah, man. Jump on the Obama bandwagon already, it is nice and warm
Revenge is great and all, but it is loosing strategy and it is not going to happen
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, I've never been a bandwagon type of guy, 'loosing' or not.
Progressives lost their candidates way too early in this game, unfortunately.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Yeah, go with the guy who loves Republicans
Why should a liberal want to support Obama? He's the antithesis of what the Democratic Party stands for.

Stop drinking the kool aid.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Right -- because down ticket isn't a consideration
Ask yourself, OD -- who is going to drive attendance to the polls and WHERE are the policies going to be drafted and voted on before the President sees them?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. The GOP is driving attendance at the Dem polls
and, if speaking of Obama, the policies are being drafted by the corporations who control the US.
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. WOW, where are you getting your data?.?.?
I won't deny that Obama is getting a lot of gop support, but there is a lot of new voters joining our party. People who have never voted before, to diss them as being goppers is beyond the pale.

I guess you could say that the corporations will draft their policies no matter who wins the WH.






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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
84. Data comes free with the tin foil hat. n/t
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. Because he is less the antithesis than Hillary is.
He at least had the good sense to reject the DLC. Not to sign onto its Leadership Committe.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
70. What does it set loose?
Principles? Good judgment?

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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
77. I am also not into bandwagons, sorry, The Op had a good point,
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Imagine driving down the street this summer looking at streets filled with "Clinton/Peterson"
it will be too much. This Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton will turn a lot of people off and hurt participation badly.

Of course I use Peterson as a placeholder for whatever VP
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. The country is not ready for a Scandanavian Vice President
PLEASE make it not be Peterson (or at least not Colin Peterson, D-MN 7th district)
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sjdnb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. More like Scandinavians are too advanced to fit in to
such a backward, screwed up, political process (ya, I'm Norge, myself).

So, I couldn't let the comment pass with them beating most other countries year after year with regard to human rights, literacy, quality of life, valuing the family (vs 'family values'), technology (sheez, we're afraid to p*ss of corporations (FISA telecom immunity) cuz our government is too technologically backward to trust it would have access to the technology it needs - that's messed up!), support for Iraqi and other immigrants (I believe Sweden has supported the most), etc.

2007 HDI (US was 12th) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

1. Flag of Iceland Iceland 0.968 (▲ 1)
2. Flag of Norway Norway 0.968 (▼ 1)
3. Flag of Australia Australia 0.962 (▬)
4. Flag of Canada Canada 0.961 (▲ 2)
5. Flag of Ireland Ireland 0.959 (▼ 1)
6. Flag of Sweden Sweden 0.956 (▼ 1)
7. Flag of Switzerland Switzerland 0.955 (▲ 2)
8. Flag of Japan Japan 0.954 (▼ 1)
9. Flag of the Netherlands Netherlands 0.953 (▲ 1)
10. Flag of France France 0.952 (▲ 6)
11. Flag of Finland Finland 0.952 (▬)
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I'm Scandanavian myself (Norwegian, Swedish and Danish)
but I'm in Minnesota, which is overrun with Nordic sorts. :P
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Ya, you betcha, ya know!
Uff da! :toast:
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sjdnb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Yah think so now do yah?
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 10:01 PM by sjdnb
But, eh, yah could be overrun by worse, yah?
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Liberals indeed just as well be shoved under the bus--but
what is new???
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Become a republican
:hi:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Hey, it worked for Obama.
;)
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ncliberal Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Recommend! nt
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. i`m not happy with hillary because of her centerist policies
and the lack of respect for the progressives in the party. obama for raising the hope that will only be half filled.
we do know what we face from the other side. so for me it really does`t matter who wins the primary.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Obama has a very liberal record.
I still don't understand people who only look at a stump speech. Do you want to be entertained or do you want a liberal to get elected with a message that appeals beyond the 30% of the public who call themselves liberal?
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bagimin Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
67. Don't go and confuse his little point n/t
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
82. He still won't answer the "bright line" questions:


Illinois State Senator Barack Obama rejects any “suggestion” that “inclusion of my name” on a Democratic Leadership Council/New Democrats membership list amounts to “an endorsement on my part of the DLC platform.”

In a June 13 letter to The Black Commentator, the Black candidate for U.S. Senate defended his civil liberties, anti-war, and social welfare legislative record, and requested “that folks take the time to find out what my views are before they start questioning my passion for justice or the integrity of my campaign effort.”

Specifically, State Senator Obama maintains that an October 2002 anti-war speech was removed from his campaign web site because “the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips.” The speech was returned to the site following Associate Editor Bruce A. Dixon’s June 5 commentary, “In Search of the Real Barack Obama: Can a Black Senate candidate resist the DLC?” in which Mr. Dixon remarked, “Somebody else's brand of politics appears to have intruded on Obama's campaign.”

The “somebody” Dixon had in mind was, of course, the DLC/New Democrats.

Dixon, a Chicagoan currently living in Atlanta, also authored ’s June 12 Cover Story, “Muzzling the African American Agenda – with Black Help: The DLC’s corporation dollars of destruction.” Dixon traced the DLC’s founding in the mid-Eighties as a mainly southern white response to minority and union influence in the Party, to its current dominance in the party’s national structures, based largely on the DLC’s role as broker of corporate contributions to candidates and incumbents. Dixon wrote:

“The DLC's mission is to erase the last vestiges of social democracy from the Democratic Party, so that the corporate consensus will never again be challenged in the United States. Acting as a Republican Trojan Horse in the bowels of the Democratic machinery, the DLC claims the "real" party lives somewhere off to the right, where George Bush dwells, and that minorities, unionists, environmentalists, feminists, men and women of peace - virtually every branch of the party except corporatists - must be purged or muzzled.”

State Senator Obama says he “didn’t object to the DLC's inclusion of my name on their list.” That is precisely the problem, from which all suspicions reasonably flow. As we wrote in our September 19, 2002 “Trojan Horse Watch”:

“Every African American politician associated with the DLC should be considered suspect, and closely watched. There is no reason for them to be there except to make deals with the party's right wing - which believes that Gore lost the 2000 election largely because he became too closely identified with Blacks and labor.”

Rather than tiptoe around the edges of the issue, we are presenting State Sen. Obama with three “bright line” policy questions that will determine definitively if he has any good reason to belong to the DLC. But first, his letter in its entirety:

Dear Black Commentator:

I read with interest, and some amusement, Bruce Dixon's recent article regarding my campaign, and his suggestion that perhaps my positions on critical issues facing this country are somehow being corrupted by the influence of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). Given that Bruce worked together back in 1992 to empower communities through organizing and the ballot box, I wish he'd taken the time to give me a call and check out his facts.

To begin with, neither my staff nor I have had any direct contact with anybody at DLC since I began this campaign a year ago. I don't know who nominated me for the DLC list of 100 rising stars, nor did I expend any effort to be included on the list beyond filling out a three line questionnaire asking me to describe my current political office, my proudest accomplishment, and my cardinal rules of politics. Since my mother taught me not to reject a compliment when it's offered, I didn't object to the DLC's inclusion of my name on their list. I certainly did not view such inclusion as an endorsement on my part of the DLC platform.

As for Bruce's larger point -- that I've begun to water down my criticisms of the Bush administration during this early phase of my campaign -- I'd invite him to join me on the campaign trail here in Chicago for a couple of days. I'm proud of the fact that I stood up early and unequivocally in opposition to Bush's foreign policy (and was the only U.S. Senate candidate in Illinois to do so). That opposition hasn't changed, and I continue to make it a central part of each and every one of my political speeches. Likewise, I spend much of my time with audiences trying to educate them on the dangers of both the Patriot Act, Patriot Act 2, and the rest of John Ashcroft's assault on the Constitution. The only reason that my original anti-war speech was removed from my website was a judgment that the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips. The "bland" statement that Bruce offers up as an example of my loss of passion wasn't an official statement or speech at all, but a 30 second response to a specific question by Aaron Brown on CNN about the mood of Illinois voters a few days after the war started.

In sum, Bruce's article makes nice copy, but it doesn't reflect the reality of my campaign. Nor does it reflect my track record as a legislator. In the last three months alone, I passed and sent to Illinois governor's desk 25 pieces of major progressive legislation, including groundbreaking laws mandating the videotaping of all interrogations and confessions in capital cases; racial profiling legislation; a new law designed to ease the burden on ex-offenders seeking employment; and a state earned income tax credit that will put millions of dollars directly into the pockets of Illinois' working poor.

As Bruce may tell you, I've always preached the need for elected officials and candidates to be held accountable for their views. I don't exempt myself from that rule. I'd simply ask that folks take the time to find out what my views are before they start questioning my passion for justice or the integrity of my campaign effort. I'm not hard to reach.

In the meantime, I'll talk to my staff about sprucing up the website!

Sincerely,

State Senator Barack Obama

Candidate for U.S. Senate

replies

From: The Publishers of The Black Commentator

To: The Honorable Barack Obama

Dear Sen. Obama:

We appreciate your willingness to respond to Bruce Dixon’s June 5 commentary. As the publishers of , we have taken it upon ourselves to reply to your letter in order to make it clear that Dixon’s views are completely in line with our own, and to place the exchange in the context of the central question our publication has raised since its inception: What possible reason could a Black progressive have for joining the DLC?

There is no doubt that you joined of your own accord. Although you minimize the weight of your decision to be listed in the New Democrat Directory, and treat your being featured as one of the DLC’s “100 to Watch” as a simple compliment that even a mother would enjoy, we give you credit for knowing better than that. Al From and the DLC leadership are claiming you as one of their own, for their purposes. We assume that, as an intelligent man and an astute politician, you have your own reasons for linking your name with the DLC. We respect you, and take it as a given that you give a great deal of thought to such public associations.

Dixon did make several calls to your office, although he readily admits that he did not treat the matter as urgent. The fact at the heart of the story – that needs no verification – is that a Black activist/intellectual/politician with previously stellar progressive credentials has joined the main mechanism of corporate, rightwing influence in the Democratic Party. The publishers agree with Dixon that there was no need to justify the piece with a say it ain’t so telephone exercise.

Regarding the comings and goings of the October 30 anti-war speech on your campaign site: Collectively, the publishers of have been in the news business about two-thirds of a century. We are fully aware that campaign sites and literature feature those items that the candidate and his handlers choose to highlight. Placement is reflective of the candidate’s campaign posture, and the subject of intense staff discussion. That’s political journalism 101, not tealeaves. As Bruce Dixon remarked in his response to one of your supporters (“…you Obama basher!“) in ’s June 12 e-Mailbox column, we were “happy” to discover that the truly rousing speech had been restored to the site. “We think this is good news and hope that it still reflects candidate Obama's views,” said Dixon. He looked forward to seeing the text of speeches on the Patriot Act, “secret detentions, summary deportations and the like” featured on the site, especially in light of your renown as a professor of constitutional law.

In your letter, you write that you often speak to audiences on “the dangers of both the Patriot Act, Patriot Act 2, and the rest of John Ashcroft's assault on the Constitution.” We do not doubt that this is true. However, as veteran political observers we also know that the candidate’s most carefully crafted public persona is reflected in his literature. If it’s not on the site, then experience tells us that the campaign is downplaying the issue.

You should be neither “surprised” nor “amused” that a progressive Black publication puts you, a former “top notch, progressive political organizer,” under scrutiny. You have joined the DLC! What else could you have possibly expected?

Rather than dither on the periphery of the matter, we are posing three “bright line” questions to you, that should determine whether you belong in the DLC, or not:

1. Do you favor the withdrawal of the United States from NAFTA? Will you in the Senate introduce or sponsor legislation toward that end?

2. Do you favor the adoption of a single payer system of universal health care to extend the availability of quality health care to all persons in this country? Will you in the Senate introduce or sponsor legislation toward that end?

3. Would you have voted against the October 10 congressional resolution allowing the president to use unilateral force against Iraq?

We believe you are likely to answer, “Yes” to all three of these questions. If that is true, you favor positions that are anathema to the leadership of the Democratic Leadership Council, and have misplaced yourself.

We call these “bright line” questions because DLC leadership has been unequivocal in their support of NAFTA, opposition to anything resembling national health insurance, and fervently in support of the Iraq war – basic issues of war and peace, life and death, and livelihood.

NAFTA:

The DLC was the principal voice inside the Democratic Party advocating the North American Free Trade Agreement, which led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs. A majority of Democrats opposed DLCer Bill Clinton’s treaty in 1993. The DLC minority joined with Republicans, insisting that “NAFTA will create jobs…” (New Democrats Online, September 13, 1993) and would not “…substantially alter the existing rules of investment for U.S. companies seeking to lower their costs with cheap labor” (NDOL, October 1, 1993).

Unrepentant, the Democratic Leadership Council has been unmoved by the spectacle of corporations extorting zoning, tax, pollution and regulatory breaks from their host communities and gutting wages, benefits and pensions of US workers under the threat of relocation. As recently as last year the DLC continued to champion “fast track” authority for a Republican president, and objected strenuously to even the tiniest weakening (see American Prospect, July 2002) of NAFTA’s infamous Chapter 11, which lets corporations invalidate union contracts or the zoning, banking, wage and hour, safety or environmental regulations of any state or country it deems “inconsistent with free trade” in secret international courts where the public is not represented.

Universal health insurance/care:

The Democratic Leadership Council unequivocally opposes anything that smells like a national health insurance plan, let alone single payer. Here’s what DLC founder and chief honcho Al From thinks of Rep. Dick Gephardt’s proposal to let private insurers extend health care coverage to everyone, financed by federal tax credits:

"Every primary season unleashes the pander virus. Dick Gephardt's $2.5-trillion health care plan is the latest case in point. While Gephardt is right to base his candidacy on 'big ideas,' his health plan only underscores the folly of appealing to Democratic activists instead of the Democratic rank-and-file. When activists think big, they always do so with the rank-and-file's money."

notes with approval your sponsorship of the Bernardin Amendment in the Illinois Senate. Authored by Dr. Quentin Young of Physicians for a National Health Care Plan, and Illinois Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn, the legislation would enshrine a constitutional right to quality health care for everyone in that state. Needless to say the amendment has yet to pass.

We imagine that you’d want to advance the same goal in the U.S. Senate. Should you do so – or support any form of national health insurance – you will then become an object of scorn to the DLC, as a vector of “the pander virus.”

Iraq resolution:

In the April 15 issue of the DLC house organ Blueprints, DLC founder Al From starts off likening the arguments of antiwar Democrats to what he calls the “blatantly anti-American sentiments of student radicals and the hard left” of the Vietnam era, and warns Democrats that they will suffer “guilt-by-failure-to-disassociate” with such types. He next endorses the president’s illegal war and occupation of Iraq and summons Democrats to do the same:

“Democrats must overcome both their own and the opposition's partisan instincts…. The president's decision to prosecute this war without explicit authorization from the United Nations was a close call, but it was the right call.”

This is the company you have chosen to keep. The DLC will gather hundreds of “New Democrats” for display at its “National Conversation” in Philadelphia, July 19. You are among the DLC’s “100 to Watch” in 2003. They are doubtless expecting you.

Your record gives no indication that you are compatible with this “Mother of All Trojan Horses” inside the Democratic Party, as Bruce Dixon puts it. Early in your letter, you say that you did not “expend any effort to be included on the list beyond filling out a three line questionnaire asking me to describe my current political office, my proudest accomplishment, and my cardinal rules of politics.” This is quite a different DLC affiliation process than the one described by Robert Dreyfuss in his American Prospect article:

To ensure that liberals don't slip through the cracks, NDN requires each politician who seeks entree to its largesse and contacts to fill out a questionnaire that asks his or her views on trade, economics, education, welfare reform, and other issues. The questions are detailed, forcing candidates to state clearly whether or not they support views associated with the New Democrat Coalition, and it concludes by asking, "Will you join the NDC when you come to Congress?" Next, interviews each candidate, and then NDN determines which candidacies are viable before providing

Trusting your word and knowing Dreyfuss to be a very good reporter, we must conclude that Al From and his crew value your presence in the DLC very highly, and therefore spared you the full corporate shakeout. Apparently, they were quite eager to recruit a Black progressive willing to step across some very “bright lines” to adorn the literature of an organization that opposes his own core political positions.

Should you answer our questions on NAFTA, universal health care and the Iraq war in the affirmative, there is no honorable option available to you but to publicly withdraw from the DLC.

We respectfully await your reply

- The Publishers of The Black Commentator

http://www.blackcommentator.com/47/47_cover.html

And his own website lists a dismal approach to our energy problems and the issue of climate change (which could easily make every other issue insignificant very quickly).
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. I believe that with Obama we may not be under the bus
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:10 PM by Zodiak Ironfist
That "inclusiveness" that he describes goes both ways. IF the pukes get a spot at the table, so do progressives.

With the other candidate, I know they will demonize the left....that's what that candidate's political allies have been doing ever since Reagan.

You must vote your conscience, though. I know that my present vote is hope and compromise, but that is all I am left with. My closest candidate is gone as are all of my compromise candidates save one. If the other candidate gets the nomination, then no sale for me.

I voting to have someone to vote for.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. I have a fellow Edwards Democrat here vying to unseat a career (R) in the house
I am going with Obama's coattails in the hopes that we SWEEP the damn house and senate, boot out the Pelosi/Reid "leadership" and start passing uncontested progressive legislation.

I believe it is more strategic to ride the wave with Mr. Bottom Up than Ms. Top Down as it is the congress that is going to make this happen.

:patriot:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well, that is a great point.
A Congress that actually functions with Democrats who act like Democrats would be refreshing.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Bluebear, that was the only thing that brought me out of my
JRE depression. I thought of Bruce Slater going up against that S-CHIP vetoing dinosaur and my decision was made for me.

I think Obama can get the bodies into the polls and question if Hillary can generate the same enthusiasm in November once the primary frenzy is over and the mind numbing GE blather begins.

Best to you. :hi:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
90. Funny how we shared a brain on Edwards
And now share a brain on Obama.

He has given a few indications that he is,as you say, indeed a Mr Bottom Up - and as hope springs eternal, I will continue to hope that we don't get fooled again.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm for a candidate who seeks to unite the american people (not parties) around their shared goals
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:16 PM by Political Heretic
Obama combines policy proposals I support - sixty four pages of detail about them, which I have read - with a message that it is time for the American PEOPLE - not the political parties - to remember their commonality and shared purposes once again.

When you strip away all the political spin, and the partisan entrenchment, the people of the United States actually SHARE many core beliefs and expectations for their government.

A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that we have a health care crisis.

A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that this war was either ill-advised or ill-executed or both, and that it is hurting us economically, hurting us diplomatically and that its time we brought it to a close.

A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that massive out of control spending and deficits combined with legal exemptions allowing multi-billion dollar corporations to pay less in taxes than a middle-class family is a failure of our system - regardless of what they think about higher or lower taxes in general or about the spending priorities of washington.

A majority of ordinary people across both sides of the isle feel that the protection of constitutional rights for American Citizens matter, and that accountability in government is tragically missing.

The disconnect is between the polarizing propaganda of beltway politicians and the establishment media consistently bombarding the airwaves speaking for the American people and telling them what they believe. While reseach consistently indicates that when partisan rhetoric is stripped away, the American people are overwhelmingly in favor of a richer, progressive more community oriented America.

It is time for a leader who will unite ordinary people across political divides around these common goals. That message of unity is not some secret scheme. It is the vision for a better tomorrow.

I'm also tired of DUers who believe that PEOPLE are the enemy and aren't looking for a better way for all ordinary Americans but rather would be happiest if any ordinary Americans with an (R) after their name - for whatever reason, were eliminated. I'm not for hate. And I'm not for the perpetuation of the myth that ordinary Americans can't work together - even with certain disagreements - toward a better society. And I'm angry at politicians on BOTH sides who perpetuate that message.

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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. what ph said.
the divisions are why we are screwed. we lose as long as we buy into the fight. it is a better way. and he can make it work.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Great post, thank you
also, by Obama doing an end run around the divisive politics and uniting the "average American" the people will vote in a congress that will work FOR us not for political partisan BS that does none of us any good. It will also send a STFU to RW talk radio that is divisive as well.

The last thing we need is the hate and revenge type of leadership, it cannot hurt one side, or segment, without hurting everyone...I think we have hurt enough.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. I hear ya
I know I endorsed ol' what's-his-name last night, but I hear ya.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. That's me. Woman without a candidate.
Left out in the cold.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. "THERE SHOULD BE BLOOD" ? "I want revenge" ? Yeah, GREAT FREAKIN POST...NOT
This is exactly what we DON'T NEED.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well pardon the freak out of me. And I'm just betting you didn't read a word.
:eyes:
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. its the old politics of hate and fear
last thing we want to vote into place AGAIN.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yeah, that's me, full of hate. And fear. PS, when you stop writing in cliches, do stop back!
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:25 PM by Bluebear
:hi:
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Please read this Bluebear
I hate self recs but please read this and no matter what happens help us in the fight!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4546902

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Oh, I am way ahead of you
I saw that great post and recommended it.

As you can see, there is no room even to discuss things anymore, when anybody who has a different voice is automatically labeled a "hater", etc. Of course I will vote for the nominee, I am a Democrat. I just wish we had a progressive still in the race :)
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
85. Obama wasn't my first choice
He really wasn't, and thanks for the rec btw :D

But I do think that he is very progressive on a lot of important issues. And what's more if he can change the dynamic of this country (much as I hate to say it) like Reagan did then we have a better chance at an even more progressive country and slate of candidates moving forward. This is the HOPE that he brings to me.

I think he has real potential to change the debate for years to come!
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
78. The politics of hate? Like what people are directing at people who don't support Obama?
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. I'm out here with you, worried about health insurance
and the next heat bill. I have no idea what this theater is supposed to do for those of us who are struggling.

At the very least, there can be no change without accountability and justice. Revenge, no, it's not about that for me. But justice -- oh yes, there can be no change without justice. And I pay attention when politicians don't seem to care for justice.

If politicians won't hold the Bush regime accountable, what will they do with corruption and crime the next time around?
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. For those not reading
2 short paragraphs:


"I want the Republicans to feel the way I did in 2004," an Iowa Democrat told The New York Times. So do I. I want them to watch everything they care about disassembled. Take Reagan and Bush's names off the airports, nationalize major corporations, demolish Gitmo, gay marriage--anything that pisses them off.

I want revenge. Obama preaches reconciliation. "I will create a working majority because I won't demonize my opponents," says Obama. The Illinois senator is an interesting politician and might make a good leader. But not yet. Give me eight years of Democratic rule as ruthless and extreme and uncompromising as the last eight years of Bush. Then we can have some bipartisanship.



Hell yes! I want it!!
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ok, twist my arm. About John Edwards:

"... Less noted but no less significant has been the effect of John Edwards' departure from the Democratic field.

Lefties don't have a candidate.

Like most hardcore liberals, I had planned to vote for Edwards. I'm a registered Democrat. I live in New York, a "closed primary" state. That left Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.



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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. Obama VA: liberal - 58%, very liberal - 62%, somewhat liberal - 56%, moderate - 65%
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sink the DLC.
We'll worry about the rest later.
People tend to rise to the occasion.

Sometimes, heroes are made, not born,
and he will not serve alone.

The progressive democrats will be
behind him.

He is our best shot right now.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Obama is worse than the DLC
He's 100% owned by corporate interests. Take a look at his voting record.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. PUhleeze.
That is pure hyperbole.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. That's complete BS!
Video: Edwards, Clinton, and Obama debate about Lobbyist

______________________________

Video: John Edwards on Countdown with Keith Olberman: 1-4-08

"The two change candidates won and the status quo was rejected."

"Senator Obama is a change candidate by any measure."

"Between the three of us, I think the most important thing is that we nominate a candidate, and I think it's either myself or Senator Obama, who will actually fight for the change that we need."

______________________________

The Edwards aide added that Obama's lack of a health care plan with a "mandate" is a "tough hurdle for him to get over." He added, however, that Edwards is much more in line with Obama on other issues.

link


And Obama has the best health care plan.


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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
61. I don't base my opinion on speeches
but on action and record of voting or not voting.

Obama's protection of the nuclear power industry at the expense of public safety is a real problem, definitely not something a liberal would do.

His health care plan is a sop for private insurance and pharma companies. His ties to lobbyists for companies that work against the interests of middle class people is not commendable.

I don't feel the need to overlook a poor record on policy just to be part of the in crowd with the cool candidate of the moment.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I have and his voting record is more liberal than anyone who ran this year
other than Kucinich.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. Your opinion
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:27 PM by OzarkDem
not mine.

I suppose his strong record of "liberalism" is attracting all the GOP voters. Please.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
38. When liberals bail from the Party in droves, what do you expect?
Do what Thom Hartmann says: join and INFILTRATE.

NGU.


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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. I hate to be the one to tell you this...
...but the hard-core liberal wing of the Dem party is about the same size as the hard core conservative wing of the Republican party.

Both groups continually complain about the main stream media, are convinced that the other party is dominated by extremists, want to radically alter the system of government and hold public executions of people they don't like. The majority of Americans are moderates who are willing to go along to get along and find wild-eyed idealists (left OR right) slightly creepy and strange.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. So, most democrats are willing to compromise about healthcare? getting out of Iraq? Gay rights?
Building a fence? Reproductive freedom? Do you really believe that?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. :crickets:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. What views would those be that are so creepy & strange, enlighten us.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Oh please. Get off your high horse and read some Lakoff.
If you do, you'll realize there's no such thing as a "wild-eyed idealist" other than the cartoon caricature in your imagination. We're ALL wild-eyed idealists about one thing or another, and the fact that others are wild about different things than you are doesn't give you the right to marginalize them.

We're a party of diverse wild-eyed idealists, and that's how we like it.

NGU.


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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. What's extremist about single payer, about lowering the defense budget
so we can pay to run our country, about holding power accountable for crimes, about respecting GLBT civil rights, about limiting the power of corporations to run the country? These are all sane, sensible issues. I consider anyone who things they're creepy or strange the extremist.

OTOH, I fully expect the front row seats underneath the bus to begin filling up.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. :crickets:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
64. That is what conservative Democrats want you to believe.
Don't believe it for a minute.
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Lex Talionis Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
89.  KUDOS! to you anigbrowl. BRAVO!
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 07:19 PM by Lex Talionis
I don't know how to make that the greatest statement of fact every uttered, but if I could I would. We. Want. A. Change. How come people who are themselves, more enlightened, more intelligent, who gave us the internet, and are way more in tune with mother nature, than us, poor ignorant,easily mislead, uneducated, unwashed, racist, stupid, warmongering, people, Not see that? You have made my day. GO BO!



disclaimer: this message was for angibrowl only. So any other parties who may "see" themselves in the above message,its not you.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. Perfect.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:58 PM by Blue_In_AK
My feelings exactly. Hillary, of course, is complicit in the jam we find ourselves in, and I really have very little faith in her, but does anybody really think that Obama will do anything significant to hold the Republicans/corporatists accountable for the crimes of the past eight years (actually, much longer than that) when he is so busy currying their favor?

I just don't see any real justice coming out of this with either of these candidates. Sure, maybe things will seem superficially better for a time, at last until the honeymoon is over, but without legal consequences, the perps will just retreat to the sidelines and regroup to re-emerge in four or eight years more virulent than ever. We've been fighting these people ever since the Nixon days (at least), and they just keep coming back and back and back, like some kind of zombie that you can't kill. I have little faith. I can't get starry-eyed. My days as a "hoper" and "dreamer" are over.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
44. Go vote for Nader then
and leave.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Well ain't that a heartwarming piece of discussion? PS --- *YOU* leave.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:09 PM by Bluebear
I pay my rent around here.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
46. Why can't we just say, these are two great candidates and I support this one over the other....
This is about tearing down the Republican party, not destroying ourselves.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Hello, did you even read the article?
It's EXACTLY about tearing down the Republican party and not compromising what we stand for.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. The article is a hit-piece on Clinton
It talks only about negatives and doesn't mention ANYTTHING about positives, i.e., healthcare, women's rights, a career battling Republicans at the highest levels, etc etc. Hillary's resume is long and distinguished, why tear her down, reminds me of a 1998 Republican. BTW, I'm leaning to Obama, I think both candidates are great.

I think you don't see that we're all in this together and sniping at Democrats doesn't really help us AT ALL.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Oh let me up, you did not even read the article. "Hit piece on Clinton" indeed.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:15 PM by Bluebear
That's the problem here, people treat it like a graffiti wall. The article takes on both candidates equally. You read a sentence or two and thought you understood the whole thing.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
54. If the haters get what they want, it will be 1972 or 1984 all over again
Do any of you "THERE SHOULD BE BLOOD" types even remember what that felt like? To look at that map and know in your heart that a corrupt bastard like Nixon or a clueless dunce like Reagan had just pinned 49 states to their belts? And why? There were many complex factors, of course, but one of the driving ones was just the type of mentality expressed in the OP: the message that not just were our opponents wrong on the issues, but also dumb, unsophisticated rubes who deserved to have their noses rubbed in it, the not-so-subtle message that "THERE SHOULD BE BLOOD".

But go right ahead and keep patting yourselves on the back for what noble vengeance warriors you are; let's just all hope that you don't get to set the tone for the Democratic side of the 2008 election, or it's going to President McCain in a walk.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. A) "Haters" is a really, really stupid word to use in this discussion.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:27 PM by Bluebear
"Hater" is for 14 year olds. Please don't confuse lack of enthusiasm for "hate". Thank you. And

B) The article bemoans the fact that neither candidate remaining is very progressive. And that gives progressive people pause.

When a candidate has to rely on "ex-gay" preachers speaking at their events, for example, to get "Christian" votes, color me unenthused.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. A. I think both candidates are quite progressive, so this business about
their candidacies "gives progressive people pause" is wrong in at least my instance, and I'm sure many, many more.

B. Any article where the author says he/she wants to do "anything to piss" a significant part of the electorate off, is authored by someone quite angry. Use whatever descriptive word you wish, and I'll do likewise, thank you very much. Give me a break: if Rush Limbaugh or the Hannity moron had read this same rant but from the other side of the spectrum I have a pretty good feeling your voice would be one of many railing about what "haters" they were - and you'd be right.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Ted Rall (the author) is no Rush Limbaugh or Hannity,
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:40 PM by Bluebear
And no, I have never used the term "hater".
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
55. Dupe/double post deleted.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:20 PM by apocalypsehow
Don't know how that happened. :shrug:
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
56. I really understand the author's feelings of not being ready to "make nice."
It's something I've almost completely reconciled. But I'm still pissed at the Republican Congress that enabled Bush's destruction of our nation. I'm pissed at the Republicans that voted for Bush. I'm pissed at the Blue Dogs; I'm pissed at Pelosi and Reid and I think a lot of citizens are pissed off too.

I've been pissed since 2000. But I have to be practical too. I'm thinking about electing a true Democratic congress that's going to pass single-payer health care reform. I'm thinking about telling Lieberman to kiss our collective a$$ and getting hate crime legislation introduced and passed. We need sweeping changes, but the president only signs the bills and so I'm going with someone that I think can help us get more true progressives elected and who isn't so beholden to corporate entities that they won't sign legislation that will regulate or penalize their benefactors.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
60. I'm all a-twitter to see what "moderates" a POTUS Obama would nominate for the Supreme Court.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:29 PM by Straight Shooter
Considering as how all those Repubs and Indies are the ones that are going to waltz him into office, he'll owe them. They'll make sure he's going to "dance with the one that brung him."

I haven't seen anything about what specific individuals he might consider appointing to the Supreme Court. That's the only thing that matters to me, because that's where the decisions are ultimately made that affect us. The lower on the rungs of society, the greater the impact of USSC decisions. Does he even speak of who is going to be in his cabinet? I've heard bipartisanship. Like who? Moderates, or foaming-at-the-mouth John Boehner types just to pacify the GOP? Or is it all just a trick, he doesn't intend to do anything with the Repubs if he's elected.

Don't see how he can deal with the GOP. They never settle for less than everything they want. It's in their nature.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
75. He's painted himself into a corner
His talk of bipartisanship and reaching across the aisle has given the right wing the ammunition it needs should he fail to actually follow through and compromise on issues. Obama supporters keep saying that he's fooling the voters into thinking they are voting for someone who is moderate and that he will pull the bait and switch once in office- yet they ignore the resentment those conservative voters would have for him if he ignores them.

Obama is fairly moderate to begin with, but his rhetoric and wooing of conservatives have made certain that his administration would not be anything revolutionary. If he should win the nomination and in November (I doubt the latter, for either really), he has essentially guaranteed that he'll be a 1 term wonder without the compassionate crusades a la Carter.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
71. Do you have any idea how many democrats voted against the war and then voted to fund it?
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MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
72. Amen to that
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
74. It's a good article
thank you for the link to it :)
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
76. What happens when a baby pit bull bites and you don't reprimand it?
It grows up into a big pit bull and it eats your neighbor. Only your neighbor is your constituency. And the constituency is us. And the pit bull isn't a baby anymore.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
79. Maybe it's time for
a THIRD PARTY...we could call it The Community Party. Guess that might get confused with Communist. How about the Working Party. Or the Party that Works. Whatever.

I just can't believe that I have put up with this horrid W for 7 years....never mind that I lived thru Watergate (and now I think those were the good ol' days), Reagan (the beginning of the end of the US of A as I knew it), Poppy Bush, the Best Republican President ever..Clinton, and now this fascist asshole.

I worked so hard in '06..canvassing in the rain, dog bites, nearly attacked....for what? Massive diasppointment.

And now the '08 Election...I believe that if HRC were a man and had been married to say a women Senator or Governor, she/he would the nominee. But she's a woman and was married to the Best Republican President we've ever had. And now BO who wants to reconcile with these vile Repugnants who have NEVER crossed the aisle. I see millions of hearts broken if he wins. Mine won't be. And if he doesnt' beat McCain, then what? The Democratic Party will be done.

Maybe a state like Vermont will secede and I'll have a place to go. Are the Lakotas opening up their reservation? America no longer feels like my home anymore.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
80. He hit the nail on the head for me
I sure wish that I could say otherwise. ;(

Ah well, maybe there will be some local politicians that I can enthusiastically endorse and volunteer for this year.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
81. well I am not going bowling with you
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
83. Look. If you don't suck up to the corporate military industrial complex, you aren't a frontrunner
Period. We may be yet be able to meld old-fashioned ward heeler personal politics (shitcanning the no newbies allowed sign on the clubhouse door, of course) with the Internet and the new media to do an end run around this situation, but we aren't there yet.

The health care activist in me sez that Clinton has a slight edge on that issue, and the party organizer has noticed that Obama is bringing in a lot of new people. I'm thinking that the party organizer has the edge, but I still don't like the choices.
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PerpetuallyDazed Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
86. I've been feeling the same way.
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 12:00 PM by PerpetuallyDazed
"I want the Republicans to feel the way I did in 2004"... I want REVENGE. (On edit: maybe "JUSTICE" is a better adjective in this case. And no, it is not simply a "want", but a justifiable recourse that America DESERVES.)

I want the insanity to END, and it surely ain't gonna happen with either Barack-"Lets Sing Kumbaya"-Obama or Repub-lite Hillary Clinton.

Let's try something new this time around, shall we? I'm still voting for Edwards in my primary :)
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
87. Ah, that old chestnut.
Obama opposed the war from the start. Period. No amount of rationalization can convince folks that actually starting the war vis a vis the IWR is anywhere in the ballpark of mitigated by funding. The expectation that it is is simply absurd.

Plus Obama was deemed the most liberal Senator in 2007.
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Next.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
88. Yes, that would be me.
I can probably count on one hand the number
of representatives or officials who represent
me..

.. meaning I am virtually unrepresented in
this country.

Also, I think the terms red and blue should
go. This is now a one-party, corporofascist
state.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. I'm curious. Why do you think that your representatives should mirror your views
Are your views the majority (not plurality) views in your Congressional district or state? And if they are, how did your unrepresentative representative or unrepresentative senator manage to get elected?
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