jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:29 PM
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Count me as another Edwardian for Hillary |
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On policy there is not much of a difference between the two. They both will bring change. They both are good Democrats. But if in the end if we lose in November none of this matters. We must take the White House back. If Romney were the nominee perhaps Obama would be a better candidate against the rethugs. However, we will face McCain. McCain's strength is security. Folks still fear another terrorist attack, or even a wave of terror. If we can't clear the security thereshold we can't win. No one cares about how great your speeches are if they believe you can't prevent thugs from flying planes in American buildings. Hillary Clinton neutralizes McCain on security and beats him on domestic issues. Obama would be the least experienced nominee in at least a century and arguably ever. He will get eaten alive on security by McCain. If Kerry couldn't match Bush on security there is no way in hell Obama can match McCain.
There is a lot of talk about "change." Hillary brings basically every "change" the "agent of change" brings. Choosing between the two is not about change, unless you are so superficial you think "Obama" is a meaningful change over the name "Clinton."
On policy where they differ I am attracted to Hillary's trade positions. It is one thing which drew me to Edwards. Hillary and Obama are both "free" traders. However, Hillary is marginally better. Hillary will review all trade agreements to see if they are working for the people. Obama will review only NAFTA. Hillary will also have a time-out on trade agreements, a long sought labor goal. They also differ on meeting with foreign leaders. Both are willing to open discussions with all foreign countries. Obama's goes about it in a naive way. The rethugs will run numerous ads about him wanting to play poker with Ahmedinijad, further damaging Obama's security credentials (him not voting on the 9/11 commission recommendation implementation act is another major self-inflicted blow on security from Obama).
I went back and read Obama's book again after Edwards dropped out. The policy in the book is Democratic boilerplate. There isn't anything in there that is revolutionary. I don't see there was so much hoopla about it. Well, I do know, but...He seems obsessed with working with the rethugs. His central assumption is everyone has the same goals and if we only talked to them, held their hands long enough, they would suddenly see the light and adopt the Democratic agenda. That is fantasy. Obamites will say, well, that isn't what he means. He is only talking about uniting Americans, not the parties. As our history shows you can't unite the people without uniting the parties! The few times in the 18th and early 19th centuries we had real unity in the country were not coincidentally when we had only one national party (Federalists first, then the Democrats during the "era of Good Feelings" and to a lesser extent during the Age of Jackson) . Parties naturally clash. Parties have followers. They will push their followers to disagreement. Even FDR never won more than 61% of the vote. Obama's view also ignores the fact there are fundamental ideological disagreements between the parties. You can't triangulate them away.
All this is not to say Obama sucks. He would make a good president and if he wins I will happily support him. He has a great plan to open up government and I hope he pushes it in the Senate. However, he is not the right candidate for our time. If this were 2000 I may have supported him. I hope Hillary wins and then Obama would make a good candidate in 2016. Hillary has proven she is tough enough to take on the rethugs. The Clintons have a great record against the rethugs (something like 10-1). She knows what it will take to get things done in Washington. Hillary Clinton. Ready to change. Ready to lead. Ready to win.
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AX10
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:31 PM
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1. I see you changed your avatar! Welcome aboard. |
zabet
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:32 PM
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Thrill
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:33 PM
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3. Edwards would be ashamed of you. Supporting the Corporate Candidate |
MonkeyFunk
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:34 PM
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aquarius dawning
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:36 PM
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8. I notice he hasn't come out and endorsed Obama yet. I don't think he would be ashamed at all. |
jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
9. They both are equally corporate |
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How do you think Obama has been raising $1 million a day since he became the front runner? He was always competitive with the corporations with Hillary and him being 1-2 in almost all corporate categories--of candidates in both parties. Part of his fund raising surge logically is because a lot of corporations want to get on the winning bandwagon.
Brent, you have a Clark avatar. He supports Hillary. Is Clark a sellout too? Look, Hillary is not as bad as folks on the blogosphere make her out to be. I have never understood why the same folks who support Obama or like him vilify Hillary for having the same traits.
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burythehatchet
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
19. I think you got your pages numbered all wrong.n/t |
Straight Shooter
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
29. Edwards would be proud. jackson_dem has a great grasp of history and politics. |
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I always click on his threads because I know I won't be reading nonsensical narratives and hyperbole, but I'll actually learn something. I was just speaking to a friend this evening about some of my favorite DU'ers, and jackson_dem was included in that group.
And he never belittles others, but always retaliates fairly when it's called for.
Win or lose, I am lucky to be in the same group of Hillary supporters as those with the calibre of jackson_dem, maddiejoan, Tom Rinaldo, mtnsnake, Maddy McCall, BlackVelvet, and numerous other fine DU'ers.
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goodgd_yall
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
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Edwards isn't god. Jackson has his own conscience and mind to make up. Who the hell cares what John Edwards would think of his choice?
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LakeSamish706
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message |
4. One thing that must be said though is that McCain is a War Monger.... |
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He would be no different than what is currently occupying the WH now. This must get pushed big time in the weeks and months to come. His talk about keeping our military in Iraq for the next 100 years is certainly something that the American people do not want.
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jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:38 PM
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10. Yup. We need to start spreading the truth about McCain at the grassroots level |
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I like how Hillary framed McCain as four more years of Bush in a speech a couple days ago. That is what we all should push. On ALL fundamental issues McCain sides with Bush. Don't be fooled by the msm's love for McCain. Yes, he disagrees with his party now and then but so does every politician. He is a real conservative and he agrees with all the fundamental tenets of the rethug ideology, i.e. warmonger, trickle-down economics, no social justice, etc.
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spooky3
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
12. Former Gov. (of MD) Ehrlich handed the Dem. nominee plenty of |
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ammunition on MSNBC tonight--completely agreed with you. "McCain is really conservative"; "if you look at his record, it can't be viewed any other way"; etc., or words to that effect.
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Little Star
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message |
5. Welcome aboard! I agree with everything you wrote. |
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It ain't over till it's over! Never underestimate a woman! GOMAMA!!!!
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aquarius dawning
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message |
6. I just sent her another $50.00. That puts me over $600.00. |
emilyg
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
aquarius dawning
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
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She may lose. I can accept that. But I'm not giving up until she does.
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rhett o rick
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
16. Why don't you send John McCain some too. Sen Clinton failed us again by not voting |
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against immunity for Bush, Cheney and the telecoms. How many times does she have to support Bush before you get it?
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aquarius dawning
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
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That you suck? Just kidding. But seriously, I'm more concerned about the economy than this telecom thing.
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rhett o rick
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Wed Feb-13-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
49. I understand concern with the economy. But I think that if we don't reestablish |
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the rule of law chaos will prevail. If we allow the corporations to run our government you can kiss our economy goodbye.
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rhett o rick
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Wed Feb-13-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
50. And by the way, sorry for my nasty post above i was tired and of course frustrated. nm |
Kahuna
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:47 PM by Kahuna
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rhett o rick
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message |
14. Sen Clinton failed us again by not voting to eliminate retroactive immunity for |
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Bush, Cheney and the telecoms. WTF, over. How many times does she side with Bush before some people get it??
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woolldog
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:51 PM
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15. This is hardly surprising. |
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You've been bashing Obama since I started posting here.
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Eurobabe
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
22. that's why there is an ignore user button |
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but unfortunately at DefCon2, all ignored users come out of the woodwork again. :puke:
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woolldog
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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Ok I was wondering why I was seeing this guy's posts. :argh:
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OzarkDem
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message |
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I've already talked with some of the local elected officials and will volunteer to help her here in Ohio.
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goldcanyonaz
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
20. Thank you Ozark, you have been a very bright light on this forum for me. |
OzarkDem
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
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Its been a little crazy in here, but we've been through these races so many times and have seen all the dirty GOP tricks. They don't bother me as much as they used to.
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robbedvoter
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:54 PM
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Canuckistanian
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:57 PM
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21. I think the stats are completely misleading |
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When you hear a poll about "McCain vs. Clinton" or "McCain vs. Obama", you've GOT to factor in in the HUGE difference disparity in Republican vs. Democrat primary turnout numbers.
WhoEVER wins the Dem nomination is going to SLAUGHTER the Repub.
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aquarius dawning
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
40. There are numerous ways to interpret those numbers. |
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It seems pretty obvious to me actually but then again, I'm not hoplessly audacious.
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jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
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And I looked at that too. Obama runs 4-5 points better than Hillary. That is after Hillary has been vilified by the msm for 16 years. Obama has not had a single negative ad run against him and has had the msm on his side for three years. Once the msm turns against him and the rethugs go after him he will lose ground, if nominated, just like Bush (11 point swing in favor of Gore) and Kerry (11 point swing in favor of Bush) did after having big leads at this time in 2000 and 2004. If Obama does the same he will lose by 7-8 points. Another Dukakis.
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GCP
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Tue Feb-12-08 09:59 PM
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I couldn't have put it better myself.
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Kermitt Gribble
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:01 PM
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Tennessee Gal
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:03 PM
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I know this has not been an easy decision for you. Your post represents a thoughtful and informed process, one that was not taken lightly. I congratulate you on your decision.
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stevietheman
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:04 PM
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27. You already made this clear days ago... you don't get a do-over. |
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Get used to PRESIDENT OBAMA.
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sandnsea
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message |
30. lol, there was never a chance you'd go Obama |
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And yes you would say Obama sucks if you thought it would get you any attention.
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jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
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Because we talked about it. I asked her why she switched to Hillary and shared my concerns about both candidates with her.
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qwlauren35
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message |
32. The Democratic Primary Voter base... |
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seems to be disagreeing on who the preferred candidate is...
But I do understand what you are saying. IF Obama gets the nod, he is going to need to strengthen his position on security, and do it very, very soon.
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jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
36. Democrats prefer Hillary. Indies and rethugs are giving Obama his slim lead |
Maribelle
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message |
33. So, is this your final answer? |
sniffa
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message |
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as shocked as I always am when a stealth Hillary support........ er, I mean insert candidate supporter comes out of the closet as a Hillary supporter. :hug:
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jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
39. How'd you figure it out? |
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I researched Edwards' record and fought the swiftboating of him all to fool folks into believing I was an Edward's supporter!
:eyes:
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sniffa
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
jackson_dem
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
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What would be the motivation for such a stupid ruse on a website?
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Raine
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Tue Feb-12-08 10:18 PM
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37. As a fellow Edward's supporter |
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I'm sorry that you went that way but each to their own.
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Hoof Hearted
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:20 PM
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44. Thanks Jackson for your thoughtful post. |
Danger Mouse
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:26 PM
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45. Hm. Disagree, but it's your choice... |
jasonkrueger
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message |
46. I ask you to reconsider |
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Please don't forget that Hillary voted to give Bush authorization to go to war in Iraq. Obama has the edge in that department.
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judaspriestess
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Tue Feb-12-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message |
47. I switched to Hillary after John left the race |
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Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:30 PM by judaspriestess
and I damn proud I did :)
But I won't change my avatar, I love my Spurs to much.
on edit: I still have my John Edwards yard sign out though. I refuse to take it down.
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aquarius dawning
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Wed Feb-13-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message |
51. I Just sent her another $50.00. Anyone care to match me? |
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YOUR CONTRIBUTION RECEIPT: DATE: February 13, 2008 7:35 PM ESTNAME: ADDRESS: AMOUNT: $50.00
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mtnsnake
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Wed Feb-13-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message |
52. jackson_dem, you are truly an asset to DU |
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and this is just one more post of many that proves it, regardless of who you choose to support :thumbsup:
I have always loved reading your stuff. Welcome aboard the Goddess of Peace's bandwagon!
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