What I don't get .... Obama converts

[sjdnb]

I am a very logical person, most of the time.

And, when I read stuff that indicates Obama converts think another candidate might be 'more experienced, knowledgeable and better qualified', but they've gotten caught up in the excitement, enthusiasm, and feeling that Obama is a 'good guy' and are now supporting him - I just don't get it.

Emotions are great and all, but I reserve them for dealing with family and friends - not how I choose who I will support to lead a nation.

Hey, I think he's likable enough, his heart is in the right place, he gives great speeches, and is inspirational - but, that sounds more like qualifications for a preacher. Further, I have concerns.

BTW - don't send me links to his site or any others so I can read more. I've been online since veronica and gopher, I know how to find objective, verifiable, information.

[Redstone]

1. So don't vote for him. You have that option.

Redstone

[AX10]

3. I may not.

[chascarrillo]

16. You've already said you won't vote for Obama if he's nominated,

Interesting.

[DJ13]

2. "another candidate might be 'more experienced, knowledgeable and better qualified'"

We lost the last two elections nominating policy wonks with the personality of rocks, so if the voters this time want a policy wonk with a sharp wit and the ability to inspire whats wrong with that?

[spooky3]

17. Actually, we won in 2000; I suspect we did in 2004 as well.

[demokatgurrl]

50. WE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT LOSE THE LAST 2 ELECTIONS.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

4. I'm a convert! nt

[KittyWampus]

5. I'm a supporter not a fucking "convert". And I know, from reading his policy positions

and comparing his qualifications, that he's our next POTUS.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. His open internet position helped my decision

Hillary has nothing on it. The man knows how to organize from all levels

[w13rd0]

6. Honestly...

...and granted, this doesn't jibe with the whole "cynicism" thing, but I think Obama, and his campaign staff, realize that a good portion of the voting public doesn't really follow policy and doesn't really have much interest in knowing much about anything. They want to go with the candidate that seems to validate their feelings and subjective opinions. But think about the grand gestures and experiments of our history.

Most people in the US didn't have any idea of what was required to get to the moon, but JFK inspired a generation to dream about space, and exploration, and support the US spending a fair amount of resources on getting there. The whole country was, contrary to the history books, somewhat split on getting into WWII, and even then, there was quite a bit of conflict over which side to support, until there were the calls for personal sacrifice. Get people involved in the process, make them feel as if they are participating. Why do you really think more people vote for "American Idol" than the President? Because they are made to feel as if somehow their voting does actually make a difference.

You have your concerns, and that's completely valid, but we've been locked in a stalemate since Reagan, drifting ever rightward in small baby steps because we're constantly in a 49/51 state of gridlock. We need something to jar us out of it so we can actually get things done that HAVE to be done. Otherwise, the human species could very well die of committee.

[Frances]

11. Just a note on what you said about World War II

There was never any sentiment for going to war on the side of the Nazi's.

There was just very little support for getting into the war at all. The majority of people felt that we had gotten into World War I and they didn't want to get into another war. Plus, people said that we loaned money to the Europeans for that war and the Europeans never paid us back. I don't know if the money part is actually true or not, but that is what the majority of the people believed. The U.S. as a country was isolationist.

But then there was Pearl Harbor. The majority of people were very frightened that the Nazi's and the Japanese would defeat us. So, the country was as united as it has ever been once we entered World War II.

[Abacus]

For me,

it's about leadership. I believe both candidates are technically qualified. Hillary's ability to accomplish usually seems to derive from exploiting weakness, this is how you win battles and lose the war. People on the other end of the exploitation will 1) learn from their mistakes and 2) never forget that they have a score to settle. Obama's ability to accomplish tends to come from uniting disparate groups and convincing them to find the common good. It isn't as quick and easy as exploiting weakness, but the long term results are are far more positive.

[demokatgurrl]

52. Can you please post some hard evidence of

this: "Hillary's ability to accomplish usually seems to derive from exploiting weakness"
Because I have no fucking idea what you are referring to.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. Most people do vote on emotions so we'd damn better nominate someone who can play on them

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Getting Elected Is The First Step.

I think Hillary can win the GE too, of course, but I can't say McCain would have no shot. I'm beginning to think with Obama, McCain has literally no shot.

Furthermore, though Hillary is more qualified etc, it means nothing if she doesn't make it there. It also doesn't mean that Obama wouldn't still make an incredible President. He absolutely would. Not only does he have sound policies, but he also seems to have this amazing potential to actually bring a lot of our country together. I'm starting to realize that, and I think that sort of refreshing presence is exactly what we need after what we've gone through.

And why didn't you just ask me directly in my own thread? Did you misplace your spine? It would've been ok to ask this there.

And my post tonight had nothing to do with emotions, though nice try in your weak and pathetic attempts to minimize it as such. When it comes to logic, I likely run circles around you, and it's that ability to be objective and logical that was the catalyst for my train of thought tonight.

As far as your concerns; thank you for your concern. :hi:

[bettyellen]

10. oh please, your post sounded like you wanted to make out with Barack....

not that there's anything wrong with that.
but seriously.
re read it, fanboy. you're smitten!

[rug]

12. LOL

[bettyellen]

13. they should get a room, perhaps....

[rug]

15. Groovy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VpUFgl1nkGE

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Your Brain Has A Hard Time Interpreting Intellect And Objectivity, I Take It?

That's the only way that your complete misrepresentation of my post would make any sense. :hi:

[bettyellen]

27. "intellect" needs no interpetation but your GUSHING like a schoolboy,

and while you are objective about Hil... that leaves you still.
sitting in a tree w/ Obama.
I leave you two to have at it. :loveya:
glad to see you spouting off

[elias7]

28. please retract your claws; your posts are embarrassing...

[bettyellen]

31. now, see i find the mushy lovestruck stuff embarrassing...

but i am- and shall remain, unapologetically cynical.
especially about politicians. so sue me.

[elias7]

49. hyperbole much?

How does the following quote qualify as "wanting to make out with Barack", gushing like a schoolboy", "sitting in a tree with Obama" or "mushy lovestruck stuff"????????

OMC wrote,"Furthermore, though Hillary is more qualified etc, it means nothing if she doesn't make it there. It also doesn't mean that Obama wouldn't still make an incredible President. He absolutely would. Not only does he have sound policies, but he also seems to have this amazing potential to actually bring a lot of our country together. I'm starting to realize that, and I think that sort of refreshing presence is exactly what we need after what we've gone through."

OMC doesn't me to defend his post, but your responses seem a bit over the top in the inflammatory vein...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

32. wow, what a piggy thing to say. good to see you can still act the major asshole.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Not So Tough When It's Turned Back Around On Ya, Huh...

:hi:

[bettyellen]

39. well gosh Fanboy , menstruation jokes aren't my thing, no. but you've always found ways to digust

... and denigrate the women around here, so, nothing new here. Have you been back harrassing gals in the Feminist forums? You might really enjoy it more now, since almost no one will dare sass you back. Then you can feel even more entitled.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. ROFL!

I didn't denigrate any women, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, NEVER in my entire tenure here have I EVER harassed 'gals' in the feminist forums. You have some real issues with being honest, you know that?

And newsflash to ya: My reply earlier was friggin hilarious LOL

[KAZ]

38. Damn, I have to give OMC a frickin heart. Don't get any ideas!

Good post OMC.

[CatnHat]

9. No vote for Obama

from myself or family, or co-workers. When the Obama camp realizes how he and his supporters polarized the party, Obama, if nominated, will surely loose to McCain, without the democratic base. Simple as that.

[Orsino]

53. Heh. Isn't it terrible that he is stealing votes that are rightfully Clinton's?

If it weren't for Obama, she'd be our nominee. And McCain is just as bad for daring to run against her.

[wildflowergardener]

18. instinct

Sometimes you just have to go with your instinct about a person - and emotion is a factor in that.

With Obama I felt like I had a chance of really liking him as a candidate - the other two I know I would feel so/so about them because I'd already seen them for along time - I figured my liking for either of them wasn't going to change. I'd rather have a candidate I can feel enthusiastic about supporting.

I feel like I just trust Obama more - he seems more honest than the other to me. I've found that it has been true that the more I've heard him speak, both in speeches and debates, the more I've liked him.

Meg

[Recursion]

20. Waving to a fellow old-school Net user

:hi:

/me remembers Veronica, Archie, Kermit, and Gopher too. Those were the days.

[zulchzulu]

21. People pick Obama because he is 'more experienced, knowledgeable and better qualified'

If you think a First Lady's experience with no NSA access, no access to Presidential daily briefings, no security clearances can somehow be tallied up as "Presidential" experience, then you don't see the flaws in that logic.

Obama legislatively has 8 years as an accomplished State Senator and going on 4 years as Senator. That beats 8 years as a Senator...and one that voted for the Iraq war and giving Bush a pass to attack Iran. We're talking about someone who can't apologize for deciding to side with Bush on a trillion dollar war with a million dead.

Additionally, people want change...not a rerun with the same cast of characters who remain divisive among Democrats and unifying for Republicans.

[Kitty Herder]

22. In choosing Obama, I just chose the candidate who seemed to me to be the lesser of

two evils. I could be wrong. In some ways, I chose the evil I don't know over the evil I do know. Backwards, I know. But the evil I know is basically a Republican, so I'll take the one I don't know and project my frustrated little progressive hopes onto him.

I do see some vestiges of progressivism in Obama. I don't think he's a lost cause. Yet.

[theboss]

23. I'm tired of "experience"

If you want experience, vote for John McCain. He was basically given an unlosable Senate seat twenty years ago and won't go away. I guess that make him qualified.

[BurningDog]

24. When people think of great Presidents, they think of...

likable, his heart is in the right place, gives great speeches, is inspirational, etc.

For better or worse, thats what wins the Presidency.

[gravity]

25. A leader needs to inspire

The president isn't a dictatorship, and one has to have the political influence to push their agenda.

Being 'more experienced, knowledgeable and better qualified' (which is subjective in itself) alone is not going to do it.

Human beings are irrational creatures, and it takes some inspiration to get people on the right track. If everyone acted 100% objective and rational, our country would be perfect and there would never be any conflicts to begin with.

[Anser]

26. who.. me?

"Obama convert" here. Ironically, if this were a contest of who I "liked better" I'd still be supporting Hillary. I've seen and heard her speak with passion and intelligence on some of the issues most important to me. I like her personality better. She hasn't appeared on any Monday night football promotions... etc.

But the thing about the excitement surrounding Obama is not a matter of emotion for me. Its about electability. Its about having a leader that a super majority of Americans feel good about, not just 51%. There is a big mess being left by the current administration, and while I'm sure Hillary is smart enough and qualified enough to "clean it up", I think she'd face far more opposition trying to do so than Obama will.

Is it fair? No. But, far from being based in emotion, my change over to Obama is for two simple reasons. I think he has a better chance to win the general election, and I think his popularity would allow him to be a more effective executive. Even if I would rather share a drink and conversation with Hillary.

[HamdenRice]

30. Hillary has lots of experience -- almost all of it bad

I've never understood the "hillary is experienced" meme. Her experience, including her botched health care effort, show her to be utterly incompetent.

[Lisa0825]

34. BINGO!

:applause:

[Jed Dilligan]

33. We're going into a bust, not a boom

Bill Clinton was (supposedly) a great leader at the height of the housing and tech bubbles, but now we are looking at a situation with much of the population struggling to meet basic needs. We will need someone who can speak to all of us, unite us in common purpose, and who already has experience working with extreme poverty.

[sloppyjoe25s]

36. In terms of real work helping people - he has MORE experience

than the other Candidate.

Age does NOT equate to experience.

He has more legislative experience, and legislative accomplishments.

He is also a proven organizer, who knows how to Run a large organization. Don't condemn him just because he's also inspirational, and can touch people's hearts.

[jmg257]

37. "another candidate might be 'more experienced, knowledgeable and better qualified'," WHO???

I keep hearing this theory, but haven't seen this person yet.

When comparing their experiences side by side it is pretty much a wash, with a possible progressive "life" edge going to him, AND there is very little NOT to like (unlike Hillary), and yes -- he DOES motivate and inspire MANY.

[Viking12]

41. "I read stuff" = "some say"

The OP can't provide any evidence that he's actually "read stuff" by actual "converts". He's just regurgitating some pundit's baloney.

[jmg257]

43. Yep - went through this earlier...OPs like this are..."all hat and no cattle"... :)

[Zavulon]

40. If Gore were running, he'd be my choice. Since he's not, I'm going with choice #2.

Where is Hillary on my list? Count the number of people who are or were candidates and add 300 or so. Just counting relatively recent behavior alone, her IWR vote, her refusal to acknowledge it's a mistake, her refusal to congratulate Obama for last night, her laughable answer on drivers' licenses for illegals, her fake tears and so on, leave me thinking that Hillary's only asset is the letter in parentheses after her name.

I don't like her at all. I don't believe a single thing she says. Worse still, I believe a Hillary candidacy will mobilize the Repug vote like never before, even if the so-called "liberal" McCain is her opponent.

An HRC presidency will keep Repugs out of the WH, but it will set our party back. A lot. She makes me sick. If Obama gets nominated, he'll get time and money from me, as well as my vote. If Hillary does, she gets my vote and not a single goddamned thing on top of it.

[sjdnb]

44. I was a draft Gore person ... (the 'convert' term, and the old days)

when that appeared unlikely, I switched to Edwards. Always liked them both, but Gore won on several points including experience.

And, the reason I used the term converts was because the paraphrase was derived from a collection posts where people indicated they were switching from their first choice candidate. Not meant as a snipe.

I remember the net when I could have registered the domain names yahoo.com, msn.com, (or, just about any other name I wanted). But, at that time, no decent, upstanding, netizen would have considered being a squatter or, that everything would be taken over so quickly by commercial entities. But, the protests went unnoticed, for the most part.

[rucky]

45. It's just a personality thang.

no need to be concerned.

[Bucky]

46. Some of us Obamanos are enthusiastic. I just think he's a stronger contender than Clinton

I also happen to think he'll be able to build consensus better than Clinton, but my going to him after Biden dropped out is entirely about electability. I'm not a fanboy, just a fan. I'm not enthralled with him, but I'm very excited by the enthusiasm he inspires in other. I don't do hero worship, at least where Obama is concerned. I worship at the altar of democracy. If people of good will get charged up over a worthy cause, I embrace it wholeheartedly.

[OnionPatch]

47. For one thing, because

he can win!! And we desperately need to keep another Republican out of the White House. Hillary's experience is great. But her policy ideas are very, very similar to Obama's. And in order to move your agenda forward, first you have to win, then you have to get the majority of the public behind you. Hillary seems unable to do either. Besides, Obama is not unexperienced or underqualified and in my humble opinion, Hillary's qualifications are somewhat hyped up. I mean, by the standards she's using, Laura Bush is on her way to being qualified for a presidential term.

[demokatgurrl]

51. I guess I missed Laura Bush's time in the Senate

and her years as a child advocate.
Oh, I forgot, she takes care of Dubya.

[OnionPatch]

54. Well, obviously

I was talking about being first lady. I don't deny that Hillary has some experience in the senate, but not all that much more than Obama. It's the first lady experience that I question as being relevant.

[Barack_America]

48. It's pretty easy to get excited about a Dem candidate who trounces the Rep. nominee...

in head-to-head polls.

Add to that excellent speaking skills and an optimistic plan for America and it's downright SWOON time!

[crawfish]

55. You'd rather have a micromanager?

I'm an Obama supporter through attrition. But, of the two left, he's the best leader and our best hope for progress. With Clinton's propensity to scapegoat and fire people after setbacks, the WH employment office could become a revolving door and NOTHING would get done.

[stillcool]

56. experience....is the problem...

the Clinton experience. Especially that battle tested kind. The one where the person tested loses battle after battle. And then there is the method used by the Clinton campaign to win votes and influence people. I haven't much liked that "sorry" experience either.

..."I'm sorry"

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis. The ad features a couple at a kitchen table, which some Clinton supporters said was reminiscent of "the famous insurance-industry-financed 'Harry and Louise' ads against the original Clinton plan," as The Politico reports, and Mr. Nichols said it "personally outraged" him.


Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

Source: Hillary Adviser Harold Ickes Tells Surrogates To Refer To Super-Delegates As "Automatic Delegates"
By Greg Sargent - February 12, 2008, 11:43AM

In a sign that the spin war over the significance of super-delegates is underway in earnest, Harold Ickes told assorted Hillary supporters on a private conference call yesterday that the campaign wants them to start referring to super-delegates as "automatic delegates," according to someone on the call.

The person I spoke to paraphrases Ickes, who is spearheading Hillary's super-delegate hunt, this way: "We're no longer using the phrase super delegates. It creates a wrong impression. They're called automatic delegates. Because that's what they are."

The worry appears to be that the phrase "super-delegates" implies that "they have super-powers or super influence when they don't," the source says, describing Ickes' thinking. In other words, the phrase suggests that they have greater than average clout and that they have the power to overrule the democratic process, giving it the taint of back-room power politics
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php

[GalleryGod]

57. Piffle!

For HER, Madame!