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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:19 AM
Original message
"Friends, Romans, Countrymen"
"I’m the man this poem is about/I’ll be champ of the world; there isn’t a doubt/Here I predict Mr. Liston’s dismemberment/I’ll hit him so hard he’ll wonder where October and November went.”
-- Cassius Clay; "I Am the Greatest" LP; 1963



All of life imitates the sport of boxing. We can only understand the world of politics when we view it in the context of a boxing match. Let’s take a moment, and look at what has taken place this month in the Ring of Life.

Barack Obama, the underdog in the democratic primary, won three rounds yesterday. This makes a total of seven straight rounds since Super Tuesday. Because the number seven reminds me of the young heavyweight challenger Cassius Clay’s prediction on what round he would take the title from Charles "Sonny" Liston, I thought we might look at this as a continuation of that February 25, 1964 fight.

Sonny was considered the inevitable champion from when he turned professional. Senator Clinton was promoted as the inevitable democratic nominee since before she even announced her candidacy.

People considered Liston unbeatable. They pointed out how he beat anyone that was put in front of him. Many contenders were so afraid of him, that they were beaten before the first bell. Senator Clinton has also put together some impressive wins, and people assumed the democratic primary was over before it began.

Barack Obama was considered a brash young contender when he entered the primaries. Some of the older contenders, who had been in the ranks for many years, were not taking him too seriously. "He seems a bit clean for this game," some thought out loud. They said he was exciting, but untested, and they recommended that he wait until he was more experienced before challenging for the title. Yet Barack refused to simply Biden his time, and began to defeat the older contenders.

The Old Mongoose, Archie Moore, said that he had almost become Clay’s trainer, and that he would teach the young upstart a lesson. Clay said, "Archie’s been living off the fat of the land; I’m here to give him his pension plan." Cassius knocked Archie out, and a few of the doubters pointed out that the young man’s poetry sounded unoriginal. But his LP was a best-seller.

Finally, Clay signed to fight for the title. He was the underdog. The experts kept saying, "But look how easy Sonny disposed of Little Ricky Lazio!" The smart money was on Sonny. In the democratic primary, the experts were thinking of how easily Hillary Clinton had handled Little Ricky. The smart money was on Clinton, and in fact we were told that she had so much money that no one could compete with her in a long fight.

Cassius Clay knew something: Sonny had been knocking everyone out early. Like he would say about Big George Foreman a decade later, it had been a long time since Sonny had heard "Round Seven!" No one knew how he would look if they heard "Round Nine!" All the people in Liston’s camp were so sure that Sonny would knock young Cassius out in one or two rounds, that they never thought of it going into the middle rounds. Just like the Clinton campaign was sure that Hillary would wrap up the nomination by Super Tuesday.

In the first round of that Miami Beach battle, the fans were surprised at how well Cassius did. In the second round, Sonny started to look a little better. The experts at ringside were sure it was only a matter of time. And, in a sense, it was.

Obama shocked the political world with his victory in Round One. Hillary came back in Round Two. And even though the experts at ringside began to sigh with relief, there was some panic in Clinton’s corner. There’s an old joke about a fighter telling his main cornerman, "Why don’t you go out there and show me what you mean?" And for a brief time, it appeared that Bill Clinton wanted to get in that ring himself, the way he was carrying on at ringside. As Malcolm X said about his sitting ringside at the Clay vs Liston fight (in seat #7), it’s easy to make a fool of yourself at a boxing match.

The dirty fighting started. It wasn’t unexpected. Liston’s corner had put an ointment on the old champion’s glove, a tactic that they had used before. When Liston jabbed Clay, it got in the young man’s eyes. Both in boxing and politics, one finds thugs. In his life, Sonny Liston never encountered a lower specimen of humanity than Mark Penn. And Penn began a Rovian series of nasty tricks. But Penn has turned out to be the fly in the ointment for the Clinton camp. The low blows have all backfired.

Barack Obama has won seven straight rounds since Super Tuesday. The Clinton corner has tried to pretend everything is fine, but when you see changes in the campaign manager in between rounds, it isn’t a good sign.

Senator Obama is able to raise far more money than Senator Clinton. The fans are all cheering for him. It’s not just the spectators in the arena. All around the country, the big excitement in this contest is not the inevitable champion Hillary Clinton. Pick up any newspaper. Turn on any television station. Watch YouTube. Many of those fight fans who came to cheer for Senator Clinton are now supporting Senator Obama.

There are those in the Clinton camp who are saying it isn’t over. And they are right. But the truth is that their best chance is to have her last until the convention after the last round, in hopes that the judges/ super delegates are going to score the fight for her. That’s where the Clinton camp’s best hope is – not for a victory based on the votes that define the democratic process – but by a scoring system that could steal the decision from the true winner.

Sonny Liston had the good sense to sit on his stool, rather than continue in a battle he could not win. Young Cassius went on to become widely recognized as the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Even those people who doubted him when he was young, came to love and respect him. He became the most recognized person on the planet, and a global ambassador of peace and goodwill.

Now let us focus on the Fall of John McCain. Barack Obama will make him wonder where October and November went.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Last night
Obama spoke to about 17,000 supporters at the University of Wisconsin;

Clinton addressed about 12,000 supporters in El Paso;

and McCain delivered the republican eulogy to an estimated 220 mourners in Virginia.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. So it was 220. I couldn't tell if there were 200 or 20 from watching on TV.
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 08:00 AM by mmonk
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. the men behind McCain made him look young.
It was a terrible selection on their part.

p.s. I always enjoy your boxing analogies.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Even Pat Buchanan
made a joke about it.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. You are so clever-what a great analogy! Rec'd! nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Thank you.
I'm thinking that most progressive and liberal democrats respect The Champ. He helped to usher in a new era, and to change the way that people thought about what it means to be an American.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. If I recall, you have been a fence sitter - as have I
I could back either candidate. I see plusses and minuses with each candidate. And I can't vote until May so my support seemed irrelevant (indeed most dems that I know here in Indiana have expressed the same thing.)

While not so eloquent, and certainly not with the great analogy you have presented, I had the same thought as the returns came in. "The Tea Leaves have spoken" (not to call voters tea leaves... but the overall primary scenario.)

I can't blame Clinton and her supporters if they try to stay in a little longer, but I would imagine the stress and the financial realities (campaign debt often has to be fund-raised to pay off... and it is a much harder job to raise money after leaving a race) will kick in before too long.

Congrats to Obama and his supporters here at DU. While it may be too early for the Clinton folks to start backing Obama - I would think that for the fence sitters the time has come. We were waiting for the leader in the primary to emerge. I think that has just happened.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Thank you.
I decided to endorse Senator Barack Obama on Super Tuesday. I was impressed with Senator Teddy Kennedy's reading of polls that indicated that Senator Clinton could not win in November, and that the tactics of her campaign were causing divisions our party cannot afford. He believes that Barack Obama is the person most capable of uniting our nation and healing the damage the Bush-Cheney administration has done. I agree with him.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. I've been undecided for awhile too

I have liked both Hillary and Obama (actually I liked all the Dem candidates), seeing both positives and negatives. But since last night when Obama emerged as the leader, I am leaning towards Obama.

Ohio's primary is on March 4th. Our governor has already endorsed Hillary, so I think there were be lots of ads for Hillary until then to try to sway us towards Hillary.


P.S. I grew up in Indiana and still have family residing there. It seems an eternity to wait until May for the primary which by then, the candidate will be decided.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. March 4 is a Looong time away this year (May 5th is an eternity).
If Clinton is still in the race, I bet you are right (per the commercials), if she is still in the race and you are *not* innundated with ads - then it would be a sure sign that the campaign is winding down.

I think the money factor will start playing a role in the decision in the near future. Retiring massive campaign debt is a hefty job.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Good morning, sir
You are correct. It is time to gather round our champion and cheer him on while he plays "rope a dope" with the Republican hate machine.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Good morning!
It is a great day to be a democrat in the United States of America.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Barack Obama is Muhammad Ali
Barack Obama is John Lennon
Barack Obama is Martin Luther King
Barack Obama is John F. Kennedy
Barack Obama is Hunter S. Thompson
Barack Obama is Mohandas Gandhi
Barack Obama is Sam Cooke
Barack Obama is Robert Kennedy
Barack Obama is Nelson Mandela
Barack Obama is your lover, your parent, your leader, your deity

I've seen all these analogies and metaphors used just in the last day or so. I expect to be able to add "Barack Obama is Jesus Christ" soon.

And you wonder where the "cult meme" comes from?

--p!
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. weak
and lame

and sad
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. I agree. Most cults of personality are.
And please don't throw around the insult "lame" like a petulant teen-ager. Some of us actually ARE lame. For real.

--p!
Not sad, though.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. C'mon, you've done better than this. n/t
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I simply compiled the list
Barack Obama was analogized to all those people -- and recently.

--p!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. My goodness!
I would not have included Hunter S. Thompson in the list. That's just outrageous!
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. I've only seen Clinton supporters calling him "the second coming" and "Jesus Christ"
and that kind of vile crap.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. Where as according to others...
Barack Obama is George W. Bush.
Barack Obama is Ronald Reagan.
Barack Obama is Hitler.
Barack Obama is Stalin.
Barack Obama is David Koresh.
Barack Obama is Jim Jones.
Barack Obama is Saddam Hussien
Barack Obama is Osama bin Laden.
Barack Obama is a monkey.

I have no need to wonder where that's coming from.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
83. Delete-wrong place/eom
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 09:03 PM by Reterr
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. and the cult following of Hillary would compare her to who?
Just wondering.

:shrug:
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. Thank you, will it never end... n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
56. Don't forget "Hillary Clinton is Richard Nixon"
She's abusing her power as President 11 months before being sworn in, due to the time-warping transitive property of Clenis. :eyes:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
89. H20 Man in a cult???
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
91. Rephrase that last bit: Barack Obama is the black Jesus.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. I was in high school
As a girl, boxing wasn't something I understood and even now am not especially versed in. At my age now, I see the elegance that escaped me when I wasn't ready to see it. What I do remember is that EVERYONE was talking about Cassius Clay EVERYWHERE, in the lunch room, in the school yard, on the corners, in the drugstore, the post office, around the kitchen table. Some people wanted him to lose and some people wanted him to win. I wanted him to win because I sensed he was ready to take on the power. A couple of years later he said simple words I have never forgotten: "No Vietcong ever called me nigger." By then, I understood. I was ready to understand, not about race alone, but about war and politics. Obama is ready to take on the power. The country is ready to understand. No matter what anyone's opinions or preferences are, this is where we are, this is where the American voters are and American democracy is - ready to take on the power. That's what the word "hope" stands in for and the young Cassius Clay is the elegant example of it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. I boxed
in my first amateur match a few months after Cassius won the heavyweight title. I think that he was the greatest athlete ever. But he was much more than an boxer, as you noted. Someone once said that if we were to look for a representative of what is good about modern humans, Ali should be the #1 choice.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
70. reading WesDems post just above yours...
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 06:00 PM by Whisp
similar to my thoughts on Ali. I was quite young and very uninteresting in sports, especially boxing, but Ali made me pay attention, not to boxing so much, but to the power of words and believing in yourself.

but I do have catching up to do and would really like to learn more about him now. Any particular book you would recommend?

on edit:
I see downthread 'Soul like a Butterfly'.
thanks. I must get that one.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. (MSNBC) Buchanan advises Clinton:
Patrick Buchanan is on the MSNBC Morning Show, saying that the only chance the Clinton campaign has now is to start throwing bombs. He is saying that the Clinton people have to make this very ugly. Will the Clinton campaign channel Patrick Buchanan? Time will tell.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Matthews to Buchanan:
"I've got it, Pat. They can break into Obama headquarters!"
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I've got an idea. Use plumbers.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I liked when
Matthews said that if certain people want MSNBC to be "fair," they could start showing a clip of Clinton speaking versus a clip of Obama speaking every night -- because just like last night, one of the two is a far more powerful speaker.

Sounds fair.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. how about showing both of those... then McCain and Bush
not only will we see eloquence vs bumbling - we will also hear policy vs rhetorical rubbish.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. I agree.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
69. Bwahahaha, this reminds me of another H2O thread n/t
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
92. the hope-a-dope
I was only slightly to young for the draft, but I knew it was coming and I wasn't sure what to do when, and if, that day came. It was a lottery. How messed up was that? The ultimate lotto game. The infamous Deer Hunter scene, vistited on the whole nation.

When Clay became a conscientious objector, it had a larger effect on my personal view of the war, and America in general, than any other single event in my life. I even had a distant relative die in country, and it didn't faze me nearly as much as he did. He was the real deal. John Wayne, Thurgood Marshal, and Rosa Parks all rolled into one person.

In the next few rounds of this bout, Clinton has a huge opening to the left. If she circles far enough to the left, far enough to be enthusiastic about impeachment and criminal prosecution of some of the war profiteers, then she can beat him down and win this thing. There's absolutely nothing for her to lose by moving quickly this far to his left. Nothing. And she's win back all the Edwards supporters, plus more of the base. Obama would be forced to stay in the middle in order to defend the fundamental basis for his whole campaign, or else abandon it completly.

At least that's what I would tell her to do if I was in her corner. She's getting whooped, badly!
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee.
Well done, H2O Man!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. Thanks!
I like that Senator Obama is bring excitement to politics. It is great to see young Americans becoming involved in the process. They respond to people like Ali and Obama.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. It Ain't Over Till It's Over
Unless it is
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. True.
I think that there are two options now: (1) Do the right thing for the party, and step aside; and (2) Do the wrong thing for the party, and throw bombs. Time will tell.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. H2O Man, you float like a butterfly, sting like a bee
I was going to ask you why you used Ali as your avatar. Now I know.

Great post. I sure as hell hope this doesn't come down to a judges decision. That would be a travesty.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Poor Ernie!
He refused to address the Champ by his real name. That photo tells the story of their February 6, 1967 fight.

Ernie's sister was a very good singer, of course. Tammy Terrell had a good career.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
24. Wow, this is a great post! I love Muhammed Ali! He was the greatest, and still is!
No one ever captured our attention or our hearts like Muhammed Ali.

Hell, I don't even watch boxing anymore!

Once you've seen the best, why watch the rest?

LoL

He was a great boxer, and a great man - stood up against the Vietnam War.
Stood up for himself.
Stood up for us.
Stood up for good things in all of us.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. Ali did so many things
that the public is unaware of. His book with his daughter ("Soul of a Butterfly") is a fantastic book. I recommend it to all people who care about The Champ.

I had a collection of photos from when my older brother used to hang out in his training camps. I've got a few of him "visiting" my friend Rubin in Rahway from '73-'74. I'll try to find some of them to post on DU soon.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. Thanks for the book recommendation. I will definitely look into reading it.
As eloquent a writer as you are, you should write a book yourself.

I had an English professor in college once that told me inside every person there is a novel waiting to get out. I told him that some people don't have interesting lives and are not very good writers. He told me that he thought that if I really wanted to, I could "crap" one out. I replied, "yeah, and that's what it would be too, crap."

LoL
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
27. Recommended. What a compelling analogy.
When I saw that (all white) crowd in Wisconsin, the first thing that came to my mind was that Obama was truly the "People's Champ."

The contrast between Obama's speech to thousands and McCain's message to his followers was very startling. And at every network that carried the speeches, the message was the same: "WOW!" Chris admitted that Obama gave him a "tingly feeling" (up his leg). Keith Olbermann advised the candidates left in this race to give their speeches before Obama. I'd agree.

Even McCain, in his message, tried to illustrate the philosophical differences between himself and Obama. The problem is that I think his analogy went over most people's heads. McCain said he was fired up and ready to go, borrowing from the same guy that he says is too selfish to lead the country. The difference between the people standing behind McCain and those surrounding Obama couldn't have been more different. Obama is leading a people's movement. The pundits on MSNBC correctly pointed out that Obama didn't call his campaign a campaign... he used the word movement, which is significant. No substantive change can be accomplished without a movement building the forces to marshall the change.

And then there was Clinton; refusing to even acknowledge the night's loss. Refusing to seriously compete in Wisconsin. Just giving up on multiple states to focus on three: TX, OH, and PA. This is a problem that is a symptom of a larger issue. How many times have we as a party just written off states and people to focus just a prized few? How many times have our members of Congress passed AWFUL legislation (Patriot Act, NCLB, Bush's prescription drug handout to corporations) because there are only a few nuggets included that people feel will satisfy the "base."

Obama is running the campaign of "higher expectations" and people are responding. We want to help fix our country and I really appreciate the fact that he says let's do this together, rather than taking the "I will.." approach.

I still believe this will go to the convention and Clinton will attempt to seat the FL and MI delegates.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. Obama communicates
the Power of Ideas. His message is one of hope. People recognize that. They respond to it.

Some of our DU friends have difficulty with this, because they have learned not to trust. They see everything in a hopeless and helpless light. But in time they, too, will come to see that this is the best chance that we have had to change our society.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. There is a Poetry To Both Ali & Obama. America needs Poetry again to restore it's sense of Self
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. It is no coincidence
that one candidate is talking about teaching poetry and the arts in public schools.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
87. if he didn't have me already, he woulda got me with that.
what the hell else do people need to hear, i wonder.
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
78. what's in a name...O
baMMmmmmaah

I keep noticing the different ways posters recognize and refer to Obama. His name alone is much more poetic than Hillary. I was thinking that I wish I'd kept a list of all the ways his name was spelled. Sometimes, I just like words, but, I wonder if there is any significance to someone's name. It is a melodic, fluid name that lends itself to poetry. OMC's take on it was like a breezy song...

hard to explain...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Interesting.
It is hard to explain .... but easy to understand what you are saying. I agree.

It's kind of like the name "Ali." One of my favorite memories is of sitting ringside at MSG for the 2nd Frazier vs Ali fight. The crowd was cheering, "Ali! Ali! Ali! Ali!" And that has been part of the experience with crowds for many years: "Ali! Ali! Ali! Ali!" It has a power.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R
:kick: Wonderful!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. Thank you!
I appreciate it.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. Recommended.
By the way, I recently discovered an excellent interview from the early 1960's of Cassius by Steve Allen on YouTube. I'm sure you and other fans would enjoy it; I'm a fan of both men.

It's in two parts:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0lb2tcaI9l8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5lKtZ41tPI0

I was just a grade schooler then, but I remember well how he was a lightning rod. He did change America, and definitely for the better. The young champ was at his finest with Steve in front of a live audience, funny and brilliant, spontaneous and genuine.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Very good!
Thank you.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
38. One rec is simply not enough.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
58. ha!
I feel the same way sometimes.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. fantastic read! rec'd!


:rofl:
Now let us focus on the Fall of John McCain. Barack Obama will make him wonder where October and November went.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
65. The fall match-up
between Obama and McCain will be a one-sided event.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. Another excellent post from H20 Man K&R
I even tried to recommend it twice! I really, really hope it doesn't come down to the super delegates because if they don't choose the actual winner, it will be a mess.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. There are more and more
people in positions of influence who are quietly saying that it is important that if Barack continues to win in the manner he is, that it is important that the party recognize him as the winner. I am hoping that it will not be a question before the convention. I think that within nine days, that some of the behind-the-scenes people are going to push for Obama to be recognized as the nominee.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
71. I do so hope that you're right.
I just got an email from Howard Dean, saying he thinks there will be a winner prior to the convention, which made me feel a bit better.

I think I am imagining all sorts of things the Clinton's could try to do ie: Florida Delegates, Superdelegates, etc., and it would be really, really ugly. I would hope they would put the good of the country, as well as the party, before winning, but I have to say it worries me.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. Yeah, but he lost to Leon Spinks for crying out loud.


30 years ago, Friday.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. Leon
was at the Hall of Fame in June, 2006, along with many of the greatest Olympic boxing team. He is a good and decent man. I do not think that he will rank in the top ten heavyweight champions, however.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
48. She can also chip away at the margin the pundits estimate she has to win TX, OH, & PA by
by doing better in the states in-between and amassing delegates. As you say, she's still in the ring, fighting.

As for Obama against McCain, I liken him to a new, untested fighter who's promising to pull his punches to rally the visiting crowd. Not a very good substitute for the seasoned champ (Clinton) he wants to retire.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Her biggest fight
was against Little Ricky Lazio. It is a stretch to call Little Ricky a top contender. At very least, Alan Keyes talked a good fight. Lazio couldn't do that.

It's a tough thing. Last night, my daughter watched some of the returns with me. She asks the kind of questions that 14-years olds do. And although she wants Obama to be President, she watches Clinton and listens very closely. She said that she thinks from listening to her that Hillary wants to be President because she really believes she is the best person, who can do good for people. She said she feels bad for her, because even if you are a politician, it has to hurt to have the people you want to help voting for someone else. From the mouth of young folk, bigtree.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. We knocked Keyes off of the mat here in Md. without so much as a whisper
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 04:31 PM by bigtree
Obama's other candidate philandered himself out of the way. Untested.

And, where did Little Ricky Lazio get that those $40 million horseshoes he had in his gloves?

Wisdom from the mouths of babes . . . who can argue with that?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. If you have never
read Barack Obama's description of his experiences with Alan Keyes in his book (The Audacity of Hope), I strongly recommend it. It ranks with the funniest things that I've read in the past decade. Keyes is such a strangely intense cartoon-like character, but he is as intelligent as he is twisted. Little Ricky was cut from another cloth, one in the pattern of his mommy's apron. Where Alan can have an audience in stitches with his words, the only funny thing about Ricky was his one moment of slapstick, when he forgot to keep his distance during the debate.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. One lousy comedian is as worthless as the next
. . . to me.

The issue with Lazio wasn't in the debates with him directly. There was a RNC heavy campaign being waged with as many surrogates as there were microphones. There was a withering media campaign with charges of carpetbagging (like Keyes) and everything behind the entire Whitewater smear (all McCain and the republicans really have in their arsenal, for anything they defend)

Keyes may have intelligence, but he was never a threat to Obama in Illinois.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
53. Inspiring post... Recommended nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #53
94. Thank you! n/t
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
54. Another K.O.
of a post!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #54
95. Thanks! n/t
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick! n/t
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Lex Talionis Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
59. Vae Victus!
Yes, Ali was the greatest.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #59
96. I can remember
how he used to visit my friend Rubin in Rahway State Prison. And the good Hurrican would tell me about how the inmates would be transformed when the Champ was there. Their behavior and attitude changed. Ali spoke to them about self-respect, and taking responsibility for their own behavior. This is what led to Carter "running for office" -- he became the head of the Prisoner's Council, and I still have a lot of the paperwork from those days. As I'm writing this, I am thinking of another essay for an OP on DU -- thank you for that!
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
60. The first man to make me believe boxing was an art
Fortunately also the last man to so do. It is such a shame that Ali has suffered so much, the Greeks would have seen it as the Gods destroying a hero, in a more rational age I see a hero destroyed by his heroism. :cry:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Those close to Ali
remind us not to feel sorry for him. He is at peace with himself. His mind is clear. He feels that his current physical condition allows him to show others with the same type of disease (both his father and friend Howard Cosell had the same illness) that they can live with dignity. His book "Soul of a Butterfly" reveals a man who is highly intelligent, and who loves life.

I understand that one of the films that he enjoys showing visitors is the upset victory over Liston. Both Ali and Angelo Dundee believe it was one of his greatest matches.
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Shine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
63. YES!!! I so appreciate your writing, H20Man.
Great analogy between Cassius and Barack. :yourock: Thanks for your post.

I agree, we should focus on the fall of the Repukes and McCain...

:hi:
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
68. Have you ever read "The Pugilist at Rest"?
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 05:10 PM by femmedem
It was the breakout story by Thom Jones, and it won an O Henry award in 1994. I think you would like it.

The narrator is a boxer in the marines. Here's an excerpt:

"Theogenes was the greatest of gladiators. He was a boxer who served under the patronage of a cruel nobleman, a prince who took great delight in bloody spectacles. Although this was several hundred years before the times of those most enlightened of men Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and well after the Minoans of Crete, it still remains a high point in the history of Western civilization and culture. It was the approximate time of Homer, the greatest poet who ever lived. Then, as now, violence, suffering, and the cheapness of life were the rule.

...

Has man become any better since the time of Theogenes? The world is replete with badness. I'm not talking about that old routine where you drag out the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Joseph Stalin, the Khmer Rouge, etc. It happens in our own backyard. Twentieth-century America is one of the most materially prosperous nations in history. But take a walk through an American prison, a nursing home, the slums where the homeless live in cardboard boxes, a cancer ward. Go to a Vietnam vets' meeting, or an A.A. meeting, or an Overeaters Anonymous meeting. How hollow and unreal a thing is life, bow deceitful are its pleasure, what horrible aspects it possesses. Is the world not rather like a hell, as Schopenhauer, that clearheaded seer - who has helped me transform my suffering into an object of understanding - was so quick to point out? They called him a pessimist and dismissed him with a word, but it is peace and self-renewal that I have found in his pages."

Edited for sloppy punctuation.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
72. Great essay!
K&R.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
73. Fabulous metaphor!
Thanks! This is a great piece of writing, great story.

I'm sure it will make some folks think.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
74. K & R
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
75. Bravo!!
Wonderful piece. K&R

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Great photo!
The re-match was a curious event.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
80. Hooray!
Loved it!

I am proud to say that I am related to Ali via his marriage to his current wife. My sis in law is her first cousin.

I have only met him once, but I have followed him for quite some time.

Obama is a true gift to this Democratic party. He will well serve us. :thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Lonnie
is a wonderful person. She is exactly who the Champ needs now.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. You are sooo correct. She's been nothing but an angel!
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
82. Oh Puhleeease...
"All of life imitates the sport of boxing"...H2O man

Are you kidding me? After tortuously twisting your metaphor around your favorite discussion, the never-ending paean to Obama , and his invincibility, you go on to say that this most ignoble of sports, which you find noble, is flawed if Hillary wins. If you like boxing, you must accept the good with the bad, and usually, the ugly. Also, if you remember the movie "The Untouchables", Ness parroted Capone when at the conclusion of Al's trial, he stated, "the fights not over until only one person is left standing". Your presumptions are a bit premature, don't you think?

Anyway, I know Boxing in a different way than you do. Confidentiality agreements limit my response, but as a participant (counsel) in litigation involving the most controversial people of this modern era of boxing, I learned quite quickly that the game is merely a brutal, savage game, in which the very few profit, at the expense of the true warriors. Worse yet, the always present "handlers" simultaneously act in their own interests, to the detriment of those in the ring.

I would hope that boxing isn't the metaphor to explain life, because what I saw had little glory, but only infighting for the spoils of war.

Gee, that sounds more like Corporatist politics doesn't it? Lets say a certain controversial promoter is like the CEO of Halliburton, or it's equal. The warrior is not so much a person, but an ideal sacrificed in order to advance the corporate interest. Democracy, representation, privacy, are all the victims of the inglorious victor.

Fights always have vocal partisans shouting around the ring, like POLITICS. Usually, the sentiments for that rabid hysteria, as the fight goes on, are an ugly commentary on selfish secondary interests like a wager, or idol worship. People tend to vest their own interests in one fighter, against the other. The decision is not always predicated on sense or reason.

Yeah, POLITICS is a slice of life, which lends itself to the metaphor. However, when one fighter bites the ear of another, all sense of civility goes out the door.

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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
84. I am not sure that all of life imitates boxing
Edited on Wed Feb-13-08 09:04 PM by Reterr
But if it did, and no offense to you H20 man, but overall I would rather it didn't. Not exactly the most peaceful of sports is it :shrug:? I have to confess to always having had a prejudice against the sport.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
85. I was in Junior High when Clay first fought Liston
In gym class, we were all making small bets and by far most of the money was on Liston. Clay was being called the "Louisville Lip" in the media and few sports experts were taking him seriously. He was considered a superior Light Heavyweight turned Heavy at best. Clay was a self-confident loud mouth writing poems and predicting the round in which he would knock out Liston. Clay was so confident, so sure of himself, he even made a record album of poems BEFORE the fight including one in which he said "they all fall in the round I call, or they all lose in the round I choose". Liston had anihilated Floyd Patterson twice and was considered unbeattable. Clay was saying that the world needed someone "pretty" like him, not someone ugly like Liston, who he called the Bear.

I think Cassius Clay showed such a conviction about his own superior boxing skills and his overwhelmingly fast hands, such a belief in himself that it truly inspired an entire generation of young people when he prevailed. Here was not only a colorful boxer who believed in himself, he was willing to lay it all on the line for the world to see. He was not just empty talk. I think Cassius Clay, and later as Muhammad Ali led a mini-revolution of the upstart against the establishment. It was a real dynamic typical of the 1960s. Clay/Ali embodied the hope of the 1960s and, as mentioned, I think he influenced an entire generation of young people to believe in themselves.

I hope that Barack Obama can equally deliver on the hope, self-confidence and inspiration that he inspires in young people in overcoming the impossible. We may be on the brink of another mini-revolution in this country if he can deliver. Obama will have a very rough road ahead, though, with seemingly insurmountable problems like war and the disintegrating economy and I wish him the best.
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bagimin Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-13-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
88. Nice analogy...
I can remember lying on the floor with my friend listening to that fight on the radio like it was yesterday.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
90. You're right about boxing and politics, Both are blood sports.
There's a good reason why Ali was the best-known and most beloved man in the world. He was one of the bravest, gutsiest, smartest guys in public life, ever. The Greatest.

I also have high hopes for Obama. He has the makings of another true champion. :7
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. Boxing and politics
both bring out the best, and the worst, in people.

Every great American author seems to either love the sport, or to find the sport offensive but find one fighter fascinating.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #93
100. I used to box as a kid, and loved the sport during that era.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 09:32 AM by leveymg
Clay-Liston, Ali-Frazier, Ali-Foreman, Foreman-Frazier. It was all good boxing. Even the politics worked themselves out, and the NY State Supreme Court found he had been illegally stripped of his title, restoring Ali to the game.

Good training for later life. Dance and sting, or get in close and work the gut. Let the opponent wear himself out chasing you around. You don't always have to go for a knockout. In the end, most matches are won on points.

Most of all, respect your opponent.

I think George Foreman is a classy fighter, too. Loved his comeback at age 45. Frazier had a lot of heart.

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AlertLurker Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
97. Focus on the Fall of John McCain?
One battle at a time, please. Get HRC out of the way FIRST...

Not a great comparison, either - unless you want to really scare Whitey!

Not that Ali was not "the Greatest, but remember the controversey:

Elijah Muhammed
Malcolm X
Nation of Islam
Draft Dodging
Convicted Felon
Don King


I'd really MUCH rather see him compared to Frederick Douglas, or JFK...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. He was not a "draft dodger."
He was a Man of Conscience, who was willing to lose all he had worked for, to give up the Heavyweight Title, to lose millions of dollars, and to go to prison, rather than make a butchery of his conscience. He was supported by Martin Luther King in that stance, and he won by an 8 to 0 decision in the United States Supreme Court. He is not a "convicted felon."

Even the vast majority of people who were shocked by the man in the mid-1960s, today view him with love and respect. When he stood with the Olympic torch, it was a powerful moment. It proves that our nation can deal with difficult problems.
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AlertLurker Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. I wholeheartedly agree with the term "Man of Conscience."
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 08:46 AM by AlertLurker
It suits him well.

It does not alter the FACTS, however. The CONTROVERSY was about him "dodging the draft," and he was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison as a result. That the conviction was overturned later by the SC does NOT alter the fact that he was, while on bail for four years, a convicted felon.

It does not alter the fact that his courageous resistance to US tyranny and oppression inspired MILLIONS, worldwide, either - myself included. Nor should his example EVER be forgotten because his conviction was overturned.

I was around in 1967. I remember it well. I also remember the '96 Atlanta Games where he stood on the podium, heroically holding the torch aloft to inspire a new generation.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. Anyone who is
going to have an issue with what Ali did in 1965 is highly unlikely to be a democrat in 2008. I really don't care what they think.
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