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Reality Check for the "who can win southern states in the GE" debates.

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:18 AM
Original message
Reality Check for the "who can win southern states in the GE" debates.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 05:19 AM by Jamastiene
Neither a black man nor a white woman can win in the general election in the south or in middle America in general. That's a fact that you can take to the bank. On January 20, 2009, get ready for President McCain. It's coming. Mark my words and bookmark this.


The truth is, the Democratic Party has totally ignored 2 great candidates (Kucinich and Edwards) in favor of 2 no win choices. We lose.

The facts are that both racism and misogyny are BOTH alive and well in this country. I'm a realist. I know the truth. Faced with a choice of McCain, who they really don't like that much, and a black man or a white woman on the other side of the coin, they'll go for McCain. We have already lost.

Face the facts, people. Any of you who deny that misogyny or racism both exist in this country in the majority of the people are lying to yourselves and not seeing the truth. Whether you honestly don't see it or just don't want to see it, despite its overwhelming presence, I don't know. I'd suggest a trip through GD: P if you want to see some examples. Trust me. It's alive and well.

Discuss.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Discuss?
Your post has little to no basis in reality, and both Hillary and Obama are more electable than Kucinich, and at least on par with Edwards in electability.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not true.
Edwards would appeal to middle America where most of the electoral college votes are tied to those in poverty. That would have been the winner for us. Not saying I don't like Hillary at all here, but this country is still so backasswards in its thinking that a woman will not be elected nor a black man, any time soon. It's just not in the cards.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. How do you explain the record turnouts for Hillary and Obama?
Are the millions of people who vote in the primaries simply not at all representative of the rest of America?
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. maybe "middle America" does not want a war
like JE and Hillary. Thus the popular support for Obama.

War = poverty. It's not hard to figure that one out.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think we're headed for either a MASSIVE victory or a MASSIVE defeat
but I don't think race is going to be the bugaboo that some folks think it is. Or maybe I'm totally wrong about that too. :P

But I think voter motivation is going to be the key.

I deeply suspect that if Obama plays his cards right, there will be HORDES of people going to the polls for us that we've never seen before.

I also deeply suspect that a secular Yankee who has alienated the right wing time and time again won't be a draw for their supporters in the south. (Yeah, I know Arizona isn't Yankee-land, but dammit, I got called a Yankee when I went down there and I am a lifelong Californian, so I think they're going to beat him with the Yankee stick, and it's going to HURT.)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. MS & GA are 59% white
They are absolutely in play with Obama as the candidate. And actually kind of easy to win. For the first time in 40 years, we can put a serious Presidential campaign in the south. The important reason to do that is to invigorate the local electorate and take our message to places we never had the time or money go to before. This is our chance to start turning this country around.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. How does Obama win Missisippi with 23% of the white vote in the general?
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 05:48 AM by jackson_dem
The black share of the vote automatically gets cut in half in the general because 90% are in our party. That doubles the black vote in our primaries but in the general it will be 10% nationally. He can't do what he did in the primaries in the general, even in states like South Carolina the black vote in the general will only be about 25%.

People are assuming he will turn out 100 million black voters (despite him not having done it in the primaries. He has gotten nearly universal support but hasn't produced higher turnout than the rise we are seeing among all groups) and ignoring he also does horrible with whites in the South and actually is losing whites by a substantial margin nationally. He has no shot in the South except maybe Florida, where he got a whole 22% of the white vote in the primary. Gore, a southerner, couldn't break 40% with southern whites. Obama sure as hell won't.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Strawman! There aren't even 100 million black PEOPLE, let alone VOTERS, in the U.S.!
In 2002, studies put the black population at 36 million. Take out those too young to vote and you've got an even smaller number.

The canard of "Obama will fail if he can't get 100 million black voters to the polls" is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't agree with you but the data shows your points should not be summarily dismissed
Hillary has a problem with male voters and Obama has lost the white vote (especially white working folks) big a by margin nationally. The reality of that is hidden by him winning 85-15% with blacks, which translates to giving Obama 14 points over Hillary in the typical state in the Democratic primary. Obama's problem may be more significant. The percentage of female voters in the general will stay about the same (slight decline, though) but the percentage of black voters will be cut in half (down from 20% in Democratic primaries to 10% in the general).

I think both can correct the problem and win. Obama's real problem isn't his struggles among white working folk but whether he can clear the security threshold against Mr. Security. If he can't do that nothing else matters. He will lose in a landslide. Hillary at least has a record of improving her poll numbers with rethugs and indies in general elections so she should do better later than she is now. Her negatives will also stay about the same since the rethugs have already attacked her for 16 years. McCain's will rise and by default she will rise in the polls against him, like Gore did against Bush (Gore gained 11 from this time of the year to November) and Bush against Kerry (Bush gained 11 points from this time of the year to November). McCain and Obama will both have higher negatives and it would remain to be seen whose will rise more. It will probably be Obama because he is even more undefined than McCain, Bush 00', and Kerry 04' ever were. He also has been hyped so much that he can't live up to the falsely high expectations folks have for him. He is supposed to be the new Lincoln+MLK+JFK (sometimes also RFK) but in reality he is a guy who would still be an unknown outside of Chicago if it weren't for sheer luck when he ran for the senate.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. The people of Louisiana voted for an Indian guy.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 05:41 AM by dkf
And the people of Texas voted for a woman Governor before Bushie. So did the people of Louisiana, before the Indian guy.


Bet that doesn't figure into your calculations.

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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yes and Obama got 23% of the white vote in Louisiana a couple days ago
Jindal transcended race in Louisiana; Obama won Louisiana because of race (84% of blacks and 77% of whites voted their race in LA and since blacks did so at a higher rate he won).
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Piyush Jindal won because he ran as a law and order,
build more prison, Affirmative Action is bad, friend of Bush, Republican. I don't think Jindal won because he transcended race. Actually, many Louisianians expect that he will keep minorities in their place.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. You're not a realist. You're a cynic.
And you're wrong. Women and African Americans have been elected statewide in multiple states in the South and Midwest.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. I typed this yesterday so that I wouldn't have to keep typing the main point
that the evidence just doesnt suggest what you are saying. Something is different this year - it is unique, and I don't think it would have been true even two years ago, and I don't know that it would be true three years from now - we are in a perfect political storm against the GOP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4570458&mesg_id=4570458
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. The way things are going you're likely right.
Welcome our new overlord.




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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. The question isn't whether misogyny & racism "still exist" but R they DECISIVE in this election?
On that question, one might try to look at the situation empirically rather than reasoning on the basis, essentially, of one's own gut instinct on the question (while not ignoring the latter). Neither the "south" nor "middle America" are monolithic. And the election is not in a vacuum, but likely going up against McCain.

Polls and anecdotal reports suggest that Hillary Clinton at the top of the Democratic ticket is JUST what the Repukes need to motivate their mass base of voters, many of whom are dispirited or are dissatisfied with McCain (for whatever reasons). Although it is unlikely, there might even be a breakaway candidacy (although I suspect McCain will have the smarts to have someone in the VP spot, possibly Huckabee, who will help stave off a 'spoiler' threat from the right). Remember that with all the grumbling, Repukes are apt to 'fall in line' when November rolls around.

Obama does not appear to engender the same kind of sentiment in the opposition, reflected in both polls and anecdotal evidence. "Racism" is a huge, difficult to fully grasp concept (or web of concepts) that does not just refer to one specific sentiment and certainly not to one specific kind of result. My own instinct on this (and I am being open about when I rely on instinct), looking at past elections and such, is that the greatest hard core of white chauvinism has already either given up on politics, or, more often, already gravitated to the Repuglican Party. (Indeed the term 'Repuglican', in response to decades of deployment of the term "Democrat Party" as an epithet, has become increasingly apt over time. There used to be a powerful Sargent/Javits wing of the Republican Party and even a Pete McCloskey/Paul Goodman wing (though small). These have become largely an at least benign memory.)

In fact, both opinion polls and results from elections and caucuses show significant support in "middle America" for Obama, including his successes within Illinois (which is where the proverbial 'Peoria' is located). Unless some kind of media feeding frenzy intervenes, I would expect Obama would carry ALL of the states Gore did (including FL) as well as some new ones, like Colorado and Ohio. Even if Florida is stolen (again), he could still manage to achieve victory.

One particular that is worth noting. It has been repeated ad nauseum that Latinos won't vote for a black candidate -- but for those who remember the 80s, Jesse Jackson was VERY competitive in the Latino community/ies. Remember that Hillary Clinton is EXTREMELY well-known and Obama a new face, and that memories of the Clinton years (of widespread prosperity) are quite positive for many. Hillary Clinton started out running well ahead of Obama among African Americans, and I think that was largely for the same reasons as the relative strength she has shown in some contests at least among working class whites and Latinos. Obama, however, has been getting stronger and stronger among the latter sets of voters, having apparently won the votes of an estimated 54% to HRC's 46% of Latino votes in the 'Potomac' primary. (For some reason the press spin that as a "tie", while much narrower victories, eg NH and NV are trumpeted as major. The power of spin can often transcend that of actual numbers, if people don't call them on it.)

In my arrogant opinion, Obama runs a strong campaign, and barring some major setback should be able to outpace Hillary Clinton, and, possibly with MORE EASE, John McCain. After all, he has had to come from a standing as low as 15% in the polls in many places until recently (including TX) to become at least competitive in the 'weaker' arenae and trouncing HRC in such contests as we've seen since Tsunami Tuesday.

Somehow we should not ASSUME that the more pessimistic analysis is NECESSARILY the more "realistic".
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Kucinich?
Kucinich can't even win a statewide election in his home state. Gimme a break.
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