Erica Jong: "Unfortunately the Hillary-Haters are in charge."

[Perry Logan]

Erica Jong: "Patriarchy: 1000, Hillary: 0"

"Ever since I wrote an article in the Washington Post ten days ago, I've been getting love letters from women and super-smart men and brickbats from the Hillary-Haters. Unfortunately the Hillary-Haters are in charge. They monopolize the networks, the newspapers, the talk shows -- both radio and TV. They are crossing their legs for fear of castration. They are wearing the body armor our troops never got. Or got too late to matter. They are determined that a woman will not prove herself competent as Commander in Chief.

What's their ammunition? Oh, it's simple. They call her Mrs. Clinton, not Ms. or Senator. They pull out those nutcrackers in the shape of her supposed thighs. They complain about her ankles -- too thick. They complain on Fox TV that "White women are the problem" -- (idiot boy Kristol, the brain-damaged scion of Irving who rose through nepotism like our unelected "president"). Then they say she has "baggage" -- which could mean wrinkles, or her husband, or her daughter Chelsea whom they say she is "pimping." Then they say she never divorced Bill -- as if it's anyone's business. Then they moon over Obama's rhetorical style. Then they make it appear that she's a drone or a worker bee and has no royal jelly. Or else she has royal jelly and is queen bee. And that's her problem.

If Bill defends her, he's a pimp. If he doesn't, he's a creep. If Chelsea campaigns, it's cynical. If Obama trots out those cute little girls Michelle gave birth to, he's a family man. If Michelle attacks Hillary, it's news. If Hillary attacks Michelle -- well she can't because that would be racist....

Let me tell you about the Hillary-Haters who fill my inbox, they can't spell. They also believe in witchcraft. They believe HRC boils eye of newt with unborn baby's hair and little Jewish children not yet circumcised. They think she had a child with Vince Foster (even though Chelsea looks much like Bill and even his mother), then murdered him. They think she will leave Iraq, not leave Iraq, give us universal health care, not give us universal health care, sanction the killing of fetuses, not sanction the killing of fetuses, defend Israel, not defend Israel, end the Death Tax, not end the Death tax.

Honey, they are all mixed up. But they know they hate. And not just her -- but lots of people and things and ideas.

Ho hum. We've seen this all before in the United States of Amnesia (Gore Vidal's brilliant phrase). Remember Geraldine Ferraro -- tarred with the brush of her Italian-American husband, whom they claimed was a mafioso? Remember Bella Abzug, attacked for her hats (which covered too large a brain)? Remember Eleanor Roosevelt, attacked for her teeth? Remember Victoria Woodhull (the first woman to run for president) "hanged" as a whore? Remember Emma Goldman rode out of town on a rail -- for being Jewish, liking to dance and supporting the rights of the working classes?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/erica-jong/patriarchy1000-hillary_b_86408.html

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[ShortnFiery]

8. As a woman who fought sexism within the Military during the 1970s and 80s, I'm ashamed of HRC

and her advisers seemingly playing-on, IMO, "the quintessential victim" meme. :thumbsdown:

When I was a young woman officer, it was no secret that many of both my senior and subordinate male soldiers RESENTED having to show equivalent respect to women in authority positions.

We (myself and many AD military women) did not overcome these "very real" resentments by COMPLAINING about our situation.

Playing "the victim" does not work to intimidate people into showing you deference unless you are OPENLY and UNFAIRLY singled out.

HRC & Co., stop complaining and actually SHOW us your strength to MOTIVATE and UNITE the electorate? Going to "the victim" well is NOT going to work this time. :(

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

63. I also was AD, and it was a miasma of misogyny. I was sexually assaulted on the job, by a ranking

NCO.

I wonder if the fact that I reported it and underwent weeks of questioning from my Company's first sergeant and CO, all implying I'd some how asked for it, meant I was playing the victim.

They finally changed my assigned duty area away from him when I said that I would be willing to sit in the same room with him and repeat my (victim?) allegations.

Then, he went on to assault an officer's wife, and that's when he was all of a sudden charged under UCMJ.

Maybe I should have just bucked up and shut up, instead of pointing out that of which I'd been a "victim".

:shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

65. That's EXACTLY my point. If there is an instance of such a crime, report it.

However, there's absolutely nothing positive in the constant IMO "yammering" that it's OK to intimidate others because "the system is unfair."

Yes, the system is unfair and with regard to sexism, the Military mindset moves about as fast as the tectonics plates. HOWEVER, and this is very important, "no one will give you extra points if all you do is complain."

Show us your skillful LEADERSHIP Ms. Clinton? We already empathize that the system is "GAMED" in many respects (sexist, racist etc. etc.). It's time for Senator Clinton to PROVE herself a worthy contender via *results* not rhetoric. :shrug:

[metamars]

181. As a man who never fought sexism, I'm also ashamed of HRC!

Actually, the less said about HRC by me, the better.*

Instead, I want to draw people's attention to the calm, cool, rational comparison between Obama and HRC, done by Stanford Law Professor Lessig, at:

http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html


Professor Lessig's web site is http://lessig.org/
You can view Lessig's analysis with Miro: http://www.getmiro.com


I wish this would go viral, because it's very insightful.

Hint, hint.



* Alright, maybe one thing - and that is, I think she'd be more than willing to cheat Obama out of delegates, if she could get away with it.

[NMMNG]

11. Why should a woman's title have to reflect her marital status?

A man's doesn't.




This whole article reeked of feminist sour grapes.

And when people complain about racism towards Obama is that "racist sour grapes"?

[ClintonTyree]

67. I agree 100%...

and I'm a dude. That "Mrs." crap means that women are men's chattel, in my opinion. I don't want my daughter to be "Mrs." anybody! Not that I don't want her to get married (IF that's what she wants), but as far as assuming her husband's name.....well, she knows how I feel about that. It's going to be a VERY open-minded man that weds my daughter, that's all I can say. ;)

[stahbrett]

68. I've not really heard "Mrs. Clinton" and/or "Mr. Obama"

I have heard, in the press, only "Barack", "Hillary", "Obama", "Clinton", "Barack Obama", "Hillary Clinton", "Senator Obama", "Senator Clinton".

[robbedvoter]

117. Actually, NY Times et al, ALWAYS use the MR, MRS with their names.

[stahbrett]

120. I did say "heard". :-) (eom)

[Name removed]

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[lachattefolle]

83. It is ridiculous to call Senator Clinton "Mrs. Clinton" because she

has earned the appellation of Senator. I don't think my female doctor would like to hear herself referred to as Mrs. XXX. And just try calling a female military officer Mrs. XXX! Calling Hillary Mrs. Clinton instead of Senator Clinton is a clear attempt to minimize her accomplishments. Period.

[boricua79]

193. and when she leave office and becomes a private citizen

what's the formal title to use with her?

I was HONESTLY taught to call older/married women Missus or Mrs. (short-hand).

[Cameron27]

84. Imagine having to ask that question on

a supposed progressive message board. I guess that's one of those pesky issues included in the "excesses of the 60's and 70's" that we've been warned about.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. It shouldn't and it doesn't. Ms is perfectly acceptable unless you prefer Mrs. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

18. "Feminist sour grapes"???

Oops -- must have wandered into Free Republic.

[onehandle]

22. DU = Free Republic. nt

[robbedvoter]

79. Probably worse, since, I am told, they are bysy attacking McCain, Huckabee

over there.

[provis99]

163. oh yes. DU =Free Republic

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :puke:

[boricua79]

74. no, you wandered into your own issues

I have no problems with feminism.

I have problems with women with "resentment issues" masquerading as feminists.

And that's why I call it feminist sour grapes.

Clarified?

[theHandpuppet]

95. I think your cliches betray you

Not buying your excuses. Try selling them to someone else.

[LisaL]

50. Well, Obama is married with children.

Are you suggesting he should be referred to as Mr. Obama?

[boricua79]

75. yeah, what's wrong with that?

I would call him Mr. Obama...or Senator Obama...I wouldn't dare call him Barack unless I had his confidence.

[robbedvoter]

52. That you never even heard of "MS" speaks volumes...

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[robbedvoter]

77. The feminist movement. And French is M, Melle. MS magazine? Rings a bell?

Erica Jong - you're so right! This IS the fight!

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[For PaisAn]

98. You make the point yourself,

the fact that women have been differentiated according to their marital status and men have never been. The author and many of us do not want to be labeled according to our marital status. Get it now?

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[nonconformist]

196. Wrong. You were taught wrong.

Miss is for unmarried women

Mrs. for married

Ms. is INTERCHANGABLE, and can be used for a married or single woman

[WinkyDink]

78. SEN. or MS. GET IT? Women are not defined ANYMORE per their marital status. But you knew that.

[MADem]

96. She was Attorney Rodham until the 'patriarchy' bullied her into changing her name. NT

[hiaasenrocks]

104. What about "Mrs. President Bill Clinton"?

That term covers The Clintons' campaign nicely, should they win the presidency.

[BlackVelvet04]

150. What about you

just go to hell.

[Bitwit1234]

111. How do you really know what his character is.

THE MSM is not allowed to give us any information on him. All we get is he gives good speeches and smiles a lot. Oh and yes the COD PIECE group really support him.

[defendandprotect]

115. Therefore, should Obama be Mrs. Obama . . . ??? !!!!

We have no distinction for married males ---

and there should be no distinction for married females, with out without children.

The appropriate title should be SENATOR or MS --

There should be NO title designation which wouldn't also apply to Obama ---

Meanwhile, neither am I interested in Senator Clinton as president ---
but it's not about the hateful stuff that is recited in the article because I understand
that stuff does happen.

It's about Clinton being DLC --- in fact, being in DLC leadership.

Nor am I a fan of Obama -- so I'm looking for another pathway to preserving conscience.

[L0oniX]

128. Most women would have divorced after the first affare. After the second time, every NORMAL woman

would get a divorce.

[LadyVT]

140. 80% of men making over $75K a year have cheated on their wives...

so there are a whole lot of "abnormal" women out there.

[LadyVT]

141. Great essay--thanks so much for posting it!

[L0oniX]

186. So you saying that women will stay with their cheating husband as long as he makes big money?

Isn't that sort of like being a whore? It's no wonder that some men would rather not get married and concentrate on making big money so they can just hire a woman to do whatever.

[LostinVA]

188. What a nasty, disgusting comment

[BlackVelvet04]

148. sure

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. Hey, I saw newt. had both his eyes.

So Erica's wrong about that.

And that stuff about Emma Goldman, I don't think they had train service at that time.

[ProSense]

3. Erica Jong on Hillary

I know Hillary's record. She has made some whopping big mistakes -- but she admits them and she has shown an incredible capacity for change and growth. I trust change. I trust growth. The presidency, JFK said, is not a very good place to make new friends. Nor is it a place for on the job training. It is not one job but many. It takes passion, ideas, vision, eloquence, but it also takes experience, administration and seasoned judgment. Hillary has these things. Obama is as untested and untried as George W. Bush was (and Gore was not).

more

So Obama is "untested and untried as George W. Bush" and Hillary has "made some whopping big mistakes..."

Hillary is not a victim

[boricua79]

5. if she's so tested and veted and experienced

how come she made those whopping big mistakes, and the "untested" Obama didn't.

Somebody has the american people's pulse, and it ain't Hillary.

And people saying that he's untested completely ignore that he's been in Capitol Hill for a while now. I think he's shaken enough hands to know who is who and to have contacts. If he has Kerry and Kennedy on his side, trust me, he won't have a problem getting things done. And you could be a totally new President, and people will open up their bank accounts and network contacts for you.

The whole "he doesn't know people to get things done" meme is such fake bullshit.

[BlackVelvet04]

151. People who bother to take a stand and who actually have to vote

tend to make more mistakes than cowards who vote Present or are a no vote.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

166. Uh, 'cause he lacks experience?

Could that be why you claim BO is perfect?

[Perry Logan]

6. Thanks. This proves Erica is not a mindless Hillbot.

[JTFrog]

9. Big Mistakes... AND admits NOTHING, showing she is incapable of even the first step toward change.

"If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from," Mrs. Clinton told an audience in Dover, N.H., in a veiled reference to two rivals for the nomination, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina.

[Perry Logan]

12. Keep your legs crossed. You'll be all right.

[JTFrog]

13. What a stupid comment. No surprise there. You have anything to say

about what I posted or just going to make misandrist comments?

[speedoo]

119. Exactly. Erica Jong could not be more wrong. nt

nt

[L0oniX]

129. She should have divorced Bill like every normal woman would do after several acts of adultery.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

167. Who the hell cares?

Not me. All I want is someone who can be an effective leader.

[Perry Logan]

4. "They are crossing their legs for fear of castration." Sounds like DU to me.

[ShortnFiery]

14. Wait! You can't have it both ways Perry. You can't censor people for using negative sexist ...

stereotypes about HRC YET turn around and glibly quip that HRC is *feared* as being capable of emasculating her opponents?!? :crazy: That's just, IMO, freaking BIZARRE ... it makes absolutely ZERO sense? :wow: :wtf:

[Perry Logan]

15. I see no contradiction. The stereotypes are what feed the fear.

[ShortnFiery]

16. OMG! The hypocrisy is so thick that you could cut it with a knife.

So you say that we should "keep our legs crossed"?!? How about you ask HRC's operatives to stop playing roles that are seemingly a cross between "Serial Mom" and "Fatal Attraction?"

I'm a woman who fought sexism that was "in my face." I'm here to tell you that I'm ashamed of all this *complaining* instead of HRC showing us that she's a truly strong and viable candidate.

I've said it before and I honestly mean it: IMO, HRC is an anti-feminist. :thumbsdown:

[tigereye]

80. sometimes complaining (about problems) is being strong and fighting

sexism. Being tough as well as being compassionate is being a feminist, thank you.

[Strelnikov_]

53. "I see no contradiction"

Gee, didn't see that one coming.

[VotesForWomen]

85. *They* (the sexists) are the ones who think it, for christ's sake. of course you can say it. nt

[Cameron27]

94. Tucker Carlson

actually made that comment about keeping his legs crossed.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

10. Good article ... thanks for posting.

"Unfortunately the Hillary-Haters are in charge. They monopolize the networks, the newspapers, the talk shows -- both radio and TV."

[BeyondGeography]

17. Was the patriarchy in charge when she was being pushed as inevitable

and racking up endorsements from all over the political establishment? And, yes, most of those endorsements came from MEN who are in power, black and white.

Or are they now in charge because she's losing?

[GodlessBiker]

19. Very true. This article is a result of someone in shock over events that have not gone her way.

[Perry Logan]

21. And this is a silly ad hominem attack. You cannot read Erica Jong's mind.

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. Yet, she's perfectly comfortable peering into the souls of all those who support Obama.

That said, I support Clinton on policy - but the table is piled to overflowing with gender cards.

[flordehinojos]

49. ignorance prevails. it seems. and erica jong points it out.

but as always wisdom is appreciated by only the very few ... perhaps that too is why the remocrat is rising ... though his train will reach the white house without jong's vote or mine.

[GodlessBiker]

71. Are you suggesting that he is more of a Republican than she?

I think you will find that they voted in the Senate the same way about 90% of the time.

[flordehinojos]

133. i am asserting that hillary is a true blue democrat.

i am also asserting that barack obama has lots of republican ideology infiltrated into his thinking and his rhetoric.

[Alcibiades]

156. That's called triangulation

And its more about winning elections than anything substantive. The master of triangulation is a prominent supporter of Senator Clinton, and ended welfare as we know it.

[GodlessBiker]

187. I read that he received a 100% liberal rating and she was in the 80s. How does that fit in?

Are Republicans liberal now?

Moreover, I would think that the Iraq and Iran war votes were the biggest examples of Republican ideology creeping into her thinking.

[Perry Logan]

20. They have asserted themselves, and now she's losing. Long live the patriarchy!

[BeyondGeography]

23. The patriarchy forced her to ignore small states and the grass roots

forced her to overpay Mark Penn and an army of consultants while her opponent was paying his team far less and constructing an army of unpaid volunteers. Forced her to miscalculate how delegates are actually counted.

Erica might benefit from this patriarchy-free analysis of why she's actually losing:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/13/18513/4342

[Alcibiades]

158. The patriarchy forced her to ignore the base

She's running as a moderate in a Democratic primary. Not a good idea. (But then, so is Obama. I miss Edwards and Kucinich.)

[NorthernSpy]

25. THANK you!

No complaints from Jong or Steinem or Morgan when Hillary was being rammed down our throats as Ms. Inevitable -- by that very same media apparatus and her political machine.

[Perry Logan]

24. Look at it this way. She's been attacked for laughing...AND for crying. That's just weird.

[ProSense]

26. Look at it this way: She, Bill and a village have attacked Obama as a fairy tale and cult leader. nt

[Perry Logan]

28. Is there a point here?

[ProSense]

30. Read it again! n/t

[Perry Logan]

32. OK. Still looks like bullshit, though.

[ProSense]

34. As does the OP and your defense of it! n/t

[MADem]

103. .../\...

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[McCamy Taylor]

171. No, Bill said that Obama was not truthful. That is a legitimate criticism. Attacking laughter/crying

is corporate media bullshit. It would be analogous to attacking Obama's hair or his ears (which do kind of stick out).

It is never unreasonable in a campaign to say that you think your opponent is not being honest. All Obama had to do was say "Yes, I am so being honest. This is what I said."

However, Bill made a good case about words vs. actions, which is what got Obama and his supporters so steamed that they had to jump up and down and cry "unfair"---unfair as in Hillary has a twice elected ex-president on her side.

[ShortnFiery]

29. No it's not "attacked" - it may have helped her in NH. Every candidate is under a microscope.

That does not equate to everyone who has something less than positive being appropriately labeled that particular "candidate-HATER." That's what's weird, i.e., every time a candidate is criticized to throw up the but "I'm a victim" meme. :(

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. It's only weird if you misdiagnose the problem as Erica Jong did.

She's attacked for being insincere and manipulative - not because the he-man-woman-haters-club indiscriminately attacks women candidates.

They attack her because she's a Democrat and a Clinton.

[Coexist]

27. So, Erica would feel Condoleeza's pain if she were running? Bay Buchanan's?

and now that we only have three threads each, is there going to be tag-team spam?

[Perry Logan]

31. Yes, and there would be these cute little nutcrackers.

[Coexist]

45. Hillary Clinton has repeatedly stated that she can take it,

that she is tough and battle tested.

Women running for office in less progressive countries have much worse than a Spencer's Gift-type idiocy to contend with.

and it is not because she is a woman, she is a democrat - media obsessions:

John Kerry - manicure-gate
John Edwards - hair-gate
Howard Dean - scream-gate

Women get attacked for personal reasons, men get attacked for personal reasons.
Welcome to politics.

[NorthernSpy]

33. Hate? Well, people have been saying that Obama will be assassinated...

And just last night, right here on DU one poster threatened a "backlash" against blacks for supporting Obama.


Top that, Erica.

[Perry Logan]

35. Don't worry. He's a guy, so it'll be OK.

[ShortnFiery]

37. One thread centered around "the claim" that the KKK supported Obama (LIE)

as well as a poster glibly commenting that he would not be surprised if Obama were, in fact, a member of the KKK. Further, Obama would be the one wearing "the black sheet." :thumbsdown:

[Perry Logan]

39. Yes, but if you want to change the subject, please start your own thread.

[ShortnFiery]

44. No, this all boils down to CIVIL (human) Rights. We all have a cross to bear, yet

MOST of us continue to prove the bigots wrong with "leading by example" over complaining that the system is unfair. Yes, it is and we are all struggling to make it better - it's time for HRC to truly "prove herself" not continue to attempt intimidation of the M$M, the electorate or the super-delegates.

[MADem]

105. Some anonymous asswipe on DU is the EQUIVALENT of Jong??

Wow, that's some fancy logic you're shopping, there!!!

Why should "Erica" have to "top" that?

Why should she even respond to such a racist diatribe?

And most importantly, why would you EXPECT her to?

Your suggestion that the commentary of some ignorant fuckstick on a small message board, who hopefully has been banned, is the equivalent of that of a writer of world renown is just pisspoor thinking on your part.

Tsk, tsk.

[BlackVelvet04]

153. What some yo-yo says on D.U. isn't quite on the same level

as the press saying that shit.

Get some perspective.

[THUNDER HANDS]

36. OFFS

Here, I'll sum up the article....

"wah wah, wahwahwahwah, wah wah, Clinton, wah wah, wah wah wah, media, wah wah wah, men, wah wah wah."

[Perry Logan]

38. Could be a reading comprehension problem?

[ShortnFiery]

40. No Perry. You just can NOT have it both ways. It's time for HRC "shine" or get off center stage.

All this complaining is NOT going to either intimidate the M$M more nor force the super-delegates to SELECT HRC as our Democratic Nominee. :shrug:

[Perry Logan]

42. The point would be...oh never mind.

[JVS]

72. you forgot

"wahwahwah wah, men, wah wahwah wah, self-hating women"

[BlackVelvet04]

154. ........

[GumboYaYa]

41. This article demonstrates some very dangerous thinking IMO...

Hillary's supporters, and perhaps the campaign itself, are starting to converge legitimate support of Obama with the dingbat misogyny of the right.

For example, in this series of sentences: "They complain on Fox TV that "White women are the problem" -- (idiot boy Kristol, the brain-damaged scion of Irving who rose through nepotism like our unelected "president"). Then they say she has "baggage" -- which could mean wrinkles, or her husband, or her daughter Chelsea whom they say she is "pimping." Then they say she never divorced Bill -- as if it's anyone's business. Then they moon over Obama's rhetorical style."

Notice how broad and expansive her use of "they" is.

It seems almost inevitable that Hillary will lose the popular vote and delegate count at this point. It is really scary to think how the campaign and her supporters will react to that given that these types of articles get so much credence already.

[Perry Logan]

43. Erica's the one getting the illiterate e-mails. And the Obama people have turned DU into a cesspool.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Right, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with HRC running a poor campaign?

That's part of your candidate's "perception problem" = HRC is seen as the quintessential political victim. :(

[Perry Logan]

54. I simply reject most of your assumptions--that it was a poor campaign for example.

Or that she is perceived as a victim. These are things anti-Hillarites say over and over. But it doesn't make them true.

[Political Heretic]

116. People on both sides have turned DU into a cesspool.

[ellisonz]

130. "And the Obama people have turned DU into a cesspool."

:rofl:

[Alcibiades]

160. What about the Edwards people?

He's left, but we're still here to poop in the cesspool!

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. Starting? Some of them have been doing it since the beginning.

There is no place in this world-view for principled opposition to their candidate.

[McCamy Taylor]

172. Earth to Obama camp: you know how White candidates used to get votes from people afraid of Blacks?

Well, your male candidate is now getting votes from people afraid of women. No, it ain't pretty, but them is the facts. Obama is the Great Male Hope for a lot of men (and some women) in this country. That doesn't mean that he is sexist, but it does mean that the votes of sexist people will carry him to victory.

Some prominent left winger in the sixties predicted that the country would be ready for an African-American president before it was ready for a woman president. Given the hysteria in some circles of the Democratic Party and the general public over the thoughts of a woman president, I think that person was right.

[TheWarIzaLie]

176. What a bunch of crap...

Obama is just a superior candidate who connects w/ people unlike Hillary who is so obviously a scripted fake.

[stillrockin]

47. Her gender is irrelevant. She's a corporate shill.

[paulk]

113. another deep and well thought out anti Hillary post

from someone who's hidden their profile.

Imagine that!

[Orsino]

48. Jong worries about the hate leveled at her favorite...

...and ignores that directed against anyone with even pretensions to populism. She saved no outrage for the media marginalization of Kucinich and Edwards.

[C_U_L8R]

51. I believe she's totally missing the point...

it's all about the quality of ideas.
for example....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5FvyGydc8no&feature=related

: - ))))))

[Binka]

55. Jesus Christ I Now Have To Cross Erica Off My Dance Card

As a woman who came of age in the 70's I once adored Erica, now, well she can kiss my ass. This rambling and disjointed invective is a load of hooey and crap. Hey Erica people like Obama. Many people do not like Hillary. Why the fuck is that so hard to get?

[Perry Logan]

56. You Obama people are a bitter lot.

[Binka]

57. Get Off The Cross Perry I Am Not Bitter

I point out that people like Obama and now I'm bitter? :wtf: Stop spewing RW memes dude you'll have a stroke. You aren't going to bait me with this trite and vapid response. It's Valentines day I am HAPPY!!!!!

[mtnsnake]

61. Yes, many of them are. n/t

[ellisonz]

132. Because we're winning?

Hillary's March 4th strategy is really starting to look like a Spring Offensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Offensive

And so we're already beginning to get:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_legend

The stab-in-the-back legend (German: Dolchstoßlegende (help·info), literally "Dagger stab legend") refers to a social myth and persecution-propaganda theory popular in Germany in the period after World War I through World War II. It attributed Germany's defeat to a number of domestic factors instead of failed militarist geostrategy. Most notably, the theory proclaimed that the public had failed to respond to its "patriotic calling" at the most crucial of times and some had even intentionally "sabotaged the war effort."

[SaveAmerica]

97. I think this article is about the idiot Republicans who are true Hillary Haters:

The ones who've spent the past 16 or so years being force fed Clinton Hate from Right-Wing 'news shows' (or more likely, they happily belly up to the pig trough for their daily helping of hate). If I'm not mistaken, that's the Hillary Hater she's talking about and this thread is the exact reason I've been against Democrats calling other Democrats Hillery Haters here at DU. There's being a Hillary Hater because you've been taught to be that way, then there's being against Hillary's candidacy for President because you've informed yourself of her background.

[mtnsnake]

58. Thanks for posting it, Perry.

Awesome

[Rock_Garden]

59. Hillary haters remind me of the Salem witch trials. K&R!

[Raejeanowl]

60. Please Stop Misusing "Meme"

It's become a really tired cliche' for Obama-ites to use in this campaign and it doesn't even mean what people apparently think it means.

[QC]

70. The Obamazombies dismiss every criticism as a "meme" now. n/t

[D23MIURG23]

142. Thats because they usually are

If I had a dime for every instance of the following I've heard I'd be rich:

- Non-support or critique of Hillary = Misogyny
- Non-support or critique of Hillary = Rush Limbaugh knuckle dragging
- Support of Obama = Being a cult member
- Obama supporters = Haters

These aren't well thought out or informative critiques, they are (except in the case of the third statement, which is wholly untrue) conditionally true statements which are grossly misapplied ad nauseum all over this forum, often in the form of a one-liner meant to stifle a valid point.

You can call that a "meme", but I think "4th rate propaganda" or "authoritarian thought vaccine" are equivalent or even better terms.

[DemGa]

62. Long term effects of the right-wing hate campaign against the Clintons

It's so funny (and alarming) to hear Obama claim he's been through it with the Clintons -- just utter nonsense.

It's been a shameful and dishonest display watching Sen Obama embrace and validate right-wing attacks on Clinton; but be assured, it will come back to him. And kissing Republicans' ass will not blunt the attack.

[susankh4]

64. You got that right!

They are already plotting his demise..... His plan to unilaterally attack Pakistan. His plan to cozy up to Iran's muslim leader.

If anyone thinks Barack has been battle tested... they ain't seen nuthin. The Clintons have afforded him the utmost respect. Too bad for him. To bad for the Dems. Because he *thinks* he has been through it. And he has no clue.

[ShortnFiery]

66. Another worn out meme: Everyone who attacks the Clintons are either freepers or right wing hacks.

:eyes:

[QC]

69. And the most worn out meme of them all...

is the "any criticism of me or my candidate is a meme" meme.

[ShortnFiery]

88. Oh come now QC. The Clintons have played "perpetual victimhood" for too long - it's not working.

:thumbsdown:

[rodeodance]

91. Listening to more RW memes I see.

[ShortnFiery]

92. See, that's the problem, every negative evaluation of your candidate is flatly *dismissed* as RW.

It does not make for a productive exchange of information. :(

[D23MIURG23]

161. Ever seen a child plug their ears and scream "LALALA Im not listening"

When you try to tell them something they don't want to hear?

:hi:

[rodeodance]

90. Obama supporters need to stop using RW memes on DU.

[D23MIURG23]

157. Clinton supporters need to stop assimilating RW thought patterns

Like mindless dismissal of criticism by way of cheap thought vaccine.

[Beausoir]

81. K & R for the truth.

[HeraldSquare212]

82. When did war become a feminist principle? nt

[Enrique]

87. the war is just an excuse for the Hillary haters

just like everything else.

[HeraldSquare212]

89. Go ahead, be dismissive, think of killing women and children as a minor issue.

Some day you'll recognize women and children who don't live in the US as people too.

[Enrique]

109. it's a real tragedy used as an excuse

it's shameful.

[D23MIURG23]

169. Its a real tragedy that your candidate helped enable.

She doesn't even see that vote as a mistake. Your trivialization of this issue is shameful.

[f the letter]

102. Are you serious?

You believe that people think the war is minor compared to the prospect of President Hillary Clinton? This is not an _excuse_ this is the reason. Do you think that Stalin's treatment of his people is just an excuse for the Stalin haters?

[Jed Dilligan]

110. Seamless logic there. nt

[D23MIURG23]

168. Thats right. I am against the war because of my hatred of Hillary

This:



Has nothing to do with it.

[JVS]

182. Come on, don't you remember us sitting in front of the TV drinking beer in the months...

leading up to this war and say "Oh YEAH. This war is going to fucking ROCK!"

Then Hillary voted for it and we were all like "She ruined our lovely war! Now that a woman has voted for it, it's impure!"

[JVS]

183. This might surprise you, but Hillary Clinton is not the center of the universe.

Now go get a drink of water and let that sink in.

[Cameron27]

86. Thanks Perry

K&R

[hiaasenrocks]

99. We've heard all that whining before. Yawn.

[Ano Genitus]

100. I would love, love, love to see a woman President.

But I would prefer she was one with whom I had a more substantial number of political beliefs in common.

[f the letter]

101. This is crap :

Do you really think that men won't vote for senator Clinton because her ankles are thick? Jesus Christ! That is some serious gender hatred on your part, not mine.
i won'te vote for her because of her support of the IWR and Kyl-Lieberman, her support for amending the Constitution to prevent burning a flag, and many many other right-of-center issues. Not her fucking thighs.

What drivel.

[robbedvoter]

118. It's part of the "criticisms" levelled at her by say MSGOP - that bastion of free

speech you guys love so much, just as they gloss over the "noble" Obama.
No one didn't vote for Gore because of the earth tone suits - but the disparity in coverage, got W some ignorant votes.

[question everything]

106. And many of them are on DU

K&R

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

107. Is it possible that any of the shots she takes are deserved? Is it possible that

every presidential candidate, regardless of gender, has since the beginning of this country's history gotten all kinds of shit slung at him or her? Is it possible that she's just too hawkish and too pro-death penalty for some people to vote for?
It would be foolish to suggest that there is no gender bias, race bias, age bias, beltway bias, pro-status-quo bias in the media, but does that mean she's worthy of the nomination or that media biases don't hurt other candidates, too? Is it possible she takes hits because she made a very important political calculation, which has now turned out to be a massive miscalculation, and which has contributed greatly to a war that has cost a million lives and billions of dollars...and that she's tried to finesse that decision in a way that looks phony and hypocritical? Isn't it much more likely that if she'd been anti-IWR or at least read the NIE she'd be in a far stronger political position?
If feminists don't evaluate her only on her deeds, rather than covering for them and blaming others for her fall in popularity, who will?

[BooScout]

108. Brilliant!

:applause:

[bagrman]

112. Now I just heard Clinton on the radio talking about the poor people ,

being stuck with sky high interest rates on their credit cards. Am I mistaken didn't she vote for the new credit law that will permanently cause some people to be surfs?

[connecticut yankee]

114. Not Vince Foster

Webster Hubbell

[Manifestor_of_Light]

121. County Clerk committed a misdemeanor by not fulfilling his duties.

I tried to register a declaration of common law marriage, and the clerk of the county tore up THREE FORMS while typing, because I REFUSED to change my name.

I asked him "Please show me in the Texas Family Code where it says I have to change my name to my husband's name". He couldn't, because there is no place in there that says that I have to change my name.

The county clerk committed a misdemeanor by not carrying out the lawful duties of his office. I could have gone to a grand jury and filed charges against him.


I never changed my name because I didn't want to wake up one day and realize I was "Mrs. Asshole" and get a divorce!! I was still married to an asshole, I just didn't have his name except for insurance purposes, since insurance companies don't accept a wife with a different name. Now I don't have health insurance and I'm not married.

I've always kept my real name, the one I got from my father, that I'm proud of.

If you don't like it, deal with it. It's all about ownership by men.

If you think you have wandered into Free Republic, please go back under your rock and into your cave, you troglodytes.

[Alcibiades]

155. Insurance companies don't have a problem with the name thing

anymore, at least.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

122. I don't like Obama OR Hillary.

Because they are too conservative to be progressive Democrats. They are bought off by corporations, and little better than Republicans.

NOT because of their race or gender.

[mitchum]

123. Oh, Jong wrote a sequel... "Fear Of Foundering"

[MasonJar]

124. i am determined to read no more anti-democrat threads. From now on if

a poster turns a thread posted for some other reason than GDpolitics into a despise our candidates forum, I am going to inform the monitors. Y'all are beginning to make me sick. Take on the GOPers who have virtually destroyed our Constitution and our liberties and our Congress and our court system, but stay away from disparaging our fine democratic candidates, who are expending endless time and energy and personal emterprise, trying to represent us and all Americans. Stomp on McCain; he deserves it for the Bush kiss if for nothing else, but as Thumper's mom so eloquently demanded, when it comes to Hill and Obama only good things get printed.

[robbedvoter]

137. "anti-democrat"? Interesting expression. Also, OP has to do mostly with MSM

you know, the media we used to rail at on DU - remember that? media whores? MSGOP? Bueler? Anyone?

[femrap]

125. K and R

I so enjoyed reading that. Thx for posting. I sent it to a bunch of friends.

Anyone else remember reading 'Fear of Flying?' What a coming of age book. Damn, I think I'll go read it again.

For some reason, I remember drinking ice tea w/ vodka when I read it???? I have never done that since!

[DrFunkenstein]

126. Jong Has Come Unzipped...She Might as Well Compare Clinton to Holocaust Survivors

Instead of dealing with the legitimate concerns about the New York Senator's record (militarism, secrecy, shady connections), she makes an argument with the most absurd straw men she can find. It is insulting to our intelligence.

Why doesn't she talk about Denise Rich (Marc Rich's wife) and her copious donations? Or how about Clinton's consistent sabre-rattling AFTER her IWR vote? What about her systematic attempts to squelch the media EVEN WHEN the coverage was fawning over her campaign's discipline and inevitability? How about her refusal to release any information on the very "experience" that she is running on? How about her insistence on keeping nuclear weapons "on the table" even when dealing with a handful of terrorists in populated areas?

Talk about amnesia. Emma Goldman was a fucking PACIFIST and opposed the very militarism that Clinton is touting as evidence that she is "competent as Commander in Chief."

Jong, who has ties to the Clinton campaign, says that the media "moon" over Obama's rhetorical style, as if that were all he offers, knowing full well that he would have been shot down long ago if he didn't have sound policies backing him up. Instead, she thinks she is doing the Clintons a service by sounding like a college freshman from the 60's after reading Simone de Beauvoir for the first time.

She gives it all away with her abuse of "they," which is even more vague than "some people." Cheap and unworthy of someone who pops up on feminist readng lists for college freshman across the country.

[mimitabby]

127. good essay, thanks

[rhett o rick]

131. I resent that everyone that supports Obama is a Hillary hater. Grow up. nm

[robbedvoter]

134. Obviously, that was not the point of the OP article. "in control" doesn't refer

to you guys, bona fide Obama supporters, but mostly to media whores who PRETEND to support Obama (that would be everyone on MSGOP except KO), and a few posters here who use words like "feminazis" - see beginning of the replies here.

[IndianaGreen]

143. All of these affluent "feminists" that belong to an era long past

May I remind Erica Jong that some of those women she mentioned, Eleanor Roosevelt and Emma Goldman, would have opposed Hillary's warmongering Senate votes, and would be appalled at her record.

[high density]

144. This is so silly

Hillary Clinton was the inevitable candidate for about a year, up until last month. She had the media fawning all over her. Now the tides have turned, along with the news coverage (duh), and this is coming as a shock to the Clinton folks?! Jeeze. Have any of these Clinton folks ever been through a primary season before?!

I'm getting tired of this non-argument being trotted out against Obama, which is "What does he stand for?!" Well, educate yourself. That's your duty as a voter. Plenty of others have done it. Disqualifying a candidate just because their "brand" is newer isn't flying for me. Wes Clark went through the same shit in 2003.

[Baby Snooks]

145. First NOW, then Maya Angelou and now Erica Jong...

Why is it that the "women's libbers" cannot resist, as Erica Jong does here, resorting to the "feminists must support Hillary" manifesto when in fact Hillary Clinton is an insult to feminists with regard to her husband.

Bill Clinton was abused so in essence it's okay for him to abuse women according to Hillary Clinton.

That more than anything sums up Hillary Clinton. And at this point, it sums up NOW and Maya Angelou and Erica Jong and quite a few others.

[LostinVA]

189. "Women's libbers" -- OMFG

[chknltl]

146. No Ms Jong. I am not in charge nor am I a "Hillary Hater"

I reserve the distinction of being in charge to: WE THE PEOPLE and I further reserve the title of "Hillary Hater" to koolaid drinkers who call themselves Republicans. Senator Clinton is my last choice among the Democratic hopefuls but she is not someone I hate! I hate bush, I hate the bush regime I hate those who would destroy Democracy. I am one of MANY who feel that Senator Clinton would make a fine President...let me rephrase that: I KNOW THAT SENATOR CLINTON WOULD MAKE A GREAT PRESIDENT!!!

That said, I am at this point a supporter of Senator Obama. I am not some monster out to destroy Democracy as some of my fellow DUers would have folks believe. I feel that Senator Obama is the better candidate but just because I feel this way it does not mean I won't be there for Senator Clinton should she get the nomination. This damned wedge being driven between the Democratic party is one of fear...who historically has used FEAR as a way to divide WE THE PEOPLE??? EXACTLY!!! We are on the same side here my fellow DUers, we are on the side of DEMOCRACY and I want you to know that should Senator Clinton get the nomination you can count on me! Deep in my heart I know I can count on you as well should Senator Obama get the nomination... if we can not count on each other, well bush has indeed won and Democracy is dead.

[Oskie]

159. But Michelle Obama doesn't agree with you...she said she'd

have to "think about it" re: supporting Clinton if she were the nominee. So you and I will vote for Obama or Clinton because we don't a replay of Bush/Cheney. Her statement makes me very angry! Any Dem who will not support our nominee regardless of who it is....is a fool and a Republican. I don't care what they call themselves. If McCain gets in because any Dem sits home rather than support the nominee....well enjoy the 100 year war and the continuing corporate destruction of democracy.

[Baby Snooks]

164. Michele Obama and lots of others

Hillary Clinton has really made a point of dividing a lot of people to the level that most have begun to look at it in terms of the pot calling the kettle black except in this case, the kettle isn't black except for the color of his skin. Hillary and Bill Clinton have both played the race card very subtly but they have still played it. Sometimes having other people play it for them as we saw with the governor of Pennsylvania. There are bigots in the Democratic Party? They should be told to leave the Democratic Party and become Republican. The party for racists. The Democratic Party is NOT the party for racists.

We don't need any further racism in this country and certainly not from Democrats. Do Democrats realize that quite a few Republicans are tired of not only the corruption but the racism in the Republican Party and might actually vote for Barack Obaba rather than have a continuation of the Bush dynasty through either John McCain or Hillary Clinton?

And THAT is probably why Michele Obama said what she said. And she is not alone in it.

[chknltl]

165. I have not heard her say this...if so I disagree with her...

...but it is her husband who runs. I support her husband. Should he not get the nomination I will continue to support We The People by supporting Senator Clinton. Bill Clinton has said a great many things too...I am not his biggest fan but I'll NOT hold that against Senator Clinton. I know that Ex-President Bill, "Big Dog", Clinton will be a powerful force for GOOD in America should his wife get his old job. No, I did not like some of his policies, (NAFTA), either but again, I am NOT holding Senator Clinton accountable here. The bottom line is that We The People have TWO GREAT candidates, TWO GREAT CANDIDATES TO TAKE PRIDE IN, TWO GREAT CANDIDATES to pit against the mcCain "bull shit express"! There is indeed HOPE for America and these two have provided this hope! Take a moment to join in that celebration my fellow DUer! Democracy in America is about to make a most dramatic comeback! Happy Valentines day to you and to all of America!

[sce56]

147. I have but one thing to reply with to that

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton?

I feel it is wrong to let two families control this country! The Bush family Screwed us big time under the first Bush, Silverado savings and loan, Iran Contra, Then Bill was a centrist ie: Republican light! During the Clinton term the Iran Contra report came out that showed Illegal drug smuggling by Oliver North's supply planes but that story was buried under Monica Lewinsky's Blue Dress! No one payed the piper for that Iran Contra Mess and so then Under Bush II we get the worst president ever! Now if Hillary comes in she will not allow any pursuit of justice against the crimes of the past 7 years! The writing is on the wall listen to her own admission on her web site she feels Bush I was one of the best presidents ever along with Ronnie Raygun :puke:

But no president can do it alone. She must break recent tradition, cast cronyism aside and fill her cabinet with the best people, not only the best Democrats, but the best Republicans as well.. We’re confident she will do that. Her list of favorite presidents - Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan - demonstrates how she thinks.

[Avalux]

149. Erica Jong is so out of touch it's pathetic.

I guess I can be described as a Hillary Hater, but not for any of the idiotic reasons Jong have made up. What a horrible piece on so many levels.

[metamars]

179. Obama vs. Hillary scrutinized by Law Prof Lessig

http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html

This is by Lawrence Lessig ( http://lessig.org/ ) , a law professor at Stanford Law School. Very insightful. I wish this would go viral.

You can also view this at Miro ( http://www.getmiro.com )

[NoGodsNoMasters]

152. This makes me very nervous...

This Hillary hatred could tip an election, and I'll be uber-pissed if that asshole McCain wins. This is why I hope to god Obama and Hillary reconcile and join forces because if you add they're numbers together, it looks pretty solid.

[Alcibiades]

162. I support women's lib, but

Why is supporting a candidate other than Senator Clinton inevitably the result of a fear of castration? That doesn't make any sense. From what I understand, all the evidence indicates that the man Senator Clinton has had the most reason to be angry with is still intact, so why should anyone else be scared?

Remember when Dukakis was attacked looking silly for riding in a tank? Or Ford or being clumsy? Or Reagan for being old and senile? Or Strom Thurmond for the same thing? (True in both cases, but beside the point). Criticism of a male candidate is par for the course, no matter how personal, but criticism of any woman, most especially Senator Clinton, is apparently sexist. If one person supports someone other than Clinton, they hate her because she's a strong woman. If two people support someone other than senator Clinton, they they are ganging up on her 1000 to 0. Never mind that she's the establishment candidate and had more money and endorsements than anyone early on and she's managed to blow that. It has to be someone else's fault.

So it must be the haters, who are irrational. How do we know they are irrational? If they were rational, they'd support Senator Clinton. And they cannot spel. Ooooh, some of the people who support Obama cannot spell. Proof positive of something, probably something to do with castration. Anyway, by that standard, Ms. Jong should support whoever George Will supports, as I understand he's a really good speller.

Ms. Jong claims that, somehow, if Senator Clinton does not win the nomination, she will have been relegated to the dustbin of history. Actually, she will be relegated to the Senate, where she will continue to enjoy all the trappings of fame, power and immense wealth. Can I be relegated there tomorrow? Ms. Jong promises to relegate herself to Canada or Italy, which is fine by me. People of wealth who associate with others of wealth view the nations in which they are born as dispensable. If Ms. Jong renounced her citizenship and adopted a new one every time her favored candidate did not win an election, she's truly be a citizen of the world.

I do agree with Ms. Jong on one thing here--let's call Senator Clinton Senator Clinton, not Mrs., or Hillary, or anything else. It's her current job title, and the easiest way to differentiate her from her husband.

Ms. Jong closes with the complaint that 53% of the population is ignored by politicians. She's wrong. It's more like 90%. Sorry, but money trumps gender. Has she ever been ignored? Who's more likely to get their phone calls returned from Washington, her or some non-famous poor person? It's a little annoying to have someone who has has a bazillion hits on her blog and written bestsellers complained on being ignored for her gender, particularly when they have mounted an entire career based on their own experiences as a member of their gender.

[TheWarIzaLie]

170. HillBots are sounding more and more like 'Pukes these days

All their attacks against Obama are generally pretty baseless, and like bush and his 28% of backwash supporters, it seems the harder things get the more obnoxious and distanced from reality they become.

And I really can't even begin to fathom why it is that all these Hilldog supporters can come here and scream bloody murder about Iraq for 5 years and then support that war mongering, right wing, bait and switch, velvet lynching, shift-shaping, entrenched, status quo representing fraud. GO OBAMA!!!

[McCamy Taylor]

173. Hilldog? You can not see the sexism in calling the senator from NY a DOG?

Oh man!

[TheWarIzaLie]

175. I'm not slandering the entire female gender

Only that turncoat Sen. from NY who: champions NAFTA, voted for both nazi esq "Patriot" Acts, and is just as responsible as Bush in the murderous profit driven conquest of Iraq which has sold our country out for generations to come if not indefinately...

I could go on all night w/ valid reasoning behind my contempt for Mrs. Clinton, but those are my big 3 and I will stop at that. Yes, I probably should have exercised my better judgment and not put a sexist spin on it, but rather just sound off w/ a simple FUCK YOU HILLARY!

My apologies to any feminist, vote for Hillary b/ she's a woman and all the worlds problems will just go away then people that may be offended.

But seriously, this PC fervor is getting out of hand.

[McCamy Taylor]

174. Everyone go read "Women, Race and Class" by Angela Davis RIGHT NOW

The Democratic Party will be a better place for it.

[quickesst]

177. The Obama supporters....

The Democratic version of Bush's base. Nice try, but remember, they refussd to acknowledge reality also. Still do, and I suspect this group to follow suit, facts, and the ugly image in the mirror be damned. Thanks.
quickesst

[From The Left]

178. Ann Coulter Supports Hillary Clinton Too

[LostinVA]

191. She does not and you know that

[cooolandrew]

180. Don't watch media pundits we know what they are like by now listen to the candidates then decide...

...Cspan give you a clear un biased and unprovocative view of the candidates. the purpose of the media is to crush the Dem party, so don't entertain them, cspan is the raod forward.

[Evergreen Emerald]

184. This makes me cry. Because it is true.

Women haters are in charge.

[theboss]

185. I tend to call her Hillary!, because that's what her signs said in NY in 2000

The explanation point is part of the name now.

[Politicub]

190. I love reading anything Erica Jong writes. Thanks for posting this.

:kick:

[ProSense]

192. The patriarchy against Hillary debunked

The patriarchy against Hillary debunked

[Beacool]

197. Thank you Erica for expressing some of the frustration

that I have felt for the last few months!!!!!!

It appears that it's permissible to say anything anyone feels like saying about Hillary Clinton without expecting more than a chuckle from an understanding public at large. But God forbid anyone questions Obama on anything because it immediately it's construed as having "racial or racist overtones".

Well, here's one woman who has had enough. The Democrats can go and screw themselves as much as the Republicans. I finally have come to the conclusion that I don't give a damn who wins in November if Hillary is not in the ticket in any way, shape or form. We deserve the idiots that we get and here's an election where we have a choice between a Repug war lover and an arrogant man who acts as if he's the leader of a cult. Well, the hell with them both!!!!!!

If the choice comes down to these two, this woman stays home in November.


P.S. I have voted in every election at every level: local, state & national since I was 18 years old, but this will be the first time in my life where I honestly don't give a shit who wins.