Obama wants to keep NCLB. In his field of dreams, this is an Obama nightmare for our children.

[Maribelle]

NCLB continues to fail our children, their parents, their teachers, and beyond failing their schools, it drains funds from other vital education needs.

There is no wiggle room left in NCLB. Reading and math scores have been steadily declining for African-Americans and Hispanics all across our country, and now they even decline for non-minorities. NCLB’s proof of failure leaves disgraceful marks on this country that all of Obama’s political spin cannot change. Our children are in dire need of responsibility, respect and resources for their education - - not pictures of JFK morphing into Obama accompanied by rousing campaign rhetoric, pumping platitudes, and fluff.

Leaving reality in the dust, Obama and his supporters attempt to cover a festering wound on our children with a dull and uncreative wrapper that dosen’t even fit. Jeb Bush has already tried the tainted wrapper bit in Florida, where he lowered requirements, so that even more failing children now show off as not failing, all the while Jeb awarded multi-million dollar no-bid contracts to his cronies out of federal education dollars.

Obama, MSM, and netroots do not want to talk about this issue of dire importance to our children. But, most people that genuinely care about the children of this nation want to get rid of NCLB and bring back real transparency to our children’s education., for our children’s sake.

When Hillary becomes president she will get rid of NCLB and she will replace it with programs that have working proof. Hillary is one of millions that genuinely cares about our children, and her life’s work is visible proof.

[LiberalFighter]

1. Well I guess he wants Evan Bayh to be his VP since Bayh was instrumental

in the enactment of NCLB

[madrchsod]

2. isn`t he in the clinton camp?

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. I'm sure he will back whoever the party nominates

[LiberalFighter]

53. More likely back whoever he thinks will give him the VP slot

[Maribelle]

3. Please - - Would the name Ted Kennedy sound familiar to you?

It's Teddy's baby.

Regardless, it has failed. Bush twisted the life out of it then sucked its blood dry.

[LiberalFighter]

57. Try Lieberman and Bayh. Kennedy wasn't the original source. Check this out.

Source: Free Library


Once elected, President Bush sent the early message that he wanted an education bill, and he wanted it to be a bipartisan one. Before his inauguration, Bush held a bipartisan education meeting in Austin, and among the hand-picked Democrats attending was Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind. Bayh and Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, D-Conn., had put forth an education reform bill in early 2000 called the Three R's, aimed at bridging the partisan divide in education.

Borrowing liberally from Lieberman and Bayh's reform package, Bush said that the 54 federal elementary and secondary education programs should be consolidated into five categories reflecting federal priorities: 1) educating disadvantaged students; 2) teacher quality; 3) English fluency; 4) school choice; and 5) school safety. Bush also proposed that states begin testing children in grades 3 through 8. He wanted to allow children in schools that failed to close the achievement gap for three straight years to use federal money to attend private schools. On his second full day in office, Bush unveiled an education "blueprint" that was essentially the same as his campaign proposal. The White House immediately began negotiating with the 10 centrist Democrats cosponsoring the Lieberman-Bayh bill, which they reintroduced the day Bush unveiled his proposal, in an effort to cut a deal quickly.

However, when it became clear by the spring that Bush's tax cut would pass with the help of a few centrist Democrats, the Lieberman-Bayh group became leery of ditching their party a second time. The White House had also begun negotiating with Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., and the centrist Democrats feared that the White House would play the centrist and liberal Democrats against one another. For instance, the White House got Kennedy to agree to a limited voucher to pay for tutoring services. It then took that agreement to the New Democrats, who had been holding out on a voucher compromise, to try to get the New Democrats to incorporate the tutoring proposal into the deal they were negotiating separately with the White House. To avoid this, Lieberman decided that future negotiations would have to include Kennedy.

Additional Source: DLC

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Members of the House and Senate New Democrat Coalition today reintroduced their package to dramatically revamp federal education policy and refocus it on raising academic achievement for all students. New Democrats described the sweeping proposal as a real opportunity to break the education stalemate in Congress, and make substantial progress toward addressing our nation's educational challenges.

The Public Education Reinvestment, Reinvention and Responsibility Act (Three R's) was introduced by Senators Joe Lieberman (CT) and Evan Bayh (IN) in the last Congress and shares many key measures with the education proposal President Bush laid out in his campaign. Members of the New Democrat Coalition have rallied behind the Lieberman-Bayh bill and view it as the common ground from which bipartisan compromise on education reform will be successfully achieved this year.

[Maribelle]

69. My response about it being Ted Kennedy's baby was not to claim that he was the original source

but rather to imply that Obama wants to keep NCLB because it means so much to Kennedy, not because of Bayh, as had been indicated in the post I responded to.


But thank you for your valuable information.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

89. HILLARY WEBSITE: SHE SUPPORTS NCLB, WANTS TO FUND IT

so the OP writer presents undocumented and misleading information AGAIN.

"That is why I supported the No Child Left Behind Act in 2001 and continue to believe in the principles behind the landmark law.
...
One of the goals of the No Child Left Behind act is to ensure that all students receive the education and services needed in order to compete in the 21 st century market place
...
I have sponsored letters to the Appropriations committee to reinstate funding for these critical programs.
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/index.cfm?topic=elementary

[harun]

114. They both support NCLB and they should (n/t)

[kurth]

4. Teachers who vote for Obama are screwing themselves

and their students.

No Child Left Behind is a piece of garbage and an abominable waste of taxpayer money.

[Renew Deal]

14. Hillary voted for it.

So teachers voting for Hillary are screwing themselves.

[Maribelle]

20. Try to get a grip. NCLB has failed under Bush. It needs to go.

It would only be a continuation of the nightmare to keep it.

[Renew Deal]

23. Hillary voted for the nightmare.

And you support her. You should consider changing candidates if it bothers you so much, otherwise you have no right to complain.

[Elspeth]

27. Yes, but how does she feel about it NOW? Would she overhaul it

or get rid of it? That's the important question.

[rodeodance]

36. She said she would scrape it.

[Divernan]

52. Remember that dictionary suggestion? It's "scrap", not "scrape"

nt

[greguganus]

61. Shouldn't the "nt" go in the subject line and not in the message? NT

[Straight Shooter]

66. The comma should be placed inside the quotation mark, not outside. n/t

[Divernan]

124. The style books differ on that - a matter of prefernce.

nt

[Greyskye]

71. Hillary's web site states: Reform NCLB

See post #67, but the gist is (from her campaign web site):

Hillary has been an outspoken advocate for reforming No Child Left Behind.

[rodeodance]

75. As I said earlier: She has revised her NCLB: Here is one and ck my other threads please:

http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2008/02/14/News/Daughter.Covers.Campaign.Topics-3210359.shtml

Daughter covers campaign topics (1 of 4 college campus stops in WI)
Ryan Dostalek
Issue date: 2/14/08 Section: News



…..Though the questions covered a wide array of topics, from global overpopulation; Native American rights and health care, the war in Iraq; education and the economy were key policy initiatives Clinton came back to.

Clinton, who never referred to her parents by their names, but rather mom and dad, spoke fluently about her mother's platform, and only couldn't answer one of the roughly two-dozen questions.

…..

Clinton also touted that her mother would end the war in Iraq by bringing the troops home, stabilizing the country as troops are withdrawn and by having a strong diplomatic presence in the Middle East that will help with the rebuilding of Iraq as well as improve relations with other Middle Eastern states. Along with bringing troops home, she said Sen. Clinton would end no-bid contracts, such as that of mercenary groups such as Blackwater, which she said would cost less and improve security in the region, along with ending torture techniques, such as the recent controversial method of waterboarding allegedly used by Central Intelligence Agency investigators on suspected terrorists.

She also said that a part of ending the war in Iraq is improving care for veterans when they return home, including making sure they are compensated and receive the bonuses promised to them when they signed on to serve.

Fiscal responsibility was another reoccurring theme in the hour-long question-and-answer session, with Clinton saying that her mother is the most fiscally responsible candidate among those running for a presidential nomination from both parties, adding that she has a plan to pay for everything.

The former first daughter also said her mother's record on the economy, along with being fiscally responsible, would foster a stronger economy as well as make her the strongest candidate against Republican front-runner Sen. John McCain in the November general election, should the pair get the nominations.

"My mom has the strongest candidacy and she will win in November against McCain," she said.

Other topics Clinton hit were governmental universal health care, greening all federal buildings and investing in renewable energy sources to combat global warming, improving national security by keeping the Patriot Act and ending Bush's No Child Left Behind plan for education.

[Greyskye]

79. nice, but I have to take Clintons web site stance over her daughters comments.

One of these has a measure of accountability to the candidate, the other does not.

[rodeodance]

82. Get real--Chelsea speaks for Hillary while on the stump and you know better than to say what you did

[Greyskye]

92. I'm attempting to keep this debate civil.

I could go out and find any number of 'nuanced' positions stated by people campaigning for either candidate.

If Hillary's position is other then the one I've quoted and referenced from her own campaign web site, then there is quite a disconnect in her campaign, wouldn't you agree? :shrug:

[rodeodance]

101. as I said --read my posts.

[Greyskye]

109. sigh

Talking in circles doesn't do it for me.

Have a nice life.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

105. "Yes, but how does she feel about it NOW?"

However you want her to feel about it..

[jackson_dem]

83. As did Wellstone, Kennedy, Leahy, Boxer and 47 of 49 Democrats

Obamites always leave that part out.

[reggie the dog]

91. How does it waste money?

It reduces funding for poorly performing schools if they continue to perform poorly. How does this waste money?

[Hepburn]

5. Obama slams Bush's 'No Child Left Behind'

WASHINGTON (CNN) — Illinois Sen. Barack Obama slammed President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" policy in a speech to the National Education Association in Philadelphia on Thursday, calling it "one of the emptiest slogans in the history of politics."

"For too long, our politics has been stuck in a cycle where we praise our educators in speeches and photo-ops, but then abandon them when it comes time to offer the resources and the support you need to do your jobs," Obama said in prepared remarks.

<snip>

"In the face of a global economy where too many children start behind and stay behind, this country doesn’t need more blame or inaction or half-measures on education," Obama said. "What we need is a historic commitment to America’s teachers, and that’s the kind of commitment I intend to make as President."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/07/05/obama-slams-bushs-no-child-left-behind/

Don't let the facts get in your way, OK? :eyes:

[Maribelle]

9. Obama said ...

Here is an actual quote from your lord:

Like most ideological debates, this one assumes that there's an "either-or" answer to our education problems. Either we need to pour more money into the system, or we need to reform it with more tests and standards.

But we don't make much progress for our kids when we constrain ourselves like this. It appeared for a brief moment that the President, working with leaders like Senator Kennedy understood this, and many of us were initially encouraged by the passage of No Child Left Behind. It may not be popular to say in Democratic circles, but there were good elements to this bill - its emphasis on the achievement gap, raising standards, and accountability. Unfortunately, because of failures in implementation, particularly its failure to provide adequate funding and a failure to design better assessment tests that provide a clearer path for schools to raise achievement, the bill's promise is not yet fulfilled.

Try denying he said that.


And here is more filth from him on NCLB:

the bill's promise is not yet fulfilled

Deny that one

[PassingFair]

17. Large parts of NCLB are GOOD. It's the UNFUNDED part that really sucks!

"the bill's promise is not yet fulfilled"....
"filth" ? !!

"Your Lord" ? !!!



Get. A. Grip.

[Maribelle]

24. Thanks for proving yet again Obama supporters would rather play in the dirt..

rather than discuss issues.

If you have a problem with my responding to sarcasm directed at me, such as in as in 'Don't let the facts get in your way, OK?'
by only added additional sarcam, I can only thank you for proving yet again that Obama supporters would rather spit filth than discuss issues.

[Hepburn]

31. I love the ignore feature...how about you?

Makes posting on the DU so much better when one is able to block out the people who are so nasty! Talk about hating other people with no cause to do so and an inability to rationally discuss issues. Obama is "my lord?" What a pathetic, unwarranted personal attack.

How sad that someone would come unhinged this easily and have to go to such extremes. I smell desperation in the air.

JMHO

[Marie26]

96. No, it's really not

Obama said: "It may not be popular to say in Democratic circles, but there were good elements to this bill - its emphasis on the achievement gap, raising standards, and accountability."

These were not "good things". I know a lot of teachers, and they all hate NCLB w/a passion. And it's not just because of the unfunded mandates, but because they're being forced to teach a test, and then the teachers are held accountable if a kid just doesn't study or perform. Also it lets military recruiters roam the public schools at all hours to search for new cannon fodder.. uh, recruits.

[mckeown1128]

21. WTF is wrong with you.

The bill's promise IS that no child be left behind. So that quote that you list saying that "the bill's promis is not yet fulfilled" is a critisism. Are you too dense to catch that he is saying that NCLB has NOT worked.

In regards to your first quote. He has a valid point. He is saying that NCLB doesn't work but that it has potential. That it needs to be worked on.

[Maribelle]

28. Of course it's highly critical of Obama because he wants to keep NCLB.

NCLB needs to be cast into the eternal lake of fire - - the sooner the better for our children.

Let's give them things that work, not spend time playing around with things that will pull them down further while the big shots sit around a table scratching their heads.

Most teachers, parents, local school boards, community groups that are genuinely concerned about our children as they are affected by NCLB, want NCLB thrown away.

Hillary will do this.

[RestoreGore]

59. Hillary Clinton will do away with the NCLB Act?

if so, that is one point I will give her. It has to go.

[rodeodance]

81. yes. I have 3 posts on this thread for documentation. take a peak-thanks

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

93. HILLARY'S WEBSITE SAYS SHE SUPPORTS NCLB

http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/index.cfm?topic=elementary

[mckeown1128]

123. Ohh snap....nt

[UALRBSofL]

48. NCLB needs to be scrapped in my opinion

But if you think it needs to be reworked that's your opinion. I can't tell you of any teacher that likes it.

[Hepburn]

25. IMO, you need to take a chill pill. There is no need to get huffy with me...

...and name call and denigrate me.

People like you are one of the reasons this former Edwards supporter will NOT support Hillary. Your arrogant diatribe is a parody of your candidate.

Don't bother to reply...<click>

[Maribelle]

29. There you go with another personal attack. Whatever you do, don't discuss issues.

fraud

[PassingFair]

38. Yeah, Hepburn...stop with all the FILTH!!!1!

:crazy:

Somebody needs a nap....

:rofl:

[RestoreGore]

56. That's why he is also for charter schools which Bush wanted in NCLB

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4555131&mesg_id=4555131


And while it does not absolve Hillary Clinton from suporting them too, I am really getting tired of Obama's supporters trying to play cover for him when he has said these things.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. I fully agree with those statements

And if you don't, you're in favor of continuing to lock Black and Latino kids in the basement so that the whole school can show "progress."

[reggie the dog]

95. not fulfilled

Reform the FUNDING aspects of NCLB and you can actually fulfill the goal of NOT LEAVING ANY CHILDREN BEHIND.

[fight4my3sons]

6. He spoke against NCLB when I saw him in Bangor.

[Divernan]

7. & he spoke against "teaching to the test" at the huge Madison rally.

nt

[rodeodance]

15. platitude--as politicians have been saying this for years.

[Divernan]

32. Actually, concerned teachers have been saying this for years.

It goes way back to when then governor Bush made the Texas teachers teach to the test, and I heard them bitterly complain about it then. I was delighted to hear Obama speak against it. Now perhaps to you that concern is a platitude, i.e, a dull, flat saying. If you have no kids being "taught to the test", what do you care? You blow off that concern as a platitude. By the way it seems you rely on the quantity of your posts, and not the quality.

[rodeodance]

39. don't make assumptions about what I meant please. It is a platitude when

year after year little gets done.
I realize obama has been critical of nclb as has clinton. and certainly teachers have been. it is failed policy.

[Divernan]

51. No assumptions here. The dictionary defines your words - not me.

Oh, I guess those pesky dictionaries are conspiring against you.

[rodeodance]

77. get a grip--I see you do not want a discussion!

[Renew Deal]

58. Hillary voted for it.

Talk about platitudes.

[jackson_dem]

88. As did 47 of 49 Democrats including Wellstone, Kennedy, Leahy, Boxer, and Kerry

It looked like a good idea at the time. What was St. Obama's position? Present?

[Maribelle]

Regardless, he wants to keep NCLB and merely reform it.

He has said this over and over.

[reggie the dog]

98. Standardized tests exist already

in most states there are already standardized tests to gauge what students learn. NCLB put another level of standards in place. This is not necessarily a negative point as it would require teachers to teach a subject in such a manner that students would do well on both the state and federal standardized tests. The negative point of NCLB is the link between test results and the federal funding of a given school.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. and when the people get to know just how Bushlike Obama really is they will drop him like ...

let's just pray it is not too late...otherwise we will have 100 more wars

[QC]

10. Is there any Republican policy he hasn't embraced? n/t

[Divernan]

12. Clinton voted for cluster bombs - a nightmare for the WORLD'S children!

Clinton voted against a ban on cluster bombs - notorious killers of children and grandchildren.

You know what cluster bombs are, don't you? Those thousands and thousands of little ball-like weapons showered on Lebanon by the Israelis, and still maiming and killing civilians, including many children in Lebanon and other countries in which they were used.

Most are familiar with the work Princess Diana did to publicize the horrific injuries these weapons inflicted upon civilians, women, children, and how they continue to kill and maim long after a military conflict has been officially resolved. Those painted bright yellow particularly attract kids to pick them up. Wouldn't American kids pick up pretty yellow balls if they came across one in their neighborhood, yard, park or schoolground?

Some interpret Clinton's vote against banning these inhumane weapons as an attempt to look militarily tough enough to lead a nation at war; others - particularly my Manhattan liberal (truly bona fide leftist) friends said the vote was more to keep from offending Clinton's pro-Israeli constituents/donors.

I'm politically active - personally and professionally. I understand that concessions must be made and triangulations are needed to win office. BUT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A MORAL LINE OVER WHICH THEY WILL NOT STEP - A COMPROMISE TOO FAR, SO TO SPEAK.

Add to that thought the fact that many have said they support Clinton for her work for women and children. Speaking as a woman and as a mother, let alone as a human being, and I am dead serious about this, I would cut off my hand before I pushed the button voting against a ban on these weapons.

If she wins the nomination, I will vote for her. But at the deepest emotional and psychological level, I no longer respect her.

A big talking point for Clinton supporters here on DU is "I support her for all the work she's done for women and children." I don't ever want to hear that crap claim again about someone who voted to support the continued use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. How any human being, how any woman, how any mother could vote in favor of those weapons, which have been condemned by the civilized world - leaves me stunned. It tells me that Senator Clinton has as cold and calculating a heart as I have ever heard of in an American politician.

Consider the actions of Princess Diana.
www.guardian.co.uk/society/gallery/2007/ju...
When Princess Diana tiptoed through a minefield she created an iconic image and helped secure a ban on the weapons, which had killed and maimed thousands. Now campaigners are working with her memorial charity to press for a ban on landmines’ successors, which are wreaking new devastation. Landmine Action say Diana’s name still opens doors worldwide and they hope her legacy will help them secure a ban on cluster bombs - which are wrecking lives in southern Lebanon a year after the war with Israel ended. Unexploded bombs have killed 249 people since the war ended and have left large swathes of the country a no-go area.

[Renew Deal]

13. Hillary voted for it.

So I don't think she's getting rid of it.

[rodeodance]

16. at her Townhall she said she scrapping it. She realizes it just will not work to

reform it.

[KittyWampus]

18. and her POLICY positions on her webpage say a different story.

[rodeodance]

34. She is a smart woman--she has listened to people in her small groups--and has

reassessed her position on it.

[Maribelle]

41. At the UFT, Hillary brought teachers to their feet when she said ...

'we're going to get rid of No Child Left Behind'

http://www.eiaonline.com/2008/02/hillary-to-union-were-going-to-get-rid.html

[rodeodance]

45. see 42 below also

[Maribelle]

49. Great!

Thanks!

[rodeodance]

50. you bet--I bookmarked yours also. I had seen that before but had lost it. thanks

[Viking12]

104. So she panders to her audience?

Says one thing to an audience while her offical policy position is something else? Is that what your saying?

[Renew Deal]

19. Did she "not want it to pass?"

She can't get stuff right.

[babylonsister]

26. Which day and week was that? It's hard to keep track. And can we see

a link to the scrapping she intends?

[rodeodance]

33. It was the evening before super Tues---I am sure you can find it.

[babylonsister]

35. No, you claim she said it; prove it. Or is that impossible? nt

[rodeodance]

47. see maribelle and my posts.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

94. HER WEBSITE DOES NOT SAY SHE WANTS TO SCRAP IT

http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/index.cfm?topic=elementary

[rodeodance]

103. I wonder if Obama's website is up to date on his Policies and changes of positions?? see my posts.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

118. then she needs to update her website, it says differently n/t

[ShortnFiery]

22. Link? I would like the complete story before I make an assessment. eom.

[pdxmom]

30. Reading Clinton's education policy gives no indication that she will

totally remove NCLB. As a matter of fact, she praises the initial law and her biggest criticism is that Bush refuses to fund it. She definitely wants to keep parts of it intact, so that, in my mind, is reform of the law, not removal of the law.

http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/index.cfm?topic=elementary

[Maribelle]

40. Hillary is to get rid of NCLB entirely ...

... a plan she thought was never funded or implemented correctly

Hillary to Union: "We’re Going to Get Rid of No Child Left Behind"

'Education and children are the causes of my life,' she said and promised that 'we're going to get rid of No Child Left Behind,' a promise that brought delegates to their feet roaring approval."

http://www.eiaonline.com/2008/02/hillary-to-union-were-going-to-get-rid.html

[Mass]

43. So, she flip-flopped?

[rodeodance]

46. We are trying to have a discussion here--try to contribute intelligently please.

[Jed Dilligan]

68. She is completely full of shit

All she is going to get rid of is a slogan. I doubt that an ESEA reauthorization on her watch would differ substantially from PL107-110.

[rodeodance]

78. watch your potty mouth.

[Jed Dilligan]

99. Nice substantive reply.

I'm surprised you could get your tongue out of Clinton's ass long enough to type it.

[rodeodance]

106. very appropriate for the words you used including this post!! --your text is shameful.

Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb-14-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #78
99. Nice substantive reply.

I'm surprised you could get your tongue out of Clinton's ass long enough to type it.

[Jed Dilligan]

108. Do you have anything to say about the candidates' education platforms

or are you reduced to attacking me because... you don't?

[rodeodance]

117. You started our thread by saying she is full of shit. I do not like that language and

you continued with that language. so, no i have no desire to discuss this issue with you.





ed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb-14-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
68. She is completely full of shit

All she is going to get rid of is a slogan. I doubt that an ESEA reauthorization on her watch would differ substantially from PL107-110.

[Jed Dilligan]

122. Well hoity toity, aren't you grand?

And, by the way: eat SHIT!

[jmg257]

37. Wow..so it WASN'T Obama saying all that stuff about the failures of NCLB the other day/night?

All that talk on reforming education & about needing more then "teaching to the test"?

That wasn't him? I wonder just WHO was giving those awesome primary victory speeches then?

Just more BS from the Billary camp..

[rodeodance]

42. Hillary: "We need to start over..."--Q: What will you do to get rid of No Child Left Behind?

Notes from Hillary's "Voices Across America" Town Hall Meeting

http://galley-cat.newsvine.com/_news/2008/02/04/1278445-notes-from-hillarys-voices-across-america-town-hall-meeting-
News Type: Event — Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:35 PM EST
politics, democrats, election, clinton, 2008, hillary, town-hall
galley-cat

Here are notes from Hillary’s Voices Across American Town Hall Meeting tonight, February 4, 2008, the night before the Super Tuesday primaries. I've written the questions that were asked and then her answers given; my notes were typed almost verbatim:

1.What will you do to get rid of No Child Left Behind? "We need to start over. Universal Pre-K; smaller class size; incentives for teachers to teach in difficult areas; after-school programs and summer programs; federally-funded qualified teachers put in schools; for poorer districts, feds should help with facilities. Fed only spends 10% of its monies on education. I am also for more funding for special education. I will listen to the ones in the classroom; focus on individual child.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Are you really interested in children's education?

Because you're misrepresenting this so much it's hard to believe you really care and would rather just exploit.

[HeraldSquare212]

54. I'd say not bombing children and driving them from their homes is the place to begin. nt

[Political Heretic]

55. This is pretty much another lie.

Obama is on the record in strong, unwavering criticism of NCLB as it stands now. He's also on record detailing specifically the reforms he would make and his plans for investing in teachers. Clinton's policy proposls and Obama's barely differ except in how they present him.

Obama is no record NOWHERE saying he "favors" NCLB. He is on record talking about how broken NCLB is and what must be done to fix it. He wants to turn it into a federal funding program that benefits teachers and students and do away with the learn-to-tests ideology of the bush administration.

Please don't lie. That's all I ask. I'm begging you. Can we please just have honest debate.

[Maribelle]

60. Obama wants to keep NCLB .

Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of "reform" and "fix" - - and instead you lob a personal attack against me.

Sorry, if you misunderstand Obama. Please stop blaming me.

[Political Heretic]

62. It's the same details as clinton.

They have no substantial disagreements in their criticism of NCLB as it stands today or what should be done about it.... except they describe it different.

Clinton will end the program named NCLB and replace it with a new program with better ideas.
Obama will end all the elements of NCLB that they both dislike and reform the program with the same ideas they both share.

It's a NON ISSUE that you're pretending is an issue.

[Maribelle]

70. How dare you. I pretend nothing. NCLB is a vital issue to me ....

and to millions of mothers and teachers, school districts and tax payers.

That you are attempting to declare otherwise merely shows off how you do not care about issues that are vital to some.

[Political Heretic]

112. It's a vital isue on which the candidates essetially AGREE.

Yes, how dare I tell the truth.

[rodeodance]

84. I have 3 posts on this thread --read them before you spout off again!! You are WRONG

[Political Heretic]

115. No, I am not wrong.

Hillary wants to "scrape" the program and replace it with something else.
Obama wants to eliminate all things that both he and Hillary AGREE don't work and reform the program doing the exact same things Hillary is talking about.

Whether you have a new program named something else or a new reformed program named the same thing, the only difference is whether or not the name remains.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. kick this to the Home page

[cgrindley]

64. NCLB's detractors simply do not understand it or are not competent

to teach using the pedagogies that work best with it.

1. active learning is OVER. Other than at a mere handful of wealthy private schools no one taught it properly, and in the hands of the lowest common denominator public school teacher it turned into touchie feelie bullshit with no intellectual merit.

2. direct instruction won the battle of pedagogy. GET. USED. TO. IT.

3. assessment is here to stay.

Systems similar to NCLB work fine in Canada, Europe and the rest of the world. But here, the aging adherents of a failed and elitist pedagogy simper on... who knows why? maybe because in the end, it is easier to be shitty at active learning than mediocre at direct instruction.

NCLB = transparency in education. Don't believe otherwise. It's the only way to keep teachers accountable.

[Maribelle]

72. It would be quite simple to rotate all the teacher's in the A schools with the ones in the F schools

If the original A teachers, which receive additional pay based on the As, are better teachers than the original F teachers, then a swap would prove this is true. After the swap, the F schools would become A schools. Blessed proof!!!!


NCLB does absolutely nothing right to keep teachers accountable.


Your pomp that detractors simply do not understand it or are not competent is bogus flack, nothing more.

[reggie the dog]

111. NCLB

is just another layer of requirements. In Chicago I had the directives of the Chicago Public School system( our local school district), the standards which came from the state of Illinois, and the standards which came from Washington. I had to teach my students about the historical events that the feds wanted and which are shared by all Americans, then I had to teach what the state wanted (perhaps Texas and Illinois have different points of study involving their state histories. One was part of France, the other was it's own country etc., I also had to teach what the city wanted which involved a bit of history of Chicago. It still remained my possibility to cover the basics as dictitated by the district, state and federal levels as well as TO PREPARE MY OWN LESSONS INVOLVING TOPICS OF MY CHIOCE WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE REQUIRED BY THE DISTRICT, THE STATE, or THE FEDS. I taught in the ghetto at a school where half the students didn't graduate yet even I found the time to teach the required standards plus some of my own ideas (these are usually linked to what I think the students in a given class will find interest in, ex. I was in a neighborhood with a huge Puerto Rican population, so we did a unit on the history of Peurto Rico from before Spanish colonization up until modern times). Seeing as there were a dozen gangs at the school I also did a unit on the history of gangsters in Chicago. NCLB hurt the half of the students at the school that I taught in because the federal funding for their school was cut because it perfomed badly (because half of the school was there to be gangsters, pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, and theives because they thought those were their best career choices).

[Greyskye]

67. Hillary's position seems to be quite similar to Obama's.

If quite a bit less detailed. (on edit - sounds almost identical to Obama's position on his site)

From Hillary's web site:

Reforming the No Child Left Behind Act. This law represented a promise -- more resources for schools in exchange for more accountability -- and that promise has not been kept. http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/family/

edit - I found a little more on her web site:
REFORMING NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND: Hillary has been an outspoken advocate for reforming No Child Left Behind. She supports the use of growth models to track student performance; believes we ought to reward schools that make progress and thinks educators should have more of a say in turning around struggling schools. Hillary opposes the one size fits all approach to addressing the challenges facing schools, and is pushing for more flexibility in the law.

From Obama's web site:

Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/

[robbedvoter]

73. At her towmhall, she said she'd start "from scratch" to a question :you said you'd end

NCLB"

[Greyskye]

74. I'm simply reporting what their OFFICIAL campaign web sites state

My wife is a teacher who loathes NCLB.

The two candidates official positions seem to be quite similar.

[rodeodance]

80. see my threads for updates please. thank you.

[Greyskye]

85. Your threads are now the Clinton official stances?

I've seen you quote Chelsea and town hall meetings.

I am simply trying to show that both candidates officially stated positions are quite similar.

Not by quoting 3rd parties, or the candidates off-the-cuff comments on the campaign trail.

But by (as even-handedly as possible) researching their positions as stated on their campaign web sites.

Peace.

[rodeodance]

110. Sen. Clinton is not 3rd party heresay. Her position has evolved after listening to teachers and

parents in her group discussions. And I am glad she has changed her position.
The website is obviously out of date.
rd.


reyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb-14-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #80
85. Your threads are now the Clinton official stances?

I've seen you quote Chelsea and town hall meetings.

I am simply trying to show that both candidates officially stated positions are quite similar.

Not by quoting 3rd parties, or the candidates off-the-cuff comments on the campaign trail.

But by (as even-handedly as possible) researching their positions as stated on their campaign web sites.

[Greyskye]

113. wow.

It must be nice to be able to dismiss any substantive debate with "The website is obviously out of date".

Get back to me when they get that updated. :eyes:

[rodeodance]

116. OK-by your "logic" I will dismiss what Obama says on the trail as heresay!! You

have dug yourself into a hole with your comments.





Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb-14-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. wow.

Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 12:32 PM by Greyskye
It must be nice to be able to dismiss any substantive debate with "The website is obviously out of date".

[Greyskye]

121. reading comprehension is your friend

What I said was:

I've seen you quote Chelsea and town hall meetings.

I am simply trying to show that both candidates officially stated positions are quite similar.

Not by quoting 3rd parties, or the candidates off-the-cuff comments on the campaign trail.

3rd party = Chelsea. Town hall meetings and "candidates off-the-cuff comments" = Senator Clinton.

I was obviously referring to Chelsea as a 3rd party (and NEVER used the word 'heresay' (sic))

Please don't use misquoting me as a debate tactic. It will not work. :thumbsdown:

[rodeodance]

76. "ending Bush's No Child Left Behind plan for education."

http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2008/02/14/News/Daughter.Covers.Campaign.Topics-3210359.shtml

Daughter covers campaign topics (1 of 4 college campus stops in WI)
Ryan Dostalek
Issue date: 2/14/08 Section: News



…..Though the questions covered a wide array of topics, from global overpopulation; Native American rights and health care, the war in Iraq; education and the economy were key policy initiatives Clinton came back to.

Clinton, who never referred to her parents by their names, but rather mom and dad, spoke fluently about her mother's platform, and only couldn't answer one of the roughly two-dozen questions.

…..

Clinton also touted that her mother would end the war in Iraq by bringing the troops home, stabilizing the country as troops are withdrawn and by having a strong diplomatic presence in the Middle East that will help with the rebuilding of Iraq as well as improve relations with other Middle Eastern states. Along with bringing troops home, she said Sen. Clinton would end no-bid contracts, such as that of mercenary groups such as Blackwater, which she said would cost less and improve security in the region, along with ending torture techniques, such as the recent controversial method of waterboarding allegedly used by Central Intelligence Agency investigators on suspected terrorists.

She also said that a part of ending the war in Iraq is improving care for veterans when they return home, including making sure they are compensated and receive the bonuses promised to them when they signed on to serve.

Fiscal responsibility was another reoccurring theme in the hour-long question-and-answer session, with Clinton saying that her mother is the most fiscally responsible candidate among those running for a presidential nomination from both parties, adding that she has a plan to pay for everything.

The former first daughter also said her mother's record on the economy, along with being fiscally responsible, would foster a stronger economy as well as make her the strongest candidate against Republican front-runner Sen. John McCain in the November general election, should the pair get the nominations.

"My mom has the strongest candidacy and she will win in November against McCain," she said.

Other topics Clinton hit were governmental universal health care, greening all federal buildings and investing in renewable energy sources to combat global warming, improving national security by keeping the Patriot Act and ending Bush's No Child Left Behind plan for education.
.......

[Marie26]

86. Link?

I can't understand how any Dem. could justify supporting that bill.

[reggie the dog]

87. no child left behind

failed because it was coupled with the feds cutting funding for education. Obama would actually increase funding for schools. As a teacher I care about children and the worst part about NCLB is that funding is cut from schools that do not perform well. Having standards is not a bad thing, linking federal funding for schools based on their proformance is. I do not think the Obama plan wants to continue cutting funding for underperforming schools. He would reform that part of NCLB instead of doing away with the program altogether.

[jackson_dem]

90. Obama also favors the rethug idea of "pay for performance" unlike Hillary

[Greyskye]

100. This does not sound like the Repub plan to me:

Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward accomplished educators who serve as a mentor to new teachers with a salary increase. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/

[electron_blue]

97. He can ditch it after elected. Saying he's okay with it for now helps him win

Republican constituents.

I do like that Hillary says out in front that she would ditch NCLB. It deserves to be ditched. This is one of the things I like most about Clinton. I don't believe Obama when he says he thinks NCLB should be kept - I think he's either saying it to help his position republican voters, in the long-view, or he's speaking out of ignorance. I do think, however, if Obama wins, once in office his administration will help fix gaping holes in our education programs and be more aligned to what most Dems want for our education.

[Greyskye]

107. How are their two plans different?

I've posted and referenced both Obama's and Hillary's positions on NCLB here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4586314&mesg_id=4588657

[Hoof Hearted]

120. So in other words it's ok for him to lie about major issues just to get elected? Interesting ethics

there. If you think it's ok for him to lie about NCLB and you appear to assume he is, how is it you think you know what else he's lying to you about? Do those kinds of cognitive gymnastics cause any physical pain?

[electron_blue]

125. No, I don't think it's ok for him to lie.

And I didn't vote for him in the caucus. I'm just trying to figure him out.

Actually, I am pretty sure that both candidates have lied about things, and been evasive and/or manipulative to get elected and will continue to do so. I really wish we had a candidate I could get behind 100% on an ethical, moral, and intellectual level, but we don't. I still find it interesting to watch these two, what they are saying now, compare it with their actions in the past and try to predict which would be the better President.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

102. LOL its gotta be nice to be Hillary

To have history stat only when you want it to

Vote Number: 371 Vote Date: December 18, 2001, 12:13 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Conference Report Agreed to
Measure Number: H.R. 1
Measure Title: A bill to close the achievement gap with accountability, flexibility, and choice, so that no child is left behind.
Vote Counts: YEAs 87
NAYs 10
Not Voting 3
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State

Alphabetical by Senator Name
...
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
....

--

This is the status quo with Hillary vote on something because its popular but when the political tide turns 're-evaluate' your position..

[rodeodance]

119. Intellectual people such as Hillary do engage in re-evalutions over time. I do Obama

does this also.