Why people love/hate Hillary - because she reminds you of you.

[elixir]

A very important piece written by Erica Jong was posted on DU recently (link below). How can it be captured so beautifully? Hillary is everything we want to love or hate because she has a history and a past by which we can judge her. She has earned my trust and support because she has made choices, difficult choices, throughout her career and whether they were personal or career choices she made them, stuck by them and honored them. I admire her determination, credibility and integrity.

I personally believe she made the right choices. The IWR resolution that Hillary voted for was based upon information, incorrect information as we now know, that was not available to many including Barack Obama. And even Barack in 2002 (?) admits that he didn't have all the information and was not sure how he would vote. This vote as well as the Kyl-Lieberman vote gave authority to our president who made a grave error.

Barack appeals to those that want a clean slate, no baggage - dare I say "a fairytale". That's what he presents, a clean slate a mirror which his supporters can look into and see a perfect world with no history or policies by which to measure him.

I will choose experience and integrity over hopes and dreams every time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4585961&mesg_id=4585961

[ShortnFiery]

1. No, I believed from the onset that the IWR would give Bush a green light to invade.

Also HRC voted "Aye" on the Kyle-Lieberman Amendment. We're not over BushED yet. :scared:

[Kittycat]

5. I completely agree.

[Captain Hilts]

14. Hans Blix credits it with giving the UN the oomph to get weapons inspectors back in Iraq...nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. But he's wrong. The negotiations were in progress to let them back in

and virtually every point had been hammered out a month BEFORE IWR was voted on. Don't forget, even then American and British forces were bombing Saddam's air defenses on a nearly DAILY basis, enforcing the illegal no-fly zone. Saddam was only worried about losing control of the Shi'ites, as he had already lost control of the Kurds, and was trying to maintain a semblance of strength to keep the country from exploding.

And even Blix admits that in the years when the inspectors were on the ground, they found NOTHING. After they went back in they found NOTHING - nothing more than a few short-range missiles that might have been capable of striking a hundred miles beyond the allowed range, and they were promptly destroyed.

Saddam was not opposed to the inspectors because of fear they'd find something. He was opposed because he KNEW they would NOT find anything - and there goes his hold on power.

Anybody could see that, if they looked at it honestly.

[Captain Hilts]

70. Talk's cheap. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. As did MILLIONS of others across the country and around the world.

The 'secret knowledge' argument has been bogus from the beginning.

[JAbuchan08]

76. gee what a coincidence, so did I!

[Tennessee Gal]

2. I'm for Hillary and I just donated to her again.

[Bucky]

3. In a way, it's not fair that everybody is against Clinton while everybody's in favor of Obama

Is that really any criterion for winning an election?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

67. Im not against her, I think a Lot less people are against her than she'd like you to believe

really. most people I talk to like both Hillary and Obama and they've felt torn between choosing, in general, that's the widespread feeling among democrats.

[Bucky]

71. I think you missed my irony

In a democracy, if everyone is against you, you're supposed to lose. That's kind of the point.

FWIW, not "everyone" is against Clinton. But if she keeps on losing primaries, it's hard to see the argument that she deserves to win. If she can't sell the case to a majority of Democrats, how's she gonna sell her case to the majority of Americans?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

72. oh, oops, lol, sorry! I get it now, yes, I totally agree! nt

[Rock_Garden]

4. Me, too, elixir.

[AX10]

6. I am one of the few young people...

who does not buy into Obama's hype.

[elixir]

43. I'm curious. Would you mind filling me in on why the younger generation are

so enthralled? I'm not against the guy, I'm just surprised that there's been such an incredible surge towards him. My theory is that some people who have not been through a lot of experiences in life - debt, paying monthly bills, losing/gaining jobs.. you know, the stuff that really takes a lot out of you ...feel that Obama is the best. I think those people, generally, are the young, fresh-out-of college generation and the older, affluent generation who never had to struggle against those odds.

Let me know what your take is.

Thanks for the message.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

68. Thats not fair, there are a lot of young people that have had to work really hard for what they have

In my experience, young affluent kids with few negative life experiences generally vote Republican!

The young democrats are those that care about social issues, fixing poverty, healthcare reform, reforming the political system, electing officials that can get stuff done and work for the people.

[AX10]

87. He makes them feel good buy appealing to the optimism of...

youth. Many young have not been touched directly by much and continuous hardship.
The realists understand and respect those offer concrete plans and offer experience of dealing with difficulties. Clinton has both. Young people don't value experience but think that they can change the world on their own. Give it 20 years and they will see the world very differently. They will be older and wiser.

[corkhead]

7. No, I hate Hillary because Sean, Bill, and Rush told me to.

:evilgrin:

[saltpoint]

8. The Jong piece is an earnest endorsement of HClinton's candidacy but

the premise about Hillary Clinton reminding us of ourselves doesn't fly, IMO.

It's too early to say that the Clinton campaign is mortally wounded, but they are in a difficult place.

"Fairy tale" and "myth" are nouns used in the United States as perjoratives. IMO they are not 'negative.' The Clinton campaign has been tactical but is low on mythic energy, and Obama's campaign has been both tactically sure-footed and mythically imbued. Note that the polling favors the combination and not the imbalance.

From press reports, somewhere around 20,000 people stood in very cold temps in Madison on Tuesday evening to listen to Senator Obama's message. People were turned away from the arena. Some were redirected to an adjunct Pavilion. From reports, parking is a problem in that area but still people arrived early and stood in the cold to lend their attention to a candidate. Senator Clinton's campaign is not attracting that level of enthusiasm and the whispers grow louder that her campaign operatives have been outflanked.

And it isn't because her campaign staff are dummies. Quite the contrary. It's because there's very little mythic energy to her message.

[nebenaube]

9. hit your three post limit yet? n/t

[DeepBlueC]

16. what does that mean...?

"three post limit" does not compute. please explain

[elixir]

45. Not yet, thanks for caring.

[DeepBlueC]

10. many women are not surprised

From our first experiences in the workforce we learned the ropes by seeing women who devote themselves to a company, work very hard and finish every task,often for others who "needed a hand" and learn every aspect of the organization, its systems and its people. Then when there comes an opening in management for someone with just those skills and experiences, the company search a finds a younger guy with some relevant skills, but with "leadership" capacity (meaning not a woman) to become her new boss. She gets to teach him the ropes. In my younger days she's be bringing hom his coffee too.

[saltpoint]

11. That scenario you describe does occur, but IMO is not related to the

Obama/Clinton nomination race.

Obama is now doing better with women voters than Clinton. It is not reasonable to assume that those women voters supporting Obama are unaware of workplace injustices. Nor is their vote any less than yours or mine.

Your scenario rings true in instances when it occurs, but the extension onto the nomination race is not persuasive. At the moment Barack Obama has a strong wind at his back and Hillary Clinton's camp is reacting to that success, but it is Democratic voters -- including women -- who are making the decisions at their voting booths.

[DeepBlueC]

18. I was just describing a narrative scenario

not the polling details of the Great Obama-Clinton wars in which I am a conscientious objector. I'm thinking more of the historical curve of women's enfranchisement at the polls, in the schools, in the office, and it occurred to me that I see a metaphor playing itself out. I see a narrative arc that is broadly evocative to me, as it will be to many other women my age. I am looking at the big picture of history, not all polling, pushing, and spinning, however passionately pursued, of this disheartening fracas.

I am not calling a horse race

[saltpoint]

20. I'm all for the long view.

But this is a nomination race, and I reject claims posted on DU and elsewhere that Senator Clinton is a "victim."

She needed stronger horses for this charge up the hill. Instead she selected plow horses from her husband's old barn.

And it is Obama's message that incorporates -- skillfully -- that historical trajectory, not Sen. Clinton's.

[DeepBlueC]

38. you just can't fucking quit can you

talking points, talking points, talking points. What do you do when you have to take time to chew the Rice Krispies? I'm thinking snap, crackle, pop would be a nice change

[saltpoint]

82. Let me know if you want a dialogue on feminine archetypes, jeme.

You don't seem to be quite yourself right now.

PM me any time you want.

[elixir]

50. What "historical trajectory" is Obama's campaign incorporating - the charge up the hill?! Sounds

like he's Teddy Roosevelt.

[saltpoint]

84. Actually, he is more akin to TR than Clinton is, and that's not so good

for her campaign.

Hers is going a bit flat-line these days. She could revive it with some wins in the coming states, or she could fall farther behind. We'll have to see how WI, OH, TX, VT, HI, and RI go, and what the breakdown in demographics is.

The historical alignment is not parallel of course, but the charisma and the brains are a match between Obama and TR.

Good point.

As for the 'trajectory' comment, see also post #18, which references 'narrative arc.'

[elixir]

49. Nobody said they weren't voting for Obama. But the majority are for Hillary. And this happens all

the time and it's definitely happening in this race.

[saltpoint]

85. We'll likely see the total demographic breakdown after the March 4th contests,

to include both HI and WI.

We can see already that increasingly, women are supporting Obama, that Clinton is losing ground at the moment across almost all demographic groups. The Missouri primary is a case in point. It's tough to find a battleground state more battlegroundy than Missouri. It's offered some real cliffhangers over the years, including several races with Democratic women candidates. Harriet Wood, Jean Carnahan, Claire McCaskill, etc. -- all excellent candidates, but they had to find ways to campaign across all of the state. Not easy to do in a state that sent John Ashcroft to the U.S. Senate.

Clinton ran well in Missouri. Obama ran a notch better.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. Obama's comment about his

weakness of not being able to keep track of papers, etc. and needing someone to help him with that was a carefully crafted statement to put women in the secretary category.

[saltpoint]

28. I'd need to see documentation of intent.

Short of that, I wouldn't worry about it.

Again, count the female vote for Obama, which increases each primary.

[BlackVelvet04]

30. Like Obama supporters need to see documentation of

intent over all the shit they lay on Hillary.

His intent was obvious.....or do you really think he thinks his worst fault is a messy desk? Have some more Kool Aid.

[saltpoint]

32. I'm sorry your candidate is not in the lead. I'm sorry she does not have

the momentum.

I'm sorry she relied too much on her husband's political chums for her success narrative.

She may even still win the nomination.

But it isn't looking good.

[BlackVelvet04]

33. Yeah, sure......

your candidate has had the press on his side to the point of ridiculous.

[saltpoint]

34. Well, the nomination race occurs in reality. We're all observers.

Some of us are volunteers, some donors.

That process is a long-view process. The media are only one part, not all part.

Many women voters support Sentor Obama. You fail to address that part of the equation.

[BlackVelvet04]

39. I've address that many times.....n/t

[saltpoint]

83. ok. nt

[elixir]

51. Thanks for the update from Obama central.

Why don't you take your favorite things - "books. music. travel. film. poetry." and include long winded fights about how men are better than women.

[saltpoint]

81. I haven't seen any claims to that effect around here. Have you?

If so, site them.

If not, it looks like you've gone astray on the facts.

[MagickMuffin]

31. Now HOW do you know he wouldn't select a man for that job?.?.?

There are male secretaries nowadays, just like there are male nurses and other jobs once thought to be carried out only by women.

We've come a long way, baby.

[saltpoint]

36. It would constitute discriminatory practice, in fact, on sexist grounds.

Good point, MM.

[elixir]

47. All too familiar. I really want Hillary in the WH, I think she'd be terrific.

[JTFrog]

62. You are talking about a

wealthy ivy league woman who has taken full advantage of every opportunity that life has offered her. She has the audacity to play the crying female victim in order to try to manipulate me to vote for her. It's low and pathetic and it puts an onus on women that isn't deserved if Hillary doesn't win.

She did not do me or any other women any favors by sending our kids and husbands off to war in order to appear more like "one of the boys".

You know... I asked everyone I talked to in the last few days... What is Margaret Thatcher's husband's name? How about Indira Ghandi's? How about Hillary Clinton's?

Think about it.

[mmonk]

12. I love all the analysis about how some of us think.

It's a classic tactic of trying to devalue people who don't share a position. I don't consider Obama perfect with no baggage, I just prefer him at this time. It's not about hating Clinton except for the other side (Republican).

[DeepBlueC]

19. ah, a voice of reason

how bloody refreshing. I'll take seconds, please

[0007]

13. Egads!! Am I glad yore back to give us the straight poop

You can access the whole thing here. After you get done coloring, see if you can spot any sexism.


Erica Jong, :puke:

[elixir]

52. No problem, I'm just here to serve.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

15. NIE--not worth a read? Come on.

[madrchsod]

17. she reminds me of all those goldwater girls i went to school with

they all thought they were far better than the rest of us and when they spoke to us we were supposed to be thrilled. she may have changed her R for a D but she`s still that girl who thinks she can still thrill us by just the sound of her voice.

[0007]

22. C'mon get giddy and have a big juicy chocolate.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

29. Sounds like you have some unresolved issues. n/t

[elixir]

53. Pulling out the old ammunition - you guys must be worried about BO.

[elixir]

54. Yep, you can always pick out the guys - especially the insecure ones who need a man in the WH

[jmg257]

21. "Barack appeals to those that want a clean slate, no baggage" . Bingo! something other then SOP BS

She reminds me of...every other professional politician who says and does whatever it takes to stay in power - or garner more.

NO thanks!

[elixir]

55. Another guy. I smell a trend.

[Triana]

23. I have no problem with her personally - I'm undedided between her and Obama

neither of them are perfect as people or candidates.

But I'm getting sick of people trying to tell me who I hate and why.

And I'm getting sick of all the hatred towards Hillary and the misogynism on this site. The goddamned lamestream media and this misogynist country does a good enough job of it, don'tchathink? WHY is DU contributing to that? What does it serve? WHO does it serve?

It is UNbefitting anyone who calls themselves a "Democrat" - we do a better job of skewering our own than Freak Repube-lick does. And it is testimony to the fact that just because someone calls themselves a Democrat or Progressive - does NOT mean they're not sexist.

DU is the living, breathing proof of that.

Gotta problem with her policies, her record, her votes (or absence thereof) her rhetoric? FINE. SO DO I. I've got problems with Obama's too - AND with the attitudes and deliriousness of his congregation. But one can do without the rest of the right-wingnut shit-flinging here.

If we want to toss around right-wingnut talking points, lets go flapping and hyperventilating over Hussein Obama and the "fact" that he's a Muslim with "dark past" - yadda yadda.

IF we did that - WHO here would find that acceptable? Probably few.

BUT IT'S PERFECTLY OK to spew comparable right-wingnut talking points about Hillary and the Clinton family. Yap. That's 'different'.

sad.

Just.

sad.

Jesus H. Fricking Christ.

And you wonder why people sometimes say American Voters and/or Democrats are THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY.

Shit. Just spend a day on DU - the answers are all here.

[YOY]

25. No.

Try, it's because I think legacies are BS among other real reasons.

[elixir]

57. Another one....

[YOY]

63. Thank you for your smarmy retort.

It's almost to Perry's level. Thanks for judging me based on my gender. Really proves you're above all of this, doesn't it?

It's really all about the genitals, no?

God forbid anyone of either gender dislike her for any reason...

[JAbuchan08]

77. belittlement and condescension from a Clinton supporter?

I'm shocked! SHOCKED! SHOCKED!

[Armstead]

26. How can peope accuse Obama of being empty while defending Hillary with psychobabble?

[Avalux]

27. Erica Jong does not speak for me. I find her piece irrelevant to my experiences and beliefs.

I'm sure others can find commonalities in what she says but I don't. Sometimes it's best to make the hard and often scary choice of change instead of sticking with what's comfortable.

To say that a clean slate is a "fairy tale" is complete bullshit. If I hadn't gone for the clean slate in my life (which was very difficult and a lot of work), I would not be where I am today.

[livetohike]

35. Well she does not remind me of me!

I'm the daughter and granddaughter of steel workers. My dad wasn't born in this country. I attended a state run university and I never had to rely on my husband to help me get a job.

[Forkboy]

37. She doesn't remind me of me, but she does remind me of my sister.

They even look alike. Of course, my sister is a Repub now, so there's that too. :P

[asthmaticeog]

40. "The IWR resolution that Hillary voted for was based upon information...

...incorrect information as we now know, that was not available to many..."



Um, bullshit. *I* knew Iraq wasn't a threat. How come I fucking knew that and a United States Senator with access to all kinds of diplomats and info from sources other than the known liars in the Executive branch didn't know it? She's either lying or incompetent, and her saber-rattling w/r/t Iran suggests she's both. Every Senator who's used the "if I knew then..." excuse about the IWR is full of steaming, putrid shit.

[HeraldSquare212]

42. Right - it's not her, it's us. Priceless.

[DemExpat]

46. Wow, that spoke to me deeply.

Thanks for posting, elixir,

DemEx

[Johnny__Motown]

48. Hillary has NO INTEGRITY, why won't she release her tax returns until after the convention?

Why won't they release the papers locked away in the Clinton Library?

Why did she lie about the Levin Amendment during the California debate?

Why did she sell her e-mail list?

Why does she take money from lobbyists?

Etc Etc Etc


NO Integrity, not even close.


It isn't about me, it is about the truth.

[elixir]

59. .. and another.. boy, why don't you guys get a job instead of sitting in your pjs on DU?

The men are just afraid of a woman president who has a record of enacting legislation and reaching across the aisle to the other side - sounds like a real problem to me. Yeh, let's get behind the candidate with no proven track record, already making mistakes on votes and record, who can't debate.. and support his run for the WH because he's a man.

Good idea....no.

[YOY]

65. One can see that you skipped over the female dissenters, around 1/2 of the total

You have no idea where/whatthe f*** you are posting, do you?

Seriously, you don't.

[saltpoint]

86. I have Bella Abzug PJs.

They're awesome.

[Jed Dilligan]

56. I'm against Hillary because she practices a politics of exclusion

She draws the line around her Chosen People and would leave the rest of America to suffer. If you don't buy into her version of "the American Dream" she WILL make you suffer. It's how her husband was and it's how she will be if, god forbid, she ever becomes president.

[elixir]

58. ...and another...

[Jed Dilligan]

60. You are a sexist pig. nt

[0007]

73. Takes one to know one, 'eh?

What number are YOU toots?

[Jed Dilligan]

80. Anti-Hillary + male = male chauvinist

is the most sexist formulation I can possibly imagine. Find me one sexist thing I've actually said on this site and get back to me with your offensive fucking pictures, fascist.

[Barack_America]

61. Bring on the therapy...

I share several behavioral characteristics with Hillary and, yet, I have no interest in supporting her.

[AtomicKitten]

64. bring on the exorcist ;)

"The power of Christ compels you."

[Hill_YesWeWill]

66. I don't know, I like her, but I don't identify with her, we kind of don't have a lot in common

you know, there's a lot of people in this country that are younger than 50, I know maybe it's hard for baby boomers to believe that, but, we can vote too!

[Popol Vuh]

69. Sigh

"I personally believe she made the right choices. The IWR resolution that Hillary voted for was based upon information, incorrect information as we now know.."

Sorry, but I don't buy it. You're right though in that Senators have information not available to the general public and it is because of this fact I believe they are all lying when they say they didn't know because this short video clip shows what information they already had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsVKDY74C0g

"Barack appeals to those that want a clean slate, no baggage - dare I say "a fairytale".

"I will choose experience and integrity over hopes and dreams every time."

You're contradicting yourself. On one hand you're basically admitting Hillary comes to the table with "baggage" but then try and assert that she has integrity. Which is it? Baggage or integrity?

As for me, I'll choose someone who isn't all talk, nor talks out both sides of his mouth every time over someone who has experience doing so.



Peace.

[Political Heretic]

74. I had enough information to know the case for Iraq was bogus.

In fact, I told my father ON 9/11 that the next thing that would happen would be we would come up with false reasons to invade Iraq.

But more importantly, plenty of congress people had enough information to vote against the IWR from day one. The argument that "I just didn't know!" is bullshit. It was "I just didn't want to be on an unpopular side of the issue (since the majority of Americans supported the move to war at the time, according to polls) because I'm going to run for President."

That's not leadership.

[FrenchieCat]

75. Not even fucking close.......

Hillary Clinton is nothing like me.

To begin with, I don't bring my husband on my job interviews.

[SOS]

78. On the IWR

Akaka (D-HI), Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Conrad (D-ND), Corzine (D-NJ), Dayton (D-MN), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Graham (D-FL), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Reed (D-RI), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wellstone (D-MN), Wyden (D-OR), Chafee (R-RI) and Jeffords (I-VT)

These 23 are the ones with experience and integrity.

[eridani]

79. She reminds me of cluster bombs and NAFTA n/t