Hillary just fine with disenfranchising voters

[tpsbmam]

Okay, I was truly undecided until now. Our primary is very late and I haven't had to decide, which for me is a great thing in this particular election -- I pictured coin-flipping going on as I approached the polling station. If this is true, I'm now decided and I'll support Obama. This is disgusting.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/02/clinton_counts.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/yo5w6n

<snips>

Hillary Clinton will take the Democratic nomination even if she does not win the popular vote, but persuades enough superdelegates to vote for her at the convention, her campaign advisers say.

But Clinton will not concede the race to Obama if he wins a greater number of pledged delegates by the end of the primary season, and will count on the 796 elected officials and party bigwigs to put her over the top, if necessary, said Clinton's communications director, Howard Wolfson.

"We don't make distinctions between delegates chosen by million of voters in a primary and those chosen between tens of thousands in caucuses,'' Wolfson said. "And we don't make distinctions when it comes to elected officials'' who vote as superdelegates at the convention.

"We are interested in acquiring delegates, period,'' he added.

Clinton advisers rejected the notion that the candidate -- and the party -- would be badly wounded in the general election if the nominee were essentially selected by a group of party insiders.

(PS -- sorry if this has already been posted -- I didn't see it but DU moves so fast, I often don't look far enough back.)

[Yael]

1. Win at any cost, scorched earth tactics

Its about her, not the party.

:(

[NOVA_Dem]

22. She would lose 1/2 the party and LOSE the election anyway...

The Clintons and anyone associated with their campaign would become pariahs for the rest of their lives.

[maddiejoan]

2. OMG

How DARE Hillary work within the rules!!

[SoFlaJet]

3. Like she did in Florida?

nm

[maddiejoan]

4. what rule did she break in Florida?

[LostinVA]

18. She didn't break any rules in Florida

[Mezzo]

26. now do you need a piccie...

of Barack Obama campaigning in Florida?? It's out there, because he was the first to break the pledge.

That's right, Barack Obama campaigned in Florida and when the reporters asked him about it, he said something like, "Well we can stop this right now then".

[islandmkl]

5. yeah...those rules...designed to be exercised in just this manner...

wake up...the general party voters are co-opted by design...nice f****** rules

[Benhurst]

20. I don't like the rules either, and haven't for several election cycles.

The DNC would hardly have listened to me, though, if I had attempted to voice my displeasure with them.

On the other hand, I think any of our candidates would have had no trouble getting their views across to the DNC. Did any of them object?

The rules should be changed. I've thought so for some time. But changing them in the middle of an election is nothing but dishonest and self-serving, not matter who does it.

As it now stands, is anyone poised to win the majority -- not plurality-- of the votes and win the nomination according the rules agreed to by all our candidates?

Or is it going to have to be turned over to the convention, according to the agreed upon rules, to choose from among the biggest losers, all of whom have had more Democrats vote against than for them?

[ClassWarrior]

6. Dr. King taught us that it's our duty to oppose bad rules, not exploit them.

NGU.

[maddiejoan]

9. yeah

I'm sure Obama isn't courting any super delegates.

[ClassWarrior]

12. I thought we were talking about Sen. Clinton...

:shrug:

NGU.

[maddiejoan]

13. typical

[ClassWarrior]

16. Of what??

:rofl:

NGU.

[maddiejoan]

19. of the double standard applied to Clinton

versus Obama.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Where do you get the impression that I hold double standards?

Because I'm talking about one candidate in particular? Wow, that's paranoid.

NGU.

[slor]

17. I like your response...

I try to live my life like that.

[ClassWarrior]

31. Thanks. All Progressives should.

NGU.

[tpsbmam]

23. So you're just fine if....

Democratic (and Independent) voters have made a clear choice and she tries to override it with superdelegates? Look, I have no problem if we end up roughly 50-50 -- then let the nominee be chosen by the superdelegates and Hillary will win the nomination. But to blankly say that she'll try to garner the nomination by counting on superdelegates is way out of line IMO.

Voters have been disenfranchised too often in recent history. I'm not willing to stand for it again from either party.

[maddiejoan]

24. I'm saying

these were the ground rules set up before the primaries, and agreed to by all concerned.

The candidates ALL based their campaigns on the rules as set up.

[QC]

7. She didn't disenfranchise me.

That was Howard Dean.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Actually, that was your own state party.

:shrug:

NGU.

[QC]

11. Then deprive them of their superdelegate status.

The way this has been handled is guaranteed to hand Florida and Michigan to the GOP in November.

[ClassWarrior]

14. It's a little late now to be arguing this, isn't it?

NGU.

[liberalnurse]

8. Cry Babies

:spank: :cry:

[Independent-Voter]

15. You guys should really nix this SuperDelegate shit

It makes the Dems look like a damn banana republic. I like the proportional voting though, as it makes every state count instead of just the large ones.

[Kittycat]

21. I agree with you. However...

Even with proportional votes, HRC felt she didn't need to campaign in those many states. Which got her in to the mess it has, and why Obama was able to not only pull off unimaginable margins, but bring forward an incredible turnout that rivaled the republican turnout almost everywhere he went.

[bigtree]

29. first thing we should 'nix' is letting Indies vote in our primaries

we let them in, as if they give a damn about the success of our party.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. So where have you been for 30 years?

There are a whole lot of variables in this race, but for starters; Super Delegates are not an accident - ther are there by design and they have been there for 30 years. If Super Delegates were meant to be mechanical puppets they would not be there in the first place, there would be no need for them and no argunment for them, they would not exist. If that system was wrong for the Democratic Party, one would think that 3 decades was enough time for someone to notice and decide to change it. Suddenly some people want to change the process in mid stream when it serves their purpose. Super Delegates ARE there for a reason and that reason involves extremeely CLOSE races.

First, I will grant you this. If the pledged delegate count is not close, if Obama ends up ahead by 175 pledged delegates and the Super Delegates rally to Clinton and give her the nomination, that would be a serious problem. But if Obama ends up with 50 more pledged delegates out of many thousands, that is something else.

What if Obama's campaign starts to develope problems going down the stretch run? What if some negatives emerge in the press that shake some voter's confidence in him? What if Hillary wins both one on one debates with Obama that are coming up - and almost everyone who is objective sees that? What if say, John Edwards endorses Hillary, and some voters who voted for Edwards in early primaries now decide they want Clinton? What if Clinton and Obama go into the big important states at the end of the Primary season and suddenly all the momentum shifts to Hillary? What if she sweeps all of them heading into the convention?

There were a lot of quirks to this primary season, among them being 1.5 million Florida Democrats voting and not having their votes count. Let's say that Hillary does not get those delegates, but some of the Super Delegates decide to take that into account in deciding how to vote themselves, and so throw THEIR votes to Hillary? There is nothing against that in the rules, Super Delegates can weigh that. What if some Super Delegates think, like I do, that caucuses are not as democratic as primaries and take that into account, if Hillary is significantly ahead in the total from secret ballot voting? If Hillary Clinton sweeps all the big important primaries in March, but Obama still ends up with a handful of pledged delegates more than her but the tide has turned completely against him and Democrats are rallying to Hillary - THAT is exactly what the role of the Super Delegates was always designed to anticipate possibly happening.

If Obama holds his own going down the stretch he will be our nominee. Super Delegates won't stop him nor should they. If he is collapsing at that point however, that is a different situation. If that happens and he and Hillary end up virtually tied with him a few pledged delegates ahead but well short of the number needed to win the nomination; looking at Florida, looking at caucuses, looking at momentum, looking at the delegates Edwards won etc. those are the types of things Super Delegates are supposed to take into consideration at that point.

[bigtree]

27. what about Obama seeking to keep Florida voters from being represented at the convention?

those are votes cast, right in front of him, and he is encouraging their suppression for his political benefit. We don't have to wait until the convention to see whether these candidates respect the rights of those who have voted in this primary. Obama has a real and present test right in front of him, and he's opting for disenfranchising Florida Democrats behind the weight of party insiders. Not much of a profile in democracy.

[tpsbmam]

30. Disagree

The Democratic Party disenfranchised Michigan & Florida voters. Why should any candidate support including either state when he didn't run there? He made a pledge and he stuck by it. Hillary is fighting to have Michigan included, too, and Obama wasn't even on the ballot there. Please tell me how that's fair. She says she's not violating the DNC pledge she agreed to (pretty much verbatim) -- she most certainly is.

The whole thing was stupid on the part of Democrats -- no voters should be disenfranchised, period. It was a bad deal and should have been worked out better by the national and state parties.

[bigtree]

32. the 'Democratic Party' also set up the superdelegate system

because they didn't like the nomination of anti-war candidate George McGovern

[HeraldSquare212]

33. But I applaud her efforts to make sure all ballots in LA's urban areas are counted....Oh, wait...