Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

New Mexico Democratic Caucus Recount Results in more Questions than Answers

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:32 PM
Original message
New Mexico Democratic Caucus Recount Results in more Questions than Answers
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080214_new_mexico_democrati.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
February 14, 2008

By Steven Leser

Rewind back to Super Tuesday. In all the excitement about the evening’s events, the fact that New Mexico’s result ended up as too close to call may have been drowned out. By the next morning, New Mexico’s tally stood at Clinton with 68,659 votes or 49% of the vote and 13 all important delegates, and Obama with 67,538 votes or 48% of the vote and 12 delegates. There were approximately 17,000 provisional ballots cast that had yet to be counted along with a few precincts. New Mexico announced that in addition to counting the provisional ballots, they would conduct a complete hand recount to ensure that all votes were tallied correctly.

Election night and for a few days thereafter, I had referred CNN’s exit poll information for a clue on how things might turn out and I was continually surprised at how close the computed results were because the exit polls did not support the count. The exit polls showed Obama tied with Clinton for the women's vote at 46-46 with Edwards, Richardson and other receiving the other 8%. The exit polls showed Obama winning the male vote by approximately 53% to 39% (I am writing this from memory and you will see why below). Based on these exit polls, I concluded that the recount would give Obama a clear victory by about 5%.


Just a short time ago, the final numbers for New Mexico were released. According to the recount, Hillary Clinton won with a 1,709-vote margin over Obama, 73,105 to 71,396. I was shocked by this result. I went back to CNN and see that they have changed the amounts for the exit polls http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#NMDEM . CNN now shows Hillary with an edge among women of 52% to 46% in the exit poll and Obama with an edge among men of 53% to 43%. How and why does the exit poll tally change a week after the election?


Nor does the fact that New Mexico’s contest was a caucus invalidate the results of exit polls. New Mexico’s contest is called a caucus but is conducted much more like a primary; see this document by the New Mexico state Democratic Party --> http://www.nmdemocrats.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/1118155 meaning that exit polls are a valid way to determine how people voted.

Exit polls are an important tool in determining whether an election is conducted properly and without fraud. UN election monitoring agencies routinely use exit polls around the globe to determine if elections were fair. On the basis of exit polls alone the UN and the US have accused other countries and leaders of election fraud. I am not accusing anyone of anything, but these discrepancies cannot be allowed to stand without some clarification. Someone is going to have to explain why the exit polls were altered and what mistakes were made in either the exit polls or the actual vote. I’ve sent an email to CNN and will follow-up with an email to the New Mexico State Democratic Party that includes a link to this article. I will post any responses in an upcoming article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Do you have any proof these exit polls have changed?
A screencap, anything like that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Looking... I emailed the exit polls to a number of people that night and the next day...
that is the only reason I am so certain of it. But I do not think I took a screencap. We'll have to see what CNN says. If you are not happy with my say so, I completely understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. As mentioned NM has early voting that coudl effect exit polls as well.
They may have adjusted their polls to reflect those early votes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. How?
How would the male/female ratio change as a result of these early votes? Do New Mexico caucus voters have to indicate gender on their ballots?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Drivel. NM has early voting.
Same day exit polling becomes irrelevant in that situation. Also, if the provisional ballots were mostly registered Repubs trying to vote in a closed primary they got thrown out.

Steven could do with more common sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Not quite... the exit polls would still not change...
... if the answer was, the exit polls showed X, but because of early voting we got Y, that would be one thing, but that is not what we have here. We have the exit polls changing as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMMatt Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Exit polls always change
In every single election once they include the actual votes. Sometimes by a small amount, sometimes by a relatively large amount.

And I am an Obama supporter as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. See my response further below...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hillary supporters stole it. They got caught doing so. The UN should run their elections.
It's a chronic problem in New Mexico.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I'm not ready to say that, I just think we should have an explanation...
... hopefully someone will write back to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. They got caught with several ballot boxes they had taken home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Do you have a link?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, many of them. Please read this for Hillary's vote theft scheme in New Mexico
Haussamen writes, "The New Mexico Democratic Party caucus may be tainted by three ballot boxes that spent the night in the home of the Rio Arriba County party chair or the homes of other local election officials instead of being reported to the state party.
"Those ballots still haven’t been counted, but they have been retrieved by the state party.
"Several sources told me the ballot boxes spent the night at the home of Rio Arriba County Democratic Party Chair Theresa Martinez, whose state-lawmaker husband, Sen. Richard Martinez, endorsed Hillary Clinton. But Richard Martinez told Santa Fe New Mexican reporter Kate Nash that the boxes actually spent the night in the homes of three polling-place managers. He gave Nash no explanation for why the results from those ballots weren’t reported to the state party last night and why they were instead kept overnight in officials’ homes.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/76256/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4490265

http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=120&topic_id=3810&mesg_id=3810

http://www.democracyfornewmexico.com/democracy_for_new_mexico/2008/02/nm-dem-caucus-t.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. and here is another link
http://haussamen.blogspot.com/2008/02/uncounted-rio-arriba-county-ballots.html

3 ballot boxes go home with party boss that is Hillary supporter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I have explained to this person more than once that
no one had to steal anything for Hillary in New Mexico, especially in rural northern counties like Rio Arriba. That's where a couple of the ballot boxes--locked ballot boxes, with the votes already tablulated and the provisional ballots in sealed envelopes--were taken home, to be brought down to Albuquerque the next morning.

Doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that, outside of the central Rio Grande valley, New Mexico is basically quite rural, quite rugged, and on February 5th we had a major winter storm blowing in. I would have taken them home too.

Mr. "Texas Observer" should be damned glad it was as close for his candidate as it was, and stop whining and accusing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. I don't think a blowhard from
the state that inflicted George Bush on the world has any room whatsoever to cast aspersions on us New Mexicans. The ballots were counted, recounted, and counted a third time--ALL of them.

Deal with it, pinche tejano crybaby.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I think that he has you on ignore...
I've checked a number of his links and he never seems to respond to you. I'd probably put you on ignore too if you kept calling me silly names in slang Spanish.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Be my guest. He's a
blowhard, a coward, and a disrupter. You seem to be a bit more reasonable, but I don't see either one of you ever responding with any substance.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. 3 ballot boxes spent the night at the home of ... Dem. Party Chair.....
3 ballot boxes weren't counted on election night, instead they went home with a party boss.



From New Mexico political reporter Heath Haussaman:
Uncounted Rio Arriba County ballots raise eyebrows

"Several sources told me the ballot boxes spent the night at the home of Rio Arriba County Democratic Party Chair Theresa Martinez, whose state-lawmaker husband, Sen. Richard Martinez, endorsed Hillary Clinton"

http://haussamen.blogspot.com/2008/02/uncounted-rio-arriba-county-ballots.html



So Hillary wins by 1,709 ballots. How many ballots were in those 3 boxes?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. The exit polls showed Clinton winning LA. No one complained then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Then we need an explanation there too.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 06:48 PM by stevenleser
Do you have a link? Fair elections are more important to me than any particular candidate at any time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. scriptures say if obama lost it is automatically fraud...oh and no gay marriage either nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Oh brother.
Did I say it was fraud?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Nobody said it was fraud except you. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. If you ignore posts 5 & 15.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMMatt Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. The exit polls change...
Because CNN changes the numbers to incorporate the demographics of the polls and the actual results when they come in. So the poll itself does not change, only the numbers are updated to reflect the actual votes. That is the way it has been done for years.

Please note that an exit poll is a small sample of voters that is supposed to figure out the demographics of the electorate and an estimate of the vote totals. They are certainly far less reliable than a 100% poll, which is what an election count is. However, election counts do not include demographic voting patterns, therefore the numbers are merged to estimate the demographics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. But the ratio of men to women that was reported on election night did not change
only the percentage in which women voted. That is very suspicious to me. I guess we will have to see what CNN sends back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yeswecan08 Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. Proof that Hillary cheated : Look at how long it took
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
29. ROFLMAO! Don't Quit Your Day Job. Well, Unless This Is Your Day Job. Then By All Means, Quit It.
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC