Which is a bigger issue: Donnie McClurkin or DOMA?

[ButterflyBlood]

I'd say the DOMA is a much bigger deal than some guy appearing at a few events.

[TeamJordan23]

1. DOMA. nm

[mondo joe]

2. Obama's willingness to sell us out to, and give a platform to, religious bigots, is

a big issue for me.

And Clinton is against DOMA, so that's not an issue.

[NMMatt]

3. Contrary to popular opinion...

Clinton is NOT for repealling it outright. She is for modifying it:

ABC New Story

[mondo joe]

5. Good enough. As a strategy, that might help to get it repealed. NT

[FrenchieCat]

10. What about Don't ask Don't tell......DADT?

"Don't ask, don't tell" is the common term for the U.S. military policy which implements Pub.L. 103-160 (10 U.S.C. § 654). Unless one of the numerous exceptions from 10 U.S.C. § 654(b) applies, the policy prohibits anyone who "demonstrate(s) a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts" from serving in the armed forces of the United States, because it "would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability." The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation, or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces. The policy also requires that as long as gay or bisexual men and women in the military hide their sexual orientation, commanders are not allowed to investigate their sexuality. The net effect of this policy is that the military does not take an official stance against being gay or bisexual; one must engage in open homosexual acts to commit a punishable offense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell


It is amazing that DADT and DOMA would feel ok to you, and a Gospel singer loosely associated with a campaign event would make you go ballistic and talk of suicide.

I wonder how many in the Military have had to be closeted and how many may have killed themselves?

Her Navy career had been "relatively stress-free" before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" took effect, says Joan Darrah, a retired captain, and a lesbian, who served in various intelligence billets from 1972 to 2002. She kept her sexual orientation secret during her career, but that denial took its toll after "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" led to increased focus on homosexuality in the ranks. She recalls having to administer a survey on the topic to 250 subordinates in the wake of the new policy. "We all sat down taking this survey asking, 'Do you know a gay person, and, if you did, what would you do?' " Dannah recalls. "I was physically sick after I did it - I went into the bathroom and threw up because of the stress of standing in front of the command and saying, 'We're now doing a survey about gays in the military.' "
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080131/us_time/dontaskdonttellturns15

[NMMatt]

23. Good enough. As a strategy for Clinton.

Fixed your post. If Obama was taking Clinton's position and Clinton was taking Obama's, there would probably be 10 threads a day claiming Obama is not supportive of gay rights.

I don't have a problem with you supporting her... it just is obviously not due to gay rights. Your support obviously is due to something else, and you just happen to see these issues and everything else through the lense of your support.

[mondo joe]

28. You're quite wrong. I do support Cliton largely because of GLBT issues.

And that puts me squarely with most gay people.

[donheld]

4. There's a war that's more important

There's a broken economy that's more important.
There's an enormous national debt that's more important.
There's a health care system that's more important.
There's a disgraceful education system that's more important.

How's that for a start?

[mondo joe]

6. Gay kids being driven to commit suicide is important. US Citizens being denied equal rights is

important.

It's good of you to at least admit that GLBT people don't make your priority list.

[donheld]

13. It's too bad you don't think

the ecomony in shambles is important to GLBT, That the national debt will have an impact on GLBT, that health care is needed for GLBT. That fixing the education system is important to GLBT. Yes GLBT issues are important, but so are a few other things.

[mondo joe]

15. Civil Rights has always been a priority for me, for all people. I'm not willing to sell GLBT

people short on that.

[donheld]

16. Barack Obama has worked to give us our civil rights

Barack:

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts of our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."

[mondo joe]

19. TalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalk and then Sell Out to Religious Bigots.

Sorry, but I don't care to be sold as just another "sinner".

[donheld]

24. I don't give a crap who thinks I'm a sinner

Let them think. They can just blow it out their asses. Individually and Collectively. They can blow it out their asses. Anyone who sat by and watch Bush and his cabal run roughshod over our constitution is not going to tell me who's a sinner or who's a saint.

[mondo joe]

27. I give a crap about the impact this construct has on GLBT people - especially kids.

I give a crap about perpetuating it.

You don't care about it, I understand. But I do.

[donheld]

31. I grew up very painfully as one of those kids. Of course I care

I also care that those kids have health care. I care if those kids have an education. I care if those kids have jobs to go to. I care that those kids have a planet that's not warming by the minute. Sometimes there's just more to care about than a person can handle.

[mondo joe]

33. There's no need to sacrifice GLBT kids to have healthcare, education and the rest.

[donheld]

39. I firmly believe Obama will see that doesn't happen.

[mondo joe]

42. And I don't share that belief, at all. I think the religious bigots matter more to him

than those GLBT kids.

So there you have it.

[MagsDem]

44. I don't - if he were president gay people will be invisible

He will pretend we don't exist.

[Firespirit]

57. Much of Obama's support COMES FROM "kids."

"Kids," with a few nasty exceptions, are welcoming of LGBT people, and see them as people, not "LGBT." There are quite a few gay staffers on Obama's campaign that I know personally.

If he really is the cynical, manipulative politician that many Hillary supporters say he is, he'll remember who got him there. And it won't be the homophobes.

[MagsDem]

64. With all due respect....

I think he did use the homophobes to get himself here. McClurkin popped up about the time that there started to be concern over whether black women would support him or Hillary. I'm not black, but I have worked in gay politics long enough to hear many, many stories about how hard it is for black GLBT people to be out in their communities. Many blacks are very religious and very much unaccepting of GLBT people. Not so very different, in that ONE respect to white evangelicals. I can tell you that here in WA state when we tried and did pass civil rights legislation for LGBT people our main opposition was the black churches.

I think McClurkin was a part of Obama proving his bona fides to black people of faith. I'm not saying Obama is a bigot, just that he was willing to throw LGBT people under the bus for political purposes.

[Firespirit]

70. You think what you will

There's no way to prove that theory right or wrong. It hinges on the personal motivations inside Obama's mind, and no one can know beyond a doubt what those are.

I'm not in the Obamanation, I'm far, far too cynical to understand it or identify with it, but I have a personal bone to pick with Clinton that I don't feel like getting into here. If Obama did have McClurkin for the reasons you suggest... well, he joins the long list of Democratic presidential candidates who make a calculated move. People say a lot and appear with many people on the campaign trail, and rarely does it reflect accurately their records if they get elected. It's pandering. It happens.

[MagsDem]

76. Agreed in all respects

:)

[donheld]

75. I know a good number of gay men, besides myself, as

I spend a fed hours with my guys every day. I've discussed this McClurkin/Caldwell crap at length with a good many of them. They all see it as a mis-step but none of them see it as a threat or as Obama throwing us under the bus. It's only here at DU where it gets crazy.

[MagsDem]

34. I don't understand how any gay person can embrace Obama

After he made it so clear homophobia was acceptable and gave that jerk a stage to spew his venom.

[donheld]

36. Mag's you don't see how anyone can give Obama air to breathe

[MagsDem]

40. He can have air to breathe - no problem

Just not in the WH. :)

[MagsDem]

32. Good for you... did you hear about his today?

http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/king021408.html - Sad. But this is what happens when we pander to homophobes and set an example that it's alright to hate gay people.

An openly gay junior high student has been pronounced braindead following an attack by a classmate, according to the Los Angeles Times.

15-year-old Lawrence King, attending E.O. Green Junior High School in Oxnard, California, was rushed to St. John's Regional Medical Center after being shot in the head and back in the school's computer lab Tuesday. His condition was said to be improving, but following an examination by two neurosurgeons, King is considered clinically dead and being kept on life support pending possible donation of his organs.

The attack is not thought to be gang-related.

King was said to have sometimes worn makeup and feminine jewelry. Said classmate Michael Sweeney, "He would come to school in high-heeled boots, makeup, jewelry and painted nails -- the whole thing. That was freaking the guys out."

Fellow students also tell the Los Angeles Times that King was harassed on a regular basis. He had been involved in an argument with a group of boys that included his alleged shooter, who is said by a witness to have specifically threatened him, on Monday.

[MagsDem]

25. Oh yeah, what "work" did he do?

Please enlighten me. Because I have been a lesbian all my life working on this issue. This issue and healthcare are why I am involved in politics. Yet I have never heard of him before he decided he wanted to be president. He hasn't done shit as far as I can tell.

[dkf]

82. Do you really think that same sex marriage will fix everything?

Is that the solution?

I dunno. I don't think it would do much to alter public perception. I think the only thing that will work is time, when our younger generation takes over.

[MagsDem]

21. Sorry, but no, they aren't more important

They may be equally as important, but they aren't more important. I wonder if you would have been so rude as to say that to a black person back in 1960? Civil rights and human rights are never less important than anything.

[nonconformist]

26. And I have no confidence that Obama would handle those issues any better

than he's handled the GLBT community.

[FrenchieCat]

7. DOMA

The Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, is the commonly-used name of a federal law of the United States that is officially known as Pub.L. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419, enacted 1996-09-21 and codified at 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C. The law has two effects.

No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) need recognize a marriage between persons of the same sex, even if the marriage was concluded or recognized in another state.
The Federal Government may not recognize same-sex or polygamous marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states.

The bill was passed by Congress by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate<1> and a vote of 342-67 in the House of Representatives<2>, and was signed by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996.

At the time of passage, it was expected that at least one state would soon legalize same-sex marriage, whether by legislation or judicial interpretation of either the state or federal constitution. Opponents of such recognition feared (and many proponents hoped) that the other states would then be required to recognize such marriages under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the United States Constitution.

Including the results of the 2006 midterm elections, one state (Massachusetts) allows same-sex marriage, five states recognize some alternative form of same-sex union, twelve states ban any recognition of any form of same-sex unions including civil union, twenty-six states have adopted amendments to their state constitution prohibiting same sex marriage, and another twenty states have enacted statutory DOMAs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

[MonkeyFunk]

8. DOMA was a republican idea, pushed on Clinton

He signed it to forestall a constitutional amendment. It wasn't Clinton's idea.

[FrenchieCat]

11. He signed it.

He threw folks under the bus, it would seem.

But of course, that's not bigger than some Homophone Black Gospel singer. Of course not!

[MonkeyFunk]

12. Yes

he signed it to forestall a constitutional amendment. It was an election year ploy by republicans.

I know what happened.

[FrenchieCat]

14. So nothing is the Clintons' fault ever. 15 years later, the devil made them do it. hey?

How weak is that? :shrug:

one day after Clinton and Obama took part in a forum sponsored by the Human Rights Campaign. While both candidates oppose legalizing same-sex marriage, the two Democrats are sharply at odds on whether they would completely repeal DOMA.

The 1996 law, approved by former President Bill Clinton, has two key components: One stipulates that no state need recognize a marriage between persons of the same sex, even if the marriage was recognized in another state; the other prohibits the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages for any purpose, even if recognized by one of the states.

During Thursday's gay rights forum in Los Angeles, Clinton reiterated her support for repealing the portion of DOMA that pertains to federal benefits.

"I want to repeal Sec. 3 of DOMA, which stands in the way of the extension of benefits to people in committed same-sex marriages, and, you know, I will be very strongly in favor of doing that as president," said Clinton at Thursday's forum.

Clinton, however, opposes repealing the full statute.

From a political standpoint, Clinton is seen as holding a sounder general-election position than Obama because she favors an added safeguard against the spread of same-sex marriage. But given that the former first lady is weary of offending the gay community during her tough primary fight with Obama, Clinton's campaign declined to respond directly to Tribe's criticism.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3468949&page=2

[MonkeyFunk]

20. I already explained what happened

Anybody who was aware at the time knew exactly how DOMA came about. It wasn't Clinton's idea.

Republicans tried to fuck him up, as usual. I don't see what else he could've done.

He could've vetoed it and faced an override and a lost election, or even a constitutional amendment.

One thing is sure - gays wouldn't be better off if he had vetoed it.

[FrenchieCat]

47. You are so full of excuses, that it is actually scary.

Why wouldn't Gays be better off if he had vetoed it. Please tell me.

We lost congress.

We got NAFTA.

We got the 1996 Telecommunications Act that has helped spread the hate.

I really can't talk to you anymore....

You are irrational.

[MonkeyFunk]

48. Do you know what the vote for DOMA was

in congress?

[FrenchieCat]

51. I'm not gay, so I'm stupid!

:eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

56. Did I say anything of the sort?

So in case you didn't know, DOMA passed the Senate 85-14, and the House 342-67.

A veto would surely be overriden, and could spur support for a constitutional amendment.

So he had two options - veto it, risk losing the election and hurting democrats everywhere, or sign it.

It wasn't his bill. It wasn't his idea. The Republicans put it forth to get EXACTLY the reaction you're giving, all these years later. You're being played like a fiddle and don't even know it.

[FrenchieCat]

59. So I guess it can't ever be touched, hey?

Cause Hillary ain't gonna repeal it.

Backed into a corner and no where to go feels like the right place to be, right?

Me, I'd rather back a candidate who is talking about United as One with Black, White, Gay, Straight, Rich and Poor. Cause that's what's needed. Someone who can articulate a whole other mentality in these United States.

But you are welcome to build your bridge back to the 20th Century. Good luck with that. Me, I'm gonna go forward with the rest of the folks who understand "Change" and recognize history in the making.

[MonkeyFunk]

61. Why change the subject?

What do you think the politically wise thing for Bill Clinton to do was?

[FrenchieCat]

63. He could have vetoed it and articulated why it made no sense......

and that it should be left to the states....considering that Repugs are State right folks, it could have been finessed.

Bill Clinton just wasn't all that.

[MonkeyFunk]

66. And the veto would be overriden easily

so the same law would be in effect.

And he would've likely lost the election and lost a lot of congressional seats. Instead, we picked up 8 House seats, and only lost 2 Senate seats and kept the White House. Would a President Dole have been better for gays and lesbians?

Explain how your answer is politically wise.

[FrenchieCat]

67. and?

So what? Then at least he wouldn't have made it easy.

Funny how you know so much about Hypothetical situation, and exactly how they turn out.

I do to, and I say OBama will win, and he will do for Gay rights what you have been waiting for, for the last 15 years.

[MonkeyFunk]

69. You failed to explain how his decision

was politically unwise.

So... the veto is overriddeen easily. Dole is in the White House, and there's likely a larger Republican majority in congress, and an effort to pass a constitutional amendment underway.

How does that benefit gays and lesbians?

[MagsDem]

80. what has Obama EVER done for gay people?

Nothing good so far. I'm sorry, I just don't know where you get all your happy dance ideas about this guy. I think someone's going to have to put you on suicide watch once you figure out that he is all talk and no action.

[nonconformist]

29. And what kind of legislation do you think Mr Let's Negotiate and Compromise will pass?

Stop kidding yourself.

Legislation passed under Clinton in compromise with the right wing SUCKS. But, compromise and working together with the right is the entire premise of Obama's campaign, so now I'm supposed to believe that is the key for winning, the key for change and the key for a successful administration?

[NMMatt]

37. It remains to be seen...

But when the Clintons triagulate against the LGBT community again, I'm going to love to read the rationalizations.

[MagsDem]

78. Actually I can see it right now with Obama

And I don't like what I see.

[MagsDem]

77. That puzzles me too

I don't get how you can hate Clinton and the DLC (which I do NOT like at all), but be this big champion of what Obama preaches. I think Hillary is much more progressive than Bill, so I am hoping she doesn't do a repeat of what he did in some instances. But with Obama it's the whole game plan from the get go.

To me it's like, if you didn't like Clinton you will really not like Obama. They don't see it though. They are under some spell.

[MagsDem]

35. HE IS NOT RUNNING

[NMMatt]

38. But she is running on his record -nt

[MagsDem]

50. But not on his policies

And neither of them have ever pandered to homophobes. Monkeyfunk is right, he wasn't dying to sign DOMA. And he spoke to GLBT leaders about it. He was frank that he did not support gay marriage, but he was afraid if he didn't sign DOMA there would be a constitutional admendment passed. And he told us very clearly, that will be worse for you in the long run.

[mondo joe]

9. Are you a GLBT person? Are you committed to GLBT issues? Do they impact

you directly?

[NMMatt]

49. Go ahead and support her

But don't expect different results. Clinton will sell out the LGBT community in a second if it is the politically expedient thing to do. The fact is that the Clintons refused to spend any political capital on the behalf of gays in their first term, and I'd be shocked if they do this time.

[MagsDem]

58. Like Obama already has, you mean?

[MagsDem]

17. Obama pandering to homophobes, and....

giving them a stage. Tells me what kind of leader he would be. DOMA was 12 yrs ago and the country has changed in that regard (at least the blue states). Has nothing to do with Hillary anyway. That was Bill's deal and he isn't running.

[DGoldman1212]

22. Bill is running...

All over the country for Hillary's campaign. Call on her to demand that he stand down his support of DOMA and DADT. Imagine if Hillary was not a candidate and Obama was using Bill to campaign for him...it would be just as wrong. Obama is not using McClurkin but Hillary IS using Bill - the man who signed Jim Crow into law.

[MagsDem]

30. huh, I wonder why he's not on any ballots then

Why do I give a fuck if Clinton "stands down" his opinions on GLBT rights? Guess what, I don't care what Michelle Obama or Cindy McCain think about it either.

And did I say Obama was using McClurkin? Far as I can tell he already used him. What I said was Obama panders to homophobes. Bill Clinton never did that. Not for a frigging second. And don't even try to rewrite history.

On Friday, September 20, prior to signing the Defense of Marriage Act, President Clinton released the following statement:

Throughout my life I have strenuously opposed discrimination of any kind, including discrimination against gay and lesbian Americans. I am signing into law H.R. 3396, a bill relating to same-gender marriage, but it is important to note what this legislation does and does not do.

I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages and this legislation is consistent with that position. The Act confirms the right of each state to determine its own policy with respect to same gender marriage and clarifies for purposes of federal law the operative meaning of the terms "marriage" and "spouse".

This legislation does not reach beyond those two provisions. It has no effect on any current federal, state or local anti-discrimination law and does not constrain the right of Congress or any state or locality to enact anti-discrimination laws. I therefore would take this opportunity to urge Congress to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, an act which would extend employment discrimination protections to gays and lesbians in the workplace. This year the Senate considered this legislation contemporaneously with the Act I sign today and failed to pass it by a single vote. I hope that in its next Session Congress will pass it expeditiously.

I also want to make clear to all that the enactment of this legislation should not, despite the fierce and at times divisive rhetoric surrounding it, be understood to provide an excuse for discrimination, violence or intimidation against any person on the basis of sexual orientation. Discrimination, violence and intimidation for that reason, as well as others, violate the principle of equal protection under the law and have no place in American society.

[DGoldman1212]

45. Interesting spin...

"I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages and this legislation is consistent with that position."

Sweet!

So what are you reading in those comments that makes you proud and partially venomous in your rhetoric and responses?

[MagsDem]

53. Not a single politician did

It was like declaring yourself to be atheist. :)

[Firespirit]

18. I'd love to see an end to the special benefits, tax write-offs, etc., made available to marrieds

The tax code of this country rewards people for marrying. It's unfortunate, very unfortunate, that these benefits are available only to straights, but why should they be available to anyone, in fairness?

[Beregond2]

43. Newsome, etc.

I'M a gay man, and gay issues affect ME directly, and you gays that are against Obama because of these appearances he made, even though he has stated his support of gay rights very clearly and in venues where that could do him nothing but harm...well, you have your heads up your asses. The Clintons have never done anything for gays but throw us under the bus whenever it suited them. Wake up and smell the coffee!

As for this crap about him not wanting to get his picture taken with Newsome...ROFLMAO! Are you kidding me with this shit? THAT is what you are putting up against a woman who thinks nothing of supporting the murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people for her own political advantage? Since that doesn't seem to mean anything to you, let me try something that is more on your level: SHE WEARS CANARY YELLOW PANTSUITS! Does that shock your tiny little sensibilities enough to change your minds, assuming you have any?

God, I hate my people sometimes...

[NMMatt]

52. lol well said

I would think her wardrobe alone would be enough to at least split the community between gays and lesbians :P.

[DGoldman1212]

55. Its the powder blue pantsuits N/T

[MagsDem]

60. Sounds more like you hate yourself

[Bluebear]

68. Or another "gay for a day" poster.

"I'm gay too and blah blah blah"

[Bluebear]

41. Ah, are you gay or straight to begin with?

[Firespirit]

46. More important than either: equal rights in employment and housing. eom

[MagsDem]

62. Yeah, that'd be a nice start

I finally just moved to a blue state. I know that's not possible for everyone, but if you can if will cure that problem pretty quick.

[Firespirit]

65. It is a disgrace that anyone should have to move anywhere to get rights

But, I do know what you mean. Where I used to live, a university town even, the LGBT group at the college was forced to hold meetings in secret because of threats and vandalism, and cowardly law enforcement that didn't want to "side with the queers."

Now if only my segment could be taken seriously by anyone.... :shrug:

[jlake]

54. One threatens people's lives. I'll leave it at that.

[readmoreoften]

71. And how do you think Obama would've handled DOMA 15 years ago?

Shit, you're kidding me, right?

[NMMNG]

72. The "Ex-Gay" industry is a psycho-spiritual terrorist agenda.

Its ultimate aim is to not only rob LGBTs of what rights we have and keep us from getting any more, but to destroy us in the process.



DOMA merely keeps us from having federally recognized marriage rights.




Does that answer your question?

[Bluebear]

73. God didn't "cure" this boy of his homosexuality in time...he was shot.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2863025

[NMMNG]

74. I know

And someone there had the audacity to claim that if there had been school uniforms it wouldn't have happened. As if he, not the bigot, bore the blame for the crime. "d00d, just don't dress gay and you won't get shot!"

:grr:

[MagsDem]

79. Hey, that sums it up really well

Kudos! for such a succinct explanation.

[TheDonkey]

81. DOMA, DADT, Denying Civil Unions I'd imagine. McClurkin can say whatever he'd like as long as I get

my right.