Since I've been gone

[Mythsaje]

A couple of weeks ago I started showing symptoms of a major pinched nerve in my neck or upper back. I was in a lot of pain and unable to focus particularly well on anything. Even going to work, which I continued to do, was an exercise in continual torment. I went to the doctor and got anti-inflammatories and painkillers and I did my best to continue on with all my usual obligations, including working on my newest novel and editing my last one in preparation for its upcoming publication.

I was unabashedly an Edwards supporter and I just caught the briefest snippets of his dropping out of the race and my heart sank like a hunk of granite in a pond. I imagine the feeling was similar to those who supported Kucinich, Biden, and Dodd when their particular candidate chose to leave the race. I'm sure most of us are aware that the corporate media has gone to great lengths to manipulate our choices this time around.

Over the past few months, I've been genuinely appalled by the level of discourse here. The whole primary debate has turned into a junkyard brawl between the supporters of Hillary and Barack and every single negative talking point has been dredged up from even the deepest sewers including FOX News and every RW rag in existence to allegedly "help" make the case for or against whichever candidate one wanted to blast.

People I once respected have waded into the fray and cheapened themselves by using spurious, degenerate arguments with respect to the candidate they didn't favor in order to prop up the one they do. I've seen things I would have sworn I'd never see here, not only once, but time after time after time. I've seen people quite happily piss all over the Clintons who, as we know, were hardly perfect, but still stood far and away better than any possible Republican alternative. I've seen people wave the red flag of racism, saying that we couldn't possibly nominate Barack because it would bring out the bigots in droves.

I've seen people making horrendous personal attacks on one another, belittling people who are, ostensibly, on the same side as themselves because of a difference of opinion about which candidate would serve us best in the long run. Frankly, I've been both disappointed and disgusted.

Do both our potential candidates have baggage? Hell, yeah. Hillary has a ton of baggage. She's the inheritor of a Presidential legacy that has both good and bad points, and the inheritor of a kind of mindless hatred that is staggering in its scope and breadth. The Right Wing hates Hillary so much that it's impossible to even determine what it is they hate about her. From where I sit, Hillary is part of the old-time DC establishment. John Edwards called her the "status quo" candidate and, I admit, I called her that months before he did. I truly believe that for all of that, she could end up being a very good President. Is she the best possible candidate? I don't think so. But all the best candidates, in my opinion, dropped out long before we reached this point. She is not the Wicked Witch of the West, or East, but a woman who has a long history of serving the American people as well as her own ambitions. Perfect? Far from it. But far better in many respects than a lot of people, including many Democrats, would like to paint her.

And Barack? Ironically enough, many of his positives are seen as negatives. His supporters are SO certain that he's the ultimate icon of hope and change that any criticism of him is met with almost rabid attacks on the intellect and character of anyone who dares to presume a right to judge. His speechifying is so inspiring to some that he could get up there and say nothing of consequence and they would STILL think whatever he said was as compelling as anything ever spoken by JFK or MLK.

Frankly, I never caught fire from one of his speeches. I was always left wondering, 'what the hell is he talking about?' He's an icon of "post-partisan" politics which, to me, is as ridiculous as concept as any I've ever heard. On one side we see a group of people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power, who despise the poor, gays, women, and minorities, who'd like nothing more than to hand all the power in this country over to a handful of powerful men who'd love to forge another gilded age, who think America has the right and the duty to use everything up to and including military force to push its will on the rest of the world. On the other side you have those who believe in America as a symbol of freedom, hope, and justice. Those who would like to judge people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin or who they happen to love. Who believe women are as worthy of respect and admiration as men, and who believe that America is a more potent force for democracy and justice throughout the world as an example of such things rather than a military power devoted to spreading them through the force of arms.

How does one reconcile these two sides? Where is the path to "post-partisanship" there? Which side is most willing to compromise, and what would each be willing to sacrifice to move beyond partisanship? When I ask this question, I find myself in fear of the answer. But for all of this, he has the potential to do great things for us all. Whether he'll succeed is another question altogether. He believes that he can open negotiations with people who have shown no interest in negotiating on any terms but their own for as far back as I can remember, but, hey, there's always hope, right?

I frankly question whether either candidate would dedicate him or her self to bringing about meaningful, much needed change to our current political climate. But I do not question that either one of them would be far better in the long run than McCain would ever be.

One of these two people will end up being our nominee. And no matter which it is, it doesn't mean the end of the world as we know it. Hillary may be "status quo" and Barack may be too enamored with the notion of "post-partisanship," but, regardless, they are the two choices before us now. And, I believe, one of them will most likely end up as President of the United States. Even those conservatives I've spoken to in the last few months believe this to be the case.

People here can spend the next few months spewing venom at one another over their choice of a nominee, but I, for one, will not be participating. If people I once respected are so willing to engage in such behavior to no good reason, to slime not only the candidates but their fellow DUers over what seems to me to be a minor disagreement (being that I think both candidates are coming from the same general direction), I'm not sure what the point to all of this is. Only a few people seem to have stayed above the fray and I salute each and every one of them for doing so.

As I said before, my choice was John Edwards. Because he spoke directly to the very thing I think is most wrong with this country, from which nearly every other one of our most serious problems stems...corporate greed and undeserved political influence and access. And Edwards, like Kucinich before him, was deliberately marginalized because he dared to challenge the bedrock of modern American politics.

If it's become nothing more than a pissing contest between those who want Hillary in the White House versus those who want Barack in the White House, based upon little more than a couple of degrees of ideological separation, I wash my hands of the whole fucking thing. Neither of these two candidates turn my crank. But I'm more than willing to vote for either of them come the GE, because even a "status quo" Democrat is a damn sight better than the likes of John McCain. Baggage and all. Bill and all. "Cult of personality" and all. "Post-Partisanship" and all.

I don't think it's really about ideology anymore. I think it's about ego, it's about backing what one sees as the "winning team." Both of them seem to me to be decent public servants, probably no more or no less ambitious or ego-driven than anyone else who's thrown his or her hat in the ring for the job over our two hundred and some odd year history.

If any of either candidates most rabid supporters actually believe they're doing themselves or their candidates any favors by acting like a bunch of spoiled jerks on this message board, or any other, they're sadly mistaken.

It's gotten so bad here of late that Skinner and company has been forced to implement what I personally consider some of the most stupid rules possible. Because of SOME people, the ability of anyone to start more than three threads in GDP in a twenty four hour period has been suspended. I don't blame them for doing it, but I'm disgusted by the fact that so many people agreed that it was necessary.

I'm fairly disgusted by the whole thing at this point. I originally joined Democratic Underground because I wanted to be a part of a community I thought was caring, compassionate, and intelligent, willing to set aside minor differences to fight for causes that could make a real difference in this nation and the world at large. I've generally come to support the Democratic Party because I believe that the majority of its members are truly decent people who want to help build a better world for everyone.

But I'm not happy with many of our so-called "leaders" in Congress. I'm not particularly happy with the party machine at this point either. And I'm not all that thrilled by the actions and attitudes of a sizeable minority of those invested in one of the two remaining potential Democratic nominees. I'm glad we're not the Republicans, inherently predisposed to march in lockstep. But I don't think allowing ourselves to fracture into a thousand squabbling factions at the drop of a talking point is much of a recommendation either.

So, if it suits you all, please continue spitting in the faces of those who might well be your allies come this November. Keep treating one another as if you think anyone who doesn't see it your way is brain damaged or a Repug troll in disguise. I'm sure in some alternate universe it's actually good for the party, the American people, and the human race.

Or maybe not.

[mmonk]

1. Good post.

It's getting where one has to leave and catch their breath before coming back. Of course, there is GD for us. But congress ends up being frustrating too with big televised investigations of steroids instead of crimes we have endured. No rest for the weary.

[CreekDog]

2. Good post and welcome back

I'm an Obama supporter who is having very negative feelings about Hillary Clinton right now over some tactics and messages her campaign is using.

That said, if she wins the nomination fairly by being on top in the primary process, I will support her, work for her, contribute to her.

Second, I really, really like Obama, but I am realistic about him. He is not our savior, he is not perfect, etc. etc. I think he has a lot of qualities that will make him successful in achieving many things I wish for this country. But his supporters need to look at him realistically, to recognize his humanness, that he can make mistakes --not to feel bad about him, but so they aren't disappointed when it turns out he's just a human being like all the rest and while very good is not perfect, because at that point, he will need their support.

Chances are that Barack, should he get elected, will weather fierce criticism when he actually tries to implement the change we crave and he may even make mistakes in the process but still be on track to achieve great things, provided we support him and don't expect perfection.

I supported Clinton when he disappointed me in insignficant things, while impressing me in significant things. This is the nature of politicians.

Our job as voters and activists is to shrewdly decide who is best for our cause, the cause always being preeminent over the person trying to achieve it for us (or with us). Thus if our champion is not perfect, but is still effective for our cause, we can accept the imperfection and still provide our support.

I appreciate the dose of realism and I wanted to share my own. I'm not in any cult, but I would love to see him win, but I recognize that he is not perfect and I'm sure most supporters here do as well.

[unhappycamper]

3. Good post Mythsaje.

My guy (Kucinich) dropped out early. My next guy (Edwards) did the same. I'm frustrated as hell, but I will vote for a dem in the GE.

k&r

[Inspired]

4. You stated this very well.

Thank you!

[Libby2]

5. Great post. Welcome back.

[bigtree]

6. heh

good perspective.

[blondie58]

7. welcome back- you were missed

and you've stated it all so succinctly. This is my first election here, so I don't know if it is normal, but I am also disappointed in the language and the venom being spewed.


I hope that your pinched nerve heals fast!

[Guava Jelly]

8. thank you!

..

[chimpymustgo]

9. Excellent post. Kicked and rec'd. Some DU'er are startling with their viciousness.

This is WAY worse than 03-04, because it's lasting longer. The intensity is reaching delusional levels. Some people can't seem to think, or see straight anymore. It's a scorched path to the nomination.

No one is entitled to the nomination. Each candidates is required to tell us the plans and the methods of achieving them. BOTH candidates have positives and negatives.

It will be hard to come back together after all the braying and bullying and belligerence. Good luck, Democrats.

[Triana]

10. 110% Agreed. Excellent post.

You summed up my feelings exactly - and I'm undecided as well and feel pretty much the same about the two remaining candidates. As you said, the best candidates were gone long before now.

It IS all about ego at this point, I think, and I've ranted and raved about the sewage level of discourse here myself in the past few days. Eeegggh!

Regarding the pinched nerve - a friend of mine had one of those things, and it turned out to be a blocked artery! I don't know what your particular situation is but wanted to put that out there in case that's something you might like to get checked - or maybe you have already. Anyway - just in case.

I certainly hope you're feeling better soon, regardless.

[K Gardner]

11. Welcome back, Mythsage. Hope you are feeling better and will stick around for awhile..

we do need cooler heads to prevail here :-) :hi:

[Marrah_G]

12. One of the best posts in a while

I have people on ignore now that I once had huge respect for.

I check DU less and less.

I am disgusted by the behavior of many Duers....and not just the trolls.

Those of you doing it know exactly who you are and you damn well should be ashamed of yourselves for treating your allies so horribly.

[FSogol]

13. Well said! And welcome back. K&R

[Maeve]

14. Welcome back--glad you're better

And I couldn't agree more. I've stayed out of this forum because I remember how toxic it gets...but I'm glad to return to it and find such a post, like a jewel in the mud.

[Catchawave]

15. Thank you for this, and feel better, y'hear !

We need you :hug:

[Longhorn]

16. I certainly couldn't have said it better! Thanks! K&R nt

[demokatgurrl]

17. EXCELLENT!!! Kick Kick Kick

I too just don't get the appeal of "post-partisanship" ideal or of non-partisanship. The parties exist for a reason. They are a way for people with like goals and believes (not IDENTICAL, however) to work as a team to get as much accomplished as possible toward those goals. No candidate is perfect for all of us, or even most of us. But when we vote, that's not what we are (should be) looking for. We are not electing a Messiah. When people frame it in terms of the "lesser of two evils", they misinterpret and mislead. The fact is, after the preliminaries (primaries and caucuses) play out, one of two or three people are GOING TO WIN the election. Whether we participate or not. Better to take a stand; oftentimes every vote really does count. I offer the Nader voters of the last presidential election as Exhibit A.

I am a Democrat. I don't want to be non-partisan, or "Independent". I resent very much the fact that non-Democrats can vote in our primaries and select OUR nominee.

To paraphrase what I heard recently on rightwingnut talk radio, ANY Democrat is better than anyone the Repugs will put up.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. Excellent post. Thank you.

[Silver Gaia]

19. Well said, Mythsaje! K&R

Glad you're back, and sorry to read that you've not been feeling well. Hope you're doing better now.

This post was a pleasure to read and rec. Thanks.

[hobbit709]

20. You've summed up pretty much how I feel about the whole thing.

[juajen]

21. OK, I asked for that. In my defense, I have no defense.

Welcome back. I wondered where you were and the board and I are better off with your return.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. You said what I've been thinking for weeks now, but couldn't articulate as well as you.

What the hell possesses people to engage in raging flame wars over two highly capable candidates who are ideologically almost identical? Ego, just as you said. People pick the candidate they like for whatever reasons that person appeals to them. And then they become so emotionally invested in that choice that any criticism of the candidate is seen as a criticism of their choice, and therefore a grave insult. And then it escalates to the point where the combatants seem to forget just what it is they are really fighting about.

I've pretty much stayed out of these wars except occasionally to throw a small cream pie in the face of a supporter of either candidate whose head was starting to explode. I have not expressed a strong preference for either after Edwards dropped out. I'm leaning toward Obama for strategic reasons -- I think he's more likely to win against McCain, and the goal, lest anyone forget, is to put a Democrat in the White House. If I thought Hillary would be more likely to win I'd be on her side of the fence. Since I'm being pretty cold-blooded about the whole thing I am not moved by rants and insults, or by starry-eyed paeans, either.

I just wish the candidates' more rabid supporters would grow the hell up.

Your post was excellent. Welcome back.

[Danger Mouse]

31. and i should add...a lot of supporters on both sides go beyond criticism of the candidate...

and straight for personal attacks of the supporters of that cadidate...'hillarybots' 'obamababies' 'cult members' 'shillbots'

[balantz]

23. Thanks for the sanity! And welcome back.

I know how those upper-back, pinched-nerve scenarios can go. I hope you are doing better. It just takes time for things to deflame and unkink sometimes, but boy it can be painful and debilitating!

[f the letter]

24. Welcome back! On-point. n/t

[benny05]

25. Well Said

K & R...

[philly_bob]

26. "corporate greed and undeserved political influence and access"

Class warfare! <grin>

Backs heal slowly, but they do heal, mythsaje. Glad you're back.

[caseycoon]

27. VERY glad to see you back Mythsaje! K&R

Yes, GDP has turned into a real cesspool. No telling what kind of creatures will come crawling out.

When Kucinich dropped out I hated it, but then happily supported Edwards. When he suspended that was kind of the end for me.

I have no great passion for either, but lean a bit toward Obama because I'm not as afraid of what he will do to our country. We lost the best ones....

[tandot]

28. Thanks, Mythsaje!

I wish the sane supporters of both candidates would jump in when someone posts some BS against the other candidate.

Good luck on your publication :hi:

[Straight Shooter]

29. Empathy for your pain and congratulations on your novels.

I wandered back into DU to learn what's going on with the primaries, see how the candidates are doing, pick up some talking points to offer people when we do have a nominee.

There are quite a few DU'ers whom I admire tremendously, but the atmosphere is so vitriolic, that I find myself reacting in kind, if only to defend my candidate, who, incidentally, was not my first choice. The time I spend here, I believe, would be far better spent in other venues to support her.

It's no different in other political forums on the Internet. America is dividing into smaller and smaller segments.

I hope you continue to improve in both your physical and financial health. Writing a novel is no easy task! :)

edit for grammar; after all, I'm responding to a writer

[Danger Mouse]

30. Excellent post.

I'm amazed at how willing people are on both sides of the aisle to burn their bridges and alienate themselves from people that should be their allies.

[Mark Twain Girl]

32. Bravo, Mythsaje -- a truly excellent post

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Especially this, which has become an increasingly looming problem for me:

How does one reconcile these two sides? Where is the path to "post-partisanship" there? Which side is most willing to compromise, and what would each be willing to sacrifice to move beyond partisanship? When I ask this question, I find myself in fear of the answer.

I'm feeling alienated from the entire process. I also consider Clinton and Obama to be pretty much the same on the ideological spectrum and I agree, it's become about ego, and winning at all costs, no matter the price. And lost in the fray is the crucial thing: "corporate greed and undeserved political influence and access." I can't help but feel we're being suckered. But there aren't any alternatives, and we're caught in the lesser of evils game, voting against Republicans. This is where we are, as the hard times deepen and we work harder and harder to survive.

I hope you heal and feel better soon.

[Blue State Blues]

33. Thanks for being a sane voice ...

... in the midst of a nonsensical "Tastes Great!" "Less Filling!" shouting match.

[Bake]

34. Excellent post, and glad to have you back!

I hope the docs can fix your pinched nerve problem.

Bake

[Cleita]

35. About that pinched nerve, see a specialist.

I got one forty years ago that went basically untreated because the best the doctors could come up with was pain-killlers and anti-inflammatories. I'm fighting arthritis and osteoporosis because of it today. If I had had the right physical therapy and traction treatments along with vitamin and mineral therapy, it would have been a different story for me.

[donkeyotay]

36. Excellent post. Thank you. nt

[solara]

37. I am very glad you are back.. I miss your posts

Thank you for being so articulate about a problem that seems a strange and oddly infectious plague. :hi:

INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :patriot:



:kick:

[emilyg]

38. Welcome back.

[hfojvt]

39. this board has always had its bitter feuds

even though we have always been supposedly on the same side against the BFEE. It has also long been the case that n00bs were considered suspect and that even some long-timers were considered moles or otherwise a$$holes.

My own opinion will probably add to my list of detractors, insofar as anybody even reads it or cares about what it says, but I blame Hillary for much of this even as the Hillary people blame some Obamites. Imagine if this contest was Biden vs. Obama or Edwards vs. Obama or Dodd vs. Edwards. Do you think it would be as nasty? I don't. For one thing, there would not be nearly as much mud for one side to Drudge up.

OTOH, imagine if this contest was Edwards vs. Hillary or Dodd vs. Hillary or Biden vs. Hillary. I think it would be just as nasty as now. For one thing, I, and at least a few others, began this primary as ABC and some are fairly passionate about that opposition. For another thing, some Clinton supporters would still be playing the M-card against HHHers, even though many of us don't also hate Barbara Boxer, Cindy Sheehan, Elizabeth Edwards, Tammy Baldwin, Kathleen Sebelius, Nancy Boyda, or Stephanie Herseth, etc., etc., etc.

Okay, Stephanie is on the list of Bush-dogs and recently got married so I am sure she has her detractors as well as those of us who are now heartbroken.

Further, although I expected/feared she would have the nomination clinched after Super Tuesday, I predicted that her candidacy would hurt the Democratic party.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/63

I think I can say 'I told you so' a little bit now. Although she surprisingly has her supporters here, along with people who have recently become ABO, I think her campaign started as one fueled by big money donors who wanted to insure a pro-business Democrat (DLCer) got the nomination. DU has been against that from the start as evidenced by our "act Blue" page which shows 166 donations to Edwards, 127 to Kucinich, 25 to Obama, 25 to Richardson, 14 to Biden, and 8 to Clinton and Gravel. Surprisingly only 7 for Dodd who has been our FISA champion.

Some of the recent support may also be how Hillary started to echo/copy John Edwards' rhetoric for the campaign, even though she didn't copy any of his specifics for ending poverty. Between that rhetoric, Krugman's endorsement, and Obama's "bi-partisan" rhetoric, some feel that Hillary is more progressive. DU also has a long history of looking at/concentrating on "things that are negative". For example, Milton Friedman's death got more attention than John Kenneth Galbraiths. Thus, when we split, both sides tend to talk about what they hate about the other side rather than what they like about their own.

[jdadd]

40. Great Post....

You have expressed my feelings better than I ever could have. I find myself coming to DU less often because of the constant bickering...Hell...If I'd liked to argue, I would still be married!!

[SeattleGirl]

41. You absolutely nailed it, Mythsaje.

It's so toxic in here, it's difficult to read anything. Have to wade through a lot of dreck to find a good post to read.

[annabanana]

42. On the other hand. . . I'm sure you're pleased to note

that Skinner has moved all the vitriol into it's own forum (formerly GD-Polictics) and limited posters to the # of threads per day they can start.

It maked the rest of the joint less stinky.

[progressoid]

43. Yeah, what he said

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[kestrel91316]

44. Never forget that DU gets taken over by very purposeful disrupters

during primary season. IMHO they are just fascist thugs and egomaniacal bored teens trying to make rational discourse impossible.

My ignore list is about 60, so I never even see most of the crap. Most of DUs problems originate from a miniority.

[kristopher]

45. What "post-partisanship" means

Thank you for an articulate rendering of your perspective. Sometimes the most difficult part of getting to important information is the proper phrasing of the question. You've done a fine job; this segment brought an area of confusion into perfect focus for me:

"He's an icon of "post-partisan" politics which, to me, is as ridiculous as concept as any I've ever heard. On one side we see a group of people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power, who despise the poor, gays, women, and minorities, who'd like nothing more than to hand all the power in this country over to a handful of powerful men who'd love to forge another gilded age, who think America has the right and the duty to use everything up to and including military force to push its will on the rest of the world. On the other side you have those who believe in America as a symbol of freedom, hope, and justice. Those who would like to judge people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin or who they happen to love. Who believe women are as worthy of respect and admiration as men, and who believe that America is a more potent force for democracy and justice throughout the world as an example of such things rather than a military power devoted to spreading them through the force of arms.

How does one reconcile these two sides? Where is the path to "post-partisanship" there? Which side is most willing to compromise, and what would each be willing to sacrifice to move beyond partisanship? When I ask this question, I find myself in fear of the answer."

The answer actually is extremely simple (that doesn't mean easy) - no reconciliation is necessary.

The two sides you describe are NOT defined by their political labels of Republican/Democrat and they are NOT defined the ideological labels of conservative/liberal. Perhaps the problem is the term itself as the post "partisan" label clearly leads us to think along the lines I've just rejected. What Obama is seeking to do is reach the voters that have been hoodwinked since the Reagan era into voting against their self interests by those "people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power". They have successfully exploited fear of "the poor, gays, women, and minorities and despair for nearly thirty years. Now we have an orator who seems to be able to reach through that armor of carefully crafted negativity and touch the part of people that recognizes the concept of fairness, justice and the golden rule.

The "base" of the traditional Republican party has traditionally been the moneyed interests that tried to install Romney as their tool of administration. The paid hate mongers lined up behind Romney yet failed totally to move over 70% of their voters in the desired direction.

The other parts of their "base" were acquired as a reaction to Civil rights legislation and the economic turmoil ensuing from loss of US control over world oil supply in the 1970s. Some of those truly are hate-filled souls that can never be reached. But it has been 44 years since the Civil Rights Act, and the generation that placed racism over all other considerations of self interest is gradually dying off. True, many of the younger generation has followed in their footsteps but to hold onto the numbers they need for control the "people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power have had to expand the range of people eligible to be hated to include "the poor, gays, and women".

However, the colossal ineptitude of the Bush administration has laid bare the truth of this malignant brotherhood for all its members to see. The co-opted are starting to wake up (ex: David Kuo) and recognize the cynical manipulation for what it has been. Look at the protest vote for Huckabee. It shows that nearly 50% are not timidly toeing the line they are being fed.

Does this mean that the "people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power" are going to experience an epiphany leading them to suddenly begin working for the betterment of all?

Not for an instant does Obama or this supporter believe that or make any such claim. If you actually listen you will hear him speaking to those who have been deluded into voting against their own interests through the manipulation I spoke of. As far as I can tell, he basically makes two claims:
1) The "people who are consumed by greed and a thirst for power" can be successfully opposed by reaching out to those who have been manipulated into pledging partisan loyalty that does not serve their interests, and
2) Even if they can be reached, the struggle to right our course is going to be extremely difficult.

There are still going to be those who base their political actions on hate.

There are still going to be those who fail to recognize they are being manipulated to act against their self interests.

But Howard Dean recognized the dissatisfaction that was building. He saw the disillusionment that was spreading like ripples from the center of the most corrupt power grab in this nation's history. In response and against great opposition from the DLC, he implemented
his 50 state strategy. Without that, I believe Obama would already be another also ran. Dean saw the changes in the electorate prepared Democrats to capitalize on those changes. Obama is simply the person best equipped to bring in the haarvest.

At least, that's how I interpret things.

[nam78_two]

46. K&R.nt

[Armstead]

47. Guilty, but with extenuating circumstances

I try to be reasonable. But it's hard when all attempts at reasonable discourse either sink like stones or are attacked as either "60's style leftism" or "right-wing talking points."

I've become an Obama supporter by default, because I feel -- as I have for at least a decade -- that the brand of Democrat represented by the Clintons is doing major damage to the country and the party by moving the center of gravity far to the right.

I think from my perspective, it's very frustrating to have devolved from believing in what Kucinich stands for to making a compromise (albeit a positive one) for John Ewdards to having to choose between two candidates who basically represent the status quo.

I think Obama does at least represent the beginning of a fresh start, and a more inclusive brand of politics. But I get snappy when enthusiasm is branded as "cultlike" and Obama is attacked for actually having charisma and generating hope among his supporters.

[shaniqua6392]

48. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

Truer words have never been spoken. I hope you are feeling better soon and good luck on your publication! Blessings and peace to you Mythsaje.

[Two Americas]

49. welcome back

Great post and welcome back. I hope that pinched nerve deal gets handled - sounds like a nightmare.

You said - "Frankly, I never caught fire from one of his speeches."

It seems that people either are, or are not, swept off their feet by Obama's speeches, and that this is the biggest factor in why people are enthusiastic about his candidacy or not. That seems to me to be a big gamble going into the general election. I agree with you about the tenor of the discourse here. If that carries into the general, it will be a problem. There is a "for us or against us" feel to the Obama partisanship, and many times I have seen people meet any hint of criticism about Obama with "you just don't get it" - in other words, a person must intuit the Obama magic, or they are a hopeless case to be written off. There is a good chance that the general public also will "just not get it" and they will resent being told that, as well.

[Neo-wobbly]

50. You speak to the heart of it...

...and yet I came up with a different answer; neither Clinton nor Obama will get my vote this year, because the damage they are doing to the party, and to the progressive movement in general, far outweighs whatever slight improvement either of them represent over McCain.

Better to lock down McCain with a dem congress and hope we get a serious contender in 2012.

[butterfly77]

53. Ok, Neocon...

[Neo-wobbly]

59. Hey!

No reason to get nasty :P

[lazyriver]

51. Among the wisest words I've seen here in quite some time.

I hope your pinched nerve is better.

[waiting for hope]

52. Glad you are back Mythsaje!

Hope you are feeling better - and kudos, excellent post! I don't have the heart anymore to come here, other than to scan the GP and visit the Edwards supporters group. K&R!

[xxqqqzme]

54. Thank you.

I have resigned myself to the garbage tossed out here. I come to DU these days primarily for LBN, then California forum and I move on. I scan other 'greatest' posts to see if anything catches my eye...today yours did. When the primary season is over, it will calm down here. It did it '04 anyway.

I remember some nastiness in the '04 primary directed @ Howard Dean supporters. We were called delusional & worse because we dared suggest the corporate media had a hand in destroying his candidacy. But that primary season was not as protracted. This one has been going on for over a year. I think the trash tossed here is a direct result of that protraction.

Like you, I supported Edwards, and for the same basic reason. Until we get clean money campaigns, nothing will change. Witness the telecom immunity in the senate. Was anyone really surprised? If they were paying attention - no!

I have learned one thing from this seemingly endless primary season. I am finished w/ presidential primaries. I have no voice and it is ridiculous to believe I do. My work begins and ends w/ local races. That is the foundation for everything else. Without a solid progressive foundation, there is no change at any level. From our city council emerges a progressive candidate to challenge our idiot incumbent publican. I am investing my money, time and heart in her campaign. The last 7+ years, w/ a concentrated focus on the last 2, demonstrates both the damage accomplished by the robot publicans and the disastrous results of a weak Democratic 'majority'. We have to have a progressive Democratic majority to restore the Constitution; end the occupation; enact single payer health care; repeal NCLF; resolve the impending energy crisis; and attend climate change. All that will not happen from the top, it starts at the base.

[footinmouth]

55. Thank you

I agree with your post. I can be happy with whomever ends up as our nominee. I cast my primary vote for Senator Clinton because I think she's more prepared to get the job done. I'm equally comfortable with Senator Obama.

I agree that it's been rather a cesspool here lately. I can hardly bear to read some of these threads.

[ColesCountyDem]

56. *Applause*

Well said!

:toast:

[midnight]

57. I have been lost since Edwards has suspended his race.

It has been very unhelpful understanding the issues via the fighing. I will be voting for the primary winner. So crappy to be in pain. I hope the pain pills are helping.

[DeeDeeNY]

58. You are totally right

I wasn't around for the '04 election, and some of what appears in GDP is kind of shocking and in many cases irrational. I attribute it to frustration and can only hope things will change after the convention.
Hope you're feeling better soon.
:kick:

[diane in sf]

60. I totally agree with you

[grace0418]

61. Believe me, there are more folks than you think staying above the fray. They just get ignored.

Or they get sick of it and ignore DU. It's hard to imagine how we'll be able to come together in November, but we have to, WE MUST. "President McCain" is simply unacceptible.

[yardwork]

62. I hope you're feeling better! You've been greatly missed.

I can't add anything to your OP except k&r.

[NanceGreggs]

63. Wecome home, Mythsaje!

You've been missed - A LOT!!!
:hi:

[Catchawave]

64. I'm glad to see that 87 (recs) of us agree with you :)

:kick:

[flying rabbit]

65. Heh. yeah...

What you said.:toast:

[mimitabby]

66. well said!

who needs freepers when we are scratching and kicking and biting each other here?!??!

[Blue_In_AK]

67. Nice to see you back, Mythsaje.

You always manage to say, so much better than I, everything I've been thinking. :thumbsup:

[Dave_Fl_50]

68. I joined becasue of a thought provoking post a

while back on an issue but have been too disgusted by I've seen since and haven't posted.

[Shine]

70. Welcome to DU, Dave!

:toast: trust me, we're not ALL crazy. :D

:hi:

[Beam Me Up]

71. Welcome Dave

I know it has been ugly. It hasn't always been like this here. This primary season has been particularly brutal and slimy. A sign of two things, I think: Manipulation of the political discourse via the media and a form of desperation. They could be related. In either case, we're being set up for another fake 'election' and possible McCain 'win', IMO.

Horrifying to watch.

[LiveLiberally]

69. Many Thanks!

As a relatively new member of DU, it is reassuring to know that the current partisan insanity isn't the norm. Who needs Repug trolls if we are so good at cannibalizing ourselves?

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[Shine]

72. Mythsaje: A Voice of Reason. I salute you, buddy. Well said.

:patriot: Nice to see you back! :hi:

[hay rick]

73. Pissing contests

I'm a newbie here, but an old hand on the internet and in discussion groups. Sorry, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. The site may be changing as it gets more popular and as it's relevance increases with the coming elections. I see a lot of pissing contest threads and I mostly skip over them- nothing to see here, keep moving folks...

I also see a lot of self-described old hands moaning about the tenor of so many of these threads. Two bits of unsolicited advice:

1. Toughen up. This is the internet, not a Quaker meeting. Complaining about the incivility is only going to encourage trolls, moles, and freepers. Also, when the nomination is wrapped up, a lot of the nonsense should disappear.

2. Post something substantive in your areas of interest and expertise. Put time and energy into setting a good example. Attract people away from the corporate Hillary/Obama cult discussions.

Hope your back/neck improves and thanks for a thoughtful post.

[Shae]

77. You are right hay rick ...

it isn't just here.
I recently went on Bartcop's site( Bartcop is a Hillary supporter) and thought I was on the "Barack Obama, Lying Nazi Whore" site.

I went from Kucinich to Edwards to oh-i-got-no-idea-who-to-vote-for-now. I was literally in the voting booth and still trying to make up my mind.
My mom (a Hillary supporter) and I email almost daily, and told her I voted for Obama on Tuesday, and I haven't heard back from her (co -incidence, I hope, but who knows?) Welcome to DU btw.

All the best to you Mythsaje. great post.

[Blue-Jay]

74. Synopsis, please?

[live love laugh]

75. "...mindless hatred that is staggering in its scope and breadth.." Well said.

You captured in this phrase what I have been thinking for a very long time. I, too, am disgusted by the discourse and have avoided 95% of it. Glad you are back and I hope your health improves.

[sueragingroz]

76. Good post... don't worry... things will settle down eventually

Folks are passionate about their choices right now.

Once a leader is chosen, folks will band together again and rally around the nominee whomever it is.

Right now folks are still trying to "sway the other side" to their personal choice.

It's human nature. Unfortunately, it hasn't been very pretty of late but I don't think that this will result in any permanent schisms...

I've witnessed too many board wars over the years to believe that.

I have been guilty of some very maudlin and in some cases sarcastic posts and I admit that I have a strong preference for a particular candidate. But I mean no disrespect to those who espouse a different view. I'd love to "wake them up" and change their minds, but I mean no overt disrespect.

[HughMoran]

78. Thanks for telling it like it is. I'll gladly give this post it's 100th recommendation

I am 110% in agreement with everything you have posted. I wish I could write so eloquently. I hope at least a few people take heed and lay their weapons down.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

79. Nicely done.

I haven't visited DU in a while and was shocked to see the vitriol.

Looks like Obama is going to be the Dem candidate - man, is he ever going to have a rude awakening when he takes office. Is he going to deport the Republicans? That's the only way he'll "change" the way stuff is done in DC.

[pnwmom]

80. You are representative of most of Edwards's long time supporters, I think.

(As opposed to those who drifted toward him when their preferred candidate got wiped out.)

I wonder what makes most of them above the vitriol that has been going on around here?

[Hekate]

81. I'm encouraged to see how many of us there are who agree with you. Welcome back....

....and thanks for the thoughtful articulate post. Get well soon!

Hekate

[Martin Eden]

82. I propose a new rule here at DU:

To participate in GD:P, everyone must first read this spot-on scolding by Mythsage.

[Synnical]

83. Nicely stated. Thanks.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[drmeow]

84. Standing ovation n/t

[spooky3]

85. What a pleasure to read a thought-provoking post

and to welcome you back.

[bluerum]

86. I am voting dem. Wish it was Edwards, but anything is better than McPain.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. Thank you, Mythsaje

Since Obama and Clinton were my last two choices, when I see the flame wars in GDP, I feel as if I'm watching two mobs of soccer hooligans from a foreign country. I don't really care which side wins, and the overwrought supporters of
both sides appear immature and boorish.

[varelse]

88. I missed you

I share your opinions but not your skill and eloquence in expressing them. thank you for this wonderful post :)

[emmadoggy]

89. Bravo, Mythsaje.

Excellent. :applause:

[autorank]

90. Welcome back.

I thought you were gone for a while. It's actually better than when you left.

We've figured out Edwards was a shill, HRC is on the ropes, and Obama expresses the will of the
people who want real change now because that's how they see him. He may or may not come through
but bye bye Edwards and neopopulism.

[Major Hogwash]

91. You just found out about Edwards? And you thought it was going to be better, how?

I have no idea why you want us to just lay down now and let Hillary have the reins to the party, kid.

Ain't going to happen in my lifetime.

[omega minimo]

92. Welcome to the Future

Just in time for the Two Minutes Hate



Change! We can believe in!




(Uh.... what?)

[AikidoSoul]

93. "If you like George W. Bush.... then you're going to LOVE John McCain"

That's what we should be saying instead of attacking each other.

[Samantha]

94. Welcome back to DU - this forum needs a DUMP

I have been here since 2001. I take elections very seriously. I was extremely disgruntled to find the abuse of this website had gotten so extensive, Skinner had to contain the abuse in this Primaries forum. I thought I would not be able to participate because of the disgusting nature of most of the threads.

After two days of withdrawal, I jumped back in because I am addicted to our electoral process, and this is the only forum here in which I can truly follow that process. I have become hardened to all the things about which you complain in your thread but that is how I endured. At this point, I am so glad I did because I feel I positively influenced two important issues. If I had not returned, I would have contributed NOTHING.

I tell you this so you will not leave. I agree with everything you have said but this forum should not be abandoned by those of us who believe in civil discourse so that those who do not overrun the discussion of the election process here. In that regard, I have begun to think if DU has "Latest" and "Greatest" pages, why not a "Dump?"

Posters could nominate threads in this forum for the "Dump." Five nominations for the "Dump" and the mods push the eject button on that thread. In that way, those who are here for the real thing have an option for dealing with the threads you describe and those who prefer the trash can sift through the "Dump" and be fulfilled. Of course, pranksters and tricksters being ever-present, serious threads could be nominated for the "Dump." That is why the mods would supervise that process and punish those pranksters and tricksters with warnings. Two warnings and they are out of here.

Do you think this might work? If not, do you have any other ideas?

Sam

PS I hope you are feeling much better now and thank you for this thread.

[Quantess]

97. For GD-P only, "dump".

And get a cute image to go with it.

Actually, I'm not sure it would work, because "dumping" would become a new pastime du jour for trolls. But, I do feel that keeping GD-P threads off the Greatest Page would be a really good improvement.

[calimary]

95. Hey! Glad you're back!

Good point, and it's crucial this year. CRUCIAL. United we stand and all that.

If nothing else, it's helpful to remember one overriding fact: the bad guys want nothing more than for us to be at each other's throats. That's exactly where they like us. Leaves them free to perpetrate whatever crimes and sins and violations and betrayals they damned well feel like perpetrating. If they want me to be snipping and sniping (aimed inward, that is), then that's exactly what I intend NOT to do. 'Cause whatever it is that they want - can't be good.

And thanks not only for posting this, but thanks everybody else who weighed in, too. I'm the 95th reply! Lots of talk about this, therefore, which is a very good thing. This topic should be UPPERMOST on everyone's mind.

[Lugnut]

96. Bravo!

:kick:

[ekwhite]

98. Thank You!

Mythsaje, you have articulated well the frustration I have been feeling in the past few weeks over the arguments between the fanatical supporters of Clinton and Obama. Both sides have gone way overboard, and have forgotten that we are talking about our fellow Democrats! Every Democratic candidate had his or her warts, even my favorite, John Edwards. Whether it's Obama or Clinton in the White House, the country will be better off than with President McCain.

[donheld]

99. .

:applause::applause::applause:

[BigBearJohn]

100. Your post was a salve for my aching bones. Welcome back! K/R!

[frogcycle]

101. roger that

:kick:

[prairierose]

102. Thanks for this very articulate thread...

I too have been spending less time here because I am just not interested in the stink that has taken over. I have been here for a couple of primary seasons but this is the worst I have seen so far.

I hope that you feel better soon. Take care of yourself, we need your clear, articulate voice. Hope the editing is going well.

[Zero Division]

103. Best post in GDP I've yet to read this primary season. Well done!

I just had to come out of lurk mode to acknowledge this thoughtful and articulate bit of sanity you've posted here amid all of the madness in GDP. I caucused for Edwards in Iowa, and I feel much the same way as you with regard to the Obama and Clinton candidacies.

I'm disappointed because I don't feel confident that either of the remaining candidates will take the political risks necessary to repair the damage that's been done by the Bush administration and the Republicans in Congress over these past 8 years, but I'm confident that a John McCain presidency would be a terrible alternative, especially on foreign policy--I don't think McCain would fear the political repercussions of instituting a draft in order to maintain the occupation of Iraq and invade Iran.

The biggest reason I have for leaning toward Obama is that I think he'll generate a positive down-ticket effect and that many Americans are so caught up in the Clinton hate-fest that a Clinton presidency would become a boon to the Republicans and a curse for the Democrats in Congress. But I can still respect those who support Clinton because they prefer her stated policy positions and political experiences.

Thank you for this excellent post!