Its the economy, folks

[OzarkDem]

Bush's geniuses announced again the economic outlook is "bleaker" than they "thought".

New York Times Feb. 15

Top Officials See Bleaker Outlook for the Economy

WASHINGTON — With the credit markets once again deteriorating, the nation’s two top economic policy makers acknowledged Thursday that the outlook for the economy had worsened, as both came under criticism for being overtaken by events and failing to act boldly enough.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/business/15econ.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

...

As it worsens and voters worries grow, they are less likely to put their faith in an untested candidate instead of one with experience and whose husband turned around the Bush I economy.

That's why Clinton is doing well in states like Ohio and PA and why her support will continue to grow.

The economy is also linked to massive spending in Iraq. Whoever takes over the WH has the dual job of getting us out of Iraq and pumping up the economy simultaneously. Also not a job for an inexperienced "delegater". We've had one of those for the last 8 years, thanks.

[HughBeaumont]

1. NAFTA destroyed Ohio and Hillary is a pro-free-trader AND pro-job-offshorer.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/538674.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/593175.cms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

This endorsement for Hillary surprises me. I cannot in all consciousness give my vote to someone who believed the worst president in history twice AND takes straight-outta-the-Cato-institute positions on an issue that is of utmost importance to me. One could logically make the case of Ohio being destroyed by bad free trade agreements such as NAFTA; I'm related to several workers in the Delphi and steel plants that got the shaft thanks to those agreements.

Now we have a candidate talking visa expansion and courting Indian offshoring conglomerates and business leaders? Free trade already killed blue collar professions in this state, so now we're well on our way to killing white collar jobs as well?

[UALRBSofL]

2. For the record progressives

are torn on free trade and NAFTA. In my opinion NAFTA allowed corporations to move to a country that hired cheap labor. That said, I don't see any way to bring them back. If your willing to work for $5/hr compared to $30/hr there is no incentive to move back to places with large labor unions. However, I believe if we forced large tariffs on these company's it might be an incentive to relocate back to the US.

[HughBeaumont]

3. I don't really see why they're torn.

I hardly think a progressive position to take would be one that sees workers here lose their livelihoods, morale and earning potential so other countries' poor can be raised to "just above broke" status.

Meanwhile, who benefits? Certainly not the auto worker who has to start his/her life over as a shelf stocker at the age of 48. Certainly not the IT worker or engineer who invested thousands of hours of their time and thousands of dollars only to enter a job market that's priced them out of the game already. Certainly not the health of America's long term economy, already on life support and ever closer to flatlining thanks to supply-side shenanigans.

The incentive to bring manufacturing back to these shores are for two simple reasons. One, America's long term economy and badly-in-need-of-repair infrastructure depends on it. The second reason is the fact that there are people who are just flat out not meant to GO to college. Much as this country doesn't want to think about it, not everyone in this country has the intelligence to go into the sectors you described. Some are meant for factories. Some are meant to work with their hands. These were the people that used to go directly from HS to the manufacturing and industrial sectors. Do we just say "sorry for your genetic shortcomings, better luck next life?" to these people? Those manufacturing jobs once brought those people without many white-collar prospects for whatever reason a decent living and benefits, and for usually a long time.

It's not a matter of just saying, "well damn it, why don't they get SMARTER??" If an economy is not able to accommodate people of ALL skill levels and brain power, then is that economic model really to be considered strong and effective? China's able to (albeit under slavery conditions and corporate exploitation). Why can't we? America doesn't need 130 million nanotechnologists, genetic engineers and small business owners. We need workers of all stripes. We need jobs for everyone, not more wealth for those not in need of it.

[maddiejoan]

4. Obama's record on Free Trade

is worse than Hillary's.

http://blog.noslaves.com/hillary-and-obama-on-trade

[HughBeaumont]

5. Yet, this thread really isn't about Obama, is it?

I read the article and don't see where he's either better or worse than Hillary on trade. They seem about the same.

Yet, I'll take him over the candidate who, you know, believed the worst president this country's ever had when it comes to occupations of choice. Twice.

[maddiejoan]

8. Then you didn't read the article

also --as this is in "primaries" and you are making a case that Hillary is bad on "Free Trade" my posting an informative article on both Obama and Hillary on Free Trade is very much in line with the thread.

[HughBeaumont]

10. Uh, yes I did. Don't tell me what I did or did not DO.

[maddiejoan]

11. Even though it's obvious?

[OzarkDem]

6. Economic problems are larger than NAFTA

They not only involve spending on the Iraq War, high energy prices, the subprime mortgage mess, tax policy, etc.

They require a leader who can quickly advance an agenda on several fronts simultaneously from foreign policy to defense policy to monetary policy to fiscal policy to energy policy. Its an incredibly difficult proposition for someone who is new to the job. The only administration in recent history to successfully accomplish that feat was Bill Clinton's.

Hillary's extensive policies for reviving the economy reflect that experience and skill. The economic mess is too important to not have an experienced team on the job.

[UALRBSofL]

7. Here's the question about lost jobs

Wouldn't forcing tariffs bring these corporations back, bring jobs back? In my opinion I think it would.

[HughBeaumont]

9. Experience in what? Getting the NAFTA/Free Trade snowball rolling?

Sweeping 41's high crimes under the rug? Depleting a sovereign nation via crippling sanctions? While the Clinton administration did have positives, it wasn't peaches and cream on a beach for everyone, especially blue collar workers in Ohio who had their jobs moved to Mexico and Asia. This is why I'm having a hard time buying the whole "It takes a Clinton to clean up a Bush" meme.

Hillary isn't Bill, nor does she have the economic climate that he did. We're not really suffering a knowledge deficit so much as we are a currency deficit to Asian nations. It always used to be that "more education will get us out of this mess". You cannot use that pitch now. I have a hard time finding her economic screed meaningful while at the same time pretending she never courted overseas business leaders and finds positives to trade and outsourcing. Just look around at any formerly thriving Ohio town, now rendered a flea market with a hulk of a closed (and energy-sucking) plant that used to employ people gainfully.

I cannot support someone who talks out of both sides of her mouth on this issue.

[OzarkDem]

12. Blame Bush for NAFTA failures and focus on the big picture

Part of Clinton's plan is to fix all trade agreements to protect US jobs, as well as a host of other well thought out proposals.

Its a big problem, one that requires experience and skill in monetary policy.

I'm sure her plan to help rural communities will also be a big sell in Ohio

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/pdf/hrcruralagenda.pdf

[OzarkDem]

13. kick