An analogy for those who don't understand discrimination

[theboss]

Suddenly, the Michigan and Florida primaries are morphing into this weird civil rights issue. They should not.

Here is my best explanation.

If I own a restaurant and refuse to serve blacks, I am breaking the law.
If I own a restaurant and refuse to serve everyone, I am not.

[Apollo11]

1. I also understand the concept of "collective punishment"

It is wrong to publish millions of Democratic voters because of decisions made by a small number of individuals.

That's why I would be in favor of doing the Florida and Michigan primaries over, maybe in May.

[maddiejoan]

2. Bad analogy

You don't own the restaurant.

[Maribelle]

4. It could be a good analogy if the op realized ...

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[XemaSab]

45. The DNC owns the restaurant

:shrug:

[Maribelle]

3. If you refused to serve everyone you would be out of business. Period. No questions.

And guess what is happening to the democratic party in the key swing state of florida?

[theboss]

5. That's fine.

But it's not a legal issue. It's a question of intelligence.

[weezy2736]

6. What would happen, then,

if the rules got reversed? I'd fancy it'd be a field day for the right, it isn't hard to spin it as an entire party flip-flopping. The DNC made a decision not to count those votes. For the candidate who's trying to run on backbone and experience, it seems like a very precarious position.

It's not a matter of wanting the votes to be heard or not, it's a way to steal delegates. These are the kinds of dirty tricks I see all to frequently in the Clinton Campaign. It's not that Obama is perfect, he isn't. It's more that he knows he isn't perfect where Hillary looks like she's right all the time.

And I don't really want a president who will investigate issues that didn't happen on their watch. As far as I'm concerned, Inauguration Day is the start of a new era in the United States. Reagan-Bush-(Clinton)-Bush had mostly the same feel of it (save the 8 years of Bill.) Remember how Ronald stole away the center of our party? Obama can steal away the center of their's while Hillary simply can not. If you need evidence for that, look around these forums a little bit.

[Maribelle]

8. Please, would you quit with the "steal" and "dirty tricks" fabrication and dishonesty.

No rules are going to be reversed regarding MI and FL delegates.

It will be entirely up to the credentials committee. Perhaps all you folks that love your "steal" and "dirty tricks" fabrication and dishonesty against our beloved Hillary, might want to educate yourselves regarding that committee, and what the DNC has expected to occur since the beginning of this fiasco.

[weezy2736]

11. No, I won't.

If I had been in Florida or Michigan, I wouldn't have taken the time out of my day to vote if I was being told that it was completely irrelevant. I have a hard time imagining that there aren't more like me.

If she was ahead like she should have been, she wouldn't be asking for the delegates this actively. The change in perspective is due completely to need, and I am not alright with that.

Also, I haven't said anywhere that I'm backing Barack, but it's plain as day that his upside to the country has the potential to be larger. Hillary would undoubtedly be better than Obama for the party.

[Maribelle]

16. But if you were in Florida, your Governor Crist would have told you how very important your vote was

And the supervisor of elections would have sent you a sample ballot in the mail, stressing how important it was for you to vote, showing you the issues on the ballot. If you went shopping before the primary you would have seen kiosks stressing how important your vote was.

And all of the above would have told you your vote will count.

And it would have. The State of Florida was responsible for counting votes, not Obama, not Kerry, and not the DNC. And they did. And in the archives of The State of Florida, the votes are recorded in history. It is recorded that Hillary Clinton received more democratic votes in Florida than any woman in history. It is recorded that Hillary clinton received more of the popular vote in Florida than any woman in history. And then you will be able to drill down and view County by County, the recorded history of the number of votes Hillary received.

Florida loves their first woman history maker!

[weezy2736]

22. I'm sorry, my verbage mistake.

I meant count, as in make a difference, not count as in 1,2,3. And I still wouldn't have gone to vote, just as I know some people didn't vote for the same reasons. Just because a Governor says it doesn't mean it's true. Usually, it's the exact opposite. If I had been subject to the bombardment of media as you described, I doubt I would have thought of it as anything more than an aesthetic maneuver.

If Hillary were to ask for a re-vote, she would gain so much more positive news, it's not that hard of a thing to do. Penn needs to get a grip.

[Clintonista2]

7. Terrible analogy

You're serving:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

You're not serving:

Florida
Michigan

[weezy2736]

9. He was also told not to by the head cheese.

So.... is Hillary not loyal to the DNC, incredibly desperate for delegates, or truely, honestly interested in Michigan and Florida's votes? It's easy to say the latter because we're Democrats, but I submit to you that not all of us are perfect (GASP!) and that Hillary isn't either (DOUBLE GASP!) It's not that Obama is, but I can't back somebody who uses dirty tactics so publicly.

[Maribelle]

10. As I said in a post above, you need to educate yourself regarding the credentials committee

Until you bother to educate yourself - - - dirty tricks thy name is Obama Supporters.

[weezy2736]

15. I don't really care about the Credentials Committe.

From what was said at the begging of this race, it's plain as day that it's an injustice to count the delegates as they stand. If the CredCom wants to reverse what's already been said, I will leave the party. I will still support most of the candidates, including Hillary or Obama, but I couldn't be a part of that flagrant flip flopping.

[Maribelle]

17. Whatever.

[weezy2736]

23. Substance!

And I really was begging to believe the Obama supporters were the ones throwing the stupidity mud around here.

[Clintonista2]

24. Wait wait wait, let me get this straight. "Hillary is not loyal to the DNC"

Yet, if the DNC decides to give the delegates back, you will leave the party? How ridiculously hypocritical of you.

[weezy2736]

26. How is that hypocritical?

The DNC makes a decision not to count delegates, Hillary, Edwards, and Obama all supported that decision. Obama starts winning states and Hillary decides that the need to be counted after all. If the DNC relents, it shows that there is a real preference towards Clinton, hence, I leave because it is undemocratic. Where is my hypocrisy at, exactly? How does Hillary justify her current position given her previous one (that was the heart of my "Hillary may not be loyal to the DNC" argument)?

[Clintonista2]

25. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of who tells you not to serve them.

[weezy2736]

29. True, but Michigan and Florida are the ones who moved their primary's against the DNC's wishes.

They are also the ones who declined to re vote. The party tried to get Michigan and Florida to matter, but Florida and Michigan made themselves irrelevant.

[goodhue]

12. What if you served bad food?

By bad I mean illegal, say human remains . . .

[theboss]

14. I don't like Jack in the Box

The analogy has now fallen apart, because that's just creepy.

[bunnies]

13. FL & MI chose to give up their delegates.

Period. Its like me saying "hey - if you stick your hand in that roaring fire youre going to get burned". And then someone sticks their hand in the fire and wants sympathy for getting burned. Hell. If you didnt want to get burned you shouldnt have stuck your hand in the fire.

They knew it would happen... they did it anyway. Too frigging bad.

[Maribelle]

18. Florida Democrats had no choice.

Please get your facts straight.

[crispini]

38. Florida Democrats submitted the bill to change the date.

Florida Democrats overwhelmingly voted for the bill to change the date.

Please get your facts straight. :hi:

[UALRBSofL]

19. OP if you want to talk discrimination

Let me know when partners can file tax's together, have insurance policy's together, adopt children. :)

[mondo joe]

20. Poor analogy. If you refuse to serve a protected class by simply placing them in some other

category you're still breaking the law. Like "Peole who live in that one part of town".

[theboss]

28. The class I created is "everyone"

Just like Florida voters.

[mondo joe]

30. Florida voters aren't everyone. They are one segment of "everyone".

[theboss]

32. In Florida, they are everyone

The problem in the Texas case that keeps getting cited is that the Democrats denied the right to vote to a segment of the population within Texas. The Democrats in this case just stopped everyone. (Actually, they didn't stop anyone. They just didn't acknowledge the votes).

Unless Floridians are a protected class, this goes nowhere.

[mondo joe]

34. But the nomination isn't restricted to Florida. If in your hypothetical restaurant,

you said you'd serve everyone except people who live in the SE neighborhood of your hypothetical city, your analogy might hold up.

[theboss]

36. The Florida Delegates are restricted to Florida

This is a state issue, not a federal issue.

[mondo joe]

37. The nomination is a national matter. Right or wrong certain segments of the national

party are restricted from participating.

[suston96]

21. Sorry, analogy doesn't work. Here is the Charter of the Democratic Party:

"The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate and include affirmative action programs toward that end, (ii) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the presidential nominating process, . . . (v) restrict participation to Democrats only . . . ." Democratic National Committee, Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States, Art. Two, 4 (emphasis added). <450 U.S. 107, 118>

Is there something about this part people don't get? "The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate- "

[zanne]

27. THE FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN LEGISLATORS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

THEY decided to break the rules. We should all be on the offense against THEM, not the DNC. The rules were already there, and Florida and Michigan broke them. They knew what they were doing was against the rules; it had been debated for months beforehand.

Florida and Michigan can't be rewarded for breaking the rules now that Hillary wants the delegates seated. That's the kind of thing the Bush administration would do. It would have applied to Obama, too, if he had left his name on the ballots. It's disingenuous now to claim that "people's votes aren't being counted". You should have spoken up BEFORE THEY BROKE THE RULES!

If people want the first in the nation state changed in the future, start fighting for it NOW. not after the fact. Do it the RIGHT WAY.

[suston96]

31. Wrong. The DNC broke their own rules - violated their own Charter......

...All elected delegates must be seated to avoid abridging the voting rights of members guaranteed by the Democratic Party Charter. There is nothing to change. The Charter already speaks to it:

"The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate...."

Something unclear about that?

[UALRBSofL]

33. I live in Florida so I hope y'all can give me credit for the way voters are feeling

We just want our vote counted. If it means a new primary that's fine. Let the candidates campaign, then, let us vote. There has been a dissension in florida over this. Also, the Florida chapter of the RNC has been taking advantage of the situation with pushing propaganda.

[suston96]

35. How many times in the history of this country have their been "reelections"? nt

All candidates were on the ballot, by their individual names, and the election had a huge turnout - for a primary - breaking records. The election was held and it must be recognized in accordance with the Democratic Party Charter. Allocate the delegates.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. Who was on the Ballot in Michigan?

All the candidates?

Fess up and stop spamming the boards with this horse crap.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

42. Just out of curiousity...

How many times do you plan to cut-and-paste part of one sentence out of context from the DNC Charter?

The election in both Michigan and Florida was fundamentally flawed, and only a caucus or a revote will ensure that voters will have their voices heard.

[suston96]

43. Curiosity? As many times as it takes when people keep starting threads with the same topic...

The elections were not flawed. The political hacks who trashed the peoples elections and their followers are the ones who are "flawed" ! Read the excerpt from that Democratic Party Charter. Out of context? Shall I post it again?

Here is the entire "context":

Section 4.
The National Convention shall be composed of delegates equally divided between men and
women. The delegates shall be chosen through processes which:

(a) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate and include
affirmative action programs toward that end,

(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who
participate in the Presidential nominating process. " Democratic National Committee, Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States, Art. Two, 4 (emphasis added). <450 U.S. 107, 118>

That comes from the Democratic Party Charter. Here is the entire "context": http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

44. Section B

(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who
participate in the Presidential nominating process.

So seating delegates from a primary election where only two of the (then) eight candidates were on the ballots would "fairly reflect the division of preferences?" Seating delegates from a state where no candidates were allowed to actually campaign would ensure "equal opportunity to participate?"

I suppose I wouldn't mind the spam quite so much if your argument was slightly less asinine.

[suston96]

47. Nonsense. The "uncommitted" delegates can vote for whomever they choose.

The "uncommitted" were those candidates John Conyers told African-Americans to select.

My "argument" is assinine? I am posting the exact quote from the Dempcratic Party Charter. You are saying the Democratic Party Charter is assinine?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

48. They're "uncommitted" because all the choices weren't on the ballot.

And no, I'm not saying the Democratic Party Charter is asinine.

Let me be very clear on this subject. You are asinine. Your argument is asinine. Your penchant for lifting quotes without regard to their context is asinine. And the fact that you can't spell asinine is both asinine and untintentionally hilarious.

Get the picture?

[TexasObserver]

49. You said "only a caucus or a revote will ensure that voters will have their voices heard."

And you are right.

It's a very simple concept. You can't race around the track before the race has been started, and then claim "I Won, give me the trophy!"

It's not a fair assessment of the voters' intent vis-a-vis the candidates if it's a meaningless beauty contest only one candidate campaigned for, and then claimed a bogus victory.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Voters deserve a second bite at the apple...

Their legislators, who created this whole mess, deserve to be horse-whipped.

[zanne]

46. You're just reading the rules that you want to read out of context. nt

[suston96]

50. I am just reading what out of context? I posted the link to the entire Charter...

....find something that says an entire electorate of a state can be ignored by the DNC !

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[crispini]

39. Your analogy doesn't make any sense.

:shrug:

[EffieBlack]

40. But if you own a restaurant and refuse to serve everyone

but it just so happens that your restaurant is the only restaurant available for blacks to get food while whites have many other choices, your refusal to "serve everyone," though race neutral on its face, could very well be a civil rights violation under the concept of disparate impact.

[rug]

52. What will you do with your analogy when your restaurant closes?