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Obama walloped Clinton in Virginia's Seven Cities/Tidewater (military families; outsized margins)

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:43 AM
Original message
Obama walloped Clinton in Virginia's Seven Cities/Tidewater (military families; outsized margins)
Edited on Fri Feb-15-08 11:16 AM by CorpGovActivist
https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/1_s.shtml">Here's the aggregate state-wide data for Virginia. State-wide, Obama carried just shy of 64% of the vote.

In the righthand column, https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/1_l_0F7516F1-5E07-40DC-97FF-2AE5BC5754B5_s.shtml">you can search by county/city. Counties are listed first, alphabetically. Independent cities are listed next, alphabetically.

Look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Cities_of_Hampton_Roads">Seven Cities of Hampton Roads voter breakouts, though.

The Seven Cities contain extremely high concentrations of military families, both active-duty, and retired. Look at the outsized margins of victory that those areas gave to Obama.

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_550_s.shtml">Chesapeake

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_650_s.shtml">Hampton

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_700_s.shtml">Newport News

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_710_s.shtml">Norfolk

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_740_s.shtml">Portsmouth

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_800_s.shtml">Suffolk

* https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_810_s.shtml">Virginia Beach

Mark Penn has no idea what the resonance of this outsized margin of victory phenomenon is going to be like in places like Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, or Lackland AFB in Texas.

Mark Penn is out of his depth, and has been all along.

- Dave

*********************************************************************

On Edit: I caught my first sight of the "big ships" in Norfolk when my uncle - a decorated Vietnam War hero, who was written up in Stars and Stripes for safely leading his unit through a minefield without losing a single man - took me along with his family for a visit when I was 8. We had put his family up for about two weeks during their cross-country vacation trip that summer, and he insisted that turnabout was fair play. Since I was old enough, my parents relented and agreed to let me make that leg of the trip with my uncle's family.

I was hooked. On the Tidewater area. On Virginia as a whole. On Williamsburg. On roller coasters and Busch Gardens. On men in white uniforms. When I ran out of film for my camera, my uncle taught me how to take a mental picture, and capture it on paper, later.

My uncle (the retired Sergeant Major) gave me more than a little guff, at first, when I chose the Navy instead of the Army; but when I explained that it was his own damn fault, he laughed and understood the role he'd played. Domino effect, indeed.

As for the likely resonance I think this will have in other key military installations: I'm basing that on my firsthand knowledge of those bases (a lot of my work is done for let-to-bid contract work on CONUS facilities), as well as my grandfather's time in the Army Air Corps, teaching fighter pilots how to fly in WW II. There really *is* a sense of camaraderie among these families.

And the Clintons haven't managed to tap into that. Nor have they made doing so a priority. Words. Deeds. Different. Really.
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my3boyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yup...military hates the Clintons....
I posted long ago that I did not think she would carry VA. I also posted how much my husband's co-workers (active duty navy) HATE Bill and Hillary. Many don't like all the cuts in defense Bill made when he was president.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Maybe they also hate the illegal occupation and her voting for it. nt
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Or the fact that she expects their families to do what hers won't. n/t
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I remember that, and I've been "yammering" about this for quite some time, too.
Maybe now, with real numbers to sort thru, a few skeptics will start to listen.

Thank you, your husband, and your other boyz for all the "little" sacrifices you've made in your lives and lifestyle. But don't expect too much sympathy from me. I know that the families who make it work for them, REALLY make it work for them.

I bet you have friends all over the world. Please count me as one, and you can bunk down with us anytime!

:hug:

- Dave
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. That is a fact..
... my brother, recently retired from the Navy, abhors Clinton, both Bill and HRC. Back in the 90s while still enlisted, he complained bitterly about the way the military was being downsized. His contention was not that some downsizing wasn't needed, but that the way they were going about it was 100% wrong. Sorry, I don't remember more details, but him and his exNavy wife HATE the Clintons, and that isn't going to change ever.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Ask him about BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) ...
... then sit back and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=clinton+brac">prepare to get an ear-full.

- Dave
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for putting this together, Dave. Rec'd. nt
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. My very distinct pleasure. I love the two Virginias, and if I can't offer up insights...
Edited on Fri Feb-15-08 11:48 AM by CorpGovActivist
... from here, I should just pack it in and call it a day.

:patriot:

- Dave

P.S. Have a fondness for the two Carolinas, too. Not to mention Kentucky, Tennessee, and Ohio. Just to stay on my kinfolk's welcome mat list.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Obama made a clean sweep
except for a couple of counties, interesting to see and compare, what will go on in Texas, if it last that long.
Best theater I have seen in a while.
My father was a fighter pilot, but in Air Force, WW11, switched to Army when Nixon was closing bases.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Even Roanoke (city) went for Obama, down in the SW toe of Virginia!
https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2008/67F01F96-1E82-472E-8051-CF1B1C3786A4/Unofficial/00_770_s.shtml">That's pretty significant, too, though it's not a military family concentration.

"interesting to see and compare, what will go on in Texas, if it last that long"

Eventually, she's got to consider the good of the party and the greater good of the country.

"Best theater I have seen in a while."

Loving every minute of it!

"My father was a fighter pilot, but in Air Force, WW11, switched to Army when Nixon was closing bases."

I wonder if he started as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Corps">Army Air Corps?

Wouldn't it be neat if we figured out that my grandfather taught your father?

:hug:

- Dave
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Looks like voter tun out has doubled, got to keep the momentum
going. Thanks for all your work.
Wouldn't it be neat if we figured out that my grandfather taught your father?

My Dad is no longer with us, but shared alot of stories, some very sad, from WW11, and with us returning to Germany a few years back, it got very emotional for me at times.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yup, the voter turnout numbers are just breathtaking this year.
"My Dad is no longer with us, but shared alot of stories, some very sad, from WW11, and with us returning to Germany a few years back, it got very emotional for me at times."

My grandfather passed, too. But there are plenty of ways to search the records. That would be so - well, cosmic, really - if it turned out that your dad took lessons from my grandfather. It would just hammer home the point that one of his guys made it home safely, to rejoin his family, too.

:hug:

- Dave
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. So very Cosmic
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. If you PM me a name...
... I can do the research this week.

: )

- Dave
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. Obama has received more military money than anyone other than Ron Paul
Figure that one out.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Source?
If true, I could probably proffer some first-cut theories to attempt to explain that.

- Dave
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Here, from an article from last year~
Military Donors Shift a Bit to Democrats

By Katharine Q. Seelye

There’s a new surge going on and it involves the military, but it’s not in Iraq. It’s in campaign contributions. And guess who more and more members of the military are giving their money to? Democrats.

That’s the gist of a fascinating new report by Capital Eye, a newsletter from the Center for Responsive Politics, which tracks money in politics.

In the 2002 election cycle, which is the last full period before the war began, members of the military gave 23 percent of their donations to Democrats, the report says. So far this year, they have given 40 percent of their donations to Democrats, both for Congress and president.

The top recipient among presidential candidates is Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, who began building his candidacy on his opposition to the war and has received about $27,000 from uniformed service members.

Among Republican candidates, Representative Ron Paul of Texas is the only one who opposes the war in Iraq and he is the top recipient of money from military members. He has received $19,250 so far.

more...

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/military-donors-shift-a-bit-to-democrats/
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Thanks, BabylonSister!
More data like this helps to draw up military-facility-specific fact sheets.

:hug:

- Dave
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Here you go
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Tremendous thanks!
That is extremely helpful for upcoming races in Ohio and Texas.

Best,

- Dave
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Please specifiy...
that he's getting donations from members of the military, as opposed to the MI complex.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Here you go
In the 4th quarter of 2007, individuals in the Army, Navy and Air Force made those branches of the armed services the No. 13, No. 18 and No. 21, contributing industries, respectively. War opponent Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, received the most from donors in the military, collecting at least $212,000 from them. Another war opponent, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, was second with about $94,000.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/military-donors.html
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's an extremely important distinction to make, indeed!
Whereas one candidate reaps coordinated, bundled campaign contributions from the Beltway Bandits' executives (which, of course, has *nothing* to do with their Federal contracts), the other is reaping spontaneous contributions from military families.

- Dave
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fits with a theory of mine, re what this election is really all about--
to the voters, and to Obama supporters in particular, vs. what the corporate news monopolies, and allied war profiteers, want you to believe it is about.

The election is PRIMARILY about the war--with the corollary issue of what the war has done to our economy. That's what it's about to the voters. That's what it's about in particular to Obama supporters--and what is causing this amazing surge of young people and others to his campaign.

But the war profiteers, and their corporate news monopolies DON'T WANT IT TO BE ABOUT THE WAR. They DO NOT WANT anyone to receive a mandate from the American people to end the war. They shape the issues and the debate, and tell us what election wins and losses MEAN. And the one thing that will NOT BE ALLOWED is for an insurgent candidacy to win BECAUSE OF THE WAR.

So they try to make it about women's rights vs. blacks' right, or about health care plans, or about Obama's name, or Hillary's boobs, or whatever crap they can make up, along with issues of substance that SEEM like reasonable things to focus on, but that are, in reality, dwarfed by peoples' opposition to this unjust war and occupation, and its monstrous burden on the economy.

The war is the overriding issue to Obama SUPPORTERS--who represent SEVENTY PERCENT of the American people and their overwhelming opposition to this war--and who have no other home in the political arena. Whether it is the overriding issue to Obama himself is anybody's guess. It's very hard to vet candidates, and understand who they really are, and predict what they will do in office, in this nutso, "Alice in Wonderland," delusionary corporate "news" depiction of our political life. You can't trust anybody's word. You can't trust anybody's background. You can't know who's bought and paid for--for certain. And we also have no idea of what the fascist plan is for the "trade secret" vote counting.

But one thing we know, and know for certain--and that is what Obama supporters WANT. They want an end to the war. Obama is the only candidate still standing who was against it from the beginning. In fact, he was the only candidate in the field, besides Kucinich, who opposed it early and publicly. (Edwards came to oppose it, after voting for it.) That is the major and critical difference between Clinton and Obama. And, yes, he has somewhat fudged his position--at the Democratic Convention in '04, for one thing--and in votes for war funding. But he is nevertheless IT for the SEVENTY PERCENT of the American people who oppose the war. He's IT for the military families who have taken the chief burden and impact of it--many of whom no doubt hate this war to the core of their beings. He is the anti-Iraq War voters' ONLY choice, at this point.

And this has been so completely smothered and black-holed by the corporate news monopolies that even *I* didn't get it until recently. I pride myself on being able to suss out corporate media bullshit games and their "news" black holes. Reading some Obama thread the other day at DU, it suddenly clicked in my mind, what was going on with media coverage of this campaign: the determination of the corporate news monopolies NOT to let it become about the war. And, given the overwhelming--unprecedented--70% antiwar majority in the country (which must be up in the 90%'s among grass roots Dems), THAT is where the Obama surge is coming from. It has to be. There is little other reason for it. According to some, Obama is even a bit to the right of Clinton on some public policy. He has charisma, and has inspired much enthusiasm among the young. That still does not explain this challenge. It is being mostly fueled by FRUSTRATED Americans, of every age and demographic, who are furious about the continuance of the war.

Our so-called Democratic Congress has a 22% approval rating--less than Bush! That, too, is about the war. And to those who are furious--much of the country--Obama is the ONLY candidate who isn't hogtied to the "military-industrial complex" that brought us this unnecessary, unjust, heinous war--or at least that's what he appears to be.

Like I said, we can't know for sure. I read his article in Foreign Policy magazine, and I was not much comforted by it. The only thing he's said that is different from all the other warmongering politicians is that we should TALK to our "enemies." That's something. It could be the key that unlocks a desperately needed treasure chest of peace initiatives. Or it could be just bullshit. If he gets (s)elected by Diebold and brethren, it's probably bullshit; and, if he doesn't, it's probably sincere. But the question of who he is, and what he would do in office, is quite apart from what the campaign is about to his SUPPORTERS.

We had a similar situation with Kerry in 04. He voted for the war--like a lot of Democrats did, some of them for corrupt (war profiteer) reasons, and some just hedging their bets, in a fearful time (Kerry, I think). But, IF all the votes had been counted, and he had entered the White House, he would have done so with a mandate to end the war! THAT is why people supported him, and put out such an incredible effort to elect him (--and succeeded, actually). He was the only alternative to Bush and more war; people believed that he would scale it down, manage it infinitely better, and eventually end it. And that is probably also why he could not be permitted to become President--not because he was a champion for peace, but because he would have been under terrific pressure from the voters and his supporters. Much better, from the war profiteer perspective, to have deaf, impervious, UNELECTED George Bush, who is not beholden to anyone but them.

Probably this comes as no revelation to Obama supporters. I really haven't paid much attention to the presidential campaign. I've devoted my energies to a more fundamental problem--the corruption and non-transparency of our voting system. (--also to some South American issues, where Donald Rumsfeld is planning Oil War II). So I was vulnerable to corporate brainwashing on this one--that the campaign was about Obama's name and Hillary's boobs, et al. Not anything of consequence. I realize now that that may be how it is portrayed, but that is not how it IS--not to the voters coming out of the woodwork to vote for this man, of which this military contingent, pointed to in the OP, is a fascinating component.

I don't think it's the issue of military spending. Why would military families have any reason to believe that Obama will spend MORE on the military than Clinton? There is simply no noticeable difference between them on this. They have BOTH voted for billions MORE for the war on Iraq, with a federal treasury that is essentially EMPTY. It COULD be an issue for military families, IF there was some perceivable difference.

I think it's the war itself--an unnecessary war--a war that makes no sense except as a corporate resource war--and a war that has no end, that is simply destroying military personnel and their families. They feel it most of all. They want it ENDED. They don't want any more indefinitely long tours in Iraq--a policy that is close to slavery. They want to defend the country; they don't want to defend Exxon Mobile! They want to do peace-keeping for just causes; they don't want to be treated like cannon fodder. And I am very glad that they are finally waking up to what's been done to them by the Bush Junta and by obviously collusive Democrats like Clinton. That bodes well for the future. It takes more than a president to reform a country. It takes the whole country--and, in our case, that includes the military, because it is such a big part of the country. It includes the young. It includes fed-up Republicans. It includes everybody. If Obama can activate the people in this way, that is the best hope for real change, which must come from the people.



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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's a very thorough examination of the issue...
... and I think a great deal of it is spot-on-the-money.

What I will find very revealing, this Sunday morning, is how much or how little time is spent discussing and analyzing the Potomac Primary's military family vote.

Because drawing attention to that would give a great deal of "air cover" to other anti-war voters.

- Dave
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Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Kick - very well thought out, deserving of its own post.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. .
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hillary has probably done more for military families than any of the
candidates except McCain. Her work on their behalf since coming to the Congress will stand for itsself. During the Clinton years, his administration fought hard to put the increases in funding where the military families were, including sizable raises in salaries. However, thanks to Rush and some others, the military has always been lied to about the Clintons and therefore, since a lie about the Clintons is easier to believe than the truth, they are turned against them.

"The power to label, is the power to manipulate." Never has it been more true than where the Clintons are concerned.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. So: 1. military families are ungrateful; 2. they're gullible?
Or maybe, just maybe, they're capable of figuring out who doesn't seem to be able to bring herself to acknowledge that she erred in her IWR vote?

- Dave
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I do think there is truth in this, jasmine621. During the Clinton presidency,
I had the strong impression that the military and their families were being well-treated (relative to other recent eras), that the services were being well-managed, that the money was being well-managed, and the Clinton policy was not to waste lives on aggressive or profligate military engagements, but only careful strategic use, with policy aimed at no casualties. Military budgets were smaller, but much more efficiently spent. I have very little direct experience with military personnel from the Clinton years to now (my experience is with earlier era militaries), so I may be wrong, and I do recall some news stories, from a decade or more ago (Clinton era?), about low level military personnel living in poverty (having to get food stamps, etc.). I'm talking about general overall impressions gained from a distance--of an efficient, fairly well-treated military, with none of this mindboggling corruption of the Bush Junta, including high-paid mercenaries operating outside the law--and our grubs taking the burden. These policies would, it seems to me, cause military personnel to way prefer a Clinton, Bill or Hillary, to a Bushite, whose policies toward military personnel are, to put it mildly, horrendous.

But I also recall that this smaller, more efficient, fairly well-treated military voted Republican, in the Clinton era. Was their desire for increased military spending the only reason why? Or was it cultural (Clinton was a Draft-dodger intellectual)?

In the present circumstance--after years of terrible abuse by the Bushites--you would think that military communities, in choosing between H. Clinton and Obama, would chose H. Clinton--because, thinking back, they can certainly NOW perceive that they were once well-treated by the Clintons, whereas Obama is also non-military, never served, AND is an unknown, who furthermore has people flocking to his cause because he opposed the Iraq War (which might translate to military types as "leftist"). Why are they choosing Obama?

One more crucial question: Who would they vote for in H. Clinton vs. McCain, and Obama vs. McCain matchups? How can they possibly believe that McCain would do better by them than Bush? McCain and Bush are identical on war policy. H. Clinton is similar to them, in current circumstances, but likely would never have initiated a war on Iraq, and would certainly bring the Clinton competence, efficiency and basic good government to the war and to the situation of military personnel NOW. If *I* were in the military, I would certainly prefer the Clinton competence to anyone even remotely like Bush (McCain--McCain of the endless war).

Re: Obama, perhaps I don't grasp how much the Iraq War has radicalized the military, as to their wanting change, progressive policy, decency, and no more unjust, endless wars for oil. So, because Clinton has supported Bush policy so strongly, they would vote for Obama over Clinton, but would they vote for McCain over Obama? And why?
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. CHCS II, alone, could help explain military families' disaffected stance toward HRC n/t
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. I know Repubs with military background that WILL vote Obama
but if it is HRC vs. McLame in the GE, they are going for JC.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yeah, I don't think HRC can credibly claim military family support in the GE n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. That's fascinating, 48percenter! Can you tell us why? Why do Repubs make
this distinction between Obama and Clinton? Is the war the defining issue for them? So, that, if the only major candidate left standing who was against the war is Obama, they'd vote for him, regardless of party, but if he got knocked out, then they would vote McCain on other issues?

I'm finding it hard to imagine what those issues might be. I mean, the Clintons are far better managers of the economy than this McCain/Bushite crowd, who cannot be described as "conservatives"--they are extreme radical spenders, without any accountability. I think of Republicans as, like, bankers. Busonomics is just nuts, from any point of view of financial responsibility. Of course bankers these days seem to be looters and brigands, just like the Bushites in the White House. But that doesn't bother them? Are they way rightwing, and they want all the money to go to military and police state spending, and none to anyone or anything else? They're not likely to get that with Obama.

So, what are their issues--that would cause them to vote for Obama and not Clinton?
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. BRAC, CHCS II, for starters n/t
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Sunday talk show line-up...
... listed http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=sunday+talk+shows&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn">here.

It will be very interesting to see how much time is spent discussing the military families vote.

- Dave
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
37. Latest Rasmussen Reports: Obama over McCain, McCain over Clinton
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. More polls bearing this out. n/t
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
39. Important point!
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. FrenchieCat, what's astounding is how many HRC supporters don't "get" why military families...
... don't curtsy in gratitude for "all" that Senator Clinton has done for them.

:eyes:

- Dave
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. They are evidently too concerned as to what Rove will throw Obama's way.....
Forgetting that what is in Rove's storeroom is Hillary material.

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. What's insulting to military families is the odious meme...
... that they are too stupid to understand which Democratic candidate left standing is going to work most in their families' self-interest.

Leaving aside the Rovish oppo research closets' relative or comparative dimensions, some HRC supporters are just downright insulting to military families, by suggesting that they're too stupid, or too ungrateful, to see that Senator Clinton has acted in their interests.

:grr:

- Dave
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. But, but, but.......
I thought that it was Hillary that the uneducated were voting for! :shrug:
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Ah, but FrenchieCat...
... it's an Ivory Tower misconception that military families are uneducated.

; )

- Dave
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. But it is Hillary supporters who believe that they are stupid......
goes with the territory of Underestimation!
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. That's a side effect of drinking Mark Penn's Kool-Aid, without the antidote handy, FrenchieCat.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
47. Rasmussen: Texas
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
48. Ohio: Rasmussen
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/ohio_democratic_presidential_primary

I'm guessing that Obama takes Ohio in the final analysis, with very heavy support in SE Ohio.

- Dave
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. I bet today's idiotic plagiarizing meme is playing *really* poorly in TX and OH military bases. n/t
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
50. Guarantee the military precincts in OH and TX bear out the trend next Tuesday. n/t
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
51. OH, RI, TX, VT - on deck
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
52. Obama will trounce Hillary in Ohio and Texas areas with large forward-deployed...
... force contingents.

- Dave
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texas_indy Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
53. Texas has a few major military bases which just might influence the vote, eh??
Edited on Thu Feb-21-08 03:26 AM by texas_indy
El Paso - Fort Bliss (where HRC had her rally with 12,000 - back in '96 Bill got 44,000)
San Antonio - Randolph AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Sam Houston
Kileen (between Austin and Waco)- Fort Hood

Many smaller installations are around the state as well.

GOBAMA! Bringing Texas to Obama!
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. My uncle retired at Ft. Bliss, and did much work at White Sands...
... my grandfather taught WW II pilots in the Army Air Corps at Kelly Field (now subsumed into Lackland, pretty much).

That's just the tip of the iceberg of my family's ties to the major installations in OH and TX.

And I have a plan.

; )

- Dave
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