Talk Ain't Cheap

[H2O Man]

"The Bureau expended much of its energy, it must be said, on singularly inane objectives – trying to stop King’s honorary degrees, the publication of his articles, his meeting with British leaders after he collected his Nobel Prize. The vendetta reached its climax on November 18, 1964, when the director, in a rare press conference, denounced King as ‘the most notorious liar in the country.’ King responded that Hoover must be ‘faltering’ under his burdens."
--Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.; Robert Kennedy and his times; page 280.

At a time when her campaign for the democratic party’s nomination for the presidency has begun to falter, Senator Hillary Clinton has begun to attack Barack Obama by saying, "Words are cheap." That would seem to fly in the face of the American experience.

The Founding Fathers recognized that words are not cheap. The first amendment in the Bill of Rights is proof of that: it addresses the need to have both free speech and a free press, in order to have a free nation. Words are not cheap.

Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Benjamin Franklin and the others who spoke about a new way of forming a more perfect union were risking their very lives. Their words were not cheap.

When great thinkers, such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau spoke about self-reliance and civil disobedience, their words were not cheap.

When Sojourner Truth addressed the Ohio Women’s Rights Conference, and when Elizabeth Cady Stanton spoke to the Legislature of the State of New York about Women’s Rights, their words were not cheap.

When Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass focused the nation’s attention on the evils of the institution of slavery, they knew they risked paying the ultimate price. Yet they dared to speak out at a time when the nation needed to hear the truth. Their words were not cheap.

When Langston Hughes spoke of rivers, and Woody Guthrie sang about land, each delivered a valuable message to the people of this nation.

Presidents from FDR to JFK delivered historical messages: their words were not cheap. Rebels like Tom Hayden, in his Port Huron Statement, and Muhammad Ali, in his refusal to be drafted, paid a price for their words. Their message was not cheap.

Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King were the conscience of our country. Their words remain a most powerful message and source of inspiration. Their words were not cheap.

In the quote about Hoover’s attempt to discredit Martin, we see what is actually "cheap": the organized actions that aim to deny not only a speaker the right to deliver a message, but also the desperate attempt to deny the public fair access to that message.

We have witnessed this same cheap type of action in every attempt to silence a journalist, or suppress publication of a book. The fear of ideas is cheap. This nation has been subjected to the closed-minded actions of those who fear ideas in every generation. There were those who did not want evolution taught in public schools; there are still those who want to force their prayers to be recited in today’s classrooms.

We also are too often subjected to the abuses of power and criminal activities of those politicians who think that words do not really matter. The president spoke the infamous "16 words" that the administration knew were not true, in his 2003 State of the Union speech. A dozen members of the administration took part in an organized operation to destroy Joseph Wilson for telling the truth about those 16 words. At least four purposely spread either confidential information or outright lies to 10 journalists, regarding Wilson’s wife.

Scooter Libby was charged and convicted for federal offenses that involved lying about words. The president decided that not only are words cheap, but that a federal jury’s decision is also cheap, and he interfered with justice by cutting Scooter’s sentence.

We have lived for too long under an administration that believes that words are cheap. We have felt betrayed too many times by politicians who play word games. But more, we have too long a history of recognizing that words matter ….. and we know that our Constitutional democracy is rooted in that Amendment 1 call for free speech, even though it is expensive, indeed.

Hoover told black Americans not to get their hopes up too high. His message was stark: there was not going to be much change if he could help it. What kind of person wants to deliver a message of "don’t get your hopes up"?

Barack Obama is communicating a living Hope to the people of this country. If Senator Clinton disagrees with the specifics of his message, then she should put her cards on the table. But let’s not try to dismiss him with "talk is cheap."

[grantcart]

1. k and r I don't think that we will be seeing much of the "talk is cheap line" in the future nt

[sloppyjoe25s]

55. Some more "Cheap Talk that Doesn't Matter"

"...to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction. We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed...So let us begin anew—remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us NEVER FEAR TO NEGOTIATE." - JFK


"Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free." And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved. All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin." - JFK

"Tonight, we gather to affirm the greatness of our Nation — not because of the height of our skyscrapers, or the power of our military, or the size of our economy. Our pride is based on a very simple premise, summed up in a declaration made over two hundred years ago: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'That is the true genius of America, a faith -- a faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles; that we can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm; that we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door; that we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe; that we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution, and that our votes will be counted" - Barack Obama

"If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
- Abraham Lincoln

"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge—and more." - JFK

"Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, and a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of non-believers. And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, who's Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would it be the Christianity of James Dobson or the Christianity of Al Sharpton?" - Barack Obama

"Ten days ago, President Reagan admitted that although some people in this country seemed to be doing well nowadays, others were unhappy, even worried, about themselves, their families, and their futures. The President said that he didn't understand that fear. He said, "Why, this country is a shining city on a hill." And the President is right. In many ways we are a shining city on a hill. But the hard truth is that not everyone is sharing in this city's splendor and glory. A shining city is perhaps all the President sees from the portico of the White House and the veranda of his ranch, where everyone seems to be doing well. But there's another city; there's another part to the shining the city; the part where some people can't pay their mortgages, and most young people can't afford one; where students can't afford the education they need, and middle-class parents watch the dreams they hold for their children evaporate." - Mario Mathew Cuomo

"We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy." - Martin Luther King

"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations." - Abraham Lincoln

"The pundits, the pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an "awesome God" in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and yes, we’ve got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America." - Barack Obama

"But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." - Abraham Lincoln

"We always knew that hope is not blind optimism. It's not ignoring the enormity of the tasks ahead or the roadblocks that stand in our path. It's not sitting on the sidelines or shirking from a fight. Hope is that thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us if we have the courage to reach for it and to work for it and to fight for it. Hope is what I saw in the eyes of the young woman in Cedar Rapids who works the night shift after a full day of college and still can't afford health care for a sister who's ill. A young woman who still believes that this country will give her the chance to live out her dreams. Hope is what I heard in the voice of the New Hampshire woman who told me that she hasn't been able to breathe since her nephew left for Iraq. Who still goes to bed each night praying for his safe return.

Hope is what led a band of colonists to rise up against an empire. What led the greatest of generations to free a continent and heal a nation. What led young women and young men to sit at lunch counters and brave fire hoses and march through Selma and Montgomery for freedom's cause.Hope -- hope is what led me here today. With a father from Kenya, a mother from Kansas and a story that could only happen in the United States of America.Hope is the bedrock of this nation. The belief that our destiny will not be written for us, but by us, by all those men and women who are not content to settle for the world as it is, who have the courage to remake the world as it should be." - Barack Obama

[antigop]

2. Did Mark Penn make the recommendation to use those words?n/t

[H2O Man]

6. It sounds like

a Penn message. I wish that she had not associated her campaign with him.

[antigop]

7. Josh Marshall at TPM website on Penn....

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

You've seen my continuous barbs at Mark Penn, Clinton's 'chief strategist'. The last couple days have shown very clearly I think that Clinton could do nothing better for her campaign than to throttle this clown and let her get down to the business of making a case to voters for her candidacy. Perhaps good spin is an oxymoron, moral if not linguistic. But good spin is clever and forward-leaning pitches of actual realities, facts. The word in the sense we use it today actually came into being in the early 90s and to a great degree around the '92 Clinton campaign, which had such mastery in its practice. But this Clinton campaign has been doing it in a weird parody mode. Not sharp 'spins' on favorable realities, but aggressive pitches of complete nonsense. So now you have Penn successively saying caucus wins don't really count, small state wins don't really count, medium state wins don't really count, states with large African-American populations don't really count, all building up to yesterday's gem: "Could we possibly have a nominee who hasn't won any of the significant states -- outside of Illinois? That raises some serious questions about Sen. Obama."

Clinton is ultimately responsible for putting her political fate in this fool's hands. But this is a guy who has basically one big political win under his belt and whose record in seriously contested races, particularly Democratic primary races is one of almost constant defeats. Much of Clinton's current predicament stems from Penn's disastrous, glass-jaw 'inevitability' strategy and the mind-boggling decision not even to contest a slew of states where Obama racked up huge victories and many delegates.

[Usrename]

57. Josh comes up with the phrase of the month...

..."the cocoon of political ridiculousness"...ya gotta love that one!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4601258&mesg_id=4601258

[Me.]

3. No Virtue Safe From Destruction Any More

Some words are cheap, like McCain's flip flop on torture, or Penn taking Obama to task for his association with a nuke plant all the while Penn is being paid by the same plant. Some words are cheap but the truth never is.

[mopinko]

5. what me said. nt

[goodhue]

4. yes, indeed

excellent post

[H2O Man]

17. Thank you.

We have a history of recognizing the value of words in the democratic party.

[Stephanie]

8. Speeches Do Matter

:hi:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-seitzman/speeches-do-matter_b_86745.html

Michael Seitzman
Speeches Do Matter
Posted February 14, 2008 | 06:18 PM (EST)

---snip---

Where would we be without Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech? Is there a single piece of oratory that defined a moment more than that speech did for the civil rights movement? That speech is a cry for freedom and equality that changed the world. Yes, the marches and the political wrangling with various presidents (yes, including Johnson) mattered. But, it was that speech which encapsulated the simple humanity that was at stake. That speech galvanized a movement, electrified a nation, and embarrassed a government into action.

What about Robert Kennedy's, "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

Or JFK's, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Churchill's, "Never in the history of mankind have so many owed so much to so few."

Roosevelt's, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Lincoln's, "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it."

And, now we have Senator Clinton's, "Talk is cheap." Boy, she really knows how to move a nation.

[H2O Man]

18. Very good!

Thank you.

And keep up the good work!

[kid a]

9. love, love, love your post and the ref to langston hughes "rivers" THANKS

THE NEGRO SPEAKS OF RIVERS
By Langston Hughes

I've known rivers:
I've known rivers ancient as the world and older than the flow
of human blood in human veins.

My soul has grown deep like the rivers.

I bathed in the Euphrates when dawns were young.
I built my hut near the Congo and it lulled me to sleep.

I looked upon the Nile and raised the pyramids above it.
I heard the singing of the Mississippi when Abe Lincoln went
down to New Orleans, and I've seen its muddy bosom turn
all golden in the sunset.

I've known rivers:
Ancient, dusky rivers.

My soul has grown deep like the rivers.

1922

[H2O Man]

19. It is a great poem.

Words matter.

[Whisp]

73. !!!thanks you so much for posting that!!!!!

I have been looking for it for some time now.

I heard it first in a movie called The River Niger, with James Earl Jones (he makes such a superb delivery of it). It moved me so deeply, such beautiful strong words - but I had no luck in finding it on the net. Now I have a title.

thankyou thankyou thankyou

one of the most beautiful things I have ever read/heard.

[DS1]

10. I have a dream! - < Cheap. Spoken in an area that doesn't count.

What a nasty piece of work she can be.

[H2O Man]

21. It isn't a good tactic

for her.

[babylonsister]

11. Bravo, H20 Man, Rec'd, and thanks! nt

[H2O Man]

22. Thank you! n/t

[Kurovski]

12. K&R.

In reality, and on one level, it's all "talk" until they get into office to prove themselves.

But some speech has more power than others. Obama hit on what people are feeling, and what they feel they need. He is appealing to basic humanity and decency. That's something that's been missing for decades in politics. He has inspired on a level we haven't seen in some time.

People are hurting, and for good or ill, Obama makes it feel better. If Obama were a fascist, BushCo would do well to count him among there ranks. But who really believes this to be true? He would do great good with Americans behind him. If people feel he is too "weak" or just not tough enough, Americans will simply have to rise to his defense and join the fight should he become president.

As my neighbor who has lived it says: "he reminds me of JFK." It's not just campaign talk. People are experiencing that for themselves.

He can inspire, and if people are behind him, and remain supportive, he may yet achieve a great deal should he get the office. People do listen to what he says.

I supported Edwards because I read more detail in his policies, and felt he was capable of maintaining focus and "fight" due to his experience in the courts.

I think the "all-talk" criticism comes for the very reason that he is such a breathtaking speaker. It's not as though there are no policies.

Like I say, for good or ill, people need an inspiring leader at this demoralizing point in our history. It's been a nasty 27 years. Really astonishingly horrid.

Edit: to change a number.

[H2O Man]

26. One of the interesting

things about the Grand Council of the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy, is that each of the chiefs maintains their own name and identity, but they also have a name associated with their position. The best-known example is that of the Tadodaho -- or the "chief among chiefs." The person who has that position maintains his identity, but he also takes the role of Tadodaho.

Years ago, in an interview I did with a well-known anthropologist, who had testified in some important legal cases involving "Indian" issues, we talked about how the current chiefs had were so close in personality, and in where they stood on the issues of the day, as the chiefs from 1776. This is human nature, not something unique with the Iroquois. It is, though, something the Iroquois seem to have a better grasp of -- perhaps the concept of "time" as a cycle, rather than as a straight line -- and hence the idea of Barack Obama taking parts of the image of a JFK, RFK, or MLK is not offensive to modern cultures's older siblings.

We are at a point in the cycle where we need that type of person running for president.

[blondie58]

45. H2O man- I love your references to the Indian way

wisdom never loses its relevance. And yes, words are never cheap. What Obama offers is hope and he could be the catalyst for change at this time. Thank you.

[Bread and Circus]

13. We are a nation founded on laws and letters, words are not cheap....

they are the foundation of democracy itself.

[H2O Man]

31. Right.

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are "words." They are not cheap.

[silverweb]

14. Indeed.

The total and offensive ignorance of that line belies any understanding of history.

[H2O Man]

32. I agree.

I heard it, and found myself thinking that even if one is tired and frustrated, that isn't the type of thing that should be said. Strange for someone calling for more debates.

[silverweb]

38. That's the truth!

"Strange for someone calling for more debates."

What are debates, after all?
Maybe someone should point that out to her, huh? :rofl:

[kid a]

15. kick for words

[sybylla]

16. Thank you for saying this so well.

This is a nation founded on words. The pen has always been mightier than the sword.

[H2O Man]

33. Always has been,

always will be.

[snappyturtle]

20. You are so right about King and the FBI. My father was an SAC,

Special Agent in Charge, of a FBI office during these times. It was in 1964 he retired "early"....Dad was troubled by the Bureau. I vaguely remember discussions about MLK...wish I had been more politically astute at the time. I was 17 so I should have been but that, unfortunately, wasn't the case and my father has passed away.

This "talk is cheap" is another identity for Sen.Clinton...one of how many now? It is also an act of desperation and experimentation to see which term sticks and resonates with the public. Too bad she can't or won't read your superlative essay here on "talk is cheap"! Obviously, her choice, once again, is a poor one.

edit...punctuation and spelling

[H2O Man]

41. Some of the

most important information that Mark Lane and Dick Gregory came up with was provided by retired FBI members. The problems that those who questioned Hoover experienced are legendary. Those who were not invested in the "King is a dangerous communist" delusion paid a price.

[snappyturtle]

67. Yes, they did pay a price. n/t

[CatWoman]

23. your fans are looking for you

:hi:

:loveya:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2873034

[H2O Man]

25. Wow.

That was nice. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[CatWoman]

27. no problemo

Now I'm going to watch a movie. It's cheesy 50's sci fi night at CatWoman's House tonite :)

A :kick: before I go

:hi:

[H2O Man]

28. Friday Night Fights (ESPN)

Boxing in this house tonight!

[Tatiana]

24. This "talk is cheap" meme has got to be one of the LAMEST I have ever use heard in politics.

I mean, seriously. This has got to be one of the DUMBEST slogans/comebacks I have ever heard.

When Hillary said that, did it not enter her imagination that those hearing her words might reflect upon some of the greatest speeches they had heard (MLK, JFK, even the "Great Communicator" Ronald Reagan) and come to the opposite conclusion: that words DO matter? That great words precede great actions?

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request -- that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course -- both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.

Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.

Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah -- to "undo the heavy burdens...and let the oppressed go free."

And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.

In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe.

Now the trumpet summons us again -- not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need -- not as a call to battle, though embattled we are -- but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation" -- a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.

Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it -- and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

[H2O Man]

42. It comes across as bitter.

And there have been other examples of bitter politicians, who are jealous of gifted people's ability to communicate. Nixon was bitter and jealous when it came to his comparison to JFK.

[stillcool]

29. "words are the only things that last forever."

--- William Hazlitt

Words, when well chosen, have so great a force in them that a description often gives us more lively ideas than the sight of things themselves.
- Joseph Addison

Words are the voice of the heart.
- Confucius

By words the mind is winged.
- Aristophanes

Words are things; and a small drop of ink,
Falling like dew upon a thought, produces
That which makes thousands, perhaps millions, think.
- Lord Byron (George Gordon Noel Byron)

Words are the soul's ambassadors, who go
Abroad upon her errands to and fro.
- James Howell (Howel), Of Words

It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. . . . Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.
- William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton,
in a deposition during the Paula Jones/Monica Lewinsky matter

Words are also actions, and actions are a kind of words.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[H2O Man]

43. Very good.

Thank you.

[omega minimo]

30. point taken. just one thing........

"Barack Obama is communicating a living Hope to the people of this country. If Senator Clinton disagrees with the specifics of his message, then she should put her cards on the table. But let’s not try to dismiss him with "talk is cheap." "


There are many of us who don't hear any "specifics of his message" and wonder if the wild enthusiasm is mainly just feel-good emotion, with not much info or "specifics" filtering through at all.

[H2O Man]

46. I've read a number of people

saying much the same thing. And when I've seen Obama supporters provide links to one resource or another, some of those asking the questions have rejected the links out of hand. However, as someone who would not endorse or support any candidate for president without being familiar with their positions, I know that they are there.

My answer is not going to be a link to one site, or a quote from another. Instead, I will say that democracy is not simply a right ..... but is also a responsibility. And so I think that every person who is taking a position, or planning to vote for either candidate, or who is contributing $5 or $500 to a campaign, has the responsibility to put the energy and work into making their decision that the great documents of our nation's history -- the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, etc -- call for. Every person has the duty to be engaged in the process, rather than being a passive spectator.

The answers are out there. They exist. They are there for anyone who is sincere in their search. I can easily find solid information about what stances Clinton and Obama take on important issues. Neither of the two would be the person I would most want for president; however, I can make a good case for either being president, and they are our two democratic choices.

[omega minimo]

68. so far so good

thank you for presenting the standard response to the cliched approach without pressing it on this particular poster (unless you are as subtle and smooth as Obama and I don't know when I've been dissed :evilgrin: )

I get the concept. I also don't find Obama's rhetoric, style or persona that extraordinary. And he doesn't say much. At all. That's description, not criticism.

The point is that SOME specifics need to filter through what he says; his supporters and campaign tablers need to be able to SAY SOMETHING beside "read his book" or "go to his website."

The brouhaha over the "Reagan trajectory" is a good example of how he is able to say something ambiguous and OPEN TO INTERPRETATION that generates a lot of passion and spin, folks and radio stars talking about what he REALLY meant (and so ABSOLUTELY sure that THEY know what he really meant...) -- only no one ends up talking about what he actually SAID.

I'm curious, not closeminded. However, so far the Obamania doesn't seem to have much there, there.

At this point, maybe all we have is platitudes and wishful thinking. Folks wanna feel good, not connect the dots. So no, I won't be insulted that I haven't put enough thought into the process.

[H2O Man]

79. I think the old example

of the face in the tree from Weekly Readers comes in to play with Senator Obama. Many good, intelligent, and sincere people watch him and do not see "it." Other equally good, intelligent and sincere people watch him and absolutely see "it."

It does not mean that one group is better, and/or the other is worse. We just see things very differently.

It is not a case where I am interested in trying to "help" others -- even my friends -- to see, or to decide one way or the other. For that would mean that they based their decisions upon external factors -- rather than from having that decision made internally. And that, of course, is something distinct from what democracy implies or really demands.

[AtomicKitten]

34. He has plenty of policy for the wonks on his website, and he's starting

to incorporate more dry wonk in some speeches, but the passion he is stirring in people to reclaim democracy is empowering in a way I never imagined possible in America. It's really quite breathtaking and in my opinion the tonic required after the last two decades of war and lies and corruption and the melding of the two parties into the Money Party (nod to autorank ;) ). Yep, Barack Obama is looking like a winner, a winner it appears not even the Clintons can knock down, though I have no doubt they will give it their very best shot.

[H2O Man]

47. Right.

I think that Senator Obama will focus on the differences between Senator Clinton and himself in Ohio, for example. The thousands of families who have been hurt by the loss of jobs are going to hear Obama point out that their pain and suffering is not a result of the Bush administration alone. If Senator Clinton wants to be credited for her years as First Lady, then an in-depth study of the economic factors that have destroyed so much of the way of life in Ohio favors Senator Obama.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

35. Using such luminaries

as MLK, Langston, Woody, Sojourner, Patrick, Frederick et al in a pro-Obama thread might cause some to conflate.

"Hopefully" they will not as that would be an insult to their legacies.

Obama is a company man and Hillary is a company woman.

Most of those that are named in your OP fought against that for much of their lives.

What makes you think Obama is not going to betray that which you may "hope" for? What details and specific policy positions do you cite to back this "belief"- and that's all it is.

Beware of false hope.

[H2O Man]

48. The chances of

having a realistic choice in the presidential primaries and/or election who is not a politician seem remote, indeed.

Of the four politicians still in the running, each has a basic message:

(1) McCain: War in Iraq for another 100 years, and more wars in the near future.

(2) Huckleberry: It's easier to change the Constitution than the bible; let's have the Old Testicle be the source of our law.

(3) Clinton: No, we can't; don't get your hopes up.

(4) Obama: Yes, we can; together.

I trust that Obama is sincere in his plans to do what he says he will try to do. That is rare among presidential candidates -- the idea of someone who would attempt to be honest in that way declined in the late 1960s, and I do not think there has been as honest a candidate as Obama in the last 36 years.

Can he accomplish much? That depends entirely upon how engaged and invested the American people are in attempting to repair the damage that has been done to our Constitutional democracy in those last 36 years. If people expect a mighty figure that is a projection of the masses to do it for them, then we will continue on the same path that we have been on since 1972. If people recognize that the fate of our nation lies in their hands, I believe that we have a fighting chance.

[sandnsea]

36. Thank you

I think "talk is cheap" might be worse than her false hope nonsense. What's even worse is that she doesn't even have a record to stand on anyway.

[H2O Man]

54. It has to be

the weakest position taken by any candidate during this primary.

[ellisonz]

37. The pen is mightier than the sword.

[H2O Man]

58. True.

It is, indeed.

[LulaMay]

39. The talk has to be real. After I saw his interview slamming the 60's & 70's....

and praising Reagan (which he DID) I came to feel he is not genuine, not a true liberal. He said in that interview that he did 'not come of age during the 60's, and was not so invested in the causes of that era', like CIVIL RIGHTS?! He is a speech maker, but who is he really? He is not for universal health care, he is not for a moratorium on foreclosures. He speaks against mandates like a conservative. He certainly is not like FDR speaking about Social Security. He makes ridiculous remarks without his speech writers, which is why he is avoiding more debates. He recently said that mandates aren't the solution, for anything apparently, and likened it to forcing people who don't own a home to buy one. Huh?

I want a person who uses their own words, and has strong philosophical beliefs demonstrated by action. He does not live up to the test.

[TexasObserver]

40. Talk isn't cheap at Campaign Hillary, because it has valet parking.

She's rented out more space on her chassis than a NASCAR racer, and to worse interests. Her talk is every expensive, and mostly paid for by people who will vote overwhelmingly for Republicans in the fall.

[H2O Man]

63. Interesting point.

Well said.

[dcindian]

44. Talk is so important it is in the first amendment

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This is the basis of America. The exchange of ideas in a free society. As your outstanding post has shown, that freedom is the freedom feared most by those who wish to rule this country without question.

I would bet that this is one of the top reasons why people of this country join the Democratic party. It is in the Democratic Party's embrace of and belief in the freedom of speech that encourages the big tent. It is why gays, poor, women, minorities, and so many others find voice here.

Many Americans and other so called "cheap" talkers around the world have paid for their visionary with their lives. If Mrs. Clinton cannot see past her incestuous campaign style toward the openness that is the Democratic party and the basis of Democracy itself then there is little hope for an honest discussion with her presidency and the American people.

[H2O Man]

64. Exactly.

There seem to be two choices:

(1) The Founding Fathers recognized that talk isn't cheap, and plasced Amendment #1 in the Bill of Rights for exactly that reason;
or

(2) The Founding Fathers had a silly sense of humor, and put Amendment #1 in for a historic giggle.

[The Wizard]

49. If speech is free

that's less than cheap.
Maybe we should rely on body language and telepathy.

[rosesaylavee]

50. K & R

Late to the thread on this one but can kick it up for the Saturday am crowd.

Having watched Obama for the past several years, as I am fortunate to have him as my senator, I do think he is sincere in his desire to move this country forward out of its current difficulties. I like that he is including the people in this equation and speaks volumes about his background in community organization. I think with him we have a much better chance of having a transparent government that with Senator Clinton. That sense of his overall integrity and knowing he is not fronting for the DLC is why I chose him in my primary.

Thank you for another juicy thread to read. :)

[beezlebum]

51. K&R

beautiful.

[ecdab]

52. The ability to communicate

is essential to bringing people together. It is essential to any effort to inspire people to action. It is essential to changing abstract ideas into concrete reality.

Communication is certainly not the only ability that a President needs, but it is certainly an ability that a President needs. There is no question that Obama can communicate at a very high level - that is a plus for him when the candidates are measured objectively (though it should be noted that HRC is not such a bad communicator either, but she isn't in the same league as Obama).

Talk can be cheap, but masterful communication is not - it is priceless, and the HRC camp is start enough and experienced enough to know that. This line of attack from the HRC camp is just politics as normal. When this country is looking to embrace change, politics as normal may not be such a great electoral tactic for HRC.

[H2O Man]

53. Right.

It seems unlikely that historians in the future will look at George W. Bush and say, "At a time of great trouble, he led the country with his inability to communicate." The idea that communication skills are a short-coming seems a bit odd.

[omega minimo]

70. the idea that being so good at "communication skills"

without saying much of anything seems even odder. :yoiks:

[jaybeat]

56. How can anyone compare Obama's "talk" to these?

Revolutionaries?

Those who fought and died for *real*, RADICAL change?

FDR? Langston Hughes? Woody Guthrie? FDR? JFK? Tom Hayden?

What, WHAT had Barack Obama said, EVER, that compares to the magnitude of change called for by these people?

As a rhetorician, as someone who can inspire, I can see the comparison to JFK, but also to Ronald Reagan. But to radicals who were a THREAT to the status quo?

Please, show me how you see this.

[dcindian]

59. Maybe you can explain to folks...

Like these people why their speech is any less relevant any less punished.

Brian Terrell
Cindy Sheehan
Jonas Phillips
Elaine Brower
Joe Wilson
Steve Howards
and thousands of others.


Maybe you and Hillary can tell us who's speech is just mere words not good enough or too "cheap" to count.

[jaybeat]

61. Nobody's talk is "cheap"

Certainly not those you listed.

But it does strike me that their talk, and the talk of those listed in the OP, has quite a bit more gravitas than the talk of Barack Obama.

Do you disagree?

[usregimechange]

60. kick!

[usregimechange]

62. kick!

[intaglio]

65. More cheap words

"When I warned that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet: 'In three weeks, England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.

"Some chicken....Some neck!

Churchill; Canadian Parliament, Ottawa, 30 December 1941

=================================

The mood of Britain is wisely and rightly averse from every form of shallow or premature exultation. This is no time for boasts or glowing prophecies, but there is this—a year ago our position looked forlorn, and well nigh desperate, to all eyes but our own. Today we may say aloud before an awe-struck world, 'We are still masters of our fate. We still are captain of our souls.'

Churchill: House of Commons, 9 September 1941

=================================

Change is inevitable. Change is constant.

A precedent embalms a principle.

Almost everything that is great has been done by youth.

A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy

all Disraeli

=================================

Four specters haunt the Poor: Old Age, Accident, Sickness and Unemployment. We are going to exorcise them. We are going to drive hunger from the hearth. We mean to banish the workhouse from the horizon of every workman in the land.”

David Lloyd George

[Tennessee Gal]

66. Your post is offensive.

The words of our founding fathers and greatest historical leaders are not comparable to the words spoken by any current candidate.

[ecdab]

69. You find it offensive for somebody to point out

the power that words can have? May I ask why?

Is the point of your post that all words are cheap unless they were spoken by our founding fathers or the greatest historical leaders? Are you saying that those that inspire people with words now and in the future should just shut-up? That's a fairly offensive idea and I hope that isn't what you are trying to get at.

Words can have power. Inspiration can have power. These are truths. There should be no offense taken or given by pointing this out. Nor should offense be taken when historical figures are used as evidence of this truth. What do you expect people to say that understand these truths? Do you expect them to say that words can not have power, that inspiration is meaningless, that hope has never achieved anything, that talk is cheap?

[omega minimo]

71. wow! you could carry that conversation on with yourself!!

[ecdab]

77. Sorry for not posting the normal

one liner pieces of fluff that populate this board. I'll try harder in the future - deal?

[Me.]

76. That's A Very Strong Response

To a simply stated opinion. I love the fact that people are so passionate about their candidates this time round but I am amazed at the hyperbole it sometimes engenders.

[Zynx]

72. I can post at least as many historical examples of words being cheap

and many of them are in the last 8 years. I could just as easily compared Obama to Bush, Reagan, and Nixon as you can compare him to FDR and JFK. I happen to think Obama is no Bush, Reagan, or Nixon, but I could easily make the comparisons.

[H2O Man]

78. As could I.

"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
- George W. Bush

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
- George W. Bush

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that one word is 'to be prepared'."
- George W. Bush

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."
- George W. Bush

"The future will be better tomorrow."
- George W. Bush

"We're going to have the best educated American people in the world."
- George W. Bush

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
- George W. Bush

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe We are a part of Europe."
- George W. Bush

"Public speaking is very easy."
- George W. Bush

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
- George W. Bush

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
- George W. Bush

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."
- George W. Bush

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."
- George W. Bush

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
- George W. Bush

"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."
- George W. Bush

I think that your point is that much talk is at best nonsense, and often outright lies. I agree with that. That nonsense and those lies have, of course, proven to be very expensive for our nation and the world.

These are examples of the nonsense; the lies are not so funny. Yet this does not change the fact that talk ain't cheap. All it proves is that the president is a fool. Those are two different things.

My OP is not intended to say that Barack Obama's speeches are equal to or the same as any of those examples I provide. Rather, it is to show that those who say talk is cheap are at risk of sounding like the president -- foolish, indeed, because our nation's history shows the opposite to be true. That doesn't mean all talk is of equal value.

(A person who reads DU, but does not participate, had sent me the Bush list yesterday.)

[boppers]

74. H2O man delivers!

*This* is why I joined DU.

[ShortnFiery]

75. Muchismo "Kudos" H20 Hombre!

My best attempt - a little Spanglish (Spanish-English) :blush:

¡Sí, Se Puede!