Let me tell you about hope...

[mrbluto]

Remember the old fable: Pandora's Box?

In it was "Greed" and "Envy" and "Hate" and "Pride" and a whole host of other damaging modes of thought and emotion.

"Hope" was in there along with them.

Was it an antidote to all the other ills?

Why would Pandora's enemy give her the antidote?

She didn't.

"Hope" is a damaging mode of thought.

It's a weak version of ambition.

It's a toxic version of optimism.

Hope is why people think "I can get another week out of these old tires."

Hope is why people run up huge credit card bills.

Hope is why people will spend $100k on an incurable disease rather than prenatal care.

Hope is why people are stuck in jobs and situations and relationships that slowly bleed them down to eventual collapse.

Hope is a nice way of saying "willfully ignorant of my chances"

Hope is a nice way of saying "Yes, I know you need help, but I'm not going to do any thing about it. Maybe someone else will."

Hope is a teflon way of saying "I'll take a risk" knowing one will keep the rewards for themselves, yet share the costs of failure with everyone else.


I'm surprised anyone can campaign on "Hope".

It's a F*CKING insult.

It's what you tell slaves or subjects to console themselves with. It's cost effective.

"Hope" is an unacceptable answer coming from an equal citizen, never mind a "public servant".

We need planning. We need action. We need contingencies. NO Excuses.


Do you think woman's suffrage in this country was "hoped" for?

Do you think people in unions merely "hoped" for decent wages and work conditions?

Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. "hoped" he could give a compelling speech, or "hoped" people would listen?

Do you think the folks who began the tearing down of the Berlin Wall "hoped" it would crumble on it's own?

Do you think the US Army "hoped" it's way across the channel on D-Day?

Do you think NASA "hoped" it's way to the moon?

Do you think any of the big players in the corporate world have "Hope" as an instrumental part of their plans?

... actually they do.

They plan on all of us to sit here and "Hope" while they mop up and eliminate whatever remaining chances we have to escape their plans for our labor as well as the economic shackles and mental straitjackets they want us in.

So go ahead and hope if you want.

I see dependence on the word "hope" coming from any candidate as a sure sign they have no respect for me - for us.

Any questions?

[applegrove]

1. I like Hope. Sorry. It is a good word.

[mrbluto]

2. Sorry is....

Another word that's much abused.

[stellanoir]

3. There is a distinction between hope and delusion.

Just saying.

[mrbluto]

8. Hope and Delusion

Sure enough - but how do you distinguish?

I bet any deluded person would claim to be "hoping" when confronted with evidence that they have no practical plan to achieve their goals.

I think the Greeks knew a little something way back when that story got told, and that it's lasted this long because it has the ring of truth to it.

You should hear my take on Ulysses or Icarus, or Prometheus for that matter.

All those stories got forged in the crucible of one of the first sizable democracies that we would recognize as such.

[stellanoir]

37. I would guess by the amount of effort and intention applied or lack thereof.

Delusion is ungrounded. Hope is sometimes grounded albeit to widely varying degrees, and also can be based on intuitive cognizance.

I LOVE Joyce and Greek mythology and would love to hear your takes on those themes at some point.

Did you ever watch Hercules and/or Xena ? They were unbelievably campy but so-o-o funny and fairly accurate, though over the top characterizations of some of the Greek gods and goddesses.

I don't watch the tube much now but those shows were on when my kid was young and we really got a kick out of them.

[mrbluto]

64. Only read to page sixty of Ulysses

Sorry, my bad - I was referring to Odysseus.

The whole bit on the isle of the cyclops is a recipe for rebellion if you ask me. (taking out the heavy with the singular vision, hiding amongst the "cattle", etc.)

[Taverner]

4. Hope and Faith are dangerous

[countingbluecars]

5. You can turn just about

any word negative if you are a pessimist.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Hope without action is useless, but hope inspires action.

If people never hoped they would never do anything. MLK's hope informed his speeches and motivated others to act. If JFK hadn't hoped for a mission to the moon in the first place NASA never would have done it. Hoping for a better life motivated the destruction of the Berlin Wall. But if you have no hope you'll just sit on your ass and complain about how your life sucks. Hope plants the seeds for action. Hope is a wonderful thing.

[mrbluto]

12. I'll tell you what I hope for.

On one hand I hope that the contenders for the Democratic nomination would tell us what they plan rather than spew generalities and empty rhetoric.

On one hand I hope to hear a plan.

On one hand I hope to hear a real critique of the past seven years, of the class set-up that existed since before I was born.

And if I was stupid enough to sh*t in the other hand you can guess which is going to fill up first.

[AndyA]

7. After over seven years of the Bush Administration,

America needs more than Hope. Hope will get you nothing but disappointment.

We need leadership, experience, honesty, transparency, vision, ethics, morals, equality, a fair chance, etc.

Hope? You can keep hope and give me the rest. I need something more concrete than hope and promises at this point. Have we learned nothing from Bush?

[phantom power]

9. I like you.

[TexasObserver]

10. I HOPE I never have to read a post that ridiculous again.

Hope is a small town in Arkansas near Booger Hollow, and I HOPE that's where the Clintons go when this is over, so we can all get on with the HOPE we have for America and the Democratic Party under Barack Obama's leadership.

Do keep trying to sell NO WE CAN'T as a campaign slogan. It's perfect for a fiscally and morally bankrupt campaign.

[mrbluto]

13. What are you getting at?

I honestly want to know.

What was ridiculous about my post?

What was the first specific thing you found objectionable?

Who is selling "No We Can't"? Me?

[griffi94]

40. to the texas observer

yer post is ridiculous because he's an obama follower...he's drank the kool aid...and no criticism of obama is permitted....it comes down to sloganeering in the end.........i agree with you...i had a friend of mine who tried to open a small cabinet business.....i had another friend who was a CPA look at his business plan and tell him how much available capital he would need to start....friend a was about 30k short...he only needed around 40k...but he decided to go ahead....he quit his job....signed a lease for shop space.....took on an equipment note.....didn't have money for payroll...liability insurance...advertising.....petty cash for everyday office supplies...deposit for the phones....the money for the fax machines and copiers....he had in effect nothing. he had the money to stay afloat for 2 months...but he did have a few jobs on his book....he got advances on those...spent the money on things other than the jobs...had to get more jobs so he could get advance money to finish the previous round of jobs....a vicious circle...of course he was wiped out completely within 1 year

his plan when i would try to help him was this

FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION good slogan....sorry ass plan

[mrbluto]

67. Exactly!

Yes. This is what I'm talking about.

I got "hope" up to my eyeballs - I want to hear the plan.

Not have it taken for granted that I gotta vote for them, nor fob me off with nice vague words.

Might as well tell me "the check is in the mail."

[TexasObserver]

61. That your post is utter nonsense, and that I'm done reading your thinly veiled Hill Shilling

I said GOOD DAY, SIR!

[mrbluto]

69. Please ignore me!

Seriously.

If you're going to make useless, pointless posts like that, then it is a good day when you tell me you're heading off.

If only I could believe you.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

72. Just so you know, that particular poster has 2100+

posts in 2 weeks ... ALL saying nothing, just attacking.

That's how he spreads his 'hope'.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. "NO, WE CAN'T!" That has a nice ring to it. Don't bother to hope for anything.

It won't do you any good. It's useless. Let's pull back and get all sober and realistic and maybe try to do a few little incremental things if it's not too hard and nobody tries to stop us; we don't want to be foolish enough to hope we can actually do something really big to make things better, because hope is totally stupid and it just insults us.

NO, WE CAN'T!
NO, WE CAN'T!
NO, WE CAN'T!


Yeah. That'll work.

[mrbluto]

18. Who's saying "No We Can't"?

Seriously - where do I say that?

I listed a number of inspiring achievements.

I just don't chalk them up to "Hope".

I think there is a great opportunity this coming general election to get on the right track, to fix damage, to make gains, to provide a better chance for our children to grow and learn and be healthy and happy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. If you discourage hope, you discourage action.

The first leads to the second. If you think there's a great opportunity for improvement, aren't you hoping? Isn't that the very definition of hope? You have to start somewhere, and hope is the start. It can't be the end, but it has to be the beginning.

[mrbluto]

24. Look - we got "Hope" covered I think.

If anyone in the Democratic party hasn't been hoping the Bush administration was over then they were probably in a coma.

We got hope covered.

We're all stocked up on hope.

I wish the candidates would go sell "Hope" somewhere else.

Better yet - let's hear a plan.

Let's hear a real critique of what's gone wrong the past seven years - one they commit to, one they can't weasel out of once elected.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. "hope" is used to put the opponent in a semantic prison, because

on the surface, it's hard to argue against "hope".

[mrbluto]

16. Plus it's very cost effective to hope.

Hope takes very little effort and nearly no expenditure of resources.

If you take no actual action, or even waste time planning.

I like your point about the semantic jujitsu too.

[babylonsister]

14. How can a word be damaging? It's the feeling I get that's inspiring-to me.

I won't let you rain on my parade, and am so sorry you're in such a negative mode there. But I'm sure you'll find plenty of people around here to keep you company.

[Bluerthanblue]

17. your POST is a fable-

Pandoras Box was a MYTH- and who ever taught you this myth was as wrong as the person who first told me about it.

Hope- was the only redeeming thing put in the jar-

And it was all, Pandora (the first woman) was able to keep in the jar.

It was our 'salvation'.


Without hope we all would commit suicide.

It is essential to life.

I've lived without it a few times myself. If it were not for the hope of people who loved me, I'd have been dead.


don't dismiss hope or your own need for it. Without the vision of the mountaintop- the HOPE that some day, instead of being met with dogs, and fire hoses, and lynching and jail, MLKjr. wouldn't have marched anywhere- or united anyone.


I wish you HOPE
its companion

peace~

[mrbluto]

19. It's in every version.

So answer this question:

Why did Pandora's enemy put a good thing in the box?

You think myths are children's stories, or parables that adults could refer to?

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. It was not an ENEMY that gave her the box.

It was entrusted to her care by the Gods. She was not told what was in it, but only cautioned to never open it. Being a woman (sexist, yes, I know) she was overcome by her curiosity and opened the box and out of it flew every evil in the world before she could close it again. Despairing over what she had done, she was told to look inside again, and there, remaining in the box, was the antidote to every evil that had been released - Hope.

Learn your fucking mythology.

[mrbluto]

55. Not in the version I read.

The one I read indicated that she was given a box by a jealous matron who knew she couldn't resist eventually opening the box.

Besides, the parable was for illustrative purposes.

You do get what I'm saying about hope - don't you?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. Hope was the only thing left:

"When Pandora opened Pandora's Box, she let out all the evils except one: hope. Apparently, the Greeks considered hope to be as dangerous as all the world's evils. But without hope to accompany all their troubles, humanity was filled with despair. It was a great relief when Pandora revisited her box and let out hope as well. It may be worthy to note that in the story, hope is represented as weakly leaving the box but is in effect far more potent than any of the major evils." (from Wiki)

[mrbluto]

27. Thank you.

You hit the critical bit:

...she let out all the evils except one: hope.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. But you didn't mention the rest of it:

It was a great relief when Pandora revisited her box and let out hope as well.

[mrbluto]

35. Same as...

...how relieved a heroin addict might be once they have their fix.

[Bluerthanblue]

48. no, without hope, creation would cease to exist.

-

You can't prove your opinion is correct, using a myth to support you-

Sorry MrBluto, ask any mental health professional, or sociologist- if a person is without hope- they die.

peace~

[mrbluto]

50. Really? That in the DSM IV?

Do they call it "hope"?

Are there no other words for optimism about the future?

I'm not proving an opinion - I'm offering it.

"Creation" would cease? Are there no practical reasons to create things?

[Bluerthanblue]

65. listen- this may

be some kind of mind-fuck game for you, but I will tell you- not from opinion- but from experience, that when a human being is devoid of HOPE- when the mind cannot imagine that anything other than more of the same (and the same is beyond enduring) is EVER going to be possible, then the only possible way forward is to stop existing.

I've struggled with suicidal ideation for a large part of my life.

I've survived two very near fatal attempts to end my own life.

I understand what being bankrupt of "hope" really is all about.

Play your word games all you like- but don't dictate to others that the one thing that many of us have that keeps us going even in the worst of times, is somehow WRONG.

Your smart ass know it all comments may make you feel very good. But they are destructive.

Tell a little girl living in an incestuous situation, that "hope" is foolish- (yeah, maybe she should have walked out into traffic)

Tell someone diagnosed with ovarian cancer that "hope" is foolish- ( no, the odds aren't good- but what is the alternative?)

Tell the woman with young children, no job skills, no money that her "hope" of getting out of her abusive marriage is craziness- (maybe you will convince her to stay till she dies)


I could go on, and on and on.

Think about your statements Mr Bluto.

Think about the actual value of "hope"- the ability to accept the possibility that just because it has always been shitty- it doesn't have to STAY that way.

Find a new word to destroy- ok? Cause you can't have my HOPE- it's the one thing I'm not willing to relinquish without a fight.


:nuke:





peace~

[mrbluto]

71. Please...

... take my post in the spirit it was intended - a wake up call.

I'm happy you're here to call me a smart ass - no kidding.

I'm glad that you've successfully wrestled with suicidal ideation and hope you read my post numbered 53. Once you do you'll understand that I'd never want to deny that little girl, that person with the diagnosis, or that woman with young children, the motivation and strength to make it through their trials.

What I do want to do is light a fire under the butts of people who abuse the notion of hope, either as an excuse to acquies or as a tool to enslave.

I do have to caution you however that this is a rough and tumble forum, as any political forum is, and that if you have any doubts about how the conversations on this board may affect you, then you should consider not taking the risk.

We can't hobble these deliberations or debate for the frailties of anyone who freely chooses to join them.

[Bluerthanblue]

45. that is one "take" on it- Wiki is good, but it is an assembly of

opinions, and perspectives. With a "MYTH" it would be difficult to say which one is "correct". ;)

This 'myth' has many variants.

Pandora(which means all gifts) was sent to destroy "creation". She was punishment for mankind (there were no women before pandora) having been given the gift of fire.

The only thing that didn't escape the "box" - actually a jar- (some say symbolic of the womans uterus) was hope. Pandora tried to catch all the other things and return them to the jar, but she couldn't. The only thing she was able to keep inside the jar was the weakest gift.

With all the evils unleashed upon mankind, all humanity would have ceased to exist- but "hope" was still in the jar. And because "hope" was set free we still exist.

[mrbluto]

53. Very interesting.

I'm going to have to read up more.

Forgot/didn't know the bit about "there were no women before Pandora".

I agree that my take is merely one take on the fable/myth.

In my opinion though the reason it has lasted is that it was a useful parable to discuss subjects such as curiosity and hope. (and probably birth and motherhood)

I chose it to illustrate my feelings about how the word hope is used and abused.

At some core sincere level I must agree that "hope" and "faith" have seen humans through dark times and moments that no rational person would endure, often to the benefit of us all.

But knowing that makes me sensitive to the misuse of the term, and the impulse.

[TexasObserver]

68. Thank you. Pandora's Box is story with a point, and that point is HOPE.

In spite of all the other things unleashed in life that we must traverse.

Now can we put Pandora in a LOCK BOX? (That's for my boy, Al, who was right about the lock box)

[goodhue]

21. Hope Rocks, Fear Sucks

Choose Hope, Not Fear

[mrbluto]

29. Is that my choice?

How about action?

How about planning?

You present a false choice.

I don't blame you - because when are we offered any other sort in this country?

[goodhue]

63. Action and planning are part and parcel of a politics of hope.

The point is that folks are empowered when they reject a politics of fear, and choose transformative politics of hope. A politics of hope can and should include action and planning. Perhaps you recall the 2004 slogan of Kucinich--Fear Ends, Hope Begins . . .

http://www.4president.us/tv/2004/kucinich2004.htm

Danny Glover: Fear ends. Hope begins. Listen up, young America.

If pre-emptive war continues to drive our foreign policy, if our volunteer troops are stretched thinner and thinner, you could be facing compulsory draft. All young Americans deserve a world without end -- not a war without end.

Kucinich for President! The eyes that see through the lies!

Dennis Kucinich: I'm Dennis Kucinich, and I'm running for president.

Do I approve this commercial? You bet!

[mrbluto]

80. I like DK.

But I can only be optimistic to a certain extent.

This country isn't ready for him.

It might need him - ain't ready.

[burythehatchet]

22. No questions. I just feel dumber having read that torturted passage. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

25. LOL! Yep...

[mrbluto]

32. Wow. What a stunningly informative contribution.

This isn't a poll - it is a discussion thread.

Do you have anything useful to add?

Otherwise why bother?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. I thought I contributed several thoughtful posts.

You just want everyone to agree with you, and we don't.

[mrbluto]

38. Far from it.

Make an argument about exactly how hope, aside from the initial inspiration, really accomplishes anything.

Tell me why you would rely on a doctor, or lawyer, or auto mechanic who only offered "hope" rather than a detailed plan, who kept talking about "hope" rather than definitively call out the criminally negligent people who have so damaged this country?

I want them to commit!

I want no turning back and saying "don't worry - it was all to get elected" to the people across the aisle once elected.

They should be adversaries!

Not like on this recent senate capitulation on the FISA bill, or the weak opposition both candidates have presented to the Bush Juggernaut.

I honestly don't know how either can claim to have integrity and still be in office.

I'd like them to explain.

[mrbluto]

26. No questions?

Are you sure you're a progressive?

Wouldn't you like to have some sort of dialog rather than merely dismiss my post?

If it was so damaging why'd you bother to comment?

[burythehatchet]

36. I thought that's how these newfangled blog thingies work.

:shrug:

But let me get a serious for a moment and rebut your learned observation by using the Socratic method: Is there any indication that the Obama campaign is saying that "hope" is the only vehicle for change? Or, would it be logical to believe that "hope" is a necessary element to begin the transformative process and that the energies of millions of new participants, a new Democratic led coalition, an electoral mandate and a super-majority in congress might actually lead to the concrete changes that most of us desire?

Just askin'

[mrbluto]

47. Structure of the question.

I have a little trouble with the structure of your question, but here goes:

Is there any indication that the Obama campaign is saying that "hope" is the only vehicle for change?

I've heard vagueness about Obama's plans, but the resounding theme is "hope" - I think at this point we in the democratic party should get down to a deliberation of the nuts and bolts of what's gone wrong and how it's going to be repaired.

So the problem I had with structure is where you put the "or" - I don't think what you ask is mutually exclusive.

...would it be logical to believe that "hope" is a necessary element to begin the transformative process and that the energies of millions of new participants,...

It's nice to have new participants, but it's not the critical thing. Bush is at 67% disapproval - we need to make sure that the Republican candidate is properly attached to that record. We also need to show that Democrats can get something done. Throwing the spotlight on the culprits would do nicely.

...a new Democratic led coalition, ...

Coalition with who? The Republicans have made it clear that they really don't want to work with us - look what they did when they had a majority in the legislatures. To reward them now, or let them off the hook creates a moral hazard.

...an electoral mandate...

The guy for that was Edwards, a guy tested in one presidental campaign and good looking white southern guy, Republicans and Independents might have switched for him. They're not for the current candidates. This one will be a squeaker - not a sweep. As much as we might wish.

...and a super-majority in congress might actually lead to the concrete changes that most of us desire?

Look at the way Bush has congress and the senate dancing to his tune right now, despite being the minority party. It's clear that while it might help, it's not the deciding factor about what happens. "Money" can always work it's will on a large diffuse group, but that's much harder to do to an individual politician, a president, who probably has the streak on narcissism necessary to have run in the first place. Those guys they gotta shot it seems.

BTW - Thanks for posing actual questions!

[cottonseed]

28. Didn't Hillary flutter out from Pandora's box?

nt

[mrbluto]

33. Wrong fable.

You're not the Cotton Seed, are you?

(I know someone named that)

[cottonseed]

75. Nah, I'm a cottonseed, but not the Cotton Seed

[griffi94]

31. that is absolutey great

that is perfect...it expresses the same feelings of uneasiness that i get from the kumbya moments i've seen on teevee

[K Gardner]

39. How long have you been this angry? How very sad.

[mrbluto]

49. Psycho-babble.

Does that gambit ever work for you?

I mean with competent adults?

What was sad about my post?

BTW - if you're not angry then I doubt you're paying attention.

[Indenturedebtor]

90. What a well written and hopeless post

I think that this response pretty well covers it:
------------------------------------------------------

Bluerthanblue (1000+ posts) Fri Feb-15-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. your POST is a fable-
Pandoras Box was a MYTH- and who ever taught you this myth was as wrong as the person who first told me about it.

Hope- was the only redeeming thing put in the jar-

And it was all, Pandora (the first woman) was able to keep in the jar.

It was our 'salvation'.


Without hope we all would commit suicide.

It is essential to life.

I've lived without it a few times myself. If it were not for the hope of people who loved me, I'd have been dead.


don't dismiss hope or your own need for it. Without the vision of the mountaintop- the HOPE that some day, instead of being met with dogs, and fire hoses, and lynching and jail, MLKjr. wouldn't have marched anywhere- or united anyone.


I wish you HOPE
its companion

peace~

[w13rd0]

41. Do you find it in any way ironic...

...that you choose to use a fable wherein a woman is responsible for all the evils in the world to further the cause of Senator Clinton?

[mrbluto]

59. Do you find it in any way ironic...

...that I'm not a Clinton supporter?

And about the woman releasing the all the evils, well...in a sense that is true.

Woman give birth.

"Evil" is a human thing.

Men are no less responsible for the worlds ills however.

[silverweb]

42. You're full of shit.

n/t

[mrbluto]

73. Such excellent input - you must be proud.

Did you have anything useful to add to this thread?

Or did you just want to check in with your opinion?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

43. Martin Luther King was just a silly dreamer, wasn't he?

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day."


You know what? I like his approach a whole lot better than yours. And that's all I have to say on the matter.

[mrbluto]

76. Notice...Hope, yes, but also "work", "stand", "know", "struggle"

He doesn't wear the word out.

He calls them like he sees them I don't think he's hedging when he calls out the "vicious racists". That commitment.

I think he'd also recognize the "interposition and nullification" right at the heart of our own party.

He wouldn't be a triangulator, nor a trianglulator-in-waiting.

[Catherine Vincent]

44. Hope is good.

It's just that Obama is abusing it.

[mrbluto]

77. Well....yeah.

But I'm not sure Clinton would do any different if it would work.

Be that as it may - they can be as calculating as they need to be to keep another Republican out of office.

But to get my vote I want them to COMMIT to action.

Even a Machiavellian narcissist delivers if he/she knows his/her credibility will be demolished if they don't deliver.

I don't read minds - so I want a concrete plan and accountability.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. What is "I have a dream..." if not hope?

When the farmer plants his crop, he hopes for rain, but not floods. He hopes for insects that pollinate, rather than consume.

Hope is not an action - it is a state of mind. It is what allows the farmer to plant year after year, despite bad crops in the past.

You have no idea what "hope" is - and that saddens me. It must be terribly depressing.

[rug]

52. I'm voting for Obama to save the bees.

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. I hope somebody can save the bees,

because I know I can't. I am no biologist.

[mrbluto]

78. Nope - exactly wrong.

He doesn't hope for rain - he has consulted the Farmer's Almanac or Climate information or he's a fool to plant.

He doesn't hope for bees - he knows if they're around, if they aren't he hires a beekeeper and has a budget to do so.

If he's still planting after "bad crops in the past" he's either done the math and rationally figures he's got a positive expected value - or he's a chump.

Even given all that and the wiles of probability he's taken out insurance or hedged amongst crops, or financially, or made the contingencies necessary so he can sustain his effort or have the capital to choose an alternate - if he's a responsible person.

And let me take a minute to say that psycho-babble like this:

You have no idea what "hope" is - and that saddens me. It must be terribly depressing.

Is the sort of crap that gives democrats a bad name.

This is a political forum - not an encounter group.

If it makes you so sad then why don't you f*cking leave?

Are you staying to "help" me?

I don't think I, or any other honest person on this thread, thinks that your "how sad" canard originates from any sort of empathy.

It is however very similar to a gambit I heard tried out by a pitiful neocon in Harvard Square once.

[tabatha]

54. Have you noticed the enormous number of people going to

the polls this year --- that is hope in action.

[mrbluto]

79. Half right.

It's action all right.

That's a good sign, I'll grant that.

But it isn't hope on it's own.

It's people discussing and and debating and persuading.

It's logistics and media resources and commitments.

It's trust and planning and gas money and time.

Not merely hope.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. So you're saying you hope Obama doesn't win?

[mrbluto]

81. Haw. Very Cute.

But no.

I'm not sure it much matters between the two at this point.

and they've yet to convince me.

[jmg257]

58. "Hope" is the difference between voting for the lesser of 2 evils, and voting for someone who can

change things to make them better...that feeling, that BELIEF, is worthwhile.

Many feel that if we elect Hillary, there is NO hope things will get better - oh maybe better then Bush, but no real change overall - as she seems, even with all her vast experience(???) to be just more of the same old thing, the same old problem - along with even more govt and more control over we the people. Obama on the other hand represents once again that we the people DO matter, that once again there is something worth believing in re: Washington D.C.

I am ALL for hope when it is out there, when it is offered, and when it is all we have NOW; it keeps us active and interested.
The actions will come later (after Nov 4th).

[mrbluto]

82. I disagree to some extent.

I think that either could take stands NOW that will commit them to action.

Not tie them down to particular policies, but action.

Tearing the current administration a new one, stating, in detail, the crimes that should never be allowed again should be no problem for any honestly progressive candidate.

[snappyturtle]

60. You either get it or you don't. I actually feel sorry for those who don't.

Maybe this will help: from www.m-w.com

Main Entry: 1hope
Pronunciation: \ˈhōp\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): hoped; hop·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hopian; akin to Middle High German hoffen to hope
Date: before 12th century
intransitive verb
1: to cherish a desire with anticipation <hopes for a promotion>
2archaic : trust
transitive verb
1: to desire with expectation of obtainment
2: to expect with confidence : trust

[mrbluto]

83. Do you understand what I was getting at?

Forget the word "hope" in particular.

I'm really taking a swipe at the bait and switch, the pig-in-a-poke, toxic enthymemes that suffuse today's political dialog.

They're treating us like children. Children who pay taxes. And vote. And die in wars. And are on the losing end of class warfare.

[snappyturtle]

89. I understand what you're saying. I guess it's just that I haven't

felt "hope" for soon long now that its usage strikes me in a good sense. I do agree that the political dialog leaves a lot to be desired and anything is better than the manner in which * has been talking to us. He really treats us like children. He KNOWS what's best for us and tells us in very simple terms ( the only ones which he probably understands!). Sorry, if I seemed to get off the track. I only slept a couple of hours last night.

[Armstead]

62. "I come from a Place Called Hope" --- BILL CLINTON

[mrbluto]

85. Yep.

See how permanent those administrations gains were?

Look, I like Bill - Bill Clinton was the last good Republican president we've had.

And for the record - Nixon was the last good Democratic president we had.

And if you understand that joke then we're probably on the same page.

[Armstead]

88. I get it and it's basically true

But I do believe that hope is a necessary step towards actual change...Or at least optimism that things can get better.

[Reterr]

66. Agree-empty platitude wear thin after a while.eom

[Rosa Luxemburg]

70. Once you choose hope, anything's possible (for all Doubting Thomas's)

Take hope from the heart of man and you make him a beast of prey
Hope is putting faith to work when doubting would be easier
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it
Hope is the last thing ever lost

[mrbluto]

86. Um. Don't really know what to say to that.

Other than would you like to see more faith-based engineers?

How about more surgeons who depend on hope as their sole qualification.

Do you hope the bank keeps it's records correct, or do you check up on them? (i.e. balance your check book?)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

91. sometimes you have to cross your fingers!

nothing is failsafe

[DS1]

74. fuck fuck fuckety fuck

fucking fuck fucker fuck

[ProSense]

84. "I'm surprised anyone can campaign on 'Hope'." Hillary is too, but here is why Obama is ahead:

The politics of hope does not mean hoping things come easy.

Because nothing worthwhile in this country has ever happened

unless somebody, somewhere stood up when it was hard; stood up

when they were told – no you can’t, and said yes we can."

link

[mrbluto]

87. Getting warmer.

So I want to hear more.

Is he saying it? Or not saying it?

Is he saying it, in meaningful detail?

Is the MSM not letting it through?

Why do all I hear is hope, hope, hope?

I'm not seeming any rubber meet the road on either of these candidates.

Not saying it's impossible.

But I'm not betting on it.