The RNC was smarter than the DNC re: rogue primiary states. We have a mess now. And Hillary is right

[Skip Intro]

They still let the votes of the voters count, just cut the delegate representation. The DNC basically told the voters of FL/MI their votes were meaningless. Now we have a situation where Dem voters in those states may well end up motivated to NOT vote in Nov. It is a mess, and the DNC is pretty much responsible for it, not because they tried to punish the states for moving up the primaries, but because they did it in a way that disenfranchises the voters in those states.

Yes, it would help her chances should delegates from those states be seated, but Hillary does have a point outside of that result. We tell these voters their votes are meaningless now, why should they come out to support the eventual Dem nominee in November? It is a valid point, and regardless of what you think of her, she did the party a great service by thanking those voters in person for their votes.

How this mess is handled now will have an effect on on party motivation in those states in Nov. We ignore that at our own peril.

[MaineDem]

1. That's an option for the DNC

They can reinstate half of their delegates.

[UALRBSofL]

20. I'm not worried about the RNC

With being in a depression/recession they don't stand a chance.

[iconoclastic cat]

2. Bullshit. The top 3 candidates were not all on the MI ballot. nt

[polmaven]

12. That was their own choice

was it not?

[KittyWampus]

15. Yes, they choose to abide by the rules, you girl did not. Why should she be rewarded?

[elixir]

27. Did the rules say "take your name off the ballot?" No, that' politics, my friend.

The rules said no campaigning which I believe Obama DID. Keep in mind that Obama and others removed their names from the Michigan ballot, not because of some diktat from the DNC, but due to a political maneuver by Obama to keep the focus of the race on Iowa.

[Arugula Latte]

36. Yeah -- that's politics. Rovian politics.

How inspiring...Wow, that Hillary. She's just as conniving as Bushco.

[iconoclastic cat]

18. No, they all agreed to stay out. Sen. Clinton broke her pledge. nt

[juajen]

23. They agreed not to campaign or advertise in those states. It was their

choice whether or not they were on the ballot. Some of the candidates promised the early states they would not be on the ballot. Again, their choice. Hillary chose to be both ballots. Hillary broke no rules. As a matter of fact, Obama broke the rules by having a cable ad run in Florida, even though his campaign claimed they had no choice; everybody knows that cable can target states or areas or leave some out. Obama's campaign was disingenuous to say the least.

[pampango]

26. They agreed there were no delegates at stake also. No one said anything

about this until after South Carolina. Let's face it they all agreed to sanction Michigan and Florida, because they were playing up to the early primary states.

They all also probably thought that it contributed to party solidarity for them to stick with the DNC decision to sanction Michigan and Florida. Hillary valued party solidarity at the time they agreed to this, because she was the odds-on favorite and a unified party would be helpful for the GE. The others didn't have much choice but to go along with the DNC's ruling in order to be a part of the primaries.

What I am not sure of is if at the time last year when the candidates signed onto the sanctioning of Michigan and Florida, any of them could foresee that the state parties would go ahead with the primaries and then clamor to have the results ratified by the convention. Did Hillary already look at Florida and Michigan as firewalls in which, if the early states didn't go as well as expected, she could count on freezing out campaigning of her challengers and the presence of friendly state parties to lock in her early polling leads and award delegates, anyway?

[elixir]

28. They agreed not to campaign - name on ballot didn't fall w/in this ...

The rules said no campaigning which I believe Obama DID. Keep in mind that Obama and others removed their names from the Michigan ballot, not because of some diktat from the DNC, but due to a political maneuver by Obama to keep the focus of the race on Iowa.

[Cha]

32. hilary breaking a pledge to

get herself back in the whitehouse?! That's nothing compared to voting for the IWR so she could look tough and that's a bloody trail..the little conniver.

[Cant trust em]

3. I hope that the nomination can be settled without them

at this point I don't know how likely that is, but I hope it's the case.

[sybylla]

10. Me, too.

I'd like to think there will be a clear winner who won't need either of those state's delegates.

I'd also add that Florida Dems disenfranchised their own voters. They knew the rules when they proposed their change. Tough noogies.

[madfloridian]

4. Is that you, James Carville??? Those were his words right after we won.

in November 2006. He said the RNC did a better job.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Skip Intro]

6. and how did we do in FL in 04?

[madfloridian]

7. What kind of argument is that? You are just spinning.

:rofl:

[Skip Intro]

21. Not rocket science.

I bring up a past election because you brought up a past election. We went into the 04 election with anti-bush sentiment running high, and it was a big motivating factor for Dems then. We still lost FL. We do not have that this time around. A situation where we tell Democrats in FL that we just do not care what they think in Feb is certain to dampen motivation of those same voters, many of them at least, to show up for the party in November.

Again, not rocket science.

[madfloridian]

9. And then Carville implied the Clintons did not disapprove.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/838

[Skip Intro]

19. replied to wrong post

[elixir]

29. It is funny, isn't it? And I'll laugh too when the delegates are counted..

The rules said no campaigning which I believe Obama DID. Keep in mind that Obama and others removed their names from the Michigan ballot, not because of some diktat from the DNC, but due to a political maneuver by Obama to keep the focus of the race on Iowa.

[madfloridian]

40. Ok, I call you out on what you say. Prove he campaigned and Hillary didn't

and Bill didn't. Prove it or quit saying it.

[sandnsea]

5. No, the voters who are hoodwinked

by Clinton playing games with elections are the ones who will stay home. Hillary can't afford to have more people pissed at her.

[elixir]

31. Man, all Floridians are pissed, all. Read the posts on FL blogs...

They were duped and will not be happy in November. But you don't care because your candidate won't do well there.

The rules said no campaigning which I believe Obama DID. Keep in mind that Obama and others removed their names from the Michigan ballot, not because of some diktat from the DNC, but due to a political maneuver by Obama to keep the focus of the race on Iowa.

[madfloridian]

38. Bill was here also. So was Hillary.

Hillary came here to declare victory, and to say she would insist their delegates be counted.



http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1793

[DJ13]

8. "And Hillary is right"

Which Hillary is right?

The Hillary that agreed to abide by the party rules and not campaign in either state because there wouldnt be any delegates?

Or the Hillary that's now desperate for delegates and wants those states to count?

Which Hillary is right?

And after Kerry do we really want another "flip flopper" as a nominee?

[juajen]

25. Hillary did not campaign in either state.

The candidates were allowed to fund raise, and choose whether or not they would remain on the ballot, and she chose to be on both ballots, along with Kucinich and Gravel in MI, I believe, or maybe that was FL. She also visited after the vote to thank Florida voters, which was the proper thing to do. She always said that she hoped FL and MI delegates would eventually be seated.

Obama and Edwards, and some of the other candidates, elected to make agreements with the early states not to have their name on the ballot. This was their choice. They decided to curry favor with the early states and take a chance on whether or not the delegates would be seated.

How many times do the facts have to be stated before all of you remember them, or do you just dis-remember on purpose? Sour grapes because Obama chose not to be on the ballots, or because she won both states?

[jackson_dem]

30. Everyone was on the ballot in Florida and Obama lost by 300,000 despite running ads there

This is what it is all about. Obama lost despite cheating in Florida and Obamites don't want Florida's voice to be heard because it has the fourth biggest delegation.

[Cha]

35. The hilary that wants the whitehouse

so damn bad she'll destroy anything in her path and that includes voting for the IWR to look tough.

[islandmkl]

11. The RNC was smarter....yeah, for about the past 27 years...

The DNC barely helped Bill get elected (remember Ross Perot?) and the Congress went right in the dumper in '94. The gains of 2006 (remember them, and where have they gone?) were the first positive accomplishments since Reagan and the DNC immediately finds itself trying not to lose a White House that the Beaver has basically handed to it. Dean and all may be trying to grow our strength, but old-school Dems are just as entrenched as their GOP counterparts. It is time for the Party to find its roots...before the DNC, before the DLC...the more the PEOPLE are involved, the stronger the Democratic Party has always been. Trying to follow the GOP's tactic of low-involvement, die-hard followers does not work for the Dems...thank God (or whoever/whatever)

[damntexdem]

13. The DNC blew it, but Hillary is wrong.

It was always stupid to punish the voters of FL & MI for what their Dem leaders did. Somehow delegates need to be selected for those states. But it would NOT be fair to seat delegates elected in the rogue primaries, given that only HRC was on the ballots, and especially given the lack of campaigning in those states. Caucuses would probably be the most feasible way to select delegates now -- but whatever might be put in place should allow choice by Dems among the remaining candidates for the nomination.

[madfloridian]

17. The DNC followed the rules. The states broke the rules.

.

[blm]

14. Why doesn't Terry McAuliffe come out and explain it since he first put up this rule at the DNC

in the first place?

Hillary HAS an expert on this rule, why doesn't he get to be the frontman on the issue when he is the EXPERT who set it up in the first place?

Have YOU contacted him? Do you know where he can be reached?

[NJmaverick]

16. She has a point all right, at the top of her head

She is just looking to steal the election, like George Bush stole his. There is way to many similarities between George and Hillary, for my liking.

[WilyWondr]

22. Those pesky rules though

11.A.
No meetings, caucuses, conventions or primaries which constitute the first determining stage in
the presidential nomination process (the date of the primary in primary states, and the date of the
first tier caucus in caucus states) may be held prior to the first Tuesday in February or after the
second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that
the Iowa precinct caucuses may be held no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in
February; that the Nevada first-tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 17 days before the
first Tuesday in February; that the New Hampshire primary may be held no earlier than 14
days before the first Tuesday in February; and that the South Carolina primary may be held
no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February. In no instance may a state which
scheduled delegate selection procedures on or between the first Tuesday in February and the
second Tuesday in June 1984 move out of compliance with the provisions of this rule.

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/2008delegateselectionrules.pdf

How will HRC get around that rule?

And the DNC didn't do it, it was the Florida legislature that changed their primary date. The DNC was doing everything they could to stop them from changing it.

[mckeown1128]

24. I'm confused. You say that "Hillary is right"....

and then say we shouldn't tell the voters they are meaninless...????


Hillary said that MI "doesn't count for anything".... so which statement is she right about?

[PermanentRevolution]

33. I love how...

all of us Florida voters are suddenly so distraught and hurt by the DNC that we're all going to sit at home in November rather than fight our asses off to get a Democrat into the White House. Do you SERIOUSLY think we're going to sit at home and hope for a McCain victory because we don't like how the DNC has treated us? Fuck that! I'm more pissed at my State Legislature for pushing this through than I am at the DNC for doing what they said from the beginning that they would do. And who has a majority in our State Legislature? REPUBLICANS. Republicans who, with the help of complicit Democrats, moved our primary in defiance of national party guidelines despite full knowledge of the consequences. Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna fight even harder to sink McCain in November because of this mess.

[Independent-Voter]

34. I hate to say it, but this FL and MI fiasco is making the Dems look fucking incompetent as hell

[crawfish]

37. If MI and Fla are going to count...

then they need to hold their primaries a second time. Too many people didn't bother to vote because of the DNC rule, and that has, very likely, skewed the results.

Don't blame Obama for a DNC FUBAR.

[intaglio]

39. The states have refused that option

Possibly because they don't think they'll be able to fix the result

[crawfish]

41. Then...screw 'em.

[formernaderite]

42. They have been offered the option to re-vote

The DNC has offered Florida and Michigan a couple ways out in compliance with party rules. First, they could hold second nominating contests, but Democratic leaders in both states reject that idea.

Why not accept this option?

[LisaL]

43. Maybe cause it's gonna cost millions.

[dansolo]

44. Hillary isn't right, but the DNC did make a mistake

I agree that the DNC made a mistake, but Hillary only looks like an opportunist in appealing for the delegates now.