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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:23 PM
Original message
ARG sucks - blah, blah blah (or a general rant on polling)
Yes, I do agree that the American Research Group has not had the best track record.

But that does not mean that the data contained in their surveys needs is irrelevant and useless.

ARG gives us the following value of the likely voters, based on whether they are white, black or Latino. It is consistent with each and every poll we've seen, including 2004 primary exit poll data.

Whites - 53% of the electorate
Blacks - 22% of the electorate
Latinos - 23% of the electorate

Now, let's go in depth about what data ARG recieved from each and every one of these demographics:

Whites- ARG tells us that Clinton leads 51-40 among white voters that were polled. Is that a realistic assumption of what could happen on March 4? Yes it is. He did it in Arizona, winning 40% of white voters in that state. He did it in New Mexico. He's came close, split or won the white vote in almost every state after Super Tuesday.

Blacks - ARG tells us that among black voters, Obama leads them 76-19. Is that a realistic assumption of what could happen on March 4th? Yes it is. Obama has done that repeatedly. In fact, you cannot rule him out getting to about 80-85% of the black electorate, because he has done that many times.

Latinos - ARG tells us that among Latino voters, Obama leads them 44-42. Is that a realistic assumption of what will happen on March 4th? Probably not. Hillary will likely win this demographic. But even if Obama only wins 40% of Latinos, he will can win the state. He won 40% of the Latino vote in Arizona. He won 40% of the Latino vote in New Mexico. It is well within the possiblity that he gets close to that in Texas - or even does better, given that he is going contest Ohio much more than he did New Mexico and Arizona, in addition to being a fixture in that state for two weeks and spending a good deal of money. We've went over this many times - California Latinos are much different than Southwest Latinos, and to project Hillary's success with California latinos over to Texas Latinos is foolhardy.

The problem I have with a good amount of these polls that are still a few weeks away - they tilt the white vote to Hillary by a wide margin. But we know that every time Obama steps in a state, starts campaigning and meeting people, that he makes strides among this demographic. I just can't see Hillary winning the white vote by a 2-1 margin like some of these early polls indicate. It goes against all the trends we've seen over the last few weeks. I am under no delusions that Obama will win the white vote in Texas - he probably won't - but you can be sure that he will come close. And that is all he needs to do to win the state.

So please, don't just say that ARG sucks. explain why ARG sucks. Explain why the poll that you feel does the best job of representing your candidate is right. Enough of these blanket statements about how ARG sucks. They did a survey of the electorate that is well within the possibility of what could happen. Will the Latino vote break Obama's way? Likely not, but it doesn't need to for him to win Texas.

I'd like to say one more thing - Texas is too close to call, and anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional, regardless of any polls two and a half weeks in advance. You just can't project what will happen 2 and a half weeks away when within the next week candidates will start spending money there, meeting people.. and most importantly, changing minds. Who wins Texas will be decided within the next weeks, and polls two and half weeks away are fools gold. This state will be won on the ground.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. ARG isn't reliable.
For examples, see Iowa.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you even read my damn post?

Or even the first line?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Read it again and then repy instead of saying another blanket statement that I specifically condoned in my post.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. "So please, don't just say that ARG sucks. explain why ARG sucks."
I just did.

Did you even read my post?

I know you like to ignore what others say. So whats your next move? Name call? Throw mud? Distort?

What's next?

I'll say it again: ARG isn't reliable.

For example, see Iowa. Hillary lead ARG by a good margin. And got a distant third place finish behind Obama and Edwards. Any more questions or spin?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Explain to me what is wrong with the assumptions from polling that ARG made
They were right in Missouri and California.

Explain to me what is so unrealistic about what I laid out.

Did you ever read my post, or did you just skim?

Stop being a Hillbot and use your freaking brain instead of generalizations that I specifically condoned in my first post.

I agree their track record is checkered. I even said so in my first post

But what is wrong about their polling data? What is unrealistic about their results?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Actually, I think the latino number might be slightly high
They have fewer delegates because they have underperformed on election day. I think the average is qaround 19% over the last few elections.

But I am not from Texas and I don't know how politics works down there. This guy does. http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4937
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. They underperformed in the general electon
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/TX/index.html

According to the 2004 Texas primary exit poll, 24% of that primary's electorate were Latino. I think it'll be somewhere in between, about 22%, while the black electorate from 2004 (21%) will likely get larger.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. It takes more than a minute to read it
So I'd say no.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agreed
The responses from Kerry2008 were exactly the type of responses I was hoping to avoid.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. -
Edited on Fri Feb-15-08 05:09 PM by Bleachers7
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. If You Want I Have Two Links
In a peer reviewed survey ARG came in fifteenth out of sixteenth pollster and in an empirical poll they came in fourteenth of fifteen pollsters...

Would you hire a doctor or lawyer who came in next to last among his peers in a peer reviewed survey or next to last in am empirical survey?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. They are hit and miss.
I said that. I have never denied that. But they have been right at times. They were dead on in Missouri.

I just believe there is some important data you can take out of their polls.

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loveangelc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. if he loses the white and latino vote how can he possibly win tx?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. A large overwhelming black vote
Blacks will likely consist of 21-24% of the electorate, if he dominates the black vote (80-90%), all he needs to do is keep the white vote within 15% of Hillary and the Hispanic vote within 20% of Hillary and he has a great chance to win Texas.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's The Census
Edited on Fri Feb-15-08 05:37 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html


ARG is woefully underrepresenting Hispanics and I don't think Obama and HRC are that close among Latinos in TX either...

But keep convincing yourself ARG is the bomb of pollsters...
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I think the poll that has it at 8 points is correct.
Edited on Fri Feb-15-08 05:46 PM by Bleachers7
There's a poll out there that has it at 8 (IRG or Texas something). It lands in the middle, and that's where I sense the race is.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Sorry, but you are overrepresenting Latinos
2004 Primary Exit Poll data showed their turnout at around 24%. Which is what every poll lately has their % of turnout at.

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Hill_YesWeWill Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. There's only one poll that's reliable, and it's not this one! nt
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-15-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Which one?
It certainly isn't Rasmussen.

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Hill_YesWeWill Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I can't say!
I have to admit, I have some conspiracy theory tendencies, and I worry that if certain people knew which poll is trustworthy it wouldn't be for long? lol
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