The voters in MI and FL knew their votes would not count

[mudesi]

Consequently, seating the MI and FL delegates would be grossly unfair. There is no way to predict the outcomes of these two races had they counted. People might not have bothered to vote because they knew it would be meaningless.

Hillary Clinton is clinging to desperation and it shows.

[shenmue]

1. Wrong.

We know they *do* count. I knew that.

She's not "clinging to desperation." If you bothered to pay attention to the national party itself, you would know that they said the votes do count, even if the people are not allowed on the floor at the convention. The party itself has gone to great lengths to say that the votes count, so you don't know what you're talking about.

Either you don't understand or you're just lying. More of that Obama campaign nastiness that's become old hat now.

[bunnies]

10. all those "uncommitted"s in MI *knew* their vote would count????

You have got to me kidding.

[rinsd]

21. The point of voting uncommited was to allow those delegates to vote at the convention

Don;t take my word for it.

Here's Obama supporters John Conyers & his wife stumping for Obama supporters to vote uncommitted in a radio ad

This is the script of the John and Monica Conyers radio ad, which will be broadcast on Detroit-area stations. Monica Conyers is president pro-tem of the Detroit City Council.

MALE: THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS CONFUSING. I WANT TO VOTE FOR BARACK OBAMA BUT OBAMA'S NAME IS NOT ON THE BALLOT.

FEMALE: THERE IS NO ONE ON THAT BALLOT I WANT TO BE PRESIDENT.

MALE: WELL, THESE FOLKS CAN HELP US. EXCUSE ME, CONGRESSMAN CONYERS AND COUNCILWOMAN CONYERS, WE NEED YOUR HELP.

FEMALE: HOW CAN WE VOTE FOR OBAMA ON TUESDAY?

Rep. Conyers: YOU CAN'T. YOU CANNOT EVEN WRITE IN OBAMA'S NAME. IF YOU DO YOUR VOTE WILL NOT COUNT BECAUSE OBAMA'S CAMPAIGN CHOSE NOT TO PLACE HIS NAME ON THE MICHIGAN BALLOT SO AS NOT TO VIOLATE NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY RULES. BUT YOU CAN VOTE UNCOMMITTED

Councilwoman Conyers: IF AT LEAST 15% OF THE PEOPLE VOTE UNCOMMITTED, THE STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MUST SEND THAT PERCENTAGE OF DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL CONVENTION UNCOMMITTED.

Rep. Conyers: MY WIFE AND I ARE VOTING UNCOMMITTED. WE WILL WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO MAKE SURE THAT UNCOMMITTED DELEGATES GO TO THAT CONVENTION TRULY UNCOMMITTED SO THAT OBAMA CAN COMPETE FOR THEIR VOTE.

MALE: THANK YOU CONGRESSMAN CONYERS AND COUNCILWOMAN CONYERS. I WILL JOIN YOU AND VOTE UNCOMMITTED ON TUESDAY.

FEMALE: ME TOO - AT LEAST MY VOTE WON'T BE WASTED

Councilwoman Conyers: THIS TRUTH IN POLITICS MESSAGE WAS PAID FOR BY FRIENDS OF MONICA CONYERS

[bunnies]

22. That wasn't the argument.

The poster stated that voters knew their votes would count. Delegates voting however they choose is hardly voters votes being counted.

Will the delegates somehow know who the uncommitteds would have voted for? Of course not. Therefore, the uncommitteds votes will NOT count. No way they could. They voted *against* Clinton, rather than *for* anyone.

edit: punctuation

[rinsd]

23. Then why bother if their vote didn't count?

So basically Obama sought their vote under false pretense in MI and told peopel the vote doesn't matter in FL.

I wonder why.

[HockeyMom]

2. You are right

I voted in Florida fully knowing my vote would not count. Rules are rules. Florida should not be allowed to get away with this. One state should not have that much power over all the other states. Florida has a major "ego" problem.

This issue is bigger than Hillary or Obama.

[Little Star]

9. You do know that ,there are rules, to over ride those rules right?

I think you are just not liking that HRC got so many votes in FL.

[spartan61]

24. I voted in FL too knowing my vote would not count.

However, if the property tax issue had not been on the ballot, I probably wouldn't have bothered to vote in an election "that didn't count." I know of so many people who didn't bother to vote, so why should these delegates now be seated? I feel either they should not count at all or have a redo where the votes will count. Changing the rules now just doesn't make any sense.

[AZ Criminal JD]

26. I wonder where you live that you know "of so many people who didn't bother to vote"

Florida had record Democratic turnout. You must live in some isolated area.

[spartan61]

33. No, I don't live in an isolated area and I can't put a #

on the phrase "so many." I live in an area that is "republican hell" so the Dems in the area get together to talk politics. At one of these sessions the conversation was "to vote or not to vote." There were over 50 people at this get together. Not many, I agree, but if Dems were discussing this here, I would have to venture a guess that this was discussed in other parts of Florida as well. Even here on DU several posters have said the same thing. Stop nit-picking.

[Little Star]

3. If you are right then why did so many bother to vote for Hillary?

Why would anyone have bothered if they really thought the DNC & the State Party would not figure out a way to fix the mess they created. If FL & MI don't count in the primary they will certainly not vote Dem in the GE. Lets just give them to McCain right now seems to be your reasoning.

[HockeyMom]

6. I will support and vote for whoever

is the Democratic nominee. I would never cross party lines over something like this.

[Speciesamused]

8. Floridian here..

I know alot of Dems who'
did not vote. Because it
does not count.

[awaysidetraveler]

15. Creepy....

I've lived in Florida, and they refused to allow me to vote in the last election
as I had not lived there long enough (a) and moved there after their 2 month deadline
to vote in that district (b). As I was not a resident in Alaska, I couldn't vote there
either.

However, I also doubt that the election results in Florida can be described as fair.
The entire current problem that they face is the result of republican election judges
deciding DMC election policies.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

17. People went out to vote for a constitutional amendment but I bet

a lot more would have shown up if they had thought it would have counted

[democrat in Tallahassee]

18. People went out to vote for a constitutional amendment but I bet

a lot more would have shown up if they had thought it would have counted

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Sure you can predict

use the 1.7 million democratic votes cast.

There's no reason to believe the system benefitted one candidate over another. It was record turnout for Florida primaries. The results matched polling in the state. Clinton won.

Pissing off two big states in order to protect Iowa and New Hampshire's unfair position is just stupid. We need to win in November.

[rzemanfl]

11. Obama did not campaign in Florida. Look what happened in

the states where he did. There are a lot of people down here who believe that "he's a Muslim" shit. If the people of Florida are more pissed about this than what happened in 2000 and 2004 they deserve McCain and the third Bush term.

[MonkeyFunk]

16. Clinton didn't campaign in Florida, either

And Clinton won a few big states with good sized margins. The Florida results weren't unusual.

[AZ Criminal JD]

27. He campaigned like hell in California

So much for that theory.

[rzemanfl]

30. Obama lost in Calif. by 9.7%, he lost by a lot more in Florida with

Edwards still in. You can't retroactively say "you should have voted and hoped it would count later," we've had way more than enough of that shit in Florida.

[Little Star]

35. We are talking about other Dems here. I find your post insulting.

[rzemanfl]

5. I voted in Florida knowing that the Repuke dominated Florida

legislature (which is a really evil institution) had fucked the Dems and I was voting for Edwards just so there'd be a number reported.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Hillary has the integrity and honesty of a Bill Belichick

She would stop at nothing in order to win!

[Little Star]

36. Nice! Empty name calling again. Geesh!

To your "Hillary has the integrity and honesty of a Bill Belichick" That is a lie! It is also just flamebait. Can we cut this shit out?

[nonconformist]

12. ALL of my friends and family voted in Michigan.

But some people want to disenfranchise them, and the millions of others who voted.

[awaysidetraveler]

13. However, another vote at this point would be quite fair.

Florida and Michigan voters do need to be heard.

[DrDan]

14. you are so far off-track

yes - we knew our votes would not count. But the date of the primary was not the decision of the voters. And the disenfranchisement was not a decision of the voters. Those grabs for power were decisions of the DNC and the state party.

And neither cared a twit what the voters thought.

Screw the voters. That was the thought of both power-grabbing factions. They are no better the the rethugs.

[GoldieAZ49]

19. The ONLY fair way to seat the MI and FL delegates is to divide the delegates

between the candidates, AFTER the primaries

no additional cost and it doesn't affect the outcome of the race.

[MonkeyFunk]

20. That has the same effect

as not counting them at all.

The voters, especially in Florida, expressed their preference. Ignoring it is stupid.

[GoldieAZ49]

25. It has the effect of seating them at the convention

but the penalty for moving their primary up is still a penalty.

What is stupid is accepting the penalty for voting early, and then crying that your being penalized afterwards.

Something the voters need to take up with the party leaders within the state. To late for this election cycle.

You play the game you pay the price.

The DNC didn't disenfranchise those votes, the states did that to their voters, it is their problem.

If they want to spend the money (tax payers money) and redo a primary it is up to them to do it, and fast, if even possible.

[MonkeyFunk]

28. Well there won't be new primaries

that's been ruled out.

Caucuses would be terribly unfair.

The fact is, we know what the voters of Florida wanted. We have exit polls in Michigan that show Clinton would've won there handily, too.

This is like arguing the 2000 Florida election all over again - the right wingers insisted on very technical application of the rules, and reasonable people were saying "COUNT THE FUCKING VOTES!".

The same exact thing is happening now, and it's really disturbing that it's now democrats saying don't let the votes count.

[GoldieAZ49]

31. it is really disturbing to see Hillary and her supporters attempting to steal delegates

shamelessly after the accusations they made in 2000.

There is no way it is seen as anything else but a desperate grab for power via theft, by honest Democrats, Americans and the rest of the world.

That you and the Clintons would rather tear apart the party and loose in November if she isn't the candidate is dispicable.

That you continue to insist that they be given to Hillary shows a total lack of respect for Democracy, and not worth reading or responding to.

There is no reasoning with a monkey, you go on ignore until you evolve.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. And disenfranchising millions of voters

is stupid.

I guarantee if the states involved were Illinois and Georgia, you'd be singing a different tune.

Put me on ignore - who gives a shit?

[BlackVelvet04]

29. ..................

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-w...
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again.

[AJH032]

34. yet, Florida had record primary turnout

explain that.

[indimuse]

37. nice try!!! NOT!"Obama: we were just abiding by the rules that had .

I am a 3rd generation Floridian! And I cast my vote for Hillary! I want the Delegates to be seated...PERIOD! Mr Cry_bama KNEW...KNEW...(didn't he teach election law????)the rules going into this race...NOW to disadvantage Hillary...HW WANT TO CHANGE THEM...."Calling all Obama Cry babies Nation Wide!!" This is BS!!! I say...after this primary...IF you feel so strong about the Super Del issue, CHANG THEM! But DON'T Change them NOW to BENEFIT MR> OBAMA!!!!WTF!


http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/04/cnn-political-ticker-am_04.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story

It was in this part of the city that an eager reform Democrat by the name of Abner Mikva first entered elected office in the 1950s. And here a young, brash minister

named Jesse Jackson ran Operation Breadbasket, leading marchers who sought to pressure grocery chains to hire minorities.

Palmer served the district in the Illinois Senate for much of the 1990s. Decades earlier, she was working as a community organizer in the area when Obama was

growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia. She risked her safe seat to run for Congress and touted Obama as a suitable successor, according to news accounts and

interviews.

But when Palmer got clobbered in that November 1995 special congressional race, her supporters asked Obama to fold his campaign so she could easily retain her

state Senate seat.

Obama not only refused to step aside, he filed challenges that nullified Palmer's hastily gathered nominating petitions, forcing her to withdraw.

"I liked Alice Palmer a lot. I thought she was a good public servant," Obama said. "It was very awkward. That part of it I wish had played out entirely differently."

His choice divided veteran Chicago political activists.

"There was friction about the decision he made," said City Colleges of Chicago professor emeritus Timuel Black, who tried to negotiate with Obama on Palmer's

behalf. "There were deep disagreements."

Had Palmer survived the petition challenge, Obama would have faced the daunting task of taking on an incumbent senator. Palmer's elimination marked the first of

several fortuitous political moments in Obama's electoral success: He won the 2004 primary and general elections for U.S. Senate after tough challengers imploded

when their messy divorce files were unsealed.

In a recent interview, Obama granted that "there's a legitimate argument to be made that you shouldn't create barriers to people getting on the ballot."

But the unsparing legal tactics were justified, he said, by obvious flaws in his opponents' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.

"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.



"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled.


Rules are RULES !!!!!