2 high level Clinton supporters remain on message re racist phrase: "shuck and jive"

[Divernan]

Two high profile Clinton supporters, Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell (on Feb. 13) and New York State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo (Jan 8) just happened to use the same arcane and offensive and demeaning racist term in disucussing Obama's campaign.

The term is "shuck and jive". As detailed in a January 11th, Newsday.com article by Erik German,

www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-uscuom115533466jan11.0.3011306.story

The 1994 book "Juba to Jive, a Dictionary of African-American Slang," says "shuck and jive" dates back to the 1870s and was an "originally southern 'Negro' expression for clowning, lying, pretense."

Temple University's Nathaniel Norment,Jr., a professor of African-American studies, said the phrase is inappropriate because it springs from an ugly period of our past. It refers to how "black people had to behave in the presence of white people to survive. You had to shuck and jive or buck dance; you're putting on an act. In the context of a presidential election, it's a very derogatory thing to say."

BY ERIK GERMAN | [e-mail]
January 11, 2008

ALBANY - If you asked the bloggers yesterday, State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo stepped on a rhetorical land mine when he used the racially charged phrase "shuck and jive" while discussing the Democratic presidential primary in a recent radio interview.

Speaking Tuesday to the New York Post's Fred Dicker, whose show airs on Albany's Talk 1300 radio station, Cuomo said of the early primaries: "It's not a TV-crazed race. Frankly, you can't buy your way through."

He added later, "You have to sit down with 10 people in a living room. You can't shuck and jive at a news conference; you can't just put off reporters, because you have real people looking at you, saying 'answer the question.'"

Fast forward to Ed Rendell's meeting with the editorial board of Pittsburgh's Post-Gazette last week when he observed re Senator Obama's presidential primary campaign that "You've got conservative whites here ... who are not ready to vote for an African-American candidate." (Now it's true there are conservative whites in PA, who would not vote for any black - they are primarily the GOP dominating the center of the state, but Ed -the twice elected Jewish governor didn't qualify his blanket labeling of his constituents as racist. Once that remark began circulating in the blogosphere, Rendell (who had publicly endorsed Clinton prior to that Pittsubrgh meeting, was inundated with outraged accusations of race-baiting. So here he comes to "apologize". However,his apology was more offensive than his original self-serving (he hopes to be Clinton's VP, or at least in the cabinet) remark.

Feb. 15th Headline: Rendell offers his defense on Obama race remark
www.post-gazette.com/pg/08045/857368-176.stm

What's so frustrating about this is that in this business, if you give an honest answer, you get skewered for it," Mr. Rendell said. "If you give the politically correct answer, the press says, 'Aw, that guy, he's just a shucker and jiver and never gives a straight answer.' I get in trouble for telling the truth."
(end of quote)
Having lived in the south until I was nine years old, I knew it was a racist term - the kind uttered by rednecks. If I would ever have said it my Mom would have washed my mouth out with soap. I have not heard it since the 1940's. I certainly never heard it once I moved out of the south. Never heard it spoken in Chicago, or Baltimore or Milwaukee or LA or Sacramento or Cape Kennedy or Pittsburgh or Phillie. Rendell & Cuomo did NOT grow up in the south. It's not a Yiddish expression, or a good fellas expression. Where did they come up with it? Any why? At this point Rendelll owes an apology and explanation for his first apology.

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Thet's some spin on Rendell

The local papers and TV news picked the statement to death. End result: Rendell actually was talking about the way the middle of Pennsylvania is like Alabama. The statement was like talking about how racist the Klan was -- in the context of a news cycle centered on the Klan. The rest of the interview is worth reading by partisans of all stripes who like wonky political analysis.

The only Black officials who have been quoted expressing disapproval are J. Whyatt Mondesire, head of the local NAACP, and Lynn Swann, Rendell's Republican opponent in the last election. Both made their remarks within hours, IIRC. If I missed any, I'm sure they will be posted along with as much invective for me as the mods will allow.

Cuomo's statement was a stupendously dumb-ass wise-ass remark, and it's been used for ammunition for over a month. But Ed Rendell's remarks weren't even racist. Spin them any way you want, but Rendell is going to end up looking like a realist and not a racist.

And Ed Rendell got me medical treatment, so lay off the "Rendell is a Hillary-Nazi" stuff.

--p!

[Divernan]

2. Wow, I never called Rendell the N word - but you just did!

As to Rendell getting medical treatment, lucky you that he helped you individually. Because Rendell has put a plan in the works to strip all retired state workers of their solid BC/BS/Medicare health insurance and substitute a jive-ass private "Medicare Advantage" program, because the private insurer promises to charge the state less money.

Now let me see - how can they do that? All the same old stuff you saw in Sicko. The more claims they turn down, the more money they make. And you can only go to a short list of approved doctors - one reason the list is so short is that Medicare Advantage pays even less than Medicare, so many doctors won't accept people with that insurance as patients. So say goodbye to your trusted primary care physician who knows your health history and your family's health history. And don't think about going to some fancy,schmancy specialist because they damn well don't need to cut their fees below the Medicare approved rates to keep their waiting rooms full. Rendell also agreed that the retirees would not be able to appeal to Medicare - all appeals are limited to within the private company. Of course I'm sure all those frail oldsters will eventuallybe able to file private suits or something. But wait, they're too frail and sick to fight the insurance companies and could well die before the suits were tried - since they're not getting the necessary treatments to keep them alive. Now do you suppose that the Medicare Advantage company is giving Rendell one huge campaign donation - which he can pass on to Clinton, thus ensuring him a nice appointment? Or are you so incredibly naive as to believe there was no major quid pro quo for an endorsement from the Governor of a state which is make or break for her campaign!?!?!

What else is Rendell doing? Oh, just changing the prescription plan so that costs to the retirees will increase 33%. Food or medicine? Hmmmm. Tough call, especially with the price of food shooting through the roof. And you know a lot of these retirees didn't make that much money, so their pensions are very small and they are lucky if they get a 2% COLA every five years.

And what else is Rendell doing? Well he made all these arrangements without the courtesy of telling the retirees' UNION about any of it, and when they tried to meet with him to BEG him not to do it, he sent some snotty young staffers out to say that Mr. Governor had no interest in discussing the matter with them and he would not consider any modifications or changes.

I'd expect this union-bashing from a GOP Governor, but not from a governor the unions busted their butts for to get elected. But hey! as long as he took care of you - let's call him a saint.

On edit: I am glad for you that you are getting the medical care/treatment you need - whatever that may be. Every citizen is entitled to that, and in every civilized country but the US, they get it. But I remain appalled at what Rendell is doing to strip retired state workers of their medical care.

[Divernan]

4. By the way you quote Rendell as talking about the middle of PA being like Alabama & the Klan

Got a link to the Klan comments? Or can you provide an exact quote? Analogizing Central Pennsylvanians to the Klan would be even worse than the articles I've seen about that discussion with the editorial board. I worked in state govt. in Harrisburg for 10 years. We had to deal with the annual influx of Hell's Angels re the helmet law, but I never came across any incidents involving the Klan in PA.

[Exultant Democracy]

3. This blatent racism is repulsive.

[UALRBSofL]

6. I find Misogyny repulsive as well

And when the MSM shows there hatred or strong prejudice against Hillary I don't see Obama supporters getting upset about that, they just laugh it off. So therefore don't expect me to add my support to this thread.

[Exultant Democracy]

13. Well I find misogyny repulsive, and I find your identity politics pretty repulsive too

seem like it is just a few steps above flat out bigotry. It is clear that you have wrapped Clinton's run together with the cause of feminism wrong or right I'm not qualified to judge that, but the fact that you are dismissive of obvious racism because of the "identity aspect" of this is pretty sad. Funny they taught use the golden rule when I was in elementary school, but it go to show how our education system has slipped.

[Divernan]

21. MAJOR difference between MSM comments and high level supporters' comments

A comparable situation to:

(A) Rendell (white guy/governor level) saying people in his state wouldn't vote for a black, followed by a reference to someone who lies as being "he's just a shucker and a jiver and never gives a straight answer,

would be
(B) a governor telling the editorial board of a major state newspaper that "People in my state aren't ready to vote for a woman" and then "apologizing" for that sexist comment by saying something like: "Oh, didn't mean to offend. I wasn't thinking clearly - must have been my time of the month!"
And nobody, whether a governor supporting Clinton, or the MSM, has made such an offensive statement.

And notice how clever Rendell was - in case not everyone would catch the negative connotation of "shucker and jiver" he added the definition "never gives a straight answer."

[jackson_dem]

15. What was racist about a guy whose staff were threatened by neo-Nazis saying racism exists?

In the politics of hope do we adopt the rethug view and just "hope" racism away by pretending it doesn't exist?

[Barack_America]

5. Keep it up, Ed and we'll hopefully soon be rid of you...

As for trying to provoke your citizens to fall for this race-baiting...well, we all just recently graduated from 'Race Baiting 101', taught by Professor Bill Clinton, so we ain't fallin' for this.

[UALRBSofL]

8. No, we all learned gender baiting

From Barack Obama 101.

[Barack_America]

9. I guess everyone has their pet topics. n/t

[JimGinPA]

12. That's A Little Over The Top Don't You Think?

Why inject venom into a thread when you obviously don't have anything relevant to add to the discussion?

[jackson_dem]

14. He said the truth and he has lived it

Rendell had to shut down one of his campaign offices because of threats from neo-nazis because he is Jewish. He knows what I know. No messiah can "transcend" the heart of KKK types.

[Barack_America]

16. That is not what this thread is about....

This is about Rendell's own use of "Shuck n Jive" in order to explain his previous comments and after the uproar when Cuomo used the phrase.

This thread is about his own actions and motivations, not somebody else's.

[jackson_dem]

17. Is he stupid?

Why would he say it on his own volition after what happened to Cuomo? Why would the campaign tell him to do it? It was important in costing them South Carolina and several other states. Why repeat it? Maybe "shuck and jive" does not mean what Obama's cronies claim it means in modern usage? Would a restaurant in Dallas have a racial slur as its name? http://dallas.citysearch.com/profile/9648954/dallas_tx/shuck_n_jive.html I found that when googling "shuck jive". Also:

"To shuck and jive" originally referred to the intentionally misleading words and actions that African-Americans would employ in order to deceive racist Euro-Americans in power, both during the period of slavery and afterwards. The expression was documented as being in wide usage in the 1920s, but may have originated much earlier.

"Shucking and jiving" was a tactic of both survival and resistance. A slave, for instance, could say eagerly, "Oh, yes, Master," and have no real intention to obey. Or an African-American man could pretend to be working hard at a task he was ordered to do, but might put up this pretense only when under observation. Both would be instances of "doin' the old shuck 'n jive."

Today, the expression has expanded somewhat from earlier usage, and is now sometimes used to mean "talking pure baloney," "goofing off," or "goofing around." The original meaning of deceit often remains, however.

* 1 year ago

Source(s):
I teach some African-American Studies courses.

* Report It

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006051720041

[Divernan]

26. Cuomo got by with it & Clinton won New York, so they're repeating it in PA

Your OWN post confirms the fact that this phrase means to deceive or lie. You cite some anonymous blog entry where an anonymous poster claims to teach some African American study courses. He probably does. His definition is pretty accurate and matches up with the definitions in the OP and throughout the thread. You even highlighted "meaning of deceit". And clever Ed included the definiton himself, for the many PA constituents who did not know the insulting nature of "shuck and jive."

Rendell: 'Aw, that guy, he's just a shucker and jiver and NEVER GIVES A STRAIGHT ANSWER.'

I added the emphasis of all caps. Bill Clinton's racist comments that so offended many people did not include the term "shuck and jive" - being from Arkansas he would be hard pressed to deny he was well aware of the racist, defamatory nature of the term.

[jackson_dem]

40. When the controversy was at its peak folks posted more credible sources

I am not going to research "shuck and jive" after all of that.

Lots of politicians don't give straight answers. That is what they were talking about.

What would be the rationale for it? And why do it two months before the PA primary? Before screaming racist conspiracy Obamites should examine whether a rationale exists for it.

Cuomo didn't get by with it. He is now done as far as moving up the political ranks is concerned. He already had trouble with the black community, as Charles Rangel explained in his book, because he ran against a black candidate for governor a couple years ago.

[Raejeanowl]

7. Disturbing

I'd like to add something a little more contextual to this that the article does not make abundantly clear, for those who aren't familiar with the term. I personally don't have a firm handle on what "buck dancing" means, but I'd hazard a guess that there is a distinction that falls a little more on the deferential and victimized side than the companion term cited.

My personal introduction to "shucking and jiving" came from a (then) 75-year-old African American professional man, a gentleman who had grown up dirt-poor in the deep South,(served in a segregationally humbled position but) ultimately achieved distinguished service in the Navy during WWII, and retired to earn his college degree in his 50s. Much of his later life was devoted toward remedial education and job development for the disadvantaged residents in our town. He was a personal mentor, and I miss him very much.

Having known real hunger, hardship and crushing discrimination, he did not have a great deal of patience with what he saw as the socially disruptive mind games being played by a more privileged younger generation. He was especially disparaging about what he considered to be vanity or convenience Afro-centrism, and abhorred the misuse of Affirmative Action in particular to promote what he felt in some cases were unworthy individuals qualified only by their darkness. He personally suffered for having many times been called an "Oreo" and an "Uncle Tom" by black community members when he did not adopt the solidarity position on local issues. (So if anyone wonders where some of my hard-headed qualities were cradled...)

According to my friend, shucking and jiving had more to do with getting one over on the "master" (whether that be your father or boss or whomever you were obliged to serve) when you hadn't truly done the work, or fishing for sympathy and recompense when you hadn't suffered a deprivation. His use of it dovetailed more with an opportunistic or "lazy n*****" stereotype than a victim of injustice, so in that context, its repeated invocation by Cuomo and then Rendell in regard to Obama's campaign is especially remarkable and inflammatory.

[KittyWampus]

10. posts like yours are like little nuggets of gold amidst the muck

thanks for the insight.

[Divernan]

31. Thank you for your very meaningful and informative post.

nt

[ArkySue]

11. You all need to get a grip!

Explain just how "shuck and jive" is racist. Do you even know what the term means?? I doubt it. It just sounds "racist" somehow so everyone screams "RACIST! RACIST! RACIST!!!"

Look the words up, and read the definitions.

Here's another one you can be outraged by...
Niggardly. gasp!!!

[boppers]

19. You have a niggardly understanding....

... of the history of racist phrases and their stereotypes.

If the Clintons accused Barak of "always being a tad late", that's a "Black People's Time" stereotype.
If the Clintons accused Barak of "always being a flashy dresser", that's a "Jim Dandy" stereotype.

They seem to have settled (for the time being) on being "all talk, no work", aka "Shuck and Jive". They ignore his 800+ pieces of legislature, and try to play him as lazy black person with no accomplishments.

I'm not buying it, and judging by the election results, neither are a lot of people.

[jackson_dem]

20. Obama's passed one bill and that was to rename a post office

You ignore the evolution of "shuck and jive". It is no longer exclusively racist like it was decades ago.

[TexasObserver]

23. You're right. They continually speak in code words and terms that are implicit.

It's to be expected of Dixiecrats, though, so consider the source.

[Divernan]

29. Welcome to DU, such as it is at the moment

Thanks for your relevant examples of racial stereotypes.

Recall what Senator Biden said back in early 2007 about Obama being the FIRST black candidate to be clean and intelligent?

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/

What a terrible insult to every other African-American who's ever been elected to office.

[TexasObserver]

22. Yes, shuck and jive is racist, particularly when used about a black man.

Shame on you. Are you sure you don't want to apologize to the millions of blacks on whose votes half our Democratic office holders rely?

[Zodiak]

24. It helps to read the thread before posting

What you ask to be explained has already been explained on this thread.

I find it ironic that someone who asks everyone to look up words and definitions didn't even bother to read the tread.

[boppers]

18. Shuck and Jive

'Shuck and Jive' attacks are the ones the Clintons really seem to favor, and the ones echoed here (on DU) the most. For those not familiar with the term, the OP doesn't quite do it justice. It comes from a time when slaves realized they they could make their lives suck less if they worked less hard (shucking, as in corn) when they weren't being watched, but worked hard (or talked about working hard (jive)), later, or when the "master" watched.

Multiple nuances developed, but they all relate back to the stereotype of a dichotomy between "talking big" about doing work, and actually doing work. The stereotypical presumption is that black people talk a big game, but their work does not match their talk.

You know, like being 'An Empty Suit'. Or 'Spouting Platitudes'. Or 'Having Meager Accomplishments'. Or 'solutions, not speeches'.

....Or any one of the hundreds of other racist code words and phrases being used to imply that Obama is all talk, and no work, because he's black.

[Divernan]

30. Welcome to DU, such as it is - used to be a much friendlier place

Hopefully emotions will level out once the primary is decided.
Thanks for your relevant examples of nuanced racist stereotypes.

Recall what Senator Biden said back in early 2007 about Obama being the FIRST black candidate to be clean and intelligent?

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/

What a terrible insult to every other African-American who's ever been elected to office. Imagine a male Democratic Senator saying of a female Democratic senator: "I mean, you got the first mainstream female who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking gal."

[NashVegas]

25. I'm Sorry But You're Just Going to Have to Deal With It - Obama's People Opened This Can of Worms

By going into black communities and telling people they'd be wrong to vote for one of the white candidates.

ps - when the Republicans start up with their shit, they aren't going to apologize, well - the candidate might, but RW blogosphere sure as hell won't.

[Divernan]

27. We deal with it by calling out the people who say these things.

nt

[NashVegas]

28. On an Internet Message Board? Good Luck, There

..

[NorthernSpy]

38. frankly, that sounded kind of paranoid...

By going into black communities and telling people they'd be wrong to vote for one of the white candidates.

Wow, nice tricky wording you got there.

Yeah, I guess asking people to vote for Barack Obama is the same as asking them not to vote for Hillary Clinton, and Hillary Clinton is white, sooo...


:eyes:

ps - when the Republicans start up with their shit, they aren't going to apologize, well - the candidate might, but RW blogosphere sure as hell won't.

Thing is, we expect it -- from them.

[Tactical Progressive]

32. I always took it as a synonym for 'bob and weave', only hipper

Don't remember ever using either term, but I certainly never thought of either phrase as being inherently racist in the least.

I thought "jive" was just part of the language now, if not a little dated.
When did it become racist, or was it always?

Were the Bee-Gees racist? I don't remember any uproar.

[psychopomp]

33. Whoop! There it is

The knives are really starting to come out, aren't they?
:mad:

[K Gardner]

34. There are NO coincidences in the Clinton Campaign. We've already seen this tactic used, we'll

see it again and again, as long as they can get away with it and even if they have to use sacrificial lambs to get their dirty work done.

[Evergreen Emerald]

35. yes, but when Obama uses code words--it is a coincidence, right?

Oh brother what a double standard. Attack every syllable that is uttered from anything that is anywhere near Clinton.

Ignore everything Obama does (and is afraid) to do.

[ginnyinWI]

36. My guess is that they figure they've lost the black vote anyway...

so if putting out an offensive phrase gets her more votes from middle-class white people...

[NorthernSpy]

39. the Clintons view the Democratic Party as collateral damage in the pursuit of their ambitions...

During the eight years of Clinton's presidency, the party withered into a state of atrophy. Dean only just recently turned that around, and oh look -- here come the Clintons, fixing to blow it all up again.

[MethuenProgressive]

37. More Swiftboating of Clinton on Race by the Race Baiting Obama Camp.

:puke: