Obama: TITHE even if bankrupt

[amborin]

never mind fighting the bankruptcy law: it's okay, as long as it doesn't prevent tithing

religion above all


American Bankruptcy Institute Journal

25-9 ABIJ 8

November 2006

Legislative Highlights

Congressional Campaigning Leaves Tithing, Trustee Fee and Judges Salary Increases Hanging

Ann vom Eigen, Deputy Executive Director and General Counsel, [e-mail]

<*8> The House and Senate sprinted to recess for the Nov. 7 elections without completing action on several pending clarifications to bankruptcy law. Bills covering issues ranging from the treatment of tithing to an increase in chapter 7 trustee fees and reforms pertaining to the netting of certain financial transactions were left unfinished.

Early in the morning of Sept. 30, 2006, the Senate passed S. 4044, the Religious Liberty and Charitable Donation Clarification Act of 2006, just minutes after the House recessed. The bipartisan bill, sponsored by Sens. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Barack Obama (D-Ill.), was drafted in response to an Aug. 28, 2006, decision in the Northern District of New York, In re Diagostino. The Senate bill clarifies that chapter 13 debtors with above-median incomes can continue to tithe.

In the Diagostino decision, the court found that above-median income debtors in chapter 13 repayment plans could not deduct charitable contributions as expenses in calculating their disposable income under the means test. The legislation emphasizes Senate concern about this issue and follows up on a letter sent to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in mid-September by the three key Republican authors of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (BAPCPA), Sens. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) and Hatch. The letter cited congressional intent expressed in the Religious Liberty and Charitable Donation Protection Act of 1998 (PL 105-183) and the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (PL 109-8). The letter instructed the attorney general to specifically direct chapter 13 trustees not to object to the inclusion of reasonable charitable contributions in a repayment plan if the contribution met the requirements of the law. The senators also directed the attorney general to "file court papers in appropriate cases to correct this misinterpretation, as well as issue mandatory guidelines.

[amborin]

1. separation of church and state?????

Barack Obama, Politicians Need Not Abandon Religion, USA TODAY, July 10, 2006, at 11A. "Abraham Lincoln, William Jennings Bryan, Martin Luther King Jr. -- indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history -- were not only motivated by faith, they also used religious language to argue for their cause." Id.

[chascarrillo]

6. Read the bill you're criticizing.

Just an idea.

This bill includes all kinds of regular charitable contributions. I donate money to non-religious charities every paycheck. This bill ensures that this is not included as part of the total disposable income I have (i.e., makes it easier to keep on giving to charities).

[amborin]

8. i did read the bill

it does not set aside donations for all charities at all...

only religious tithing

[chascarrillo]

15. You didn't read the bill. It specifically allows for charitable contributions.

Here's the definition in the bill that the bill we're discussing amends:

"(ii) for charitable contributions (that meet the definition of “charitable contribution” under section 548 (d)(3) <1> to a qualified religious or charitable entity or organization (as defined in section 548 (d)(4)) in an amount not to exceed 15 percent of gross income of the debtor for the year in which the contributions are made;"

Can't get much clearer than that.

[amborin]

22. charitable donations are just a cynical cover for religious donations

[shadowknows69]

2. Hey, if people want to give their money to the hierarchy of their religion so be it

But frankly shouldn't it be the church helping its members at that point? I think any clergy worth his cloth would probably give some poor souls a pass.

[amborin]

9. sure, people can give their money

to the church

but this legislation concerns something different

it's giving privilege to contributions to relious organizations, by saying the bankrupty law terms do not apply to religious contributions

what if i want to donate to the sierra club? sorry, not exempt under this law....only donations to the church

[lligrd]

3. Bush Talks To God

and Hillary had faith in Bill. Good grief - enough already!

[Window]

5. LOL!

Peace:thumbsup:

[chascarrillo]

4. Making allowance for freedom of religion is a bad thing?

Basically, this bill included regular charitable contributions in the equation as to how much the court could order that you pay when under bankruptcy. I don't see anything wrong with that. The bill passed with unanimous consent, so no one else apparently did, either.

[amborin]

7. religious donations

are given privilege

if bankrupt, under the bankruptcy law terms, one can't continue to dontate to environmental causes

so---why be allowed to set aside money for religious causes?

this is preferential treatment for religion.....

[chascarrillo]

16. If it applied only to churches or religious charities, you're right. However, it doesn't.

Non-religious charities are specifically included in the exemption.

[AP]

18. Would you prefer that MBNA could get in line ahead of the NAACP?

[amborin]

11. making allowance to privilege religion

don't conflate this with freedom of religion

this bill says giving to church is exempt under bankrupty law, while giving to sierra club isn't

the law should apply universally and equally....not privilege religion

[alteredstate]

10. Have you noticed

that no one voted "no" on the bill?

[amborin]

12. ha ha ha

fact no one voted no means zip

let's face it, we live in a nation where separation of church and state is fast eroded

[NashVegas]

13. The NY Judge Made a Logical, Sensible, Decision

And Obama teamed up with Orrin Hatch to legislate it away?

Tithe is not an expense, it's a voluntary gift.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. a tithe *can *represent a personal obligation for some-

which is not the same as a gift. It is the act of 'voluntarily' giving a portion of ones 'possessions' for the good of many. It would be important for the court to stay OUT of this - either mandating that a person pay- or denying them the right to tithe without penalty if we really honor the law as established in the bill of rights "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof".

Tithes are hot-button issues within churches as well. I think that the ruling leaving a "tithe" out of the mix is very appropriate.

peace~

[Adelante]

14. Where is your link? nt

[Barack_America]

17. Wow. So it's time for the pots and pans already?

This bodes well for the general election, IMO.

[K Gardner]

19. Yes, because we've already thrown the Kitchen Sink in there.

[LiberalFighter]

21. Screw Hatch and Obama on this bill

If people are going thru bankruptcy they should not be making contributions to religious or qualified charities.

[pdxmom]

23. You will also need to screw the entire Congress, both House and Senate,

which would include Clinton:

Sep 30, 2006: This bill passed in the Senate by Unanimous Consent. A record of each representative's position was not kept.
Dec 6, 2006: This bill passed in the House of Representatives by voice vote. A record of each representative's position was not kept.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-4044

[amborin]

25. not as bad as drafting the bill

lots of things get passed, without members scrutinizing them

that's one of the bad things about the system

but mindless passing something---perhaps getting thrown off by the trick word "charitable" contributions is a lot less the nefarious act of authoring that legislation

[LiberalFighter]

27. Yes... too bad we can't elect enough members that are not church members

[amborin]

24. the judge's ruling was correct

and for Obama to buddy up with Orrin Hatch to get exemptions for religious and "charitable" exemptions is just wrong

calling it "charitable" constributions doesn't fool anyone

it's just a way for Orrin Hatch to allow his constituents to continue to give huge donations to the church

and Obama went along with this

[grantcart]

26. Are you saying that Hillary is against this? This is news that the

Catholic Hispanics in Texas should be informed of.