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Hillary, just keep on pushing for those Florida delegates. Obama will benefit if you do.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:32 AM
Original message
Hillary, just keep on pushing for those Florida delegates. Obama will benefit if you do.
It continues to be an issue she will put front and center.

I think that might be a very good idea. I think she should continue to push. I think her supporters should continue to try to tear down the legitimacy of the DNC and its chairman, Howard Dean. I think it should be continued.

I think that would be the best thing ever to happen to the Obama campaign. Let Hillary keep pushing for Florida delegates to count for her. Let it continue. Obama will benefit.

Let the games begin.

Florida Democrats were not bullied, they were not victims as they would like for you to believe. They were totally and completely complicit. They were not in fear of their futures because of something on the ballot about paper trails. It was their baby, and they were on board.

Now they are whining.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527



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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. DNC uber alles
We get it.

And of course all things work the will of the Obamassiah!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. DNC above all?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 12:23 PM by madfloridian
No. Actually not. Above all that Hillary is pulling stuff to hurt others in the party, a whole committee is under attack, and that is not healthy.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. No, you didn't get it right
But do carry on. I've always found such antics amusing. I'll grab some popcorn.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hillary's antics right now are going to backfire. Enjoy your popcorn.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh, right.
I forgot. If one is in favor having Floridians' votes count, then one MUST be pro-Hillary. There's no other possible position, after all. Hard for me to keep track of those stories y'all tell yourselves.

Tough ol' world, ain't it? :toast:
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Don't you get it?
St. Howard of Burlington wants it this way. Therefore, it is the one true, holy, catholic and aspostolic answer.

Fuck 1.7 million florida Dems who voted - they're apostates.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's true that we're apostates
But our personal hygiene is above reproach.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. FL voters should take their anger out on their FL Dem. officials...the ones who scheduled
the primary early, despite the Dem. Party decreeing it would not allow it and would not seat the delegates if they did that. The DNC explained why.

The FL Dem. officials did it, anyway. The Dem. Party had previously informed the FL officials that they wouldn't allow it, so their decision not to the seat the delegates was a foregone conclusion.

If the FL voters are angry, they need to look to their local politicians.

If the DNC changes the rules and its decisions three-fourths of the way through the campaign, their decisions will no longer be worth anything. And a large portion of the Dem. Party will leave the Dem. Party, at least this year...and the Dem. nominee, whoever it is, will lose the General Election.

It is very simple. Abide by the deicisons and agreements made months ago: MI and FL will hold its primaries early, and the Dem. Party will not count its delegates. All candidates agreed.

I thought it was silly to come to that agreement. But that's what all the entities decided to do. It's a done deal.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. BOTH sides got into this stupid game of chicken
thinking the other side would back down.

It was a ridiculous pissing match. But we're past it now, and a blind adherence to "the rules" does nothing if it loses us the GE in November because of Howard Dean's pride.

It needs to be resolved, and disenfranchising two large states is not the right resolution.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I don't see a problem seating Florida's. Everyone was on the ballot.
Michigan would have to be a re-do.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Taking a vote w/o campaigning heavily favors the "name recognition" candidate, and you know it. No.
No count. No delegates. It was a foregone conclusion that HRC would win FL w/o campaigning by the other delegates. She had the biggest name recognition, the state had early voting (which also heavily favored Clinton). That is the ONLY reason the Clintons have changed their position on this.

There is no need for any re-do. The delegates will not be counted, and so said the Democratic Party months ago, and the candidates agreed.

I would feel this way no matter WHO was leading in the votes.

You don't change the rules AFTER the game is well under way, and you want to change them to FAVOR yourself.

It should bother Clinton supporters that she changed her position on this, as well as the Nevada special voting precincts for casino workers. Has your candidate no shame? No ethics? Doesn't it bother you that someone who might be President is unethical? It sure seemed to bother you the last 7 years. So...it's not the behavior that disgusted you. It's only taht the disgusting behavior was by a Republican instead of a Democrat? Is that it?

The Michigan and FL delegates will not be seated. Or tens of thousands, perhaps millions, of voters will not vote in the General Election for a Democrat. Democracy is democracy. If a group of people want to get together and crown their own President, t hen they don't need voters to stamp approval. They can do it on their own.

Can you say President McCain? I can.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. blind allegiance to the rules... hah haha, you're funny.
you're right too!

stupid rules. who needs them.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. It's a rule
to protect the primacy of Iowa and New Hampshire - a primacy most people here abhor.

If it loses us the GE, what good does it do us?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. BINGO! That's exactly it.
Anyone who witnessed madfloridian's antics during the last primary season knows why she has been for months posting several threads a day about this issue: it's an affront to St. Howard's dignity. Disenfranchising a few hundred thousand Democrats now (and giving up two of the largest states in November) is a small price to pay for something so precious, I guess.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. QC you are absolutely right. SEE HERE madfloridian should take note! ! ! !
Florida Law, DNC Rules, Punishments, and Primaries
by dhonig, Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 05:26:00 PM EST

There is a tremendous amount of information floating around here, much of it wrong, a lot of it right, about Florida and its primary. One very good, but incomplete, diary by RenaRF can be found HERE, entitled "Not Like This." I agree with many of RenaRF's sentiments, but am discouraged by a few missing facts, and by the MANY misunderstandings in the comments. I will attempt, as dispassionately as possible, to add a bit of information to the conversation.

First, Florida's actual LAW, as it stands today. F.S. 103.101 actually sets the date of the Presidential Primary for both parties. To have a new primary would require an act of the Legislature and the signature of the Governor, and both are Republican.

Cross-posted at the Big Orange Blog, so if you want people there to see it this is the place to recommend and comment.



The law states, in relevant part:

(1) Each political party other than a minor political party shall, on the last Tuesday in January in each year the number of which is a multiple of 4, elect one person to be the candidate for nomination of such party for President of the United States or select delegates to the national nominating convention, as provided by party rule.

What does this mean? Well, the easy part is that it means Florida's Democratic Party can not hold another primary, in person or by mail. But what else does it mean? Can Florida's Democratic Party hold caucuses, or a mail-in "straw poll"? Well, that's a tough call. On the one hand, the LAW says the party SHALL have a primary and SHALL elect one person to be the candidate, but there's a caveat, "as provided by party rule." That creates a conflict in the statute, since the statute requires a primary, but the Party rules permit caucuses. The Supreme Court, in California Democratic Party v. Jones, et al., described the supremacy of parties in primaries, under a freedom of association analysis.

Conclusion? Caucuses, or something that looks like them, are probably okay. Ditto straw polls.

But what actually happened? Lots of people have talked about "punishing" Florida, as if it were a 3 year old to be put in timeout. But it is not. It is a tremendously important State filled with millions of dedicated Democrats. How did we get here?

Well, it started with both parties in the legislature looking to move the primary date up some, to have some relevance. Both parties were behind it. No question about it. But then something funny happened. The Republican-controlled legislature not only picked an early date, it picked a REALLY early date, January 29, 2008. From there, let the Florida Democratic Party tell you what happened:


Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party's efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority's throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.



WHOA! It looks like they had the authority, but also had an obligaton. How did they establish a procedure that was (a) broadly representative, (b) reflected the State's preference, and (c) involved broad participation? Simple answer. They didn't. NOT. AT. ALL. But what is this "subsection (b) of this section C"? Funny you should ask, because it doesn't really apply. You see, the "failure" falls under subsection (2), as noted above:


Nothing in these rules shall prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing sanctions the Committee deems appropriate with respect to a state which the Committee determines has failed or refused to comply with these rules, where the failure or refusal of the state party is not subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of this section C. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: reduction of the state's delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of the state's temporary and permanent members to the Standing Committees; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of guests, VIP and other passes/tickets to the National Convention and related functions; assignment of location of the state's delegates and alternates in the Convention hall; and assignment of the state's housing and other convention related facilities.

In other words, the complete ban should not have happened. What should have happened? Funny you ask, because there is a rule about that, too:


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

Let's break that one up, okay?


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law

Okay, Florida meets that requirement. The date change was a legislative act.


but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary,

Was there an investigation? I don't remember one. Were there hearings? Nope. Not one.


determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules

Is this the stumbling block? There is no question Florida Democrats tried to amend the statute to bring it into compliance with the rule. They lost. However, you might say, the Democrats then voted for the law. Yes, they did, but they were also voting for paper trails. Is the DNC really saying the Democrats, who tried to amend the statute and lost, should have voted against paper trails? Gosh I hope not. This is about one election. Paper trails are about EVERY election. Also, having failed to hold an investigation, they were not in a position to make such a decision, were they?

and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules,

Tell me, if you could, how you act to "prevent legislative changes" OTHER than to attempt to amend the legislation? Really, isn't that what they did, and failed?


the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

"Legislative changes," as is AMENDMENTS.

By all appearances, the DNC Rules Committee did not even try. It simply DEMANDED that Florida have caucuses, or non-binding "primaries," after the early 4, or SCREW FLORIDA.

Could somebody please find that SCREW FLORIDA section in the rules? Because I could not. It ain't there.

What does this mean moving forward? I haven't a clue. The DNC royally screwed the pooch on this one. Obama supporters sure have a good argument the primary that was held should not count, given the DNC's ruling. Clinton supporters have just as good an argument that under the Rules, AS WRITTEN AND STILL IN FORCE, the August 25 action was null and void, therefore revert to the actual rules and count 1/2 the pledged delegates.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. As I say, let's keep trying to seat Florida by manipulating.
It will not hurt Obama.

About time for my modem to crash again...so see you later.

The attacks on the DNC in the long run will hurt her campaign.
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HeraldSquare212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. I agree, it just reinforces the idea that she's desperate now
and that she does anything to win when she's desperate. This, and the debate ads - just makes it look like a campaign that's struggling.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. this is fla just voting on delegates..they are calling it a caucus ...
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 01:36 PM by flyarm
What role will Florida delegates have if the DNC does not permit them to participate? Although the DNC has said it will not recognize delegates from Florida, the Florida Democratic Party plans to appeal to the eventual Democratic nominee for President to be seated at the Convention. While there are no guarantees that this will happen, the Party will continue the delegate selection process to elect the actual delegates to the Democratic National Convention and will use the results of the January 29th Presidential Preference Primary to determine the apportionment of those delegates.

How are the district-level caucuses run? Who chooses the delegates? The selection of district-level delegates will be in 25 post-primary district-level caucuses around the state on March 1, 2008. The highest vote-getters slotted under each presidential candidate are elected. (The numbers each presidential candidate gets in each district is dependent on the Presidential Primary results in that district.) In order to participate as a voter in the caucus, a voter must establish that he or she is a registered Democrat within the Caucus' Congressional District. Voters must present a voter registration card and photo I.D. The voter will then be required to fill out a statement of support for the presidential candidate whom he or she supports. Delegates and alternates will be elected only by those participants at the caucus who have declared support for the same candidate to whom the delegate or alternates are pledged. Each participating voter must vote for exactly the number of delegate candidates to which the presidential candidate is entitled. Undervotes and overvotes will result in that ballot becoming invalid and will not count.

Where are the district-level caucus sites? Locations and contacts for district-level caucus sites are listed below.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. That would suck
a record number of Democrats cast their votes, with all the candidates on the ballot. 1.7 million dems expressed their preference.

We want to replace that with a caucus that would be lucky to get 10% of that turnout?
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. flyarm it is fake, I keep in touch with FDP every other day
So the Obama camp sent this out? I'll foreward it to FDP Chair on monday. Thanks for posting that. :)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. dupe
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 01:37 PM by flyarm
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. The party leaders are beginning to weigh in on this - Pelosi says NO!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Glad to see Pelosi weighing in.
It is going to be a really ugly battle, I think. I had hoped not, but I think it is.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Richardson also said no.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. I see there is a new movement to take Florida off the hook and shame me.
That is fine. Go with it. Truth will out, and honesty and integrity may not win. But I will have tried.

Florida Democrats lied. They blamed the national party for what they knowingly did.

They were warned they would lose the delegates. Over and over they were warned. They laughed and did it anyway.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thank You, madfloridian.
I appreciate your work on this issue.

What we are seeing in Florida is representative of what is happening inside the Democratic Party as the old Clinton Machine (DLC) lashes out futile attempt to hold on to power.

I suspect that this whole "controversy" was manufactured a couple of years ago (when Hillary was "inevitable") as a way to eject Dean from the Chair after Hillary assumed the crown.
The old Clinton Machine (DLC) would LOVE to take down Howard Dean and reclaim the DNC as their own little Money Machine.
It appears that Dean's 50 State Strategy has worked...the grassroots are too strong, and hopefully we are witnessing the death throes of the DLC.

There is no REAL controversy over seating the Fla. and Mi.
The rules are CLEAR and AGREED upon in advance by all involved.

I oppose seating both Fla & Mi.
While all the candidates were on the ballot in Fla., the Primary was held under the mandate that their votes would NOT count and the delegates would NOT be seated.
No one knows how many did not bother to vote under these circumstances.
The only FAIR and Transparent way to seat the delegates would be to have a "do over" (which I DO support).


I am not an Obama fan, but will vote for him in the GE. While Obama is no "Progressive", there is no doubt that his POWER comes from the grassroots, and THAT is worth supporting.

Again, thanks for all your work on this issue.
You are going to be attacked by the Hillary (DLC) screamers. The Clinton Machine (DLC) won't leave quietly. We will have to pry their cold dead hands off of the levers of POWER within the Democratic Party and return it to The People.
:hi:


A year ago when Hillary was "inevitable" and leading by 30% in the Polls, the DLC was more than happy to throw away Mi. and Fla. in their attempt to unseat Dean and reclaim the DNC.
Now they are forced to grovel, whine, and cry for the votes they callously spurned last year.
Schadenfreude!

I AGREE with you 100% that this public foot stamping and whining is hurting Hillary. It reinforces the perception that she is somehow entitled to the crown and rules should be broken for her. But they are desperate and grasping at straws.


K&R
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. very small people they are.
jackals that have suddenly seemed to lose all the education and progressive ideals I thought they had just a month or so ago.
same tactics as you know who's. but it's getting clearer all the time who the frightened and deluded really are - the ones that titter and sqeak in panic rather than discuss things like adults.

good work, mad.
always appreciate your posts - you are one of the few people here I always learn something from.

jus thot I'd pipe in for support - as they say one 'thank you for a fine product' officially filed to a company means 20+ more feel the same way but didn't bother writing. something like that.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. K & R
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. K & R MF, you've done your homework
:applause: :applause:
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: MADFLORIDIAN HAS SPOKEN
FLORIDA VOTERS DON'T MATTER

THEY DESERVE PUNISHMENT, THEY NEED TO BE SPANKED, PUT TO BED WITHOUT SUPPER!

ACCORDING TO HIS TESTAMENT, THESE VOTERS REPRESENTATIVES SCREWED THEM, AND IF YOUR REPRESENTATIVE SCREWS YOU, IT'S YOUR FAULT!

SCREW FLORIDA VOTERS, THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Whatever you say. You must be right because you are yelling..
in all caps. Here at DU that makes someone right.

:hi:
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. right; as long as O's the nominee, who cares if we lose Fl and the GE? nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. That's rather pathetic.
I think the Hillary people here should come up with strong arguments for their candidate, and stop trying to break the party rules while putting others down.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. As anyone with half a brain can tell Madfloridian is an Obama supporter
And as such he is disingenuous for the reasons being he wants his candidate to win at any and all costs. He doesn't care about the will of the people to have there right taken away to disallow there vote to count. He doesn't take the time to read specifics that have been posted on this thread, but, instead, flames Hillary and her supporters. It's clear what his motives are. This issue isn't over, not by a long shot.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Wrong two ways...I am a woman. I would have voted for either of them.
Until Hillary starting getting pushy about Florida.

I am amazed at the mindless way people categorize me and others as "hillary haters" and "obama supporters" when we are speaking the truth.

I am not a he, I am a she. I did vote for Obama but I was not against Hillary until I saw this side of her.
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. Just a crazy idea but ...
If the FL and MI people campaign really hard for Obama so that he wins the March 4th primaries big then they can be seated with no real ill effects.

Just a thought :evilgrin: :silly:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. Ickes voted for the rules, now he is against them.
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