Parents of daughters should be for Hillary

[gulliver]

If you are a man and have a daughter as I do, then you have probably thought many times about the unfair disadvantages women still face. (If you are a woman, you probably don't need to have a daughter to think about it.) We all want our daughters to have everything in life that our sons have. But everyone knows that is not the way it works out. You only have to look at the makeup of our government to see that equality is not a reality. You can look a lot of other places and see that too.

When you think of a Hillary presidency, don't think only of what a female president would mean to you personally. Think of what it would mean to your daughter. That's all.

I'm not suggesting supporting Hillary as a sappy form of "reverse discrimination." I believe that available evidence suggests Hillary would be a better president than Barack Obama on the merits. So the "message" of nominating Hillary would not be that a less qualified woman can be president. The message would be that a more qualified woman could be president. That's one of the many common sense things that unfortunately does not go without saying in still-backward America.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. wow.

[marlakay]

2. Its my daughter that got me to vote for Obama

and my other daughter and step daughter voted for him also, and my 80 yr old mom. Case closed.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. yeah I know of 3 mommy's that voted for Obama simply because their 5/6 yr olds told them to

[sloppyjoe25s]

69. And my Female Latina State Attorney General

Patricia Madrid - Voting for and endorsing Obama actively to Latinos and Latinas in New Mexico.

Why?

Substance, Policies, Detail, Leadersip, Judgment, Experience.

In short - All Available Evidence pointing to Obama as the FAR better president.

[gulliver]

32. More power to you. Seriously.

Doesn't mean you get to close the case, though... I don't see a vote for Obama (or even one...two...three...four) as closing the case. Just a good point.

[sloppyjoe25s]

72. And a 78 year old Female Union Organizer, born of Russian immigrants

and friend of our family in San Francisco - (she is also a physician who has worked for years for health care for the poor, and better working conditions for Transportation Workers, and is a noted academic) --

She is Voting for Obama

Leadership, Substance, Intelligence, Policies.

Oh - and her daughters too:

Voting for Obama

[sloppyjoe25s]

66. and my 73 year old White Mom and 62 year old white Aunt

voting for Obama.

and my 30 year old half-asian wife - and her 34 year old half-asian sister - and her 66 year old white Mom.

ALL VOTING FOR OBAMA.

ALL available evidence on Judgement, Substance, Character, Leadership, Policies, and RAW INTELLECT - strongly suggest that Obama would be a far better president than Mrs. Clinton.

He could end up being one of the great presidents of US History.

[BlackVelvet04]

74. That's not real surprising....

women are usually other women's worst enemy.

And there is no evidence of judgment, substance, yada yada yada. That's just stupid. Feel good tingly shit.

[sloppyjoe25s]

100. Hillary's campaign miss-management

is further proof of her terrible judement.

as was her appointing Mark Penn.

As was her IWR vote (without reading the evidence).

Now Mrs. Clinton is on to slogan #564

Yeah --- all these women are "Enemies of other women" and "not surprising"

You are seriously a freaking nut case if you believe that.

Get over the fact that ALOT of VERY SMART feminist activist women support Obama.

Denying them their own voice, and their own intelligent rationales is about as demeaning to women as you could get.

[Darth_Kitten]

75. My Mom is for Hillary

Sees her as a woman of substance, a woman who has weathered the most vindictive, cruel attacks and has not caved in.

[sloppyjoe25s]

101. And no Obama supporter denies her that right - or denies her ability

to have her own judgment.

Good for your Mom - she should support who she believes in.

But to say that other women - smart activist feminist women like MY MOM - who has fought for equal rights for women for 73 years - is an "enemy to women" for supporting Obama - is demeaning to all women.

Hillary supporters who say that all these smart, talented women who support Obama are hurting women, are themselves demeaning women in the lowest way. They are saying "women can't have their own judgement", "women can't think"

Baloney. Alot of VERY VERY smart women are supporting Obama. Time for *some* Clinton supporters to get over it. They do their candidate a real disservice.

[roguevalley]

103. I appreciate your sentiments, OP, but you must understand that

just voting for women is no better than only voting for men. What if the women were Phyllis Schlafly or other ilk? In my state, we have a woman senator and she's a collosal dick.

[GarbagemanLB]

3. voting based on race or gender is flat out stupid. By choosing Hillary you are choosing

the weaker of the two candidates in a general election, and frankly I don't see any argument against that statement. What about parents of black women? Who should they vote for based on your ridiculous logic?

[havocmom]

11. And flat out racist or sexist

I cannot believe the crap like the OP still gets posted here.

If only women are helpful to women, perhaps we should be two countries, one female - one male.

Then we could divide that up further to have areas of women by race and men by race. Taken to the logical conclusion shows just how silly this gender excuse for voting HRC really is. It is UNprogressive in the extreme.

[Exultant Democracy]

12. Yeah if your a parent try not to teach your kinds about idenity politics, a most primitive form of

tribalism.

[gulliver]

18. I don't think Hillary would be weaker in the GE.

I think Obama has not been tried yet, so we don't know how he will do in the GE. So that is my argument against your statement that choosing Hillary is choosing the weaker of the two candidates for the GE. Personally, I see much of Obama's support having no foundation that can withstand even one real attack. The main thing he has going for him is pure enthusiasm. And maybe that's enough, but it's a gamble.

Then the parents of the black women (since you asked) should vote for Hillary, because Hillary is the better candidate. And, as I said in my original post, the black daughters would get a boost out of it on another level.

[gulliver]

25. Do you even read a post before freaking out Garbageman?

LOL. The logic spasticity on this site has really hit record levels. Everything that goes against your preconceptions is wrong and dumb and stupid and obviously racist. Do you use that thinking style in daily life too? Sorry if so.

[GarbagemanLB]

30. How about you read 95% of the other responses in this thread. I am not alone in rebuking your argum

ent

[gulliver]

36. No but I was talking about you.

I just picked your post out as an example of the hair trigger "don't read, just shout down" style of so many here. They can't win an argument, so they just make noise.

[GarbagemanLB]

38. I read your argument, and it was stupid. Apparently I am not alone in thinking that.

[gulliver]

48. Appeal to the populace all you want.

But it looks like you don't really have a leg to stand on. It's just stupid cuz you and people you agree with say so. Just a literal spiral of fallacious balderdash... Seriously, point out what you think is stupid. I'm guessing you won't be able to.

[GarbagemanLB]

53. You could make the same argument for supporting a black candidate. Seriously..just replace 'woman' w

ith 'black'. It is a stupid and shallow argument to make for supporting Hillary over Obama.

Take their life stories and stances on issues rather than what they look like or if they have breasts or not.

[gulliver]

68. This is just rhetoric. Of course you could make the same ...

... argument and replace black or gay or whatever. And the argument would be valid. You are not disproving or undermining my argument, you're just attacking it with rhetoric.

[Darth_Kitten]

77. Seems like your logic is ridiculous..........

n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. Parents Period should be for Hillary...she has been a Child Advocate thoughtout her career

[emilyg]

6. Amen.

[havocmom]

14. Economic policies favored by HRC not always best for families

War votes too.

[RiverStone]

35. I've been a child advocate for 20 years....

Working on the front lines teaching and counseling in public schools - and ya know what - those "kids" want Obama by an overwhelming margin!

You want to promote a child advocate?

Then listen to the children - they want Obama!

Including my 18 year old daughter.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

43. I commend you for your work BUT, seriously what do children know about it. really?

[RiverStone]

57. My daughter's vote counts as much as an 80 year old's...

And they know enough to make an informed decision.

Shit, they are old enough to be dragged into Shrub's illegal war - they are old enough to vote.

But it would be far better to say what you said here to them - boy, would you get an earful. :hi:


On edit: Thanks for the compliment on my work. NCLB has almost driven me out of education...and many, many other teachers are very frustrated by it. Lets hope a new Democratic admin can put the brakes on it ASAP!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

60. oh I have plenty of my own little earfulls darl'in...I am a non profit for youth....

Endangered Heirs, Inc : http://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=198083



.

[crawfish]

5. It depends.

The great thing about this election - both women and African-Americans would benefit greatly by having a positive role model in the WH. We're furthering a cause no matter who is elected. Thus, we are free to pick the most qualified person; which, in this case (and IMO), is Obama.

[goclark]

7. My mother is 89 and bright as the stars in the sky

She LOVES OBAMA and has helped me to make calls to get out the vote!

[VolcanoJen]

23. GoClark's mom rocks!

:-)

"War is not healthy for children or other living things."

[melody]

9. Condi Rice is also a woman ... should we also vote for her?

There are other issues than gender involved. I am voting for the candidate I believe to be the best person to beat
the GOP. I always trust the Democrat over the Republican ... history has shown that to be the best bet. I'm considering
the interests of *everyone* not only women. To vote for Hillary because she's female would make me gender biased ... and
that is the problem not the solution.

[stray cat]

10. I understand the point but part of me thinks as a parent of a white son

should you vote for McCain? So seldom is absolutely everything equal except the color or sex of a potential employee.

[Cha]

I believe you do not

know how to ascertain evidence based on facts.

[JimGinPA]

13. I Only Have Sons...

But I have four nieces, and they are all voting for Obama, as are my three sisters. Not because he's a man, but because he's actually the best person to lead this country.

[Colobo]

15. Same thing could be said for Obama and black children.

[MadBadger]

26. Wanna start that OP? I dont have the threads.

[VolcanoJen]

16. I'm a daughter who got my mom to vote for Obama.

:P

[pdxmom]

17. My daughter will be voting in her first presidential election this year. I have

taught her that she should vote for the person she feels is most qualified and most represents her own views. My daughter is a very strong young woman, who is comfortable with who she is and what she can accomplish. She doesn't feel like she needs to support a female candidate, just because of gender. Her issue is Iraq, and that is the issue she will vote on.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

19. My four daughters begged me to vote Obama.

I told them they don't know what's best for them. So I filled out each of their absentee ballots for Clinton. Sure, it's illegal, but Father knows best. Silly little girls don't know what's good for them.

[marlakay]

31. I sure hope your joking

I wouldn't even do that when my religious daughter voted for Bush last time and now is for Obama.

But you have to live with yourself.

[bunnies]

42. 4 Counts of voter fraud. Strange thing to brag about on a message board. nt

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

51. Obviously, I'm joking.

I only did it to the three blind ones, you know, when they weren't looking.

Jesus, what's happened to this place? Does one really have to use a "sarcasm" emoticon when the statement is SOOOOOOOOOO over the top?

[sniffa]

67. Sarcasm tags, like turn signals, or for the weak

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

70. Are you being sarcastic?

[goclark]

91. That is about the most shameful thing I have heard lately

And from a woman too.

For shame to steal the voteing ability of your daughters.

That is shameful.

[nomorewhopper]

20. OP is a flat out ridiculous argument

[RiverStone]

21. My 18 year ol daughter came to Obama on her own...

And believe me, thankfully she did not factor Hillary's gender into the equation.

I work with young people in education - and I can tell ya the vast majority of our daughters and sons (call it the 18-25 year range) are going for Obama because he reaches them, he hears them, and he represents their hopes and inspires them to get involved!

My daughter is a senior in high school and she is thrilled her first vote presidential vote EVER will be for Obama!

Parent's of daughters should hope our daughters think for themselves!!!!

That's what she did and I'm very proud of her!!

[VolcanoJen]

27. "Parents of daughters should hope our daughters think for themselves!"

Sounds like you did a great job with your daughter, Riverstone. :hug:

[RiverStone]

41. Thank you!

That means a lot. :pals:

[BeyondGeography]

22. I can think of a thousand different lives I'd want for my daughter besides Hillary's

No thanks.

[MadBadger]

24. Dumbest subject I've ever seen

[gulliver]

28. Another typical example of critical thinking skills from hnmnf.

LOL. What a goofy approach to political discourse some folks seem to have.

[GarbagemanLB]

33. Vote your skin color! Vote your gender! Vote your sexual orientation! Vote your hair color!

[apocalypsehow]

94. What you said. n/t

[carpediem]

29. I have 2 daughters and a son, I've thought long and hard

about who I think is the best hope for their future and the future of our country. Obama is that choice for my family, including my daughters. My 11 year old daughter thought it was really cool that there could be a woman president and asked me why I'm not supporting her. After explaining my decision thoroughly, explaining the differences etc, I told her that we should never support someone just because they may look like us, but rather because we think they are the best qualified for the job. I think that is by far a better lesson than simply voting for her because she is a woman. I'd love to see a woman president, I just think this time around, Obama is a better choice.

[bunnies]

34. And if Hillary is President all discrimination against women will vanish.

poof! Suddenly, as if by magic, the playing field will be equalized. And by Hillary Clinton no less, a woman who will forever be accused of hitching on to Bills ride (whether or not its true).

I just dont buy it. The first female President can NOT have a cloud of whether she made it on her own hanging over her head. And like it not, Hillary has that big stormy cloud that will permanently negate the accomplishment.

[NMMNG]

37. Bull

Nobody should vote for Hillary just because she's a woman, just as they shouldn't vote against her just because she's a woman.

Likewise nobody should vote for Obama just because he's a black man, or against him just because he's a black man.


They should vote or refuse to vote against either candidate based on their merits, not on their gender/race.

[grantcart]

39. After taking my daughter on a trip to Los Angeles, in which I had to

bribe my wife and daughter to do anything political, to see Michelle, Oprah, Maria, Caroline, she had a simple reaction. "I have never see women talk like that". Both of my daughters might have liked Hillary if she had been approachable and not packaged. Our family was against the war 'on day one'. We researched the difference between the Shia and the Sunni and know exactly why the passions for the 'beloved Fatima' made this disaster entirely predictable.


We didn't hear many others agree with us. We got into shouting matches with our neighbors and even other buddhists about it, if you can believe that. We lost lifelong friends about it. My daughters suffered at school because they were strong, knowledgeable and articulate for peace when everyone else was on the bandwagon for Iraq. They are strong independent thinkers and they feel like they know who bests understand and represents their interest.

If you want to make an appointment and come over and tell them that they should abandon their convictions because they share anatomy with a candidate. Come on over - we can use a good laugh.

[gulliver]

54. Got a lot of those Obama women voters in my family too.

I have no problem with it. I take it younger women tend to vote more for Obama and older women more for Hillary. So there is either a merit reason for the younger women voting Obama or perhaps yet another semi-valid reason: taking the reins away from the Boomers. In reality, if that is a reason, I can't argue the point. The Boomers have been screw-ups.

[City Lights]

40. I am the mother of a teenage daughter and I'm for Obama.

Gender has nothing to do with it.

[Medusa]

44. Yeah my Mom voted for Obama.

Because she is a smart woman and she raised ME to be a smart woman and make our own choices, not based on age, race, sex, etc.

[blogslut]

45. I am a mother with a voting age daughter

A single mother - who had to claw and scratch for everything. We managed to get through it despite Bill Clinton's horrid "welfare reform". This mother and her daughter are voting for Barack Obama.

[Vinca]

46. Then parents of black children should be for Obama? nt

[gulliver]

50. If they believe Obama would make the best president, Yes.

I happen to believe Hillary would make the best president based on available evidence. So I am suggesting even more of a reason to vote for her in the discrimination counter-example area. Absolutely the same logic would apply to Obama for people who believe him to be the better presidential material.

[Bread and Circus]

47. I'm all for a strong, competent Woman President. However, Clinton is not the one.

She's unethical to begin with. That's not a role model for my daughters.

[BlackVelvet04]

76. There will never be a woman who IS the one....

cause they aren't perfect. Men don't have to be, but women do.

[Darth_Kitten]

84. You rock!

:D

[BlackVelvet04]

86. Thanks....n/t

[FrenchieCat]

49. This mother of two daughters voted for Obama, as did my daughters......

None of us believe that Hillary having to bring her husband to her job interview to get the job makes her a role model for women, period.

[JTFrog]

59. Exactly.

How many could tell you without looking it up, what Margaret Thatcher's husband's name was? Indira Ghandi's? Angela Merkel's?

[TalkAgain]

52. My daughter said to vote for Obama - I am!

[Chasing Dreams]

56. My daughter said the same thing!

As did my wife and dozens of women where work. But I had already made up my mind to support Obama after Edwards dropped out. Still, it's nice to get positive reinforcement.

[Darth_Kitten]

78. I wouldn't dare tell my mother whom to vote for, she's got a mind of her own

It's not a bloody popularity contest. :eyes:

[NC_Nurse]

55. I am a parent of 2 daughters and a son.

We are all supporting Obama.

[Barack_America]

58. My parents and I are voting for Obama!

:patriot:

[ShortnFiery]

61. No WAY! I did not EVER buy into HRC's lame "victim mentality" and neither will my daughter.

IMO, HRC is NOT a role model for our young daughters. Everything that she's politically earned has been via "the coattails" of her serially unfaithful husband. That's NOT pro-women's advancement in the least. :thumbsdown:

[Darth_Kitten]

82. Jealous much?

n/t

Nothing is sadder than self-loathing, jealous women.

[zulchzulu]

62. Send your daughters to Hillary's wars

I'm sure they'd appreciate you taking your daughter to the Army signup office and deploying her to one of Hillary's wars.

Or maybe not...

[Darth_Kitten]

83. Well, doesn't Obama want to INCREASE the size of the military?

Yes, figured as much.

[zulchzulu]

87. Hillary has stated she wants to increase size of military by 80,000

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8573139/

Granted, she said that before. She may have flip flopped on her position since focus group analysis and spectral conditions say she should change her opinion...

[RiverStone]

63. This thread is a PERFECT example of.....

A poster's OP getting the exact opposite reaction that he/she had intended.

:think:

[housewolf]

64. Flawed thinking

I'm a woman, a baby boomer who came of age during the feminist revolution of the 70's when women were burning bras,demanding equal pay and pushing the glass ceiling further and further.

But I gotta tell you, it was a movement towards EQUALITY, not to sisterhood. The point of the whole women's movement was for FREEDOM for women, not some sort of closed ranks against men.

Freedom means the freedom to make one's own choices based on what one thinks is right and correct. Those who think Hillary is the best choice for the country because of her policies and experience - terrific, you make your choice and you vote for her. Because you think she's right right one for THE COUNTRY as a whole. But I gotta tell you, I think it's wrong to vote for someone because you think she or he would provide a good role model for your daughter or because of some "message" that it would send.

Suggesting that someone should vote based on a candidates gender (or race, for that matter) either out of sollidarity or because of the message it would send is flawed thinking, in my opinion.

[fedupinBushcountry]

65. My daughter thinks on her own

she voted for Obama in the Virginia primary (just one of the 58% of us women who voted for Obama) and she can't wait to vote for him in November. To her this isn't about gender or color it is about change for her future, she sees that in Obama not Clinton.

[Whisp]

71. bollocks. no warmongers for president, please.

no lieing triangulating dishonest untrustworthies.

and that sure keeps Hillary out of that big Chair.

I think it is Replusive to think I should vote for Hillary just because she's a woman. It's make me Sick to think of that and how so many can get caught up in that garbage - that if you Don't, then you're a sexist or don't care for your daughters or don't care for your grandma's.

Maniupulative crap and I think I know where the orders are coming from to use this divisive shit as a campaign note.

[sundancekid]

73. her lack of character and nastiness have set glass ceilings for women back 50 years

and can I tell you that my 6 year old granddaughter absolutely CRINGES when she sees her image on TV ... even the body language scares my littlest angel - on top of which I have 3 daughters for whom I would want nothing more than a DESERVING image of a great first woman Prez - but HRC just ain't it ... none of them are voting for Hillary, and all 3 are quite independent minded and fine researchers of the issues.

[Darth_Kitten]

80. LOL..........

Maybe your 6 year old granddaughter shouldn't be exposed to such blatant misogyny so early?

Cringes? What a little angel. :eyes: I doubt such "independent" minded parents raised her. Sad.

[sundancekid]

90. another inconvenient truth for you to digest - bet you can handle it!

[AlCzervik]

79. oh we should, thanks for dictating that.

[paperbag_ princess]

81. When did we abandon affirmative action as a party?

How in the heck do you think black people and women and all other minority groups have gotten to where we are? People fought for it...people backed them...intentionally! because there has always been an opposing force against them.....there is nothing wrong with pushing for diversity...it is good for our country.

When you have good and qualified candidate, you are stupid not to support them. I want a woman in office and I am in no way shape or form ashamed of that. Is anyone really fooling themselves that 85% of the black community just happens to think that Obama is the best candidate. It is great that the black community comes out and supports a high quality candidate of their own....Good for them....they would be fools to pick him apart looking for and inventing reasons why they should support someone else.

If you truly think someone would make a bad president then you should not vote for them....ever.....

I think both candidates would be great. I am sorry that I have to choose...but I am not sorry to intentionally support a woman


When did we adopt the far right's position on this issue?....we have made great strides opening doors for women and minorities...and just as we are nearing the finish line by putting someone in the highest position in the land by working together to open that last door...we start claiming that all the work we have done so far was nothing but stupidity and reverse discrimination!

[formernaderite]

85. My daughters and my wife have never been for hillary

Perhaps if it was a different "female" candidate, they might have been more excited. My wife and I are both former Edwards supporters...and my daughters (and sons) have always been for Obama. None of the females in my family feel any allegiance or necessary support for hillary based on her gender. None of the females in my family have suffered from your alleged discrimination.

This may be an age issue. Most Women have benefited from societies gender shift, and I'd acknowledge that younger women have little personal experience with the women's movement and what it meant. My wife on the other hand was THERE. She excelled in a very male field of engineering early on. Still she feels no compunction to vote for the female candidate...after all she tells me...this is the 21st century, I stand on my own merits.

I have to think that some of the women who fought vociferously in that era, seem to think their work should be duly awarded by supporting Hillary as the candidate. I can understand that..but usually leaders who change history do so out of the ethical good, without the need for payback. Frankly, I don't see Hillary as emblematic of that era. She has however benefited from people's sympathy.

Simply put...perhaps the problem really is nothing more than: Your candidate.

[loveangelc]

88. stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

A Hillary presidency won't mean shit to me tbh, except that a woman can win the presidency through family ties.

[Hippo_Tron]

102. I would prefer to see a woman without a famous husband get elected President

But if Hillary gets the nomination she will get my vote.

[Skidmore]

89. Let me get this right. So, I am a woman, my daughters and granddaughters are

women, Hillary is a woman so we MUST vote for her. Is that correct? Well, we're voting Obama. I will reserve my vote for a woman president for someone deserving of the title. I don't think Hillary is that person.

[davsand]

92. Material Girl (my ten year old daughter) is supporting Obama.

She has loved him since she met hm during his Senate Primary, and she adores Michelle as well. Material Girl will be happy to tell you how Obama gave her a noogie and how Michelle told her that if he ever did that again to come get her--she'd make him apologize.



Seems to me it is more important that our daughters see us as poltically involved and aware rather than seeing us blindly embrace the status quo.


Laura

[slick8790]

93. I'm not the parent of a daughter, or a parent at all.

But i'd rather vote for someone who will beat McCain, and therefore prevent another president who wants to overturn Roe v. Wade

[Avalux]

95. HA HA HA! Single mother here with three daughters.

Electing Hillary soley because she's a woman is just plain wrong. I do not consider her a role model for my daughters for many reasons I won't go into here.

I want more than anything to elect a woman president but Hillary is the wrong woman; she is not the best choice to lead this country.

[Auntie Bush]

96. Since more than half this nation is female...if we vote for Hillary ...we will

showing all those women that finally women will have a more equal chance to reach the glass ceiling and encourage more people to aim higher than ever before.

Since our nation has a smaller percentage of blacks...we would be helping fewer people raise their expectations. So electing Hillary would be more beneficial to our nation as a whole. IMHO that answers the question of which is best...elect the first woman or elect the first black?

[Yael]

97. As a woman, I would love to see a woman in the white house

But not that one, this one:



No more divisiveness!!!

[jackson_dem]

98. Obamite hypocrisy on display again. They didn't whine about Katzen's thread that prompted this

[LostInAnomie]

99. Why should the race or gender of a candidate even be a factor?

That kind of crap is an obvious appeal to the identity politics that has helped to keep minorities and women oppressed in this country for generations. Flipping it, and making it a rallying cry is just as bad. Vote for a person because you support their policies, and past records. To do otherwise, is disgusting.

[DawgHouse]

104. I only have sons

and they are Hillary supporters. It has nothing to do with her gender but they think she's the better candidate. However, they are prepared to support whoever wins the nomination.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

105. My parents (who voted for bush twice) don't feel that way since I, their daughter, convinced them to

vote and caucs for Obama here in Texas on March 4th