Obama's views on religion and politics

[amborin]

sorry, but they're too far to the radical right for me....how does Obama differ from the radical christian right here?



(c) 2006 University of Dayton Law Review
University of Dayton Law Review

Fall, 2006

32 Dayton L. Rev. 29

ESSAY: RELIGION AND POLITICS: THE CATHOLIC CONTRIBUTION

NAME: James L. Heft, S.M.*

snip snip snip

....Let me start with Obama. No politician, in my opinion, has addressed the issue of religion and politics at the length and with the substance as did Barack Obama, the Democratic senator from Illinois who electrified much of the nation in his speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention.

On June 28, 2006, he gave the keynote address to the Call to Renewal organization, a mainly Democratic, faith-based movement to overcome poverty. n28 Catholic political columnist E.J. Dionne called it the most significant statement on Church-state relations since John Kennedy's address in 1960 to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, a group of over three hundred Evangelical ministers. n29 But with Obama we have a very different situation - one that is nearly the opposite of the one Kennedy faced.

Instead of assuring ministers, as Kennedy did, that his faith as a Catholic would not affect his decisions as President, Obama the Senator chastised his fellow Democrats for failing to "acknowledge the power of faith . . . in the lives of the American people." n30 He sets out to face squarely the "mutual suspicion that sometimes exists between religious America and secular America." n31 He states that it is time that we "join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy." n32 He warns against scrubbing language "of all religious content," since to do so is to "forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of <*37> Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice."

snip

Obama declares:


hat I am suggesting is this-secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas , Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant , Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King-indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history-were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause.< n34 > So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition...

[babylonsister]

1. If you post something that's not your own, post a LINK, please! nt

[amborin]

3. not sure how, tried

and it didn't work..got it thru lexisnexis

[babylonsister]

12. You need to try harder. First lesson I learned on DU. Your word

isn't always (hardly ever) good enough here. :hi:

[MADem]

2. I didn't go for that pandering bullshit. It's fine for candidates to get up there and bullshit

about what THEY believe,PERSONALLY, but when they start hectoring us about what we must "acknowledge" and how we can't take JEEEBUS out of the government's vernacular, he loses me.

You've got to protect all comers, to include the atheists, the agnostics, and the "Depends How I Feel Today-ers."

[dkf]

8. I'm an athiest/agnostic and I'm happy he is addressing Christian

values.

My biggest gripe has always been that some people who call themselves Christian seem to use it negatively. If he can get Christians to turn away from people who preach hate, then I say good for him.

[MADem]

24. I don't think Jesus Christ belongs in government. Or Muhamad, or The Great Pumpkin, or

any other deity. And 'values' aren't the exclusive province of any faith, so to speak of Christian values like they're unique or special, or better, is just a road I refuse to go down.

I think he walks over the line when he pulls that crap out. If he says "This is what "EYE" believe" I can deal with that just fine. But I don't appreciate him telling any one of us how religion should be part of government discourse, and religious symbols and language in government should be accomodated. I personally think we need to get IN GOD WE TRUST off the damned money, we need to not put the Ten Commandments on any new courthouses or in any more courtrooms, and we need to make it clear that the old architectural references are faux pas of simpler minds in simpler days--back when it was "OK" to be, say, racist or sexist, but not anything that we want to praise or encourage.

He can say we are "one people" but in fact, we are multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and multi-religious or of no faith at all. It's impossible to accomodate everyone's faith, because as quick as you do, some asshole comes up with the Church of The Plastic Hotdog or something. Religion needs to NOT be a part of government. While you don't discriminate against people owing to faith, and you accomodate reasonably, it's just not "on" to be involving government with religion--you end up with crap like went down at the USAF Academy--a group of jerks "imposing" their views on others.

I know he "meant well" but his remarks were open to a LOT of interpretation--none of it making me feel too comfortable.

[dkf]

26. Well I want someone to convince Christians that hating is not Christianlike

If he can convince evangelicals to be ok with gays, will you still decry him talking about Christian values?

[MADem]

27. That's not going to happen. He's triangulated that issue.

He sends out Donnie and Kirbyjon to tell the people "Pay no attention to the bullshit that he says to the wine drinkers in their fancy cars" and he tells the wine drinkers "Pay no attention to the bullshit my homophobic closeted gay preachers are reciting to the fundies."

It's all for "the greater good" is what he's telling both groups. For the ones in each group that pay attention, they're not happy. But most don't pay attention. They listen to the pretty words, and don't see the cynical "playing" going on behind them.

[dkf]

32. Just wait and see. I have a feeling he will surprise you in a good way.

Sometimes you gotta believe that things will turn out for the better. I do think that day is coming. Don't give up on him yet. If at the end of his first term he hasn't tried his best I'll send my mea culpas to you.

[MADem]

42. That "believe" crap I find tiresome, too. "Change you can BELIEVE in" doesn't

pay the light bill.

Frankly, I think Obama is a great big BULLSHITTER. He's more about "business as usual" than CHANGE. An old time Chicago politician in a nice, new, 'unique to retail politics' wrapper. I think he conceals his drive for power behind bullshit phrases, but I also think his testiness and abruptness whenever he's NOT on the podium reveals his true nature.

Make no mistake, if he gets the nom, I will--unlike some of the Obama acolytes here who will stay home--go cast my vote for the Democratic nominee, all the while holding my nose and preparing for the inevitable shitstorm of rightwing abuse.

[ErnestoG]

4. Obama is correct. You keep alienating people of faith and you will keep losing.

That's hardly arguable.

[Skip Intro]

9. Therefore we should determine to what extent religion will play a part in our governemnt?

The MOST any politician should say about religion is that he/she will protect the rights of all to worship, or not, as each individual sees fit.

Nothing more.


Let Obama preach his spiritual crap to a congregation somewhere far away from my government.

[ErnestoG]

10. therefore your should stop slamming religion and pay attention to their views.

Is that hard to grasp? Have you learned NOTHING of the shit sandwich delivered to the Democrats over the last 12 years?

[Skip Intro]

do you think we should act like republicans to get elected?

pander to that base

try to legislate morality

religion has no room in government

[MADem]

29. "Pay attention to their views?" What, if we don't study the Holy Books, we're fucked?

It's not religion that fucked us--it's weakass candidates who didn't stand up and speak to the needs of the average voter. And those needs weren't "Jeeeebus." They were jobs, quality of life, safe streets, and schools that taught kids, not got them shot in the cafeteria at lunchtime.

[mcctatas]

13. Maybe in fantasy land, but we are living in the post Bush world...

you can't unkick the punt, we have to deal with many people (possibly even most) who believe religion does belong in the public sphere...
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/
From his speech
"Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, there are some liberals who dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

Now, such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when our opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy."

[Skip Intro]

16. He's talking political strategy. He's saying, pander to the "faithful."

How far will he go with that?

Do they "get" something for their support.

How does this new relationship grow and expand?


The possible answers to those questions scare the hell out of me.

KEEP RELIGION OUT OF GOVERNMENT.


Period.

Obama is talking political strategy here. He employed it in SC with the pandering to certain homophic Christians there. I don't want to win by using peoples faiths as part of a campaign. I don't want people to vote for my president because he is a "good" Christain.

The whole thing is rediculous.


get the religion out of the government, get it gone as some ceremonial litmus test for candidates.

if people are looking to the government for religious guidance, then there are indeed some poor souls in this world

[mcctatas]

18. You do realize that this speech was not given at a political event

and just because we want religion out of government (I agree with you 100%) does not mean we can make it happen by not adressing it. BTW, he is not alone in this opinion...
"It's also a highly organized part of the campaign. Right after the 2004 elections, Clinton telegraphed her robust effort to reach values voters as a presidential candidate. Speaking at Tufts University outside Boston, she called it "a mistake for the Democrats not to engage evangelical Christians on their own turf – essentially ceding the vote to President Bush." A year ago, Clinton hired Burns Strider, an evangelical Christian from Mississippi who ran faith outreach for the House Democratic Caucus, to organize her faith outreach"

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s02-uspo.html

[Skip Intro]

28. I am aware of this. I don't l ike it either.

But is she saying the same thing Obama is? I get the sense Obama we must pander to them, that's what he did in SC - pandered to certain Christians who think being gay is a sin, a main theme of that event, pandered to people who believe some people aren't equal. Is that how he wants to engage the faithful.

Can't the people of faith keep their politics and religion separate?

Really, we're talking about keeping a country running, and maintaining a free (*cough*) society, what role would religion play? Should we have a fourth branch of government, the clerical branch?

Kills me.


I don't think Hillary is coming on about quite as strong as Obama, but I don't really like any of it. I don't like where it may lead.

[mcctatas]

30. see post 25...

I personally don't want any of them injecting religion into policy, but it looks like that's where both of our potential nominees are headed...

[Common Sense Party]

33. How do you feel about a candidate who says the following?

"People often ask me whether I'm a praying person, and I say I was lucky enough to be raised in a praying family, and learned to say my prayers as a very young child, and remembered seeing my late father by the side of his bed until his very last days saying his prayers. So I was fortunate. But I also say that had I not been a praying person, that after I'd been in the White House for a few months, I would have become a praying person."

"For me, the Social Principles of the Methodist Church have been as much a description of our history as a prod to my future actions. We can find direction, if we look to the church's call to strengthen families and renew our schools and encourage policies that enable each child to have a chance to fulfill his or her God-given potential."

“The whole Bible gives you a glimpse of God and God’s desire for a personal relationship, but we can’t possibly understand every way God is communicating with us.”

“I am very grateful that I had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought.”

“The whole idea of the new covenant was really a new relationship with God, a sense that we could be forgiven, that we could seek both personally and through our relationships with others that gift of forgiveness. It’s instrumental in life.”

[mcctatas]

34. Hillary...

is that you?

[Skip Intro]

36. She didn't throw one group of people under the bus to gain favor from bigots.

She didn't pander to predudices.

She talked about her faith.

Not the same.

[Common Sense Party]

37. KEEP RELIGION OUT OF GOVERNMENT.

Period.

No, it's not the same, but it's not "keeping religion out of government."

Do you want a completely secular government? Then your candidate should also shut up about her faith, and stop trying to pander to get the squishy religious votes.

[Skip Intro]

39. I don't like it when any of them do it. And they all do it. Have for decades.

I agree, keep religion out of governemnt.

I don't like it when Hillary does it.

But Obama is different. He pandered to Christians who were being preached to about the sin of being gay.



yes, keep religion out of government

[Common Sense Party]

40. Let Hillary preach her spiritual crap to a congregation somewhere far away from my government

They all pander.

Some pandering you forgive. Some pandering you don't.

[Skip Intro]

41. Haven't denied that.

I don't know what I forgive, but I don't forgive sacrificing one group of people to score points with another. I don't forgive preaching bigotry to bigots as a way to win votes.


Yes, they all pander.

Yes, Obama is worse.

No, I don't like any of it.

[mcctatas]

38. and Obama did where exactly???

for Christ's sake she said she wants to "inject faith into policy" and she hired " Burns Strider, an evangelical Christian from Mississippi who ran faith outreach for the House Democratic Caucus, to organize her faith outreach." If she hasn't pandered yet, she sure as hell plans on it and so will Obama, Edwards, Richardson etc. (with the possible exception of Kucinich) because this is the world we live in....
Ignoring your candidates behavior while accusing the other of it is a little bit like sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "LALALALALA I can't hear you"


http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s02-uspo.html?page=1

[amborin]

15. he's saying more than that

he's saying bring faith into the public sphere

[mcctatas]

5. Maybe I've become desensitized over the past 8 years...

but that actually seems pretty reasonable to my agnostic self. Call to Renewal is a great organization headed by Jim Wallis...
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

link to text of speech

[sandnsea]

6. He has faith, how radical!

If the mere fact that someone has faith is radical to you, then you are probably right that Obama's faith is too far right for you.

[boppers]

7. Obama on faith and politics:

"Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all . . . Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing." -BHO

[calmblueocean]

17. Yow!

That's the flashpoint, right there.

What I like about the way Barack says this is that it provokes the religious voters to self-reflection. Some of them will rise to the challenge, and some won't. Those that refuse must acknowledge that they are not believers in democracy at all, but in theocracy.

[Sanctified]

11. Whats the problem?

He asked a faith based organization to overcome poverty. - Good this costs the American People no tax dollars

He Chastised Democrats for Failing to "acknowledge the power of faith ... in the lives of American People." - A vast majority of Americans believe in faith so it only makes sense to acknowledge that they do.

He states that it is time that we "join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy." - Whats wrong with debates?

He warns against scrubbing language "of all religious content," since to do so is to "forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice." - Whats wrong with this? He is not saying allow new religious content just don't try to rewrite history by removing it.

[amborin]

14. the problem is

he seems to be abandoning the premise that govt embrace secularism....

he seems to be saying it's fine to bring religion into the public arena

[mcctatas]

19. and once again he is not alone...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s02-uspo.html

[amborin]

22. hmmmm

is she saying same as Obama?

Obama is saying it's advised for politicians to bring faith into the public arena

sounded as though the clinton article was simply pointing to her religious background and practice

[mcctatas]

25. Okay, we'll let Hillary make it explicit then...

At the Sojourners faith forum last June, she referred to how she and the other two Democratic presidential candidates invited to speak – Obama and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina – are trying "to inject faith into policy."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s02-uspo.html?page=4

[Sanctified]

23. It is fine to bring religion into the public arena.

It's not fine for Congress to establish laws respecting an established religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

[Political Heretic]

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[mcctatas]

21. OMG

I love that....:yourock:

[Radical Activist]

31. The modern progressive movement was founded on Christian values.

Study up on William Jennings Bryan. The modern liberal Democratic party started as a movement focused on religious expressions of progressive ideals. So no, I see nothing conservative about what Obama says.
And I don't agree with people who think expressions of faith should be banned from public discourse. I find that prejudiced and oppressive. You're right to not practice religion doesn't require banning others from expressing theirs.

[ShortnFiery]

35. I'm a liberal Catholic ... don't mess with our beloved Franciscians. :-)

<tongue-in-cheek> ;)

[ficus1]

43. Did you actually read the entire speech?

I'm an atheist and I find it hard to argue with any of the statements he made in it, but, then again, I'm somewhat rational, unlike the OP who compares Obama to the radical Christian right.