Obama did indeed plagiarize the speech

[mudesi]

Or maybe his speech writer did. Who knows? But the speeches are obviously much too coincidental for this to be an ambiguous claim. The evidence speaks for itself.

The real issue here is do you care?

Because I believe this is going to backfire on Clinton if she and her friends in the mainstream media push it.

People don't care about whether or not Mr. Obama lifted parts of his speeches from a fellow supporter of his.

People care about Clinton's Iraq war vote, her membership in the DLC, her ties to and donations from huge corporations.

People care about their jobs, their health care, their sons and daughters stuck in Iraq.

I, for one, can forgive Mr. Obama for being a plagiarist. I can't forgive Ms. Clinton, though, for being responsible for almost 4000 dead soldiers, tens of thousands more who lost limbs, and millions of innocent civilians killed.

So go ahead, Clintons. Continue to focus on this nonsense. Mr. Obama is made of teflon, in case you haven't noticed yet.

[stellanoir]

1. Did you see this. . .?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/18video.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1203346318-gZfI/qIFtltC3C/qSZwCzg

[helderheid]

12. I love his response:

“It’s true that speeches don’t solve all problems,” he said. “But what is also true if we cannot inspire the country to believe again, it doesn’t matter how many policies and plans we have.”

[rocktivity]

19. The Times' source? "A rival campaign that did not want to be identified."

If the "evidence" in this case is so irrefutable, why was this accusation allowed to be made off the record? Both the rival campaign and the Times are pathetic desperate unprofessional cowards--how dare they try to hold Obama accountable while refusing to account for themselves. This will only result in sympathy for Obama.

:headbang:
rocknation

[elixir]

35. It's important to keep the facts straight and out there. This is the same stuff that hurt Joe biden

[Occam Bandage]

2. Patrick and Obama are friends. They frequently borrow each other's best lines.

[NashVegas]

4. That's Great for Comedians

For political speeches, not so much. Not unless Patrick is the running mate.

[ClassWarrior]

15. Sure, let's hobble ourselves once again over pettiness...

...while the RW embraces the powerful advertising maxim of repetition, repetition, repetition. :eyes:

NGU.

[rocktivity]

30. You can't have plagiarsim without a plagiarsim victim.

Axelrod and Patrick aren't complaining that they've been plagiarized--everyone else is!

:crazy:
rocknation

[MadBadger]

3. Is it Plagiarism if you get the okay from the other guy?

I mean normally one has to cite their sources, but they usually dont know the source and are able to talk to the source. Here, you have two guys that are friends. I mean isnt Patrick a National Co-Chair? (I could be wrong)

[UALRBSofL]

6. hnmnf I'm not sure. I mean I've never seen a rule

whether or not you can call it plagiarism or not if your friends with the person that originally made the speech.

[Divernan]

13. There are NO laws governing "plagiarism"

The law provides that you can copywrite your writings. So if someone publishes and copywrites material, then others cannot freely copy them and present them as their own original work. Schools and universities each have internal rules for plagiarizing papers, i.e, failing to formally footnote/quote research papers, and those rules are not identical and only apply to their enrolled students and salaried faculty members.

Laws are limited to written material because how on earth could one ever prove who was the first one to verbalize an idea or a phrase. Educated minds are not tabula rasa. To the contrary, we spend our lives reading, listening, discussing. When did I first come across the phrase "tabula rasa"? Who knows? In my high school Latin class, in a college philosophy lecture? In studying history?

Footnote: I credit Aristotle with originally referring to the "scraped tablet".

[elixir]

37. Rules or no rules, you don't copy off of someone else's paper....get real!!!!

[shadowknows69]

22. Patrick pretty much gave his permission right in the NYTimes piece

It doesn't matter if it was after the fact or not.

[Sulawesi]

5. if you and I were friends and colleagues, and you invited me to use the words in this post in a

speech, would that be plagiarism? If further, you said there would be no point in attributing the words to me, as I gave you candid advice on how to deal with a predictable criticism, would that be plagiarism? No. These are the facts.

So yes, it could backfire, but I do not concede this is plagiarism just because the speeches are similar...they talked to each other and discussed the text.

This is an orchestrated attack without merit, and you would think the Clinton camp would learn. It is the latest in a long string of stupid, negatively motivated, petty attacks that have helped put them in the uphill situation they are in.

As the Clinton camp throws mud in hopes that something sticks, more and more people see all this for what it is. Keep it up, by all means...

[ClassWarrior]

21. Actually, I've often asked DUers if I could use their words in LTTEs.

With permission, it's not plagiarism.

NGU.

[Mike Nelson]

7. the media is covering how great Bush is (backing mccain)

and how awful clinton is (supporting his wife)

same stuff, different decade

[UALRBSofL]

20. Mike Nelson I see that too

What's up with CNN covering all the repug stuff and Bush41 endorsements. etc.?

[Nedsdag]

8. One word:

YAWN!

This isn't "macaca." These are two politicians who happen to be friends and share the same political consultant.

If you and the other Hillbots are going to concentrate on something that is so miniscule, then you all need to be committed.

[Divernan]

9. Reuters; New Clinton economic message has echoes of Edwards

Divernan (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-18-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. From Reuters: New Clinton economic message has echoes of Edwards
That's the headline and here's the quote:

"Clinton is courting working-class voters with a new message of economic populism similar to the theme of John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator who dropped out of the Democratic race in January."
www.reuters.com/news/politics

Plagiarism is defined as copying some text and using it without indicating that it was copied or where it was copied from. Senator Edwards' populist positions are repeatedly laid out in his position papers, i.e., in writing. Has Clinton been saying: I got this message from John Edwards' platform and/or position papers?
Evidently not. And I don't really care.

The more important issue to me is whether she can be trusted to actually follow through on the populism themes. Based on her past actions in office, I don't think so. In the long run, she has long, strong, deep ties to the moneyed groups, and she has a long history of centrism and triangulating. At this point, after her touted 35 years of (non-populist)experience, her message of economic populism is campaign rhetoric and no more.

[Seabiscuit]

25. The article never said Clinton was copying text/words from Edwards' speeches.

It merely suggested that she's added a "populist" theme to her campaign that happens to remind the article's writer of how the press used to characterize Edwards' campaign.

Not even close to plagiarism.

OTOH, Obama has lifted entire phrases from Patrick's speeches, word for word, without indicating it was copied or where it was copied from. THAT is plagiarism.

[elixir]

36. AS well as plagarizing Alice Walker, see DailyKos link...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/18/82839/1980/755/458923

[aquarius dawning]

double post.

[aquarius dawning]

10. Clinton obviously has no control over what the MSM deems as newsworthy.

[flyarm]

11. excuse me but people do care..i just showed it to my non political hubby

and he was blown away by it..of course he has heard me say how Obama has stolen all of John Edwards ideas since Iowa..when i was on the ground there for Obama..but i just showed it to him..and my husband said..well just how stupid are the american people that they will put up with this kind of shit..and he shakes his head and walked away ..saying we get what we deserve.

yes people do care so please do not say people don't care..i damn well do and i have been saying this ever since Iowa..How Obama steals all his words from others..remember in Iowa Obama was ..HOPE...

Edwards campaign was "change"...by NH Obama stole John's "change"..

Obama is an empty suit...and the sooner americans wake up to that the better..Obama has gotten a free ride..by the public and the media..he is a liar and a plagiarist.

[MadBadger]

17. Ah yes, just like your old candidate, jealous that Obama stuck and he didnt.

[Divernan]

18. Every candidate in both parties is chanting: "Change".

nt

[mudesi]

23. Yes, and Clinton's actions killed millions of people

It's about who is worse, is it not?

Obama stole a speech from a good friend of his. Clinton is partly responsible for millions of deaths and refuses to admit it.

Why people focus on this utter nonsense is beyond me.

[ClassWarrior]

24. So the sheeple can be stampeded by lies and half-truths.

What's new?

NGU.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. Grow up.

[NC_Nurse]

14. I don't know if it's technically plagiarism, but it is pretty much

the same words. I think the OP is right, just make the Clinton campaign look petty and pathetic.

I'm not going to deny that it's the same. That's silly too. I just don't see the big scandal that the
Clinton supporters are hoping for.

[mudesi]

31. And it's going to backfire

I wonder if they really are hoping for a big scandal here. People know that Ms. Clinton is clinging to desperation at this point, and something like this is only going to make them more cynical towards her.

[islandmkl]

16. and don't be saying anything about 'dreams' or 'hope'...

yeah, that's right Barack...go find your own words. AYFKM? Plagiarism? New low in trying to find something, anything (Hello, It's Me) to make an inconsequential point a MAJOR F****** 'revelation'.

[terrya]

27. And you just went on ignore also.

I'm sick to death of reading how Hillary is singlehandedly responsible for the Iraq War.

[mudesi]

28. Ignored

And I'm sick to death of reading about the latest casualty from Iraq. We have different priorities, you and me.

[BeyondGeography]

29. Denigrating the value of oratory and two of America's top black leaders in the process

They are so fucked if we send them into the general needing to mend fences for using these kinds of tactics.

[Enrique]

32. it's no big deal to me

but if it were Clinton, it would be a major scandal.

[scheming daemons]

33. Definition of Plagiarism

pla·gia·rism /ˈpleɪdʒəˌrɪzəm, -dʒiəˌrɪz-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.
2. something used and represented in this manner.


Not the word unauthorized.

Since the source of the lines, Axelrod & Davis, have given him AUTHORIZATION, it therefore isn't plagiarism.

Case closed.

[elixir]

34. This is a factor BO will have to deal with just like Joe Biden did. BO is not made of teflon.