Why Students Get "Failed" or Even Expelled for Plagiarism

[NashVegas]

We are a nation that was built on ideas.

As such, our individual ideas are our calling cards, our opportunities for advancement (in theory, anyway); they demonstrate our uniqueness in a nation that (allegedly) prizes unique expression.

We think so highly of original ideas we allow and encourage people to patent and copyright them.

If Obama had said, "as my good friend from Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, said ..." it would have been no big deal. Sure his detractors could accuse him of not being original, but that's all.

By not crediting Patrick, it becomes an idea that was stolen. With Patrick's blessing, it becomes the equivalent of propping. Like a college student who borrows a paper from someone who'd already taken the class. Just because the kid who wrote the original is aware and okays it, doesn't mean the prof isn't going to have your ass when they catch on.

In short, it's an honor thing. And we expect our presidential candidates to at least put up a show of pandering to it.

[IndianaJones]

1. good points. nt.

[Occam Bandage]

2. What I find extraordinarily amusing about this thread

is that this is perhaps the dozenth thread posted in the last hour on plagiarism, with each making the exact same point.

[Tennessee Gal]

4. And if it were Hillary accused of this, you would be taking the exact

opposite point of view.

[Occam Bandage]

7. You'll not find me leaping on any smear-Hillary bandwagons.

[dkf]

8. Hillary's words are so bland that I'm sure 500 people have said it

before her, but we would never notice.

[chascarrillo]

12. Clinton? The candidate who lifted "Change?" "Yes We Can?"

Looks like you're taking the exact opposite point of view yourself.

[truedelphi]

60. Thanks for some wisdom - much needed here. n/t

[NashVegas]

14. If It Were Hillary

It'd be more like 35 threads, but that's besides the point.

[dkf]

6. lol.

If we all had to make original points there would be hardly any posts.

[Tennessee Gal]

3. "An honor thing"

Exactly the right point.

Good post.

[okasha]

67. And a character thing.

When I was teaching, the penalty for plagiarism in my classes was an automatic F in the course.

[stahbrett]

5. Unlike students, political candidate are not required to write their own speeches (eom)

[Cameron27]

11. But when political candidates

are caught lifting passages from someone's speech without acknowledgment, they damage their careers. Ask Joe Biden about it.

[NYCGirl]

17. But was Biden a friend of Neil Kinnock and Kinnock told him to use those words?

In a telephone interview on Sunday, Mr. Patrick said that he and Mr. Obama first talked about the attacks from their respective rivals last summer, when Mrs. Clinton was raising questions about Mr. Obama’s experience, and that they discussed them again last week.

Both men had anticipated that Mr. Obama’s rhetorical strength would provide a point of criticism. Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama’s speechwriters.

Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit.

“Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is,” said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. “It’s a transcendent argument.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/18video.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

[stahbrett]

22. Thanks for that! That's exactly what I figured had happened (eom)

[Cameron27]

37. Obama presented those words as his own,

without acknowledgment, and what's funny about it is that he was using them to challenge Clinton's remarks about words needing substance behind them. MLK's words were poignant and powerful because they were inspired by all his battles on the front lines.

This borrowing from Patrick wasn't a single occurance, and Obama's never ackowledged that his words were lifted from Patricks speeches.

[NYCGirl]

40. Yes, he asked Patrick whether he wanted credit, and Patrick said "no".

Read the post.

[Cameron27]

45. I read the post,

he didn't need to credit the words for Patrick's sake, he needed to credit those words for the sake of honesty to his audience.

[stahbrett]

20. Without permission would be a problem. Does Clinton acklowledge her speechwriters in every speech?

[Botany]

9. You are right honesty is important

So Hillary said that the Michigan vote will not count in Oct. of 2007
but now says that she has to honor the voters wishes .... was she
lying then or now?

BTW Some "faux professor" called Stephanie with this exact same talking
point this AM.

[9119495]

29. zing...

[NashVegas]

42. Don't You Just Hate

Smart people?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Clinton should start giving Obama credit when she steals his slogans then. nt

[Cameron27]

15. No one has a patent on the words hope

and change, they've been used by politicians since the beginning of time.

[Sulawesi]

13. They worked together on the speech. Isn't it an honor thing to trump up BS charges?

edited for grammar...

[Skidmore]

16. Does Hillary get expelled for lifting Obama campaign slogans wholesale?

[Cameron27]

19. Using slogans

is not comparable to borrowing entire passages from someone else's speeches.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. Nice try.

Why don't you go ahead and appropriate Coca Cola's or Nike's slogans for your own business and see what their lawyers say about it.

[Cameron27]

43. Do you mean like Obama

appropriated "si se puede" from the United Farm Workers?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. Actually, neither Obama nor Clinton are in violation

Per U.S. code:

Any person who shall, without the consent of the registrant—



a) use in commerce any reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation of a registered mark in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive; or

b) reproduce, counterfeit, copy, or colorably imitate a registered mark and apply such reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation to labels, signs, prints, packages, wrappers, receptacles or advertisements intended to be used in commerce upon or in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive, shall be liable in a civil action by the registrant for the remedies hereinafter provided.


Under subsection (b) hereof, the registrant shall not be entitled to recover profits or damages unless the acts have been committed with knowledge that such imitation is intended to be used to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive.

The slogans are not for commercial use or profit and there's no intent to deceive.

[chascarrillo]

28. One of the criticisms is over both Deval and Obama saying "work for change".

C'mon, now.

[WolverineDG]

30. Not when they're given to you

by the original speaker. Can't steal what's been given away for free.

dg

[surfermaw]

18. Joe Biden, lost the Presidency over a paper , he failed to give ref. for something he wrote in C.

Obama should have learned from Joe's college mistake, and it was a mistake, failure to give credit to someone.. A College kid's mistake, Obama is much older than Joe was.

[melody]

21. Oh, please!

There's such a thing as obvious homage. If I'm giving a speech and I say "Ask not what your country can do for
you, ask what you can do for your country", I'm not required to say "JFK said". Everyone knows who said it.
Obama's people clearly are familiar with Patrick's speeches.

This small a segment could also have been cryptomnesia. Just ask the ghost of George Harrison how easy it is
for a genuinely gifted person to plagiarize via that method (in his case, a melody).

The only people seizing on this are Obama's enemies.

I should add that I'm a writer and HATE genuine plagiarists.

[dsc]

44. that is ludricrious

I guarentee you I could ask 100 Obama supporters in Wisconsin (where this speech was given) and not a one could quote a word from Deval Patrick. That vast majority wouldn't know who he was any more than the vast majority of Clinton supporters would know who Ted Strickland is.

[melody]

52. Just because 100 supporters don't know him doesn't mean his true insiders don't

Those are the people who help shape a campaign -- his first circle supporters aren't the people out walking precincts.

I defended Hillary staunchly to the people unfairly attacking her record in the senate but this is far more childish and
clearly, baselessly punitive -- and yes ludicrous -- than that.

[dsc]

64. The speech wasn't to his campaign insiders

it was to a crowd of his supporters. I don't consider it the end of the world, but as a teacher I am very disturbed by the notion that it is OK to copy if the person you copy from is OK with it.

[melody]

65. I'm a writer. I post some work on the net. I'm plagiarized constantly -- this is not plagiarism

It's not even close. It's conscious use of a known phrase and concept, done with the conscious collaboration of the initiator of it. If I choose to let someone base a speech on mine, it's my choice to make -- it is NOT plagiarism.

And I said the speech was shaped by insiders, not given to them.

[dsc]

66. and the audience

like the teacher, has a right to know whose speech it is being given to them.

[melody]

69. The audience doesn't care ... so long as the net effect is positive

And so long as the writer doesn't care, it shouldn't be a problem, unless one wants to make it a problem
for some petty political reason.

[tishaLA]

23. This is just historically wrong

In the earliest moments of our nation, and in the period leading up to the construction of the nation, "originality" was not prized as it is today; "originality" as such may be an invention of late capitalism, but that is another point. What our nation was built on, in fact, was redundancy, which is why the republican (small r) model was so important: it looked back to the Greeks. Our educational system also looked back to the Greeks and Romans--one of the great feats in the early republic was the ability to correctly recite entire speeches by Cicero, for example, and a famous early American novel, Wieland, makes a big joke over the misconjugation of a verb in one of the character's oral performance of Cicero's speech. It is not coincidental that this novel is concerned primarily ventriloquism, because the great trick of ventriloquism is the ability to repeat not only words, but inflection and tone.

There are a good number of books about this topic. I'd recommend Jay Fliegelman's Declaring Independence and Christopher Looby's Voicing America.

[NashVegas]

38. We'd Never Have Gotten Anywhere

If all we ever did was quote Plato and Locke.

[tishaLA]

41. You ignore my point entirely

[NashVegas]

51. I Disagree

And happen to think your point is irrelevant.

I stated the US was built on ideas. This is true.

I stated that for advancement (that is, practical advancement: social, economical, and if we're talking higher education) having and being able to express original ideas was so prized that we set up patents and copyrights. You would argue against that? Really?

Knowing and understanding the underlying classic knowledge was necessary, but my point is that in order to go anywhere, you had / have to be able to jump off from there and carve your own territory. Anything less is a hack.

[tishaLA]

57. I'm saying that historically "unique expression" and

"individual ideas" were not the things upon which the nation was built (these are the first two sentences of your post proper). In fact, it is just the opposite: expression was supposed to be repetitive and classical republicanism always looked back to the Greeks cf. Bernard Bailyn, The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution or JGA Pocock The Machiavellian Moment.

My understanding of copyright laws differs somewhat from yours. I have always learned that copyright laws, whatever they now "protect," came about to protect publishers. They still do protect publishers, of course, but part of that protection to the capitalist market has an ancillary benefit of protecting writers.

[NashVegas]

58. Then You Misread The Post

Because that's not how I wrote it, and it remains unedited.

I would encourage you to re-read that passage.

[tishaLA]

59. I'm confident in my reading of it

and of my understanding of the construction of copyright law.

[bicentennial_baby]

24. "Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit."

Straight from the NYT story. Plagiarism has to be unauthorized, and this was not. There is no there there.

[ShortnFiery]

25. This is BUNK. Most older DUers realize that "this dog won't hunt." ... Ask Joe Biden?

Senator Joe Biden had to pay a "dear price" for trumped up plagiarism charges. The Democratic Electorate won't fall for such a superficial "witch hunt" again, especially from OTHER DEMOCRATS. :thumbsdown: :eyes:

[UALRBSofL]

27. Crisco, when you write term papers or a thesis paper

Of course you have to site every source. They use a source searcher that's automated and can pick it up pretty quick. However, I don't know if there is really any rules that state you must give credit to a person for things you say in a speech. I guess it's just a common courtesy thing.

[NashVegas]

36. When You Write *Any* Paper

Doesn't matter if it's a 300 word essay.

[no_hypocrisy]

31. At Sweet Briar College, which has an Honor Code, you risk expulsion

for lack of appropriate footnotes on your papers. On each paper, you write "I Pledge" and sign your name. The pledge is you claim all work is your own and if it isn't, you give appropriate citation.

[Botany]

34. So when Hillary gives a speech does she site her speech writers?

Please.

[no_hypocrisy]

47. The two situations are distinguishable.

When one "borrows" from another without giving a citation versus employs them to write on one's behalf, the former is taking full credit for the imagination, the intellect, the analysis, and the organization of thought involved as opposed to a "front man" found in the latter situation.

[Benhurst]

49. There was a time when I would have expected more from an

honored Harvard Law School graduate.

But it's been almost eight years now since Harvard Business School graduate George Walker Bush stole his way into the White House. While I'm shocked by Obama's plagiarism, I'm hardly surprised.

And Barak need not fear Joe Biden's fate. Over the past twenty years, the country has degenerated considerably, "dumbed-down" as a word-smith Obama might say. He shall suffer no consequences.

[LulaMay]

32. EXACTLY....All one need do is credit source. Any english teacher will tell you. Or it's plagiarism

[UALRBSofL]

33. I know this, they do it at any University

Were talking about a speech. There is a bit of a difference. I'm thinking it's common courtesy. I don't know actually.

[RunningFromCongress]

35. umm a speach and an assigned paper for a class are not even close to the same thing

[NashVegas]

39. Newsflash:

The school version is a rehearsal.

[madrchsod]

48. so obama is expelled from school?

will he be able to appeal his expulsion? will he be given permission to enroll next semester? when will he have to start paying back his student loans?

[JTFrog]

50. Has she checked for plagiarism in his kindergarden papers? I bet she could nail him there! n/t

[NYCGirl]

54. And I heard he stole his friend's crayons, too!

:rofl:

[truedelphi]

62. My crayons! Those were mine!

:toast:

[calmblueocean]

53. Collaboration is not plagiarism, no matter how many times you repeat the charge.

Smear all day if you want.

[RamboLiberal]

55. If Hillary and her supporters have to reach this low

you sure are in trouble. You know a lot of you are so pissing off this voter I may decide not to vote for Hillary even if she does get the nom via the primaries. This is muckraking at it's finest.

[HeraldSquare212]

56. They also get failed for failing big tests - like the Iraq War Vote.

[blogslut]

61. Ecclesiastes 1:9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

- King James Bible

[Eric J in MN]

63. Writing is different than giving a speech.

Books have footnotes. Blog posts have links. Speeches have neither.

[NorthernSpy]

68. ONLY because it breaks the rules of enrollment of the school...

My words are my own -- which means that unless I've entered into a binding agreement not to, I'm free to sell them or give them to other people to use they see fit. If it were not so, then it would be tough to make a living by writing.


If Obama has Patrick's permission to use his turn of phrase, then Patrick is in essence acting as a writer for Obama. Patrick's words belong to Patrick, and he may allow others to use them as he chooses. Who are you -- or anyone -- to question that?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

70. well, i'm gonna take Patrick on his word i think

In a telephone interview on Sunday, Mr. Patrick said that he and Mr. Obama first talked about the attacks from their respective rivals last summer, when Mrs. Clinton was raising questions about Mr. Obama’s experience, and that they discussed them again last week.

Both men had anticipated that Mr. Obama’s rhetorical strength would provide a point of criticism. Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama’s speechwriters.

Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit.

“Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is,” said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. “It’s a transcendent argument.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/18video.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&loc=interstitialskip&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1203357935-Z0TqSaRg+yvbRzSej7CBKQ&oref=slogin

[Moochy]

71. This is so yesterday

your shillometer is set for 2/17/2008.

Haven't you heard? Michele Obama Hates America!

[yourguide]

72. I would imagine

the same students would be expelled for voting us into a war with no evidence of WMD as well.