If all Obama changes is "attitudes" then That's Good Enough for me

[Armstead]

IMO the biggest enemy we face is not the GOP. It's not even the corporations who have been smart enough and brazen enough to take over the system.

The biggest enemies are apathy, cycnicism and fatalism. Those attitudes are what enable those with power and wealth to use the system for their own gains at the expense of everyone else.

Following all of the hopes, drama and turmoil and failures of the 60's and early 70's, the United States basically gave up. We were like a nation of whipped dogs who cower in the corner.

Hope became cynicism.

Idealism became irony.

Leaders were dismissed as out-of-touch crooks who were gaming the system with no thoughts of public service.

Selfness was replaced by selfishness as the basis of moral and social values.

"They're all the same." "Nothing will change." "The system is rigged against the little guy, and always will be." "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

Regardless of whether or not Obama is as progressive as many of us would like, he will make an immense and positive difference if he is able to translate the enthusiasm of his campaign into a more widespread transformation that restores the attitude of cynicism with a more hopeful and productive sense of national purpose.

[MADem]

1. Bush changed attitudes, too. Was that good enough for ya?

:eyes:

Hope, idealism, none of that shit puts food in the fridge or pays the heat bill.

He's long on platitudes, and short on substance.

[AX10]

2. True.

[dkf]

4. Hope and idealism bind people together to work for a common cause.

Don't be deluded. Hillary Clinton cannot get anything done by herself either. To think she can do magic is crazy.

[bellasgrams]

17. Hillary won't have to use 'magic', she has the know-how to

lead. BO is the one who will have to use magic because he doesn't have the know-how. We all live in this country why on earth would anyone want a man with no real back ground to try to lead this country out of this mess? It's going to be hard after 8 yrs of Bush, we certainly don't want a novice at this time. Look what a jerk Bush has been. BO has the same arrogant, stubborn personality, and less experience than Bush had, why do that to our country again. Words, lifted from JFK, & MLK and using JFK's speech writer would solve the country's problems.

[stahbrett]

54. Examples of how "she has the know-how to lead"?

I haven't seen many positive examples of that from Hillary Clinton. I've seen her fail miserably in health-care reform in the early 90's (with a Democratic Congress). I've seen her run a campaign for President that has all but yanked defeat from the jaws of victory. Poor planning, no "Plan B" in case "Plan A" failed, devotion to those due to loyalty instead of competence - hmmm, those attributes seem familar - where have we seen them before? :)

[MADem]

30. Not if you think those are "JUST WORDS."

And it sure sounds like bullshit to me. It's easier to repeat slogans than get specific.

No one--save you, with that nonsensical interjection--is claiming that Clinton can "do magic" here. She does provide specifics, though, and her supporters actually KNOW her positions.

[Armstead]

6. Guess what? I believe Reagan was a successful president.

And Bush was briefly a successful president before he blew it.

I realize this may be too subtle for you, but "Hope" and "Idealism" are neutral qualities, seperate and apart from the values they may be based on.

By themselves, they accomplish nothing. But they are necessary as a STEP TOWARDS more concrete actions to make positive real changes that will "put food in the fridge."

[MADem]

27. You think Bush and Reagan were successful? I think you took a wrong turn, there.

Reagan was successful in fucking up our country to the point that we still feel his boot on our neck today. Every time you see a homeless fucker under a bridge, Thank Ronnie. Every time you look at a catsup bottle, Thank Ronnie--it's a vegetable, you know. You don't remember the deficit--that massive, honking ballooning deficit? You don't remember the rise of local taxes in response to his asinine slash-and-burn poliicies? You don't remember the decimation of social services? The removal of safety nets?

:eyes:

Reagan was a great president, all right--great at FUCKING the elderly, the poor, the disabled, and children. And lets not even talk about his swell approach to HIV. Yeah, he was a PRINCE on that score!

And Bush was an empty suit, a MORON. From the GET GO. Briefly a successful President? That's some strong Kool Aid. The BEST anyone could say about him was that it wouldn't be "too bad" so long as "nothing happened."

I think you're looking for the room down the hall to the right....they aren't serving that shit around here.

[Armstead]

31. I think you are in denial

What Reagan and the GOP have accomplished over the last 35 years has been awful. Terrible. Disgusting.

Do you need some more adjectives, or is it getting through to you yet?

BUT Reagan was successful in setting goals, convincing the nation to agree with them, and then carrying them out and transforming the nation in the process.

If you choose to deny that reality, then you will never grasp what will be required to accomplish the same to achieve liberal/progressive transformation.

P.S. I should probably have not included Bush. My reference to him was to that brief period after 9-11 when he did achieve his goals by convincing the nation, such as invading Iraq.

[MADem]

37. Only you can call "awful, terrible, disgusting" accomplishments "successful."

Now you're trying to backtrack. What a load!!!

By your account, then, Hitler was successful for a time. Mussolini, too. Sadddam. They set goals, they convinced their nations to agree with them.

You're trying to CHANGE the inherent meaning of the word "successful."

But then, that fluid, slogan-laden, goalpost-moving shit is common around here of late.

And you've got the brass ping-pong balls to suggest I am denying reality? While spouting a bullshit, meaningless, kool-aid acolyte phrase like "liberal/progressive transformation?"

That's rich.

You try paying your light bill bill with that "liberal/progressive transformation" there, pal.

:rofl:

[Armstead]

46. "The era of Big Government is over...."

When Bill Clinton repeated that message of Ronald Reagan in the 90's, and when in his 92 campaign Clinton repudiated liberalism at a time when it most needed defending and reinforcing.

And if you donlt think the nation needs a liberal/progressive transformation to begin to undo the damage that has been done to the country over the last 35 years, than you are more in denial than I originally thought.

[MADem]

55. And the "Children's Candidate" shall lead us?

Fine, he can pay my light bill with his Hope, and fill my refrigerator with his CHANGE.

You're in for a huge disappointment.

It's part of the growing-up process, to find out that Santa doesn't exist.

Obama is an old school Chicago pol, dressed up in a pretty fresh wrapper.

[Forkboy]

24. Why hold ideals at all then?

And if you have a reason to hold on to them despite the cynicism and cold hard facts of life, as I do, then you must realize that alone is good for something. :shrug:

[MADem]

33. You go on and pay your light bill with them, then--but don't be surprised if

they aren't accepted as the currency of the day.

[Forkboy]

42. Still doesn't answer my question.

Why hold them at all then if they don't do anything?

[MADem]

44. If you want them to DO something, you have to "hold" them along with

concrete plans--and the "Children's Candidate" is shy on those, and his supporters can't even tell anyone where he stands on ANYTHING--especially if they're away from a computer and can't frantically "google" an answer. It's NOTICEABLE.

Words like hope and change are bullshit without DEEDS, blueprints, plans, decision points, that make those words mean something.

We've suffered for two terms under the King Of Words, after all. For an inarticulate fuckstick, Bush has sure done a great job of selling the "War is Peace" and "Fear is Security" themes, hasn't he? He's not shy on ideals, certainly.

That's worked out real well for us, hasn't it? All those swell words, and ideals? 4,000 dead Americans might say otherwise, if they could.

[Forkboy]

48. Thank you for the answer.

Bush is a tool, and those controlling him most definitely had more than words and ideals as well, despite the ignorant, golly gee shucks mask that Bush provides them. They had plans and decisions and blueprints too.

Both our choices are so similar that I can't see the hate you direct at him, nor the hate Obama fans direct at Hillary. Policy wise you'll both be pretty well taken care of. Neither is a saviour, and neither is a disaster. The black and white thinking, us or them, is pointless to me. When I see stuff like your last line I just think of Hillary voting for it. It doesn't make me like or dislike Obama any more or less. Same with "Children's Candidate." If you think that represents the "Adult Candidate" in a good light then I don't know what to tell you other than, "Good luck with that." :shrug:

[Armstead]

47. Please explain how Hillary is going to pay my light bill?

[MADem]

60. She's not gonna hand you a plateful of HOPE and make you BELIEEEEEEEVE!

Heal, Voter, HEAL!!!!

No, seriously--here's how she says she will do it: http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/pdf/20080218_economic1.pdf

Excerpts (the whole thing is a good read):

• Extending and broadening unemployment insurance to help
those who have lost their jobs and are struggling to find work.
• Providing an average of $650 in emergency energy assistance
to the 37 million families that are struggling the most with
skyrocketing energy bills this winter.
• Making immediate investments to jumpstart green collar job
growth, including a program to weatherize homes, retrofit public
buildings and train green collar workers.



• Creating at least 5 million new green collar jobs by
transitioning from a carbon-based economy to a green,
energy-efficient economy. Hillary believes that by investing
in clean energy and energy efficiency we can unleash a wave
of private sector innovation and create at least 5 million new
green collar jobs over the next decade. She has laid out a
bold, long-term strategy to catalyze clean energy industries
here in the U.S. and invest in making our homes, schools and
buildings energy efficient.

• Investing in infrastructure to ensure our safety, enhance our
economic competitiveness, and create good jobs. New Orleans,
the Minnesota bridge collapse, and the recent levee break in
Nevada are all reminders that we have failed to invest sufficiently
in our infrastructure. Hillary has presented a plan that calls for
more than $10 billion in funding to help states review and repair
their critical infrastructure; modernizing seaports; expanding
funding for public transit and intercity rail; incentivizing
environmentally sensitive land use policies; and a greater focus
on reducing congestion.

• Ending tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas,
and investing those resources in the innovative potential
of our own economy. Hillary believes that investing in
innovation is a key to creating the jobs of the future, stimulating
economic growth, and ensuring American leadership in new
industries. Hillary’s plan calls for establishing a national
broadband strategy; creating a $50 billion Strategic Energy
Fund; doubling the research budgets at the major federal
agencies; strengthening education from pre-K to post-graduate
study; making the Research and Experimentation tax credit
permanent; and restoring integrity to science by ending the Bush
Administration’s war on science.

• Restore a strong, vibrant manufacturing sector in America.
Hillary firmly believes that we cannot remain a great country
with a strong economy if we don’t make things in America. As
co-chair of the Senate Manufacturing Caucus, Hillary knows
and understands both the challenges and opportunities facing
American manufacturing. As President, she will work to develop
a manufacturing strategy that meets our new needs in the 21st
century. She will invest in development of processes and products
that could lower costs, improve efficiencies, and create more jobs
in our manufacturing base and keep America competitive. She
will expand the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, which for a
$100 million investment yields $910 million in new investments
and trains or retrains 50,000 workers. And she will provide $20
billion in Green Vehicle Bonds to help American auto companies
retool the oldest auto plants to meet her strong efficiency
standards, while addressing retiree health legacy costs with tax
credits for qualifying private and public retiree health plans.
Providing Real Economic Security for Hardworking Americans

• Providing quality, affordable health care to every single
American. Senator Clinton recognizes that healthcare is the
biggest economic burden facing many American families and
businesses. Her American Health Choices Plan will help lower
the burden on middle-class families and ensure our ongoing
economic competitiveness by aggressively cutting health care
costs and finally covering every single American - no one will
be left out. For those with health care, Hillary’s plan will lower
costs and improve quality. For those without, it will offer new
choices from the same menu of private plans currently available
to members of Congress. Her plan will provide generous tax
credits to ensure healthcare is affordable for everyone, and will
ban insurance company discrimination, so no one will ever again
be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Under
Senator Clinton’s plan, small businesses would get a new tax
credit to help them afford health care for their employees.

• A Generous Matching 401(k) Plan for All Americans. Hillary
understands that saving and building wealth can be the key to
the American dream - the difference between just getting by and
getting ahead. Yet today, more than half of America’s workers
don’t have an employer-sponsored retirement account, and
millions of Americans are not saving or investing anything at
all. Hillary has a plan to take on our national savings crisis by
giving all Americans an opportunity to save and build wealth for
retirement that is as easy, secure and generous as is offered by
good employer-sponsored 401(k)s. Under the plan, working and
middle class families who currently have the hardest time saving
will get up to $1000 in matching tax cuts as an incentive to save.
And all middle class Americans will get to open new American
Retirement Accounts that will be designed to provide no-hassle,
portable savings throughout their careers.

• Making College Affordable for All. In our 21st century
economy, a college education is more important than ever.
That is why Hillary has outlined a comprehensive plan to make
college more affordable and accessible so that every American
has the chance to get a college degree. Her plan includes a new
$3,500 college tax credit that will cover more than 50 percent of
the typical cost of public colleges and universities, or the full cost
of tuition and fees for community colleges. She would increase
the size of Pell Grants, strengthen our community colleges, and
invest $500 million to support innovative, on-the-job training and
apprenticeship programs for those who don’t attend college.

[grasswire]

3. if there was less arrogance, even Dems might support him.

Honestly, the arrogance of Obama and his supporters has turned off a whole huge number of Dems who initially supported other candidates.

If I were to see a humble, earnest campaign I might be able to feel some confidence in the man.

But the cold, bitter immaturity of his supporters and his own innate look of arrogance just turns me off. No thanks. We had exactly that with George W.

[Armstead]

8. I won't comment on that here because it's subjective

Anyone who runs for president is by nature arrogant. None of them is humble.

[grasswire]

10. I don't believe that.

Or perhaps our definitions of "arrogance" are different.

[Armstead]

12. The last humble president or candidate I can recall was Gerald Ford

[Tatiana]

45. One person's "look of arrogance" could seem like another's look of confidence. n/t

[MADem]

51. I'm with you.

They're like those "Lord of the Flies" kids. Brutish little things.

I'm not enamoured of the "Children's Candidate." And as each day passes, I am less enamoured. And his "supporters" have a little--not a lot, but a little--to do with that impression.

[Armstead]

58. Lord of the Flies? LOL

My, my. A Children's Crusade.

And the Hillary supporters are so polite and civil.

[MADem]

59. That's an honest view.

Obama supporters do act like petulant little bullies. They make no effort to sell anyone on their candidate, they simply DEMAND obedience and fealty...and they do, in my opinion, remind me of the "Kill the PIG" little shitheads, dancing round the fire in LOTF, when confronted with anyone who challenges their worldview.

[Armstead]

61. Some are, so are some Hillary supporters and supporters of anyone else

[Raven]

5. Absolutely! Attitudes have to change first, then real change will come.

You have perfectly described the mood of this country. I heard it over and over again before the 2004 election when I was canvassing. People weren't going to vote because, in their minds, it wouldn't make a difference. Now people are registering to vote in droves. This is a very good thing!

[bellasgrams]

34. It's not so good when many of the people seem to be living in

a fairytale world and they listen to some guy who has JFK's speech writer telling him what to say. He has no substance. He's arrogant and stubborn just like Bush, only Bush had a little more experience in the business and economic world.

[robbedvoter]

7. I think it depends on the nature of change. If this forum is any indication,

it's hardly the kind of change I wanted in the democratic party. Didn't help GOP much...

[Armstead]

11. Well...

As my choice of Bernie Sanders as an avatar indicates, it's not exactly the kind I wanted either. Far from it.

But I do believe that before anything can be accomplished, it's necessary for the public to shake off the cynicism and dead-end fatalism of the last 35 years.

[bellasgrams]

38. Get BO out of the race and you'll see a lot of happy faces

[Dave From Canada]

9. Yes We Can, give $694,000 to superdelegates! So much for "change" and ending politics as usual.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/obama-clinton-s.html

[ProSense]

14. That means Obama gave three times more financial support to Dems up for reelection than Hillary did!

What’s happening to Hillary’s campaign?

[End Of The Road]

13. The fundies would disagree with you

It was in the 70s and 80s that fundie cynicism became hope and then power. Don't discount them -- they are a huge voting block. How is Obama going to turn them around?

This is NOT, I repeat NOT, a criticism of Obama!! Hillary won't turn the fundies around, either. It is simply a plea that we all work harder on our critical thinking skills.

[Armstead]

15. We need the same kind of qualities on our side

As I noted in a post above, "hope" and idealism are neutral qualities.

Although I believe most of their goals and values are wrong, the fundies do deserve credit for believing in something and working their butts off to advance those beliefs. That is because they were idealistic and hopeful.

[ClericJohnPreston]

16. Yeah, thats what we need....

NATIONALISM......that worked real well in past attempts didn't it.

By the way, the hallmark of NATIONALISM is INTOLERANCE, the essence of Obamites to contrary opinion or beliefs. How very NATIONALISTIC.

[Armstead]

19. I did not use the word nationalism

I said the POPULATION of the United States became like whipped dogs.

I did support a stronger sense of national purpose.

You are being narrow minded if you don't acknowledge the difference between nationalism and unifying purposes of the people in a nation.

[ClericJohnPreston]

36. And those societies which tried what you suggest

usually became xenophobic and used some minority to rally against, while they found their sense of "national purpose".

Bad idea, unless you are talking about the Great Depression and FDR.

Unfortunately, the distance between Obama and FDR is comparable to the distance between Reagan and FDR. Obama is no FDR and don't start making that false analogy.

[Armstead]

49. You're even more of an ideologue than I am

When I mentioned national purpose I had in mind things like the New Deal, Social Security, Medicare, the War on Poverty....etc.

If that's not radical enough for you, then I'm sorry.

[NastyRiffraff]

18. Good enough?

How long do you think those "attitudes" are going to last if he doesn't follow through with real policy changes? Obama is a POLITICIAN, not a miracle worker who changes anyone's basic attitudes with nothing behind them. All those people who are buying "hope and change" now will justifiable expect something other than "my attitude has changed! THANK YOU Obama!"

[Armstead]

21. Good enough for a start....

You miss my point if you interpret what I said as it is all we need.

If Obama as a candidate and president is able to make peopeo believe that politics can be relevant and that there is an opportunity to make positive changes, then that is good enough as a FIRST STEP towards more tangible accomplishments down the line.

[NastyRiffraff]

39. Well, I can't read your mind, so...

I "interpreted" what you actually wrote. Glad you clarified here, though.

[WillyT]

20. Hear, Hear !!! - K & R !!!

:applause:

[mtnsnake]

22. No one, not even Obama, will change a single attitude without actually DOING something first

It's one thing to talk the talk, but walking the walk is another. So far, all he is is a pile of words that's got a bunch of people all starry eyed.

When it comes to transfoming all his inspirational words into actions, we'll find out soon enough if Obama is anywhere to be found.

[Armstead]

25. Yes we will find out

We would also find out if Hillary walks her talk if she wins.

So what's your point?

[mtnsnake]

32. My point? Glad you asked....A real leader inspires by doing, not just by talking

So far, Senator Obama is really nothing more than a pile of words that his supporters have bought into. When it comes time for actions to take precedence, and that time will be coming soon, we'll see what he's really made of, but until that time comes, he's nothing but talk, period.

[LulaMay]

23. Well it's not enough for my best friend who has no health insurance you blithley dismiss

[Armstead]

26. Oh your friend doesn't matter.

That was sarcasm.

At the risk of repeating my original point, IN ORDER TO MAKE POSITIVE CHANGES IN THE REAL WORLD, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE PUBLIC SUPPORTS IT WITH HOPE AND IDEALISM AND ENTHUSIASM.

[LulaMay]

40. it's also important to elect someone who promises to get universal health care, HE DOESN'T

and I find her very idealistic, hopeful and DEFINITELY ENTHUSIASTIC. So do lots of others who don't fall for the phoney baloney, insulting "She's not likeable" sexist crapola.

[Armstead]

50. She doesn't really either

I believe both candidates should actually show some courage and lead a movement for universal single payer public healthcare.

But since they're both too chickenshit to do that, then Obama is smarter because he at least realizes that mandates are the biggest political obstacle to get any meaningful reform passed.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Well, garnishing people's wages is a big time general election loser

I can't believe the Clinton camp is clueless enough to be pushing for that during a time of such economic insecurity. Stuff like this proves that they are too out-of-touch to be effective or electable.

[LulaMay]

41. Huh, people loved FDR for creating Social Security. People want universal care.

and it makes even MORE sense to get it during a downtime when people have less, but still need it so much. Her plan does that at the lowest costs, by far. That is every analysis I've read.

People WANT IT.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. People want universal health care - not mandatory health insurance

People are fed up with getting the runaround by these corporations who pay their CEOs $million$$. What HRC is proposing amounts to the largest subsidy to corporate entities imaginable.

[kentuck]

29. Well said Armstead.

Sometimes I think Democrats have become so accustomed to being beaten down that they are perfectly content with any "victory" - no matter how small. We don't only need to beat this criminals and war-mongers, we need to beat them badly. Those that say that is not possible are the perfect examples of which you speak.

[Armstead]

35. Exactly

"Those that say that is not possible are the perfect examples of which you speak."

Nail on head.

[Whisp]

52. that is exactly why the establishment is shitting their pants.

good post, Arm. thanks.

you get it.

[noiretextatique]

53. i would add ignorance to your list of challenges

but i agree...if obama can inspire people to participate, that is a good first step. i am not a big fan of the "hope and change" message myself, but if it inspires others, i see that as a good thing.

[Zorra]

56. Yeah, a real famous German leader did that back in the '30s.

Personally, I'll take substance over style every time.

We went from the genuine substance of the Carter years to the destructive empty suit "optimism" of Ronald Reagan in a heartbeat.

It's like the Emperor's New Clothes.

No matter how many people believe in nothing, nothing is still nothing.

However, if a President Obama can translate the blind, cult-like allegiance of the largely uninformed into a mass movement toward genuine, healthy, transparent democracy - then, hey, I'm all for it.

Please, pardon my skepticism, but I just lived through two terms of Bu*h fascism.

My hope lies in the possibility that our next President will be substantially more progressive than either of our current Dem candidates outwardly indicate that they are.

[Armstead]

57. The Hitler comparison is off-base, but I agree with some of your post

"My hope lies in the possibility that our next President will be substantially more progressive than either of our current Dem candidates outwardly indicate that they are."

I agree with that. But that is also going to depend on enough people pressuring them to actually do something, which is where my original point was.

Also, Ronald Reagan (or his backers) did have substance. They had an ambitious agenda to move America to the right, and they achieved it. It was the wrong kind of substance, but it did have a substantial effect, which we are still struggling to overcome.....We need enthusiasm to begin to accomplish that.