I'm an academic who's dealt with plagiarism many times.

[kstewart33]

Technically, Obama plagiarized. If he had said something like, "As my good friend Deval Patrick has said..." before he launched his bit about words, he would have been fine.

However, how serious is this? Profs make judgement calls like this all the time. I've done so many times in making the decision about how to penalize a student who's plagiarized (I taught college level business courses for about 20 years). Should I flunk him/her on the paper, flunk him/her in the course, or take even more serious action?

If Obama were my student, I'd call him in and slap him on the wrist. I'd probably cut his paper by a letter grade, and give him a verbal swift kick on the butt. But that would be it. And that's how the press and public should handle it.

The guy is no saint. He makes mistakes especially under the pressures of a presidential campaign. But unfortunately, the media will play this up until they've beaten it to death for the simple reason that it's just the kind of story they love to cover. It requires no effort at all, it's taylor-made for sensationalizing, and the talking heads can drone on and on for days. Ratings, ratings.

[usregimechange]

1. Yes, he owes Bob the Builder an apology

[Connie_Corleone]

2. Obama/Bob the Builder 08!!

[jillan]

3. All I can say is that it is a good thing that Maureen Dowd is on his side.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NC_Nurse]

Maybe it's their speechwriters who are ignorant.

They should have inserted the reference to Deval Patrick's words and avoided this whole bullshit
"crisis". :eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

20. Patrick himself suggested the lines be added. Certainly it would have been

wise to cite Patrick, as he had already delivered those lines in public before.

[NC_Nurse]

51. Exactly. That's all I'm saying. It would have been wise. Lots of people

neglect to do that these days and it really avoids a lot of hassle if you are sure to site
sources, in written and spoken pieces.

[scheming daemons]

5. In the last debate, Hillary said "It takes a Clinton to clean up after a Bush"....

...this phrase was repeated on DU MANY times in the days BEFORE the debate.

In the debate, Hillary did not attribute the words to the original source... which was NOT her.



Just sayin'....

[Occam Bandage]

8. She had come up with that line earlier.

[blm]

6. As campaigns wittle down ALL pols borrow the best ideas and phrasings from others

it's been going on forever - and Clinton camp should know because they certainly lifted many of Kerry's popular phrasings on healthcare, the environment, national security and economy.

[RoadRage]

7. I continue to hear that plagerism requiers you to take something as your own "without permission"..

it seems as though Obama had plenty of permission on the few lines he did take. How do you plagerize, if the original author allows permission for it, and is happy to give it?

[MonkeyFunk]

12. Because the offense is not only to the person

from whom one plagiarizes, but to the audience the plagiarizer is addressing.

In college, if your roommate gives you permission to hand in his paper for a class, it's still plagiarism.

[scheming daemons]

26. Um.... Political Speeches are not PAPERS.....

...Does Hillary open every speech with "My speechwriters say...."


If not, she fits your definition of plagiarism... unless she writes every word of every speech herself.

[MonkeyFunk]

35. No

but speechwriters provide works for hire. Just like a late-night talk show host isn't plagiarizing his writers.

Nonetheless, it is possible for one to commit plagiarism in a speech. Joe Biden got in big trouble for doing it. I was merely refuting the point that permission means it can't be plagiarism. That's untrue.

[Occam Bandage]

40. Speechwriters do provide works for hire. Patrick provided the words in question. No plagiarism.

[MonkeyFunk]

49. I don't understand your point

and I'm not discussing anything specific about the Obama/Patrick case here. I was merely arguing that having permission from the originator does not automatically preclude the charge of plagiarism.

[Occam Bandage]

52. I agree with that statement, but am ensuring that there is a clear line between

that hypothetical and the Obama/Patrick case.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Really?

"I was merely arguing that having permission from the originator does not automatically preclude the charge of plagiarism."

Could you provide an example, please?

[MonkeyFunk]

60. Here's a hypothetical:

I'm in high school. I have to write a paper on "Hamlet".

My brother wrote a paper on "Hamlet" for his class, with a different teacher.

He gives me permission to hand in his paper.

I do. Plagiarism, with permission.

As I explained, the offense is NOT to the originator (in this case, my brother), but to the audience (in this case, my teacher).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Ah, but would that be plagiarism?

It'd definitely be cheating, but not, I think, plagiarism in the strict sense.

[MonkeyFunk]

70. What if I lift one particularly

compelling paragraph from him?


Come on, be rasonable. I'm not attacking Obama. I'm merely saying that permission is not an absolute defense against a charge of plagiarism, as some here are saying.

[Occam Bandage]

72. Yes. Plagiarism is about acknowledgment, not permission.

[Occam Bandage]

62. If you buy a research paper off the internet, or if you turn in an essay a friend wrote

in the previous semester.

[RoadRage]

38. Obama's not in college.. he's giving speeches to 20,000 people at a time

He also quotes MLK and JFK without specifically spelling out their names each time. Why wasn't he called a plagerizer then? You can quote famous people without permission, and it's OK, but friends, it's not OK?

Further more.. the only people who care much about this are Clinton supporters, because they're grasping at straws. No one on her "team" seemed to mind when she took a few lines from Obama without permission, and without giving him credit. Where were all of you then?

[MonkeyFunk]

55. Yes

you actually CAN quote famous lines without a charge of plagiarism.

And frankly, I don't care about this issue. I haven't brought it up, I haven't accused anyone of anything.

I'm merely arguing the fine point that having permission does not preclude a charge of plagiarism.

[usregimechange]

14. Plus he used about two words that I likely used yesterday

[LadyVT]

17. It's not permission, it's ATTRIBUTION that's needed...

the point is, you don't represent a quote from someone else as having been your own invention. That is misleading. If Obama plagiarizes, and people believe he is the one coming up with brilliant quotes (which were originally written by Einstein, the Hopi Elders, MLK, JFK, and others) that is MISLEADING to the American people, especially when he is running on a platform of integrity, honesty, and fairness.

All he has to do is attribute the quotes he uses, and for some reason, he has refused to do that, preferring, instead, for people to think HE came up with this stuff himself.

[Occam Bandage]

22. You honestly think people will not recognize "ask not," "I have a dream," and "nothing to fear?"

Some academic.

[Guaranteed]

88. The guy told him NOT to attribute- because nobody knows who he is. nt

[LadyVT]

9. I am also an academic, and at my University,

We have a policy about plagiarism. Students fail the course, and are referred to the Provost for further discipline. This was actually only one example of several (Maria Shriver's use of the Hopi Elders 'we are the change we seek' quote, which Obama adopted is one, but there are many, many--and I'm sure they will all be coming out soon). All he has to do is say, "as my friend Deval Patrick has said..." but somehow, he's not willing to do that. And he sure knows what he's doing--he's a lecturer at a University, himself.

The issue is not spurious. People who hear him (young voters who weren't around when the original speakers made their speeches from which he's plagiarizing) believe HE has made this stuff up. Of course that adds to the mystique of brilliance surrounding him. It's fine for him to be brilliant--let him come up with his own words.

[JCMach1]

13. Exactly, automatic 'F'- and the analogy shouldn't be a student here, but a graduate

researcher...

Obama CLEARLY knows better, but did it anyway.

[Occam Bandage]

24. Political speeches always use speechwriters. Speechwriters are never credited.

[JCMach1]

79. But I thought he made it up as he went along... at least that's what the MSM told me...

:sarcasm: intended...

Speechwriters also shouldn't plagiarize.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Do you demand that each candidate credit speechwriters for lines they did not write?

[LadyVT]

25. Only if the speechwriter's speech was previously published--

you can look up the definition for plagiarism--it is extensive.

[scheming daemons]

30. The definition includes the word "UNAUTHORIZED"....

...If Deval Patrick authorized Obama to use those words, then it doesn't meet the definition of plagiarism.



For a supposed "academic", you sure can't read a dictionary too well.

[amborin]

61. post hoc

authorizing the plagiarism after the fact does not count

obama plagiarized

he failed to attribute his ideas, words, etc.... to their true author

he mislead his audience by leading them to think he, obama, originated those ideas and words

getting the true author to "authorize" this after the fact does not count a rats

you can't go back and un-do the deed

[Occam Bandage]

Previous publication is not a prerequisite.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. Because this is a stump speech, not a research paper...

Do you think he's going to interrupt the cadence of his delivery to provide "verbal footnotes" for a pack of gibbering idiots who only want to find fault with him? And who would then probably accuse him of not using the most current MLA style?

The purpose of his speech is to fire up his supporters and to pursuade those who are still pursuadable to vote for him. The purpose is not to demonstrate his intellectual pedigree or provide adequate documentation or his sources. The fact is that people (including Patrick Deval) really don't give two shits that Patrick Deval said something similar.

Those who trot out this allegation are missing the point entirely. Hillary has a 10-point plan. Goody. You know who else had a 10-Point Plan? Walter Mondale. So did Mike Dukakis. So did John Kerry and Al Gore. But they were viewed as bloodless policy wonks. The purpose of Obama's oratory is to inspire people to believe (yes - BELIEVE) that something greater is possible in this country.

The heart trumps the head.

Every.
Single.
Time.

Republicans learned that a long time ago. The way a voter perceives the candidate has more to do with whether they'll vote for him that does the candidate's specific stand on any particular issue. That's why blue-collar voters go with the Republicans, who then ship their jobs to Singapore and then tap their phones.

Bill Clinton understood this, and he got elected. Hillary probably understands it, but she's no damned good at it. So the alternative is to try and tear down the guy who can.

Ain't going to work.

[amborin]

63. biden was sunk for speech plagiarism

plagiarism suggests character issues

it's not acceptable

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

75. Biden was sunk...

because on one one occasion, he forgot to acknowledge Neil Kinnock as a source in his standard stump speech. And it turns out the Kinnock had lifted the phrase from another MP's speech before Parliament a few decades earlier.

Given the Biden experience, politicians would be better off NEVER taking the time to attribute their sources (unless it's relevant to the point they're making) because if you forget ONE TIME, some asswipe with accuse you of having character issues.

And by "asswipe," I don't mean you, of course. I'm sure you're a lovely human being.

[Bluerthanblue]

77. ........ you are amusing

.....


:shrug:


peace~

[KoKo]

82. Good Point...that's what bothers me...the words that add to the mystique without attribution.

It's important to point it out...because it's worrysome that he keeps doing this which tends to annoy some who think he's "evangelizing." That's my biggest complaint with him other than the same lobbying money that HIllary has taken. I'm on the fence...between Hillary and Obama, btw.

I would like to see Obama drop the unattributed speechifying of JFK/MLK, the Hopi's and whomever else he throws in. I assume it means he's being cautious because he knows the RW will misinterpret everything, but still..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. ORLY?

So he should have mentioned MLK and JFK by name too?

[LadyVT]

29. Yes, of course

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Sounds awfully dumb to me.

Are you saying Obama plagiarized MLK now too?

[NC_Nurse]

11. That's exactly what I thought.

A simple reference to his friend Deval would have been enough.
I'm hoping that people will learn something from this. It's really quite
simple to avoid these types of accusations - even though I do think
they are nitpicking, it still creates a distraction.

[calmblueocean]

16. Political speeches are not academic papers. Collaboration does not require attribution.

Political speeches are by their nature collaborative works in which the writers are understood to remain uncredited. Patrick was a collaborator who supplied language for one of Obama's speeches. This is fundamentally opposite of academic writing, in which collaboration is expected to be acknowledged.

By your standards, all politicians who use speechwriters are guilty of plagiarism.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. It is such an easy call.

[woolldog]

18. Big difference

Political speeches are an entirely different animal than academia.

[NJmaverick]

19. These are political speeches, not term papers

So "Professor" you are WRONG These are speeches (often written by others).

[amborin]

57. biden's bid for potus was terminated

when he also plagiarized in his political speech

plagiarism suggests deep character flaws

[NJmaverick]

74. Yes it does, but this was not plagiarism

So that statement marks a dishonest effort to improperly smear Obama. That's why I can't and never will vote for Hillary. I can't reward those sort of tactics.

[amborin]

76. don't like admitting it?

he smeared himself

by conning his audience into believing the ideas and words were his own creation, by failing to attribute them, right at that moment, to the true author

why try to blame hillary or her supporters for obama's misdeed?

[NJmaverick]

83. WHat is your point of your Rovian smear of Obama?

Do you think behaving like Bush supporter will suddenly make me support Hillary? I think you will have a better chance of seeing Santa's sleigh riding down main street, with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy riding along with him, than you have of having that happen.

[amborin]

86. evade

is what obama supporters seem to do

shift the blame onto some one else, just like you're now doing

[NJmaverick]

90. You can't evade Swift Boating- You have to go after the

Swift Boaters, like yourself and your candidate. You have to make sure politicians get the message that the American people will not tolerate any politician that engages in Swift Boating.

[NJmaverick]

93. What I am going to do is stay true to my moral principles

As a result, I could never support you or your candidate.

[juajen]

101. The reasoning follows:

I, of course, recognized the JFK and MLK quotes. I did not recognize the Hopi quote, and wrongfully thought, "Gee, I like that. He is brilliant!"

See, he is stealing brilliance from others. He should not take words that are not his, unless they are so famous attribution is not necessary. Those not easily recognized should name.

[cottonseed]

21. Aren't you talking about academic works?

This is actually a serious question. I can see plagiarism charges on academic work, both by students and journal (academic) articles, press stories and works of non-fiction, but are speeches subject to the same standards? I realize there may be a moral standard, but is a campaign speech held to the same standards as academic, reporting, and non-fiction work? I would venture to say it is not.

[Occam Bandage]

27. There is of course an enormous difference in citation. Were these academic,

Hillary and Obama would also be expected to provide citations for any and all claims made.

[ProSense]

23. Technically speaking,

what did Hillary do?

I think your claim is nonsense!

February 18, 2008, 1:37 pm

More on the War Over ‘Words’

By Jeff Zeleny

NILES, Ohio – Senator Barack Obama dismissed suggestions from his rivals that his words are any less authentic because he adapted a line in a speech from his friend, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, but added that he probably should have given him credit.

“I’m sure I should have,” Mr. Obama said, speaking at a news conference here today. “As I said before, I really don’t think this is too big of a deal.”

On the eve of the Wisconsin primary, a top adviser to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton accused Mr. Obama of committing “plagiarism” in a speech he delivered in Milwaukee on Saturday evening. The passage in question is Mr. Obama responding to criticism from Mrs. Clinton that his inspirational speeches are not merely “just words.”

Mr. Obama smiled when asked about the accusation, saying it was “carrying it too far.”

“Let’s see, I’ve written two books. I wrote most of my speeches,” Mr. Obama said. “I would add that I noticed Senator Clinton, on occasion, has used words of mine as well.”

Indeed, two of Mr. Obama’s standard lines – “It’s time to turn the page,” and “Fired up and ready to go,” – have made their way into Mrs. Clinton’s campaign appearances during their contentious fight for the Democratic presidential nomination. In recent days, echoes of his “Yes we can,” chant has surfaced in Mrs. Clinton’s speeches as “Yes we will.”

The Clinton campaign called a conference call with reporters on Monday to highlight their charges. At the same hour, Mr. Obama was talking about the economy as he toured a titanium plant in Ohio.

That setting, he said, placed the brouhaha into its proper context.

“I don’t think that’s really the kind of stuff that the workers here are concerned about,” Mr. Obama said. “What they’re concerned about is whose actually going to make sure that we have jobs here in the United States that pay a decent wage.”

Hillary has a habit of misrepresenting the facts:

Clinton has been criticized for not giving credit to a ghostwriter in connection with It Takes a Village. The majority of the book was reportedly written by ghostwriter Barbara Feinman.<8> When the book was first announced in April 1995, The New York Times reported publisher Simon & Schuster as saying "The book will actually be written by Barbara Feinman, a journalism professor at Georgetown University in Washington. Ms. Feinman will conduct a series of interviews with Mrs. Clinton, who will help edit the resulting text."<9>

Feinman spent seven months on the project and was paid $120,000 for her work.<10> Feinman, however, was not mentioned anywhere in the book. Clinton's acknowledgment section began: "It takes a village to bring a book into the world, as everyone who has written one knows. Many people have helped me to complete this one, sometimes without even knowing it. They are so numerous that I will not even attempt to acknowledge them individually, for fear that I might leave one out."<11> During her promotional tour for the book, Clinton said, "I actually wrote the book ... I had to write my own book because I want to stand by every word."<2> Clinton stated that Feinman assisted in interviews and did some editorial drafting of "connecting paragraphs", while Clinton herself wrote the final manuscript in longhand.<2>

link

The problem came when Mrs. Clinton decided, for reasons still a mystery to me, not to acknowledge my help, or that of anyone else by name. Because the White House had issued a press release early on in the process stating that I had been hired to "help prepare the manuscript," when it was finished and there was no mention of me in the acknowledgments, the anti-Clinton forces went to town. The irony was that by not acknowledging me, rather than diminishing my role, she unwittingly elevated me to a sort of literary Joan of Arc with the likes of everyone from Don Imus to Maureen Dowd to Rush Limbaugh weighing in before Thank-YouGate blew over. Pundits had a field day opining how much of the book she had actually written. The truth was much more prosaic: Like any first lady, Mrs. Clinton had an extremely hectic schedule and writing a book without assistance would have been logistically impossible. The book, despite the fact that it was at best a mediocre political tract on the virtues of governmental responsibility in the raising of children through subsidized programs like Head Start, was a bestseller and its audio version won Mrs. Clinton a Grammy.

link

[Carolina]

87. K&R

[juajen]

98. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, I believe Mrs. Clinton

donated all proceeds from this book to charity? Of course, written by her it would sell a lot more books than by the relatively unknown ghostwriter. I thought she had written it all by herself, so, color me a tad disappointed. Of course, if there was an agreement that she would be acknowledged, she should have sued. Since the profits were going to charity, I'm not sure if that would have been possible.

Please elucidate, anybody who knows more than I?

[anamandujano]

31. They dragged Jesse Jackson through the mud 10 or 15 years back

when he told a story that a friend had told him. He just wasn't thinking, a genuine mistake.

In this case, since the guy is a total construction out of whole cloth and his words are his stock and trade, it does matter. And, since he does it on a regular basis, it matters.

We were just talking last night about Obama trying to shift blame to Hillary whenever he gets called on something. I suggested he might use that against McCain if he gets the nod. He probably will.

[moc]

32. I'm an academic too. When Barack submits me a paper without

citations, I'll flunk him.

If he and his friend "swap riffs" in giving speeches, I won't give it a second thought.

As an "academic", you need to get over yourself.

[Moochy]

37. But the rarified air, the ivory doorknobs, the view from up there

Why else does one ascend the steps of academia, but for to gaze down upon the commons with proper disdain.

[amborin]

69. biden's bid for potus ended after he plagiarized his speech

[CorpGovActivist]

33. No, it's "tailor-made," Dr. Academic. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

45. And "college-level" should be hyphenated. Tsk, tsk.

[CorpGovActivist]

65. I merely went for the low-hanging fruit. *wink* *wink* n/t

[ExtraGriz]

34. the more spin control he is going to do

the guiltier he is going to look

[no name no slogan]

36. If this were Obama's coursework, I'd say he'd fail the course-- BUT it's not.

We're NOT grading him on his speechwriting. We're selecting a president.

Personally, I don't care who he steals his lines from. All I care is that he can govern in a wise and just manner.

[LadyVT]

39. No, he's trying for President on a platform of honesty and integrity

Not by stealing others' words and presenting them as if they are his own. This is beneath him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. ORLY?

So you were all ready to vote for him because you thought he wrote his own speeches, and now you're very concerned?

[Occam Bandage]

43. Stealing others' words? Patrick provided them and suggested they be used.

[cottonseed]

44. Honesty and Integrety are so Naive.

Hillary's mud slinging will be ending soon. I'll be relieved when it's over.

[no name no slogan]

53. This is a tempest in a teapot

Joe/Jane Sixpack doesn't give a rats ass where he steals his speeches from. The only people who care are political junkies and those who spend too much time watching 24-hour cable news and need something to bitch about on their blogs that nobody reads.

This ain't 1987, and Obama ain't Joe Biden.

[Eric J in MN]

46. If he had said "As my good friend Deval Patrick has said..." it would have interrrupted...

...the flow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cd-AJeJvBE&feature=bz301

The written word is different from a speech.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

50. And a campaign speech at that...

The point is to fire up a crowd, not provide an academic analysis.

With a few exceptions (one of them being Paul Wellstone) academics typically make lousy candidates.

[MadBadger]

47. Difference is, he didnt take it from some random scholar

He took it from one of his key supporters who says he talked to him abouut this.

[ShortnFiery]

54. And even more important, why is HRC's campaign screaming "FOUL" when they claim "words don't matter"

Again, The "political royalty" who are *The Clintons* MUST have it both ways. :eyes:

[Vilis Veritas]

95. Nope. He did not 'take' it. It was given, freely.

"Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit."

"Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is,” said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. “It’s a transcendent argument."

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/did_obama_plagiarize_clinton_t.html
by Frank James and John McCormick
Updated and expanded at 1:43 pm

Both men had anticipated that Mr. Obama’s rhetorical strength would provide a point of criticism. Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama’s speechwriters.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/did_obama_plagiarize_clinton_t.html
by Frank James and John McCormick
Updated and expanded at 1:43 pm

[amborin]

48. depends on what the student plagiarized

it's grounds for expulsion from the uni.....it's a serious problem, which is why some places use 'turn it in'

it calls for future wariness, and casts aspersions on the student's work, in general

[ShortnFiery]

59. This is bullshit. Obama is a Constitutional scholar and his close friend and him "exchange ideas"

DAMN, HRC's campaign is FILTH. If she continues to trump up scandals out of worthless B.S., The Clintons WILL destroy our party. :nuke:

[amborin]

71. obama deliberately mislead the audience

he led people to assume the words and ideas in the speech were his original creation


now his buddy will "authorize" this after the fact

doesn't change a thing

[goodgd_yall]

58. How serious is this?

Not very. I certainly don't think my fellow Democrats should make a big deal of this. I haven't watched TV news today, so I have no idea how much play this issue is getting. But I was appalled when the "Dean Scream" became such a sensation and I think the Biden plagiarism incident was overblown.

[ShortnFiery]

68. Yes, those of us over 40 y.o. remember "the witch hunt" that kicked Joe Biden out during the 80s.

That was a disgusting orchestration of hate-filled attack memes also. I don't think anyone would deny, even if you disagree with his policy, that Joe Biden is NOT an honorable and brilliant human being?

This shit has got to stop. I't just wrong. It's "dirty tricks" and it's just not IMO, worthy of those of us within the Democratic Party. Is HRC and her operatives so berefit of INTEGRITY that they have to use such deplorable tactics? :(

[Recursion]

64. Since this isn't an academic context...

...if the original author of material licenses someone to use it without attribution, it's not even remotely unethical.

For that matter, given that the two "share ideas" (and a speechwriter), it's not clear whether the original author was Patrick, Obama, Axelrod, or some combination of them working together.

[zulchzulu]

67. Patrick and Obama had agreed on using each other's phrases...

...so it ISN'T plagiarism.

It's called giving a speech.

[amborin]

73. it's plagiarism

even if they had agreed *beforehand*

that doesn't change a thing

failing to attribute the ideas, words, etc to their true author is misleading the audience into thinking they're obama's original creation

it's conning the audience

[scheming daemons]

78. FALSE

According to the DICTIONARY definition, it is only plagiarism if it is unauthorized.


Here's the definition at dictionary.com:

pla·gia·rism /ˈpleɪdʒəˌrɪzəm, -dʒiəˌrɪz-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.
2. something used and represented in this manner.



What part of "unauthorized" don't you understand? If Patrick authorized its usage... either before OR after the fact, then by definition it is not plagiarism.


Funny how the TRUTH always makes the hillbots lose an argument.

[amborin]

81. ha ha ha

Plagiarism is the practice of claiming or implying original authorship of (or incorporating material from) someone else's written or creative work, in whole or in part, into one's own without adequate acknowledgement.

[robbedvoter]

80. BO and his surrogate the MSM - made his whole campaign about HIM, his character

Hillary bad, Obama noble. It's for this reason that a minor offense like this one has larger reverberations in this context. Like it did with Biden.

[AX10]

91. For Obama, it should.

Obama has been fed old lines from JFK and MLK via Ted Sorenson.
Obama has not one single word to his own.
He is desperate to make himself something great.

[Carolina]

84. The whole point was that Obama

(like Patrick who was OK with Obama's speech) was pointing out the significance of words... Famous Words to illustrate the idiocy of HRC's comment that words are cheap!

The same day HRC uttered her cheap words, this board was filled with threads and responses essentially saying the same thing as Patrick and Obama. Using snippets from famous speeches, many came back to a refrain: Words?! Just words.

This so mountain out of a molehill (is it plagiarism for me to say that)? And so typical of Team Hillary. Divert from the real theme which is that throughout history words do matter, do inspire and do have impact.

And since his do while hers don't, her campaign MO is to attack his words as stolen.

Spare me!

[Maribelle]

85. But here's the problem: Obama was attempting to respond to a charge by Hillary ...

saying oratory and excitement aren't enough - - "Words are cheap".

In this context, Obama's plagiarism was significant.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

89. it is indeed a big deal...the man has yet to speak his own words Ted Sorensen feds him all his words

[tishaLA]

92. Also an academic and I

find the analogy strained. But, you know, I teach literature and gender stuff, so perhaps I have a different perspective.

[juajen]

99. So, it would be ok with you if a student turned in a paper

written by someone else, and defended himself by saying his friend said he could use it? You know, he could be expelled for this or given an F in the class. Your reply is disingenuous.

[tishaLA]

100. You see, that's precisely the analogy that doesn't work

So you missed the only point I was making in my post.

[Vilis Veritas]

94. Not plagiarism, in my opinion, here's why...

Deval gave advice to Obama's speech writers explicit consent to use his words without attribution.

"Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit."

"Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is,” said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. “It’s a transcendent argument."

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/did_obama_plagiarize_clinton_t.html
by Frank James and John McCormick
Updated and expanded at 1:43 pm

No credit. Sounds remotely like...no attribution...hmmm.

"Both men had anticipated that Mr. Obama’s rhetorical strength would provide a point of criticism. Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama’s speech-writers."

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/did_obama_plagiarize_clinton_t.html
by Frank James and John McCormick
Updated and expanded at 1:43 pm

Key word: Shared.

By consulting with the speech-writers, Deval Patrick, in my opinion acted as an unpaid speech consultant. They were his words to use as he saw fit. He chose to give them to his friend and relinquish claims for attribution.

I hope I have quoted appropriately and I will not be accused of plagiarism...;-)

And one more opinion by me, this is all part of GMC wag the dog strategy...

Guess what? War still waging. Children still dying. Economy still sucks. Impeachment still off the table. Carry on. Nothing to see here...go back to sleep.

[Sulawesi]

96. I am an academic that has dealt with plagiarism many times, and I disagree with the OP

[juajen]

97. Wasn't it" Plagerism" that messed up Joe Biden's career?

I believe he would have made a wonderful President, but that kept being brought up all the time. I really felt sorry that this happened to him. I don't remember the particulars. Anybody else?

I still have not read what didn't get credited in Obama's speech. Until I have read it, I won't judge him.

[anigbrowl]

103. Yes. Biden listed an entire speech from a UK politician.

Rather a different case. Obama's speech ''Famous historical quote.' Just words' (repeat x 3) was a pretty obvious way to rebut Clinton's remarks. It's not so original, but it's not exactly a major ripoff either.

As has been pointed out, Clinton didn't mind trying 'Fired up, ready to go' in the faint hope it would do her campaign some good.

[Muttocracy]

106. please see this for an explanation of what happened to Biden

he did not lift/list/whatever "an entire speech". He forgot to attribute part of a repeated stump speech one time and Dukakis staff and supporters smeared him for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4639753#4642580

[ElsewheresDaughter]

105. Indeed it was

[THUNDER HANDS]

102. last time i checked, he never starts his speeches by saying

everything you're about to hear is my own original thought and nobody had a hand in this but me.

it's quite different than being asked to write a paper using your own thoughts and then presenting them as your own.

[RamboLiberal]

104. Obama - December 2007

"But you know in the end, don’t vote your fears. I’m stealing this line from my buddy (Massachusetts Gov.) Deval Patrick who stole a whole bunch of lines from me when he ran for the governorship, but it’s the right one, don’t vote your fears, vote your aspirations. Vote what you believe."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/12/obama-scoffs-th.html

What - he has to say this every time he borrows from his buddy Patrick?