Plagiarism: Both sides, or neither?

[NastyRiffraff]

Good God, there are 30+ plagiarism posts and counting.

I think this has been way overblown on both sides. Did Obama "steal" Patrick's words? He certainly used them, and should have used them as a quote. Or, he could have asked Patrick beforehand if he could, unattributed, because he usage was too close to the original. Is it plagiarism by any legal definition? That's a stretch.

Clinton used a ghostwriter to help with It Takes a Village. This is much more clear...the very definition of a ghostwriter is that the book is...er...ghostwritten, meaning with no attribution. Sure, some authors recognize the ghostwriter in various ways, such as a research assistant, or with a simple thanks in a forward. Perhaps Hillary should have done that, but unless there was something written in the contract to that effect, she was under no obligation to do so. (The ghostwriter herself doesn't claim a breach of contract, so it's very doubtful there was one.)

There are many other more important issues to worry about; can we put this one to bed?

[shadowknows69]

1. Isn't there still a couple wars going on?

[NastyRiffraff]

4. Actually, several here on DU

You'd never know there were real wars with actual consequences going on by reading GD-P.

[Recursion]

2. He did

Or, he could have asked Patrick beforehand if he could, unattributed

He did. That's why I don't get what the deal is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Neither.

And I don't think anybody here has a problem with "It Takes a Village" except in terms of the hypocrisy.

[Drunken Irishman]

5. I rarely agree with you Nasty, but I do here.

This is a non-issue. Neither Clinton or Obama are plagiarists.

[NastyRiffraff]

8. Yay! The Big DI and I agree on something!

:hi:

BTW, love your handle! My uncle used to call himself that.

[Drunken Irishman]

16. haha, nice.

But really, isn't my screen name redundant? :D

[Recursion]

6. Well, the difference seems to be the original author's permission

Obama had Patrick's permission to use those quotes. From the lawsuit, it seems that Clinton didn't have her ghostwriter's permission to not attribute her (at least that's what the ghostwriter claimed; I have no idea)

[spooky3]

7. The problem is that the audience is owed proper attribution in

the case of Patrick's words - it's not enough to get permission so that you avoid harming the original author (or his/her speechwriters). The audience forms opinions of the speaker based on his/her words so they deserve to know whether the speaker and his/her team originated the thoughts. Given that speeches are a very important part of the job of political candidates, this seems important.

Another problem is that one never knows what OTHER words have been used without proper attribution. So it's hard to know if this is a big deal or the tip of the iceberg. However, it would be unfair to assume without evidence that it's the latter.

I agree with you about ghostwriters. It has to do with reasonable expectations. People reasonably expect that non-writer celebrities will have a substantial amount of help in writing and the use of ghostwriters is well understood. People reasonably expect that political candidates employ speechwriters. However, I think it can be questioned whether people reasonably expect that a political candidate would use verbatim or nearly so, the words or ideas of other candidates, without acknowledging that s/he is doing so. As support for this Biden was criticized strongly for using someone else's words as his own.

[Recursion]

9. You mean like all the times he said, "As my good friend Deval Patrick says..."? nt

[spooky3]

10. if he truly said that EVERY time he was using Patrick's words, that

would be fine with me. Can't speak for others. But if he didn't do it EVERY time, that is another matter. According to Obama supporters here, he didn't:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4647586

If you look up the history of Biden's problems, you'll see he got into trouble even though he SOMETIMES gave credit to the original author of work he used.

[Recursion]

12. He's admitted he didn't attribute every time, and has apologized

I mean, if this is really the worst you can dig up I'm feeling a lot better about November.

[spooky3]

13. I'm not interested in digging things up. I'm interested in what the

truth is, and in the integrity of the candidates. You're welcome to pick a fight with someone who wants one.

[Recursion]

14. Oh come off it. This isn't an "integrity" issue

He had permission to use those quotes. Integrity isn't involved here.

[Bluerthanblue]

11. You are speaking words that make sense, and that don't

'flame' one candidate and not another so I doubt we can "put this one to bed". (to quote "NastyRiffraff)

:dunce:

WTF anyway? What ever happened to "FREE SPEECH"-????

Corporate America copyrights everything-

"it's the real thing"
"I'm lovin' it"
"have it your way"
"celebrate the moments of your life"
"good to the last drop"
"nothin says lovin like somethin from the oven"
"reach out and touch someone"
"you deserve a break today"
"you've come a long way baby"
"just do it"
"where's the beef?"
"we try harder"
"they're great"
"betcha can't eat just one"
"when you care enough to send the very best"
"ring around the collar"
"does she or doesn't she?"
"good night Louise"



"peace~"


"Mea culpa"


:shrug:


"rec." with "hope"

[spanone]

15. it's horseshit

imho

[kentuck]

17. I'll bet John McCain jokes about it tommorow?

He'll make some snide remark about Obama "consulting with Joe Biden before he plagiarizes one of his friends..."