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Former Clinton Speechwriter Weighs In On Plagiarism-Gate

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:16 PM
Original message
Former Clinton Speechwriter Weighs In On Plagiarism-Gate
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/02/18/former-clinton-speechwriter-weighs-in-on-plagiarism-gate-08.aspx

Former Clinton Speechwriter Weighs In On Plagiarism-Gate

We asked former Bill Clinton speechwriter David Kusnet if today's plagiarism accusations against Barack Obama were justified. In his mind, was what Obama did acceptable, or a violation of speechmaking ethics? Here are his thoughts ...



Barack Obama’s greatest strength is the originality of his rhetoric. Sometimes he talks like a regular person, as in his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, when he introduced himself as “a skinny kid with a funny name.” Sometimes, he sounds like a president from an earlier, more historically literate era, as when he situates his campaign in a tradition that includes the American Revolution, the abolitionists, and the emergence of the labor movement, the civil rights movement, and other social struggles. But only rarely, if ever, does he use the familiar freeze-dried phrases that most current politicians favor. To borrow a phrase from the UAW, the “domestic content” of his speeches is unusually high.

That’s only one of many reasons why it’s so silly to accuse Obama of plagiarism because he used some of the same phrases as his friend and ally, Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick (who, I should add, was helpful to me when he was assistant attorney general for civil rights at the same time I was a speechwriter for President Bill Clinton). If plagiarism is borrowing rhetoric without permission, Patrick most likely is happy to have Obama sound similar notes, such as hope and inspiration being more than “just words.” Even if Obama and Patrick didn’t know each other, they might use some of the same phrases because similar public figures frequently draw on common streams of public rhetoric. For instance, labor leaders often echo Walter Reuther or A. Philip Randolph; civil rights leaders draw upon the same scriptural passages and historical sources; and conservative Republicans repeatedly invoke Ronald Reagan. Similarly, John Edwards borrowed a rhetorical technique from his campaign manager, fellow populist and former Michigan congressman, David Bonior: His litany would begin “Somewhere in America,” and then he’d describe a social or economic injustice, such as a worker losing his job and his family’s health insurance. While Politico ran a story about this, it is hardly unusual for a candidate to share a rhetorical technique with his leading adviser.

After all, if there is one sentence from Scripture that is literally true, it is this line from Ecclesiastes: “There is nothing new under the Sun.” To be condemned as plagiarism, a political speech needs to be grievously offensive--using lots of distinctive but little-known material from another source without attributing it to that speaker or receiving his or her permission. For instance, in 1987, Joe Biden once used, without attribution, a speech by the British Labor Party Leader Neil Kinnock, in which Kinnock credited social programs with the fact that he was the first in his family to have attended college. By borrowing the speech and inserting his own name, Biden suggested that the men in his family had been coal miners when, in fact, as Maureen Down dryly noted, his father had been an auto dealer. (In fairness, Biden had quoted Kinnock when he had given the speech on other occasions.) Does what Obama did come close to what Biden did? Absolutely not. Next scandal, please.



--David Kusnet
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. People don't REALIZE how serious of a crime REAL Plagiarism is.
People get kicked out of insitutions of higher learning, lose their jobs, get stripped of their credentials, and even get sued in lower courts for REAL plagiarism.

This is why Hillary's campaign sounds pathetic when they use that word to refer to something that clearly ISN'T real plagiarism.
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Leaders set examples for others to follow.
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 06:41 PM by BeatleBoot
I just watched the video of both speeches - Patrick's and Obama's .

It's pretty clear that Obama "lifted" from Patrick's speech.

No coincidence.

All Obama has to do is apologize and move on. Then it's no big deal.

Until and unless he does that, he's sending a clear message to those in academia that it's okay "to borrow" from others' work. In essence, he's telling America's youth that it's okay to cheat.

Cheat on your 9th grade Algebra test? No problem, Obama did it. Write a paper in high school and "lift" from Hemingway or Shakespeare? No problem.

Leaders set examples for others to follow.


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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Or our kids could all follow Hillary's shining example.
If you're running for Student Body President, and you're falling behind your rival in support, hide out on the roof of the History Building and throw garbage at him as he passes by.

Or, you can just get your boyfriend to do it...
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Was Obama 15 years old when he gave that speech?
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 06:39 PM by BeatleBoot
No, it was recent.

He was old enough to know better.






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tyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Well...
"It's pretty clear that Obama "lifted" from Patrick's speech."

With Patricks permission.

"All Obama has to do is apologize and move on. Then it's no big deal."

He already did.

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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Link?
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tyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Here it is...
ABC News' Sunlen Miller and Teddy Davis Reports: Senator Barack Obama said during a press conference in Niles, Ohio that he probably should have given credit to Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick when he used his words at a speech on Saturday night in Wisconsin, as first reported by ABC News' Jake Tapper.

Obama pushed back against questions about whether he has ever plagiarized before. Obama said he usually gives credit when quoting people or using ideas, but he insisted that he is friends with Patrick.

"I've written two books, wrote most of my speeches, so I'm putting aside the question that you just raised whether my words are my own, I think that would be carrying it too far," Obama said. "Deval and I do trade ideas all the time, and he's occasionally used lines of mine and I at a Jefferson Jackson dinner in Wisconsin used some words of his.”

When asked if he should have credited Patrick, Obama admitted he should have: “I was on the stump. He suggested we use these lines. I thought they were good lines. I’m sure I should have. Didn’t this time.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/obama-campaign.html
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. That's an apology?
He "pushed back" "against questions"

Shoulda woulda coulda.

No apology.



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tyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Um...
“I was on the stump. He suggested we use these lines. I thought they were good lines. I’m sure I should have.

Yes. Of course, who is he suppose to apologize to? Patrick?

Sheesh!
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. To the American People.
"Oh, I used Stacy's term paper from last year, but it doesn't really matter, right, since she's my friend and all. Plus she said it was okay."




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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. Not to mention that Patrick's speech was one that they
both have used in the past... and when Obama used it before, he gave attribution. And that the two men often borrow speeches or fragments FROM EACH OTHER.

And BeatleBoot is way behind the times... MSNBC has already debunked the whole "plagiarism" charge...

And with a damning comment about why Hillary would bother to level such a charge, especially when SHE has lifted entire sections from both her husband (presumably with his permission) and from John Edwards (the "Blockbuster" tracking speech).
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Like voting for wars without having read the intelligence reports?
:shrug:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. As soon as your gal apologizes for all her faux pas, including these:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. He did
All Obama has to do is apologize and move on. Then it's no big deal.

He has. He said he usually attributed it to Patrick but in some speeches he forgot to, and that he should have.

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Obamaniac Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Will you Clinton people please stop this sanctimonious bullshit
pretty please, with motherfucking sugar on top.

So you can't beat our guy so you have to invent scandals? Are you people that hard up? What does that say about your girl, Ms. Inevitable?

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. You are correct. This not Plagiarism, but is the kind of faux issue charlatans like Hillary make.
If you write a paper in college and fail to properly attribute, it's Plagiarism, because in that format you are expected to provide citations for your work. If you write anything for publication - a book, a column, a note in some law review or other treatise - and you fail to attribute, that's Plagiarism, because in that format you are required to cite and disclose. I've served on committees which review and act upon allegations of Plagiarism in the work of grad students at a very well known university. This was not Plagiarism.

No one gives political speeches, stopping to offer citations for every good line, every good zinger, they use. It's laughable to suggest it is, and you will not find any speech-writer who would say it is. Everyone borrows from everyone. Whatever line is working, that's the line that is used. McCain and Hillary have both already borrowed from Obama the past month.

Words don't belong to anyone, unless they are written down and copyrighted, and even then, the thoughts and ideas are not owned by the author.

The only reason this story matters is because it's yet another in the endless stream of distractive attack water balloons the Clinton campaign lobs in a futile attempt to make him seem as unseemly as Hillary is.
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Next scandal please ...
By David Kusnet, 2/1/08.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ecclesiastes!
Ha! I been copy/pasta-ing it today!

Here's a page with all the "versions" of the same phrase;

http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/1-9.htm

And, let us note that whoever stuck that bit in teh Bible, probably stole it from the Greeks.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. More plagiarism-I hate when that happens!
:P
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elixir2 Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Still plagiarism.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Do you know what plagiarism IS?
Define it for me.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Original message
Still blind.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm Fired up and Ready to go......
so sais Obama, and then Hillary, and then McCain.

This so much about nothing that it should be a Seinfeld episode!
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I'm Fired up and Ready to go.......
so sais Obama, and then Hillary, and then McCain.

This so much about nothing that it should be a Seinfeld episode!

--Bicostal.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Glad you agree!
:hi:
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. No, just plagiarizing you.
What do you expect? I'm an Obama supporter!

Although in all fairness, I did add in one more ellipse than you.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. What's a few borrowed words among friends.........
Against the politics of hate! PRICELESS! :)
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Clinton campaign is being profoundly dishonest. It is just SAD.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. "earlier, more historically literate era"

that's about as condescending remark as I've ever heard. Figures.

Because, ya know, us drooling knuckle dragging uneducated idiots really can't comprehend what Obama is telling us... that's why we have to drink the kool-aid!

:sarcasm:
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Original message
Nice ! Good find, Babylon sister :-)
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MoJoWorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great find! This should find its way to all the talking heads and put an end to it all.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Hillaroids will turn anything into a 'Gate' n/t
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R
:kick:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. David Knuset Has Been Writing Love Letters to Obama for Three Years
Next?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Well that should tell us something right there, being Clinton's former
speechwriter and all... He has discerning taste!
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Beautiful.
Nice find B-Sister! :hug:
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. The stench of desperation emanating from Kamp Klinton ...
is enough to gag a maggot.

No one ever called Billary a graceful loser.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hard to find a single honest and reasonable person
That considers what Obama did plagiarism. In fact I think the Clintons don't think it's plagiarism and most of her supports know it's not. Hasn't stopped them from making the accusations for political gain. That's the sort of dishonesty, that prevents me from ever supporter her.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. You hit the nail on the head.
I don't even think Hillary thinks this is plagiarism. It's all just manufactured outrage.

Except mine, which is now rapidly growing.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. poor Biden was crucified for it..
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
34. Awesome.... well said.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
40. .
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