Question for Hillary Supporters?

[woolldog]

Do you guys realize how silly you sound on the "plagiarism" issue? Seriously it's sad seeing you guys reduced to this. Have some pride, ok?

[MonkeyFunk]

1. When I first read about it

I thought it was a silly issue.

But seeing the response of many of the Obama supporters to this indicates to me it's something that really bothers you - maybe scares you.

The defense has been more over the top than the initial criticism.

[MADem]

19. As I theorized below, I think they are upset because they actually thought that

Obama's stuff was ORIGINAL. Now they have to wrap their heads around the fact that HOPE, CHANGE We Can BELIEVE In, Yes WE CAN, everything except FIRED UP/READY TO GO is ..... COPIED. Duplicated, and FED to them.

He's been mass marketed to them. They've been conned. They thought they were getting hand-made, fair trade, vegan barbecue soy burgers with a special exotic sauce, and they've been handed a fucking lousy whopper with cheese...all done up in a fancy wrapper.

[Sapphocrat]

49. MADem!

Beautiful! :D :D :D

[NMMNG]

50. Are you SERIES!?!?

People raised in the age of MTV, American Idol and CGI movies couldn't figure it out, while we old geezers who need to be fed into the Soylent Green hoppers because we're so uneducated and irrelevant saw through it all? I'm astonished!

[Skittles]

52. this is HUGH, Buffy!

:rofl:

[Sapphocrat]

57. But don't you realize...

...that the very reason they want to chop us up into many small pieces is that we're not so stupid and crazy as they make us out to be?

Listen, I have to be honest: I'm not feeling so Soylent Green'd myself right now... Right now, I'm feeling a lot more like Kevin McCarthy in the original "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" -- or like Veronica Cartwright in the remake.

[NMMNG]

58. .......

There's nothing to be afraid of. They were right. It's painless. It's good. Come. Sleep. Matthew.

[MADem]

63. Heheheheheh...Buff, you crack me up! NT

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

82. Classic!

"...while we old geezers who need to be fed into the Soylent Green hoppers..." :D


:applause:

[earthlover]

53. Obviously Hillary writes her own speeches.....just like It Takes A Village was GHOST-WRITTEN!

Hillary took credit for writing It Takes A Village though. Many actually believe she wrote it! Amazing. The person who wrote it has gone public.

ANd it isn't as if Hillary has used Obama slogans in her speeches. Oh, she has!

[MADem]

62. She's not up there READING a book. Nice try, though.

She's not up there copying Governor Patrick's speeches, either. Word for word. And not delivering them as well as HE DID.

Here, have a look at how Deval did it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaOkxbM9dY

She didn't pattern her ENTIRE CAMPAIGN after his, either. Hope, Change, BELIEVE!! Yes, We Can!

You guys have been sold a XEROX instead of an original. And now you have to pretend that you like it "just as much" because you've travelled too far down that road to do anything else.

You have fun reconciling all that in your head, now!

What happened to all that money that was earned from It Takes A Village? Gee, it went to ... charity!

[golddigger]

75. MADem...Beautifully said and so true.

[lapfog_1]

32. Does it scare the Clinton supporters that Hillary

has lifted entire paragraphs and themes from John Edwards?

(The whole "if Blockbuster video can track their tapes..." speech). Lifted and repeated by Hillary. Verbatim.

Story on MSNBC last night.

As opposed to the Obama story, where Patrick has said that Obama can use his speeches and vice versa... and said so BEFORE this incident... and not only that, there is video (FSM bless camcorders) of Obama attributing to Patrick this same speech about 6 months ago.

It was just another exercise in flying monkeys flinging poo.

Hillary has gone negative... and desperate. And so have her minions.

[Skittles]

46. try to understand this

saying SHE DOES IT TOO is NOT a great defense - now tell us WHY someone as high profile as Obama thinks it is a good idea to RECYLCE SPEECHES - that is a legitimate, logical request

[lapfog_1]

66. Can you show me the threads where you accuse Hillary

of plagiarism?

Thought not.

I hate hypocrisy more than anything. Saying she does it too is a GREAT defense if SHE IS THE ONE MAKING THE ACCUSATION.

which she is, of course.

You see, if Deval Patrick had come out and said "Obama is plagiarizing my speeches and I can prove it and he did it without my consent", that would be really bad for Obama.

But to have Hillary come out and say it... right after SHE "plagiarized" a speech by Edwards... well, that smacks of hypocrisy.

As for recycling speeches... is this like your FIRST campaign? They ALL give about the same speech over and over. They give literally hundreds of speeches... mostly around the same themes. You want each and every one to be original?

As for Deval and Obama... they have ADMITTED to sharing speeches with each other. What is wrong with that? Patrick even says that Obama writes most of them himself.

[MADem]

65. Cool!!! We need more populist themes interjected into the campaign!

I hope Edwards gives her more material--I liked what he had to say. It was...SPECIFIC! Like her stuff is!

Not Hope, Dream, Yes, We Can, Change, Believe, Fired Up, Ready to Go....

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Who, in particular?

I've heard a couple of surrogates float the claim. I don't really take it seriously. Nor did I take it seriously when Joe Biden got hounded out of the race in -- 1988, was it?

Any and everyone is a "surrogate". A whole lot of the crap on both sides is coming from these surrogates and the media themselves. I listen to what the candidates themselves have to say.

Win or lose, Hillary or Obama, a year from now or so, there are going to be some major fecal impacts on the air recirculation device.

--p!

[woolldog]

4. Hillary's campaign was on an hourlong

conference call to the press about this story. They were pushing this story hard.

[Maddy McCall]

3. It's not an issue to me. Just makes me wonder why it bothers Obamites so much.

Evidently it scares or worries y'all.

[XemaSab]

5. It worries me

to see another Democratic candidate pull this kind of shit.

[Skittles]

11. recycling speeches?

it is indeed unseemly

[XemaSab]

12. He's still the least crooked person in the race on either side, IMHO

n/t

[Skittles]

13. ooh, that is a ringing endorsement

"least crooked"

[XemaSab]

16. All politicians are crooked

When you're running against a member of the Keating 5 and a woman who has admittedly taken some really shady donations from MULTIPLE donors, it's not hard to look clean by comparison.

[Skittles]

6. the hysteria seems to be coming more from them

absolutely

[Maddy McCall]

7. Certainly is.

Ridiculous amount of posts today justifying/rationalizing/excusing...whatever they want to call it.

[Skittles]

8. I'm waiting for it

the Obama-bot erroneously assuming I'm a Clintonite :o

[Maddy McCall]

9. Happened to blondeatlast tonight.

:rofl:

[Skittles]

10. it kills me

there is no rational discourse, just a bunch of people thinking their candidate can do no wrong - WTF happened to this place - I know it's not all trolls, I see long-time DUers infested with this disease

[Maddy McCall]

15. In 2004 I thought it could never be so bad again.

But it's much worse now. Much worse. Even people sending PMs threatening to keep files on and "expose" opposition supporters.

I found out tonight that all my posts are being saved in text file by one particularly obnoxious one, so that he can use them later.

Insane. :freak:

[LostinVA]

72. That happened the other day

No, I'm serious -- I think I saw someoen call you that in one of the many deleted subthreads on that thread.

[lapfog_1]

38. I call it debunking.

So while your candidate is out there saying anything and doing anything to get elected... and you are sitting here repeating the lies and distortions without even a LITTLE fact checking, it's up to the rest of us to debunk it.

You should have watched the Keith Olberman news hour yesterday and tell me again how Obama is guilty of anything.

Especially that bit in the story about how Obama did credit Patrick when he gave nearly the same speech 6 months ago AND how Patrick and Obama often use each others speeches, completely with the permission of the other.

And then there was that tidbit about Hillary lifting nearly verbatim a speech made by John Edwards. Without attribution.

[MADem]

17. BINGO. They actually "believed" that his shit was "original."

They're "hoping" that he can "change" the shit he copied enough so that they can "believe" he means it again.

They're RATTLED. And it IS because they didn't realize Deval did it first.

They're probably a bit irritated at that, but they're so "invested" they can't admit it, so it's easier to lash out at us, with thread after thread, whining about it.

I'll be honest--I did NOT know what was bugging me SO much about some of Obama's speeches--aside from the fact that they were way too general, full of bullshit and platitudes, without any specifics. The minute I saw Deval's old stuff though, I realized what it was--I'd HEARD that shit BEFORE!!! I gotta say, though--at least Deval threw in a few issues!

It's like listening to someone do a cover of an old tune you liked in High School, only doing it totally differently. It sounds kind of familiar, and you seem to know the words, but you don't know how, or why.

Then, finally, you realize it's that OLD song, but not done as well as the original!

The angst amongst the acolytes is pretty amazing.

[Mudoria]

71. I think you've pretty much

covered it. Obamatons are still convinced he walks on water when delivering his platitudes (even when he steals the platitudes) :rofl:

[MADem]

14. Question for Obama supporters?

Do you guys realize how silly you sound on the "plagiarism" issue? Seriously it's sad seeing you guys reduced to this. Have some pride, ok?


You've only posted a hundred threads WHINING about it!!!!

:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

18. Question: Do you often chide the victim of false allegations?

Spectacularly cowardly behavior.

[Skittles]

20. NOW who is playing the victim card?

:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

22. you should be ashamed of supporting the cheese the Clinton campaign is dishing out

We'll miss you when she loses.

[Maddy McCall]

23. Ahahahaha!

There it is, Skittles.

:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

25. The best revenge is success, and it will be sweet. Shall we say 10-0 today?

[Maddy McCall]

26. Revenge against whom?

That's a psychotic post.

[AtomicKitten]

29. Against the Clinton Swift-Boating Wrecking Machine -- and it will be sweet!

[Maddy McCall]

31. That's nice.

:freak:

[Skittles]

42. STOP AND LISTEN TO YOURSELF

YOU SOUND RIDICULOUS

[Skittles]

41. I AM NOT A CLINTON SUPPORTER

SO STOP ACCUSING ME OF BEING ONE - try to imagine that SOME OF US ARE NOT FOOLED BY Clinton OR Obama!!!!!!!!!!! Think you can do that????

[AtomicKitten]

24. And all this nonsense and game-playing will stop when Barack wins the nomination.

We look forward to moving forward in this election with the adults.

[Maddy McCall]

30. And we adults don't look forward to babysitting you children.

[lapfog_1]

34. I'm likely older than you

quit attempting to be superior and patronizing.

It doesn't reflect well on you.

You want to debate issues, fine.

You want to support your candidate, fine.

But calling supporters of the other DEMOCRATIC candidate children and cult members and kool-aid drinkers has just got to come to a stop.

This isn't Hillary Underground.

[MADem]

37. Hey, we call them like we see them. You act like cult members and behave like children.

You whine when you're criticized, and you don't engage on the issues.

That's the classic profile of one of the Lord Of The Flies Acolytes.

By their behavior we know them.

You want to change the tone, fine, but stop trying to play the aggrieved innocent.


Take a gander through this thread, and see how just adorable your fellow acolytes are. Hey, we know them by the company they keep, and all that...

[earthlover]

55. Hillary Land is OBLIVIOUS!!!

You go out and Swift Boat a good Democrat with a bunch of crap. Then when his followers react, you attack them for whining! Cheap Shot Artists, I see. At least they don't cry on cue.

It would be nice to change the tone of this campaign. But the negative tone has come from the Hillary camp ever since a week or two before Iowa. It has only gotten worse.

Now this.

Much ado about nothing. So Obama shares some words willingly with another. So the fuck what?

Hillary can't even give a speech anymore without ripping off Obama slogans.

Pot. Meet. Kettle.

[MADem]

59. Oh, please. Grow the fuck up.

I will hold my nose and vote for the Democratic nominee. Will you?

Or will you flounce off and vote for fucking Nader, or some other idiot in a Che tee shirt? As a PROOOO-TEST!!!

:eyes:

So you can take that pot and shove it up the kettle's ass. I back my party even when it pains me.

This is NOT "much ado about NOTHING." If it were nothing, you guys wouldn't be whining about it continuously for the last two days.

It's not "sharing words." It's COPYING. And you guys are pissed because you thought you had an original, and it turns out, you got a lousy xerox. You got Obama copying Deval. Clinton has NOTHING to do with it. Your "man of ideas" is an Imitation of Governor Patrick. The game plan was test marketed in Massachusetts, and then sold to you guppies. And you didn't know it wasn't brand spanking new. But now you do.

Don't blame me because you've got Buyer's Remorse and can't admit to it. You're too far down the rabbit hole, too psychicly invested. That's the issue here. And it's just too late to back out now, isn't it? So you have to grit your teeth, say it doesn't matter that the guy is an imitation, that "they're frieeeeeends, Deval and Barack," so that makes it all OK, but what really grinds you is that you didn't KNOW earlier that this whole Yes We Can/Hope/Change/ Believe bullshit was a "duplicate."

Gee. Darn. Hate when that happens!

[earthlover]

69. Oh please...telling me to grow up will not make me more likely to vote for your candidate

The Hillary Herd has made much ado about nothing. They call this plagiarism when the definition (dictionary.com) of plagiarism means UNAUTHORIZED copying. Obama was authorized months ago and acknowledged this 6 months ago too. Now that Hillary is desperate, there is all this faux outrage about plagiarism. Sad to see people in my party resorting to Swift Boating their own. That is what the Hillary Campaign is doing.

No buyer's remorse here. I think what Obama has been saying is a good message. And, as a history teacher, I know that many over the centuries have campaigned on similar themes. So I never pretended to believe any of Obama's ideas were original. I think they are good ideas, however.

It is a sad day for the party of ideas when inspirational ideas, evoking the Declaration of Independence, JFK, FDR, etc are pooh-poohed with the smug cynicsm of what do words do? Well, words CAN inspire action. Our founders felt the need to put their thoughts into words when they wrote the Declaration. And, yes, much of the Declaration of Independence was basically paraphrased (I guess Hillary Herd members would cry plagiarized) from John Locke and others. The WORDS did make a difference, not because they were particularly original, but because they were inspirational.

The difference between Hillary's words and Obama's words is not that either one of them write their own. The difference is that Obama's inspire and Hillary talks about Hillary and her 35 years of so-called experience and being ready on day one and in it to win and listing some policy stuff in between knocking Obama.

Obama was not my first choice, nor even my 2nd or 3rd. However, since the choice has been shoved down our throats as Obama vs Hillary I will go with who can lead our country better. And, like FDR, JFK, and our founding fathers....as Obama has referenced.....words DO make a difference.

Actually, Hillary would have won by now if she had come up with some WORDS that showed a reason for her candidacy. All she could come up with was "in it to win". THAT is why there was a vaccuum which Obama was able to fill with inspirational WORDS.

As I see it, Hillary has decided that the only hope she has now is to try to drag down Obama to meet her negatives. The problem with this strategy is that it is going to depress voter turnout for either in the general election and make president McCain more likely.

It's not that I worship Obama or am a cultist. I just don't like Republican presidents, am tired of them, and I hate to see hillary and her herd make them more likely.

So it is not enough to brag about holding your nose and voting Democratic in November. What you should be doing is examining your campaign and speaking out when they are doing things to raise the negatives of both Democrats. We need to campaign smart or we are gonna lose in November. Even if we hold our noses, which apparently is about all we can get in the way of inspiration from the Hillary Herd.

[MADem]

70. I absolutely do not EXPECT you to "vote for my candidate." At all.

You can spout definitions until you are blue in the face. You can repeat "Hillary Herd" all day, like that's an invective along the lines of "Fucking Assholes." It makes no difference in the big picture. Perception is reality. And everyone perceives that this guy copied Deval's speeches, and copied Deval's campaign. Obama can thank that lazy ass "genius" he hired to run his game for him.

And it doesn't matter who wrote what. It doesn't matter if Hillary's words aren't as "good" as Obama's. Because Obama's are Deval's.

You can blame Hillary for "dragging poor Obama down" or you can blame Obama for COPYING. I mean, really--who made the decision to lift that material, with or without approval? Who was too lazy to write his own shit, or HIRE someone to write his own shit? Who thought they could roll out the National Version of Patrick For Governor...and NO ONE WOULD NOTICE? What HUBRIS--the guy is running for President--you'd think, if he's running on a platform of "NEW IDEAS" that his schtick might include a few new fucking speeches!

How HARD is that, really?

This IS resonating, and the way you can tell is by turning on the tv or radio and listening to what people are talking about. Unfortunately, they're starting to play it in rather heavy rotation on tee vee and radio, so ... uh, oh...that ain't good. And they are showing the compare and contrast video, and it is pretty much word-for-word. So that ain't good, either.


Scroll through this board, too--who's STARTING these whiney "Obama DID NOT COPY!!!" threads? Hmmmm? It's your team. Not that "Hillary Herd" you refer to so disdainfully. Your crew is obviously 'concerned.' Otherwise, you'd LET IT DROP. Every new thread on this topic is from the Obama crowd, angrily refuting on the one hand, and rebuking on the other.


I am not "bragging" about holding my nose. I'd MUCH prefer to be enthused. But I'm not going to lie and play a "Happy-Glad" game when the junior Senator from IL simply does NOT move me.

See, I actually don't think he's the Messiah. I don't, like Chris Matthews "Get a tingle up my leg." I don't want to cry like a preteen at American Idol when he appears, and I find his speeches incredibly boring and excessively generic (I realize now, that's because I heard Deval give them before--and his delivery was actually much better!).

I do think Obama does have that "bullshitter" quality about him, which could be a good quality if he makes it to the show--he'll hopefully use that talent to better effect than the last great bullshitter to occupy the Oval Office--Ronald Reagan.

We'll just have to see how this all shakes out.

[earthlover]

77. At what cost?

No, I do not use the term Hillary Herd as a synonym for fucking assholes. It started by observing how they seem to have one mind, and repeat the same stuff the others do, much like a herd of cattle. Then, as I observed how the herd runs roughshod over everything in its path like a stampede, it took on a second meaning. My impression of the herd is a bunch of cattle who individually would be pretty callow and mellow creatures but as the herd they act as one entity that often runs over whatever is in its path. I'm sorry, but in my view Hillary supporters are simply bovine.

I do not like how negative this campaign has gotten, but it does not surprise me watching the behavior of the hillary herd for the past year or so. They, from the start, were demeaning and condescending to anyone of other camps. They acted as if they had some sort of "entitlement" to a victory. And the first shot across the bow was from Hillary when she called Obama "irresponsible and frankly naive". For what? It was when Obama said he would talk with foreign leaders, even our enemies. And the Hillary Herd, in unison, said it would be so naive to talk with our enemies and this proved Obama was not ready yet (since when did the Democratic Party disdain diplomacy?).

A couple of weeks before Iowa, the Hillary campaign went negative. And they have continued ever since. It probably backfired in Iowa.

As they find themselves up against a wall, they are going even more negative. Obama got some help writing a speech from a friend and colleague who willingly gave the help. GASP! The Hillary Herd cried out in mock indignation. And you yourself made the grand assertion that ALL of Obama's speeches are copied! Get. A. Grip.

I don't think Obama is the Messiah. But he is a much better campaigner and much better speaker than Hillary. AFter listening to Bush mangle the English language it would be nice change of pace to hear someone with a way with words. And...sorry....Hillary does not have it. I don't think she could go two minutes without saying "you know" if she were paid a million dollars!

I am not particularly concerned in the short run. This will not help Hillary. However, what I AM concerned about is that this thing is just one more thing that the Hillary campaign is doing that is lowering the campaign to mud slinging. It is designed to reduce turnout, to turn off voters from voting actually (for the opponent). Problem is, our strength as a party is with high voter turnout. The more and more Democrats that are turned off from Obama (or Hillary), the less will vote in November.

This negative campaigning is going to have the effect of decreasing turnout among Democrats and independents in the general election. And this will help McCain.

Perhaps this is the only way Hillary can get the nomination. But at what cost?

[MADem]

78. Oh, you're being a bit disingenously partisan now. Have a peek at the board this evening.

That Hillary Herd is in the barn, and the Obama Gaggle is running roughshod round the farmyard, tearing up everything in its path.

I did NOT make the assertion that "all" Obama's speeches are copied. Learn to read and be ACCURATE. Perhaps your perception is impacted by your inaccuracy in digesting the written word.

The Obama campaign is busy doing all that "lowering" you're worried about. Here's a priceless example, it starts out Hillary the party's over, now get the fuck out! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4672565

Then we've got FAT LADY SINGING, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4672497 with the obligato pantsuit commentary,

And let's not overlook THESE gems from the "elevating" Obama supporters. You really need to spare me the "lowering the campaign to mud slinging" horsehit, thanks anyway.

She voted for war, so show her the door Hillary, exit stage left, thanks see ya bye bye http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4671975 Lady Hindenburg crashed and burned tonight... Get OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOver it, Hillbots... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4670668 So, let's start counting the HillBot sour grapes threads starting now (9:45 EST). http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4670475 Take your negative shit and go home Hillary http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4669727


I don't think any Clinton supporters could top the sort of shit that "victorious" Obama supporters are posting here this evening--though the truly egregious comments have been taken down.

I honestly don't care to be associated with people who "celebrate" like this. They're doing a wonderful job of supressing voter turnout with this kind of crap.

If, at the end of all this, we end up saying "Heeeeeere's JOHNNY!!!" and watch President elect McCain take the oath of office in January, I will lay the blame squarely at the feet of fuckwads like these who are affiliated with The Anointed One. They don't have a HOPE and CHANGE attitude...it's more like a FUCK and YOU attitude!

At what cost...indeed?

[earthlover]

79. So you complain about rude obama posters then call people..your words..."fuckwads"

I guess it is ok for you to call names because you are part of the herd?

You tried to make the point that the so-called plagiarism was going to be a big time issue. I guess the people of Wisconsin proved you wrong! I noted that the exit polls had a majority thinking hillary was too negative. Perhaps it backfired on her to be throwing mud like that. In any case, you seemed to be intent that it was going to hurt Obama. It. Didn't.

Well, sorry for your loss. I am particularly sad to see that hillary did not at any point during her speech make a thank you to all the supporters she had for Wisconsin. A lot of you really worked hard. Seemed to me that was a pretty significant amount of time they contributed. Without even a 15 second thank you. Oh well.... It is all about Hillary. It is not about her volunteers.

[MADem]

80. Anyone who talks about a candidate in that fashion IS a fuckwad.

It's not being rude, it is quite DESCRIPTIVE.

You think those fuckwads are temperate, moderate commentators? With that kind of invective?

Please.

How do you know that the plagiarism didn't shrink her margin of loss, HMMMM?

I heard everyone here boasting of a seventeen point blowout yesterday.

Perhaps the story shrank that margin, for all we know.

I don't know WHAT Senator Clinton said. Obama didn't wait for her to finish her remarks before he did his victory lap.

I find it funny how you folks seem to think that campaign supporters need to have their asses patted for working for a cause that they believe in. I've seen this pattern more than once. Just because you folks need to be coddled, that doesn't translate to the people who back Clinton. We don't need our hands held.

See, people who are on a team don't need to be "thanked" by the team leader. They get their "thanks" by participating in the process and helping their chosen candidate. It's a different viewpoint, I guess--generational, certainly. Younger kids got continuous, constant praise when they were young, and I guess that generation just expects and NEEDS it in order to stay motivated.

:shrug:

[earthlover]

83. I am eligible for senior citizen discounts, and I have seen lots of candidates over my years

And I just can't recall (maybe its my memory) many candidates who would not make even a token thank you during a concession speech. In fact, most concession speeches congratulate the victor. Hell, Hillary's concession speech (the rest of it was aired later) did not thank her supporters, neither did she congratulate the winner! Last week's concession speech didn't congratulate the winner or acknowledte defeat either.

It's common courtesy. And illustrative. Perhaps if she had a little more manners and humility, if the whole thing was not so much about her, she would connect with more voters and not HAVE to give so many concession speeches.

There will be future concession speeches by Hillary. I hope that in the future she shows more awareness that the world does not end at the tip of her nose.

[MADem]

81. ........................

[Skittles]

43. OH YES

YOU ALL SOUND SO ADULT-LIKE :rofl:

[MADem]

28. I beg your pardon?

Who is making false allegations here?

Did Obama copy Deval? Why YES, HE CAN...and YES, HE DID!!!

Do you BELIEVE he CHANGED any of those speeches?

Why, NO, he DIDN'T!

The only thing in that entire con-job campaign that 'belongs' to Obama is that "Fired Up, Ready to Go" line that he got from Grandma in the big hat.

All the rest of it? It was TEST MARKETED in Massachusetts. It worked there. Now, the "product" is being rolled out for a national debut, and the unquestioning MTV generation is 'digging' it.

But then, they find out it isn't "real." It's all copied. It's mass marketed. It's...inauthentic. It's even worse than that--it's POLITICS as USUAL.

You're just pissed off because you've been LIED to. That's what all these whining threads are about. You guys are trying to convince yourself that this mass marketed, insincere, bullshit copycat campaign is "for real." And you've been played, but you're too invested to back out--so you whine, and try to take it out on the messengers.

And there's nothing "cowardly" about stating those troubling facts.

But there IS something VERY cowardly about calling people who speak the truth cowards.

[AtomicKitten]

33. You're not supposed to peek when you have people on ignore.

You and your candidate of choice represent the very worst of the Democratic Party. Your swift-boating is disgusting. You are make a grievous error in this behavior. Democrats will NEVER support Hillary Clinton if she manages to steal this nomination. Just as she, and you, deserve.

[MADem]

36. I don't "have people on ignore." Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

Like your whinging little remarks would be anything more than a minor perturbance...if THAT?

:rofl:

I represent the very worst of the Democratic Party, eh? My, what a CLASSY statement! From such a CLASSY poster!

My stating facts is now, per the Lord of the Flies/Children's Crusade, "swiftboating?"

What the fuck are you buncha tender flowers gonna do when the McCain machine comes after your asses? Cry when he's mean to you? Stomp your foot when he swiftboats your boy? Look to the BOOMER-Geezer-Adults to bail your whiney little asses out?

Or maybe you can chant: How about a few bars of "Yes We CAN!" Or "Change we can BEEEELIEEEVE in!!" It worked for DEVAL, after all.

Better still, roll out Barack's only original idea, the one he got from Grandma--"Fired up, Ready to Go?" You'd BETTER be! Because if this kind of childish whining is your "response," I've got two words for you:

You're FUCKED.

McCain will eat you fools for lunch. And we'll have you and your fellow pouting thuggypunks to thank for Four More Years.

Heckuvajob, Brownie!

[casus belli]

39. Nah, we were counting on people like you actually supporting the candidate...

Guess that's out then. So your "you're fucked" is a self-fulfilling prophecy then. It'll be Obama haters blaming Obama for destroying the Democratic chances of a win, even though they were the ones who refused to vote for him.

It's not McCain I'm worried about at this point. He's got enough baggage for us to cherry pick only the most sordid details and throw the rest away. McCain isn't a realistic threat to either one of our candidates, since there's absolutely no way he'll ever unite all the factions struggling for influence in the GOP. It's self-defeating Democrats that worry me. People such as yourself, who appear to be ready to throw away the party's chances of a win because their "guy" didn't win.

Your logic is like beating up your little sister, because if someone's going to do it, might as well be you right? We should be focusing on straight up deabte here, rather than diminishing the viability of both of our candidates by dragging them through the mud before the real contest even starts.

[MADem]

56. I have stated that I will hold my nose, and, with a feeling like I am marching to my own execution,

vote for Obama, even though I think he is a bullshit artist, a Chicago pol, a bit crooked, inexperienced, and likely to have his skinny ass handed to him by "Go, Johnny, Go." I have said this dozens of times. It is not a new position.

I will hope he doesn't meet with Ahmadinejad without preconditions, OR bomb Pakistan, as he said he would.

However, my one reluctant--and it WILL be reluctant--vote is not decisive, now, is it? And if I feel this PROFOUNDLY reluctant, imagine how people who aren't as ardently supportive of the party, as I am, might feel?

Of course, the Obama crowd, like one noted moron on this thread, has already boldly stated that Clinton will NEVER get that "precious" Obama acolyte vote. So I guess that shit doesn't roll both ways, now, does it?

I heard from one of my neighbors, a few weeks ago, that McCain was the back-up if HRC tanked, and I thought it was a one-off. I've heard it four or five times since then. And it's Obama's own damn fault. And his snarky little "supporters." They drum up more dislike for the guy than McCain ever could.

How many times can you flip on CSPAN and hear the same old Hope/Change/Believe bullshit--the same shit we heard when DEVAL was running? And honestly? Deval's delivery was more sincere--maybe because he wasn't "copying" it.

McCain has been VETTED. There's NOTHING you can throw at him. Read his book. He drank, he smoked, he whored around, he did lousy at the Academy, he cheated on his wife. It's all in there. Keating Five? Uh, FOUR of the five were DEMOCRATS. John GLENN was in that crowd. McCain was the one that came out with the "All I have is my integrity" line of bullshit. You won't touch him.

I'm not "beating up my sister." I'm telling you that Obama is a FLAWED candidate, and his lousy, and frankly stupid, many of them, "supporters" don't help him. They're rude little shits who are dismissive of older Americans, and they don't think they need to explain their candidate's stances on anything. On closer inspection, it becomes plain that they don't KNOW their candidate's stances on anything, and they get testy--like their candidate--when pressed. They come off like Scientologists, and that, like it or not, deny it if you want, is the truth. And it is CREEPY.

I do think the bloom is coming off the Obama rose. It probably will be too late, and we'll be stuck with a very imperfect candidate. It'll be "Be Clean For Gene" all over again. And we know how that worked out...

Four more fucking years.

[casus belli]

61. I'm going to have to agree with you...

...the shit DOES roll both ways. I'm not an apologist for people using these tactics who happen to support Obama. I don't think it does our eventual candidate any good to have gone 7 Heavyweight rounds before they ever even step foot in the ring for the "real" fight.

Where we part ways is how convinced you are that McCain is so impervious to damage. He can't even get a consensus among his own party, he doesn't stand a chance in hell against either of our candidates. Unless they are somehow able to rally the GOP to show up for a vote against a candidate. I think the GOP's hatred of Hillary stands a far better chance of achieving that end than Obama, but obviously that's not a point I expect you to agree with.

Ultimately, I think the campaign could do with a healthy injection of civility - from BOTH sides. The GOP is going to have a very clear advantage over us in that they don't have a protracted contest going on. They'll have more time to rally around McCain and convince some of the conservative holdouts to hold their nose and pull the lever. We should be focusing, now, on that eventuality. Our weakness could wind up being our strength if we use it correctly. Right wingers are going to have to build two counter strategies until we have our nominee. If we run a civil primary, we can use that to our advantage. If, however, we implode and drag our own candidates through the mud, they'll only have to watch us scratching each other up to find some points that will stick.

I agree with you that Obama is imperfect. But, so is Hillary. So is the process, and so is the system. Ultimately, we have to focus, as a party, on what is best to push forward progressive ideals. I don't think we have a candidate whose progressive credentials can be questioned. And ultimately it doesn't matter, because the GOP's strategy will be to paint either candidate as completely out of the mainstream liberal, hell bent on pushing communism and higher taxes into every American home along with an illegal immigrant.

[MADem]

67. McCain WILL have that consensus. They're playing the "Don't Throw Me in That Briar Patch" game

Already, the coalescing is beginning. The Romney endorsement this week, the Poppy "Carlyle Group" Bush endorsement to get the creepy, secretive, backstage bums in line...and when Mike "Dino Walked the Earth With Fred Flintstone" Huckabee is given a sweet piece of pie (maybe Secretary of Education, with a mandate to put prayer back in school?) those fundies will fall into lockstep with NO trouble. Put Mikie out there stumping for Popeye--even as anything OTHER than the VP nominee--and he'll get them to the polls. I can hear him now--it's about those ACTIVIST JUDGES!! McCain has PROMISED he'll keep the Supreme Court stacked with Alitos and Scalias, we MUST vote for him for that reason ALONE!

Same with Mitt. Maybe Mitt would like Commerce, or better still, TREASURY Secretary, to keep himself busy? What DO you want, Mitt? You deliver me those Mormons, those businessbum pals of yours with their deep pockets, and we'll talk!

You watch. After playing the whining skeptic, the right wing radio bozos will gradually, slowly...dragging it out like it's a Mexican telenovela...come around to McCain. They'll gripe, they'll cry, they'll beat their breasts...and then, at the last possible minute, they'll start exhorting their listeners to vote for that ticket. And their listeners WILL!! Because their radio heroes SHARED with them their long, angst-filled journey to 'acceptance' of the candidate. They went down that road TOGETHER!

And all while this is going on, they'll swiftboat. If it's Clinton, they'll go after Bill. They'll insist the poor bastard with his bum ticker is screwing everyone from Barbara Streisand to Rosie O'Donnell (yes that was a joke, but only just). If it's Obama, who knows where they'll go? Maybe they'll pull an ALEX POLIER http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/features/9221/ on him. Make him WASTE a week or three proving a negative. Maybe they'll find some "anything for money" type who will claim that Obama is her Baby-Daddy. That's always good for a salacious, wasted week. They'll revisit the drugs, of COURSE. And if that doesn't work, they'll go after his FAMILY. It's what they do. And on the issues? McCain can say "When I sang Bomb bomb Iran, I was JOKING--Obama said he wants to bomb PAKISTAN!" And then they roll the tape...

And I will tell you, and I am NOT being hyperbolic--I'm surprised at how many people here in BlueMASS that I know, in the past few weeks (total of four, so far--and one is a total shock, frankly--the other three are fairly liberal vets) who say they'd hold their nose and vote for McCain over Obama if HRC doesn't make it. He's just NOT impressing them. Worse, he makes them feel "unwelcome." That politics of inclusion doesn't include geezers, I guess! And military geezers? We're like right-wing subversives to that crew!

[MADem]

68. Pardon my doubleclick!

[AtomicKitten]

40. Can't decide --

if your vulgarity outshines your ignorance.

I so look forward to Barack putting all this bullshit to rest finally - the bullshit that choked the 1990s, the same bullshit you are soaking in - when he wins the nomination.

You are everything about the Clintons that Democrats are rejecting from coast to coast. I am glad to be reminded of the ugliness you represent because it makes it all that much easier for us to turn our backs on you. And we are. Millions of us. Yes, we can.

[lapfog_1]

44. Just put them all on ignore...

DU is much nicer that way. And, at this point, there aren't too many visitors here that haven't made up their minds.

The Hillary people will believe what they want, and the Obama people will believe what they want.

Attempting even to debunk the lies and distortions that come from the poo flinging flying monkeys is silly now. Let them go ahead and call us children. Kool-aid drinkers. cult members. or worse. Let them get their marching orders from HRC every morning on the "Obama scandal of the day"... and they can post that crap here and agree with each other all they want. It won't matter. Hillary isn't going to win Wisconsin or Hawaii or Texas... and maybe not even Ohio. And then it's over.

[AtomicKitten]

48. already done and you are correct

Cheers!

[MADem]

47. My vulgarity is entirely appropriate to the occasion.

And as for ignorance, hold up your little hand mirror. You'll get a great view of the personification of that term.

Turn those backs, yes, you can! That's typical of your crew--the "Take ball, go home" crowd. But it's expected.

:hi:

[Skittles]

45. it reminds me of freepers

yes INDEED

[MADem]

60. Jesus--will they post a guard and not let us use their porta-potties?

:rofl:

Remember that pic of some idiot guarding the porta-crappers against incursions by "liberals" when those clowns had a counterdemonstration on the mall in DC? They had something like fifty shitters and twenty demonstrators!

[casus belli]

21. That's what happens...

when you Swiftboat one of your own.

[AtomicKitten]

27. ClintonCo forgets we've seen the cheesy moves before and rejected it then.

[casus belli]

35. Not sure why they expect us to act differently...

doesn't matter to me if its coming from a right-winger or one of us. Swiftboating is BS, and only shows that the candidate doing it can't fight on the issues alone. They have to create "straw issues" that they can debate instead. It's like watching the intentional "Jerry Springerization" of politics.

[Sapphocrat]

51. I have pride...

...in my own independent ability to judge what I see for myself, and to resist being assimilated by Teh Borg. Thanks for caring, though! :hi:

[NMMNG]

54. ....

[racaulk]

76. Right click - Save

:rofl:

OMG, I love that one! Thanks for the laugh this morning! :hi:

[Perry Logan]

64. If you can do it, we can do it.

[DemGa]

73. Not plagiarism. Barack is a format -- a sham

He's lifted an entire campaign and passed it off as a "movement."

[demokatgurrl]

74. I am a Clinton supporter but don't lump me in on the "plagiarism issue"

I think it's bullshit. I think it 's a big mistake IF the Clinton campaign actually said it (I have yet to see that though). I would have thought they'd be smart enough to know that it's not "plagiarism" if the original speaker SUGGESTED using it.

So do you realize how silly YOU sound with your question???????