Maybe It's Time For A Little Smack Of Reality As It Relates To Obama's False Superiority.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

So many Obama supporters here want to come off as if he's so superior to Hillary. They try to act as if he's just so unstoppable and has totally kicked her ass or something. They talk their rhetoric as if Hillary was no match for him and he is just so much better than her somehow.

But that's not reality. Reality is that as it stands right now, he is not ahead like he is on his own merits. He is not ahead of her because he's so much better than she is. No. That's not reality.

The reality is, as it stands right now, he's only ahead the way he is due largely in part to a completely flawed, inaccurate, unrepresentative and disenfranchising caucus process that way too many states have. At the end of the day, THAT's why he's ahead as he is. That doesn't quite make him superior whatsoever.

Maybe that should humble you all just a little...

[TexasObserver]

1. Thank you, Hide Thread!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

85. Hillary has so many negatives she needs to try to drag Obama into the mud

its win win for her, her background is so sullied.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

137. it looks like she is desperate

[Nedsdag]

159. Not "looks like"

She IS desparate.

[polpilot]

304. Obama & People smacking down the DLC doesn't make me feel ,humble.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

152. ummmmm?........

[libbygurl]

297. Primaries should be closed to registered party members only.

Otherwise, it's so easy for the opposite party to game the system and screw up the nomination for one party.

[jackson_dem]

198. Her negatives are the same as Obama's with Democrats

But you raise an interesting point. Obama attacks Hillary for being attacked by Republicans. :wtf: That is what the whole "polarizing" BS is about.

[dicknbush]

250. ITs only sullied because people like you buy into the right winged smear campaign

[rbking]

267. Please

There are two things that Sen. Clinton's supporters do that are really pissing me off. One is this notion that those of us that feel negatively toward Sen. Clinton have somehow bought the right wing smear campaign. The other is that those of us who support Sen. Obama have been drinking the kool aid. First, I haven't had kool aid since LBJ was in the oval office. There are actual reasons to support Sen. Obama. In fact, many of Sen. Clinton's supporters were probably saying what a wonderful guy he was when he gave the keynote at the 2004 convention. As for Sen. Clinton's reputation, I'm sorry, but the scandals (real and imagined) cost the democrats control of both houses of congress when her husband was in office. They cost Gore the 2000 election. You can say that it was stolen, and it was, but it would not have been close enough to steal if it hadn't been for scandal fatigue. Bill Clinton didn't get 50% of the vote in either election he won. So get the fuck over the idea that the Clinton's are so universally loved. They look great compared to Bush, but then again, so does Dick Nixon.

[niceypoo]

303. Its the Ken Starr talking points we hear so often, for starters...

The obsessive attacks against the Clintons we see from Obama supporters are definately an extention of republicans doing same for the last 15 years.

[niceypoo]

302. Obama is running the dirtiest campaign in Democratic history

He is doing exactly what Bush did in 2000 and 2004, pretending to be above the fray and saying nothing while his supporters engage in a blanket party on his rivals. When he does say anything it is always a reaction to Hillary. He is running as an anti-Hillary, until he defines himself otherwise, I see no substance whatsoever. His supporters never ever talk about issues, all they talk about is Hillary Hillary Hillary.

[Elspeth]

325. That makes Hillary, Al Gore--policy wonk. (That fits)

Americans never learn.

[rndmprsn]

124. amen...and block idiots too!

[tbl92666]

139. Great post

And 100% true. The current system stinks -- it gives way too much power to the media (for spin) and states that do not matter in the general election. It should be 100% primary, for all states, for both parties, on the same day.

[Hepburn]

2. ....

:eyes:

Can't you accept the fact that he is ahead for various reasons...such as people fucking hate Hillary Clinton??

[MyNameGoesHere]

83. Hate is always a good thing.

Vote Obama because you hate. Now that is the message i cannot get behind. I will not vote for him but it is not due to hate. But if that is the Obama message i should hope you can live with it.

[DogPoundPup]

221. That is just nonsense, Just an easy Rovian remark

You learned well.

[MyNameGoesHere]

335. First you need a clue.

Second I was sarcastically responding to a poster that said people just fucking hate Hillary Clinton. And when you get back in sync maybe you can post something other than blather.

[DogPoundPup]

339. Got your Rovian remark without question...read it again

Copied it for your re-reading enjoyment--->..."Vote Obama because you hate. Now that is the message i cannot get behind. I will not vote for him but it is not due to hate. But if that is the Obama message i should hope you can live with it."

NO SUCH OBAMA MESSAGE IN THE ORIGINAL COMMENT THAT YOU RESPONDED TO ... the only thing the original poster said was that too many people HATE Hillary. (I don't hate her...but I DEFINATELY DO NOT LIKE HER)

So now do you see why I believe you have learned Rovian well, Grasshopper?

[DogPoundPup]

340. Oh and something else,

I don't intend to vote for EITHER HILL OR OBAMA in the primary, since the McMedia decided for all of us who 'we' get to decide from. I'll be writing in my choice for nominee. If I'm forced to throw my vote away, it may as well be following my conscience than 'playing' the hatefilled game all of you are involved in. It is comical to watch ya'll fight and try to claw one anothers eyes out on the keyboards though. :D

[MyNameGoesHere]

347. Ya'll?

What are you one of them?

[DogPoundPup]

217. So True...Lotsa' people just don't like Hillary

:nopity:

I do have to wonder if her and Bill will split now after he did such a 'fine job' of campaigning for her to lose the nomination.

[JoFerret]

237. And lots will learn not to like Barak

All bubbles burst.

[DogPoundPup]

294. Well if you like McCain better...

So be it. It's your vote to do what you want; IF it gets counted.

[aasleka]

3. !

If she can't inspire people to run a caucus how is she going to inspire people to run an effective government, that has been the point.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. Oh that's brilliant!

:eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

183. Not even close. Working people work for a living.

Working people can't take time off of work to attend caucuses. Primaries afford people ALL DAY LONG to vote. I vote at 7:00 in the morning. MANY people can only vote BEFORE they go to work or LATE.... AFTER they finish working. Primaries usually run 7:00AM to 7:00PM..... When you allot an hour or 2 at a specific time during a day, MANY people can't fit that 1-2 hours into their day if they have to WORK for a living.

[RaleighNCDUer]

241. Wouldn't that really benefit Hillary's prime demographic of older,

retired women?

If Obama's prime demographics are highly educated professionals and students, aren't they just as likely to be disenfranchised by a caucus as your 'working people'? Can students blow off a day's classes and tests? Can lawyers and physicians blow off their clients?

Seems like a bogus argument, to me.

[polmaven]

293. Older RETIRED women?

The age bracket of Hillary's "demographic" is said to be 50+. The last I looked, 50 is n ot retirement age.....I, myself, will likely not be able to retire until I am 70+.

Do you not believe that the "highly educated professionals" and students are much more able to take a day off than are the working women in this country?

[Bake]

336. Can students blow off classes???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Did you actually GO to college? And you ask that? Stop, please, yer killin' me!

Can lawyers and doctors blow off their clients/patients? Who do you think is on the golf course every Wednesday?????

And of course, the idle rich liberals (or those still on the dole from their parents) can take their latte with them to the caucus.

Bake

[jbnow]

253. Pssst. Obama supporters also work. Fewer people

work in the evening or on weekends when the caucuses tend to be held but some people do.
and some of them are Hillary supporters and some are Obama supporters.

A caucus result might not reflect what a more expensive primary vote would but it does reflect the vote of those who care enough to go through the inconvenience.

[polmaven]

290. Pssst...

Have you looked at the demographics of the caucuses? They are usually the higher income folks who may be more able to take a day off from work to attend a caucus.

Losing a day's pay, for many of Hillary's supporters, is much more than an "inconvenience".

[DWilliamsamh]

315. I was trying to figure out where I heard this logic before... It came to me....

I have heard this exact "logic" used by O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Medved, Savage(Weiner) Et Al. Of course they usually aim it at anti-war protesters and environmentalists in their attempt to somehow brandish the "we represent the working people" sword. Or that working people don't support "those people."

I don't buy it from them and I certainly don't by it from you.

[polmaven]

327. I don't even know what that means...

If you are trying to say that those men are saying that somehow it is easy for the working folks to get a day off when they want it, then yes, that is what the neocons will claim when it suits their purposes.

If you are saying that it really is as easy for the lowert income people to take a day off as it is for the busiiness owners, and/or higher income people with vacation time, "floating holidays" and plenty of "sick time" to use, then you are simply wrong.

With many of the lower paying jobs, when you take a day off, you lose a day's pay. I call that much more that an "incovenience".

[DWilliamsamh]

329. No I am saying you are parroting their illogical point:

The point being that only "the elite" have the ability to participate in the political process. The only difference between you and Limbaugh et al is the political process that you are targeting. They speak of protests, you speak of caucuses.

While I do not doubt that it is more difficult (or at least more of a hardship) for lower income folks to take a day off work, I DO doubt very seriously that this somehow indicates that they have a different opinion as a group on the issue at hand. Whether that issue be global warming or who they support for the Democratic nomination. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact of the matter is that Obama has raised more money from more individual small contributors than any candidate in history. I think that is a pretty good indicator of broad support from the "common man."

Not to mention that not only has Obama won more Caucuses, he won more primaries. He is the front runner because more people VOTED for him.

[polmaven]

332. except that the ISSUE at hand in the post

was specifically CAUCUSES. If you do not believe in the demographics, then that is something on which we will disagree.......(And I am really going to object to being compared with the O'Limbeck crowd....:eyes: )

The primary process is not yet over, and we will see what shakes out when it is.

I am currently suppoting Hillary, but, if Senator Obama is the nominee, I will happily join that campaign and will proudly vote for the Democrat chosen at the convention.

[DWilliamsamh]

333. Its not that I don't believe in demographics or even your reporting of them

It is that I don't believe the demographics determine the vote (whether caucus or primary). I don't believe that what you imply from the demographics is true. I don't believe that en masse lower income people, working class people support Hillary Clinton and that but for the "unfair disadvantage of not being able to afford to take a day off from work" that this massive group would have tipped the scales for Hillary. What is the basis for your assertion that it would?

All of the trends are that Obama has cut into or taken the advantage in all of Hillary's core groups except white women over 50 years old. Do you think all women over 50 can't afford to take a day off for a caucus, but all other groups can? It's just not logical.

And the only reason I keep telling you that you are making an argument standard to O'Limbeck (nice one BTW LOL) is that I was HOPING to get you to re-examine your argument by jarring your sensibilities. No offense intended, so I apologize. And I agree, that though it looks fairly certain that Mr. Obama will be the Democratic nominee, should Ms. Clinton sheep through the states of Tx, Oh, and PA w/ 75% of the vote and then end up as the nominee, I will without hesitation one vote for her in the GE.

[miceelf]

323. odd

we heard nothing from the Clinton campaign or her supporters until AFTER Iowa about how undemocratic the caucus system was.

She's had, what, 35 years of experience? Why hasn't she spent some of that time trying to get the caucus system changed or at least speaking out against it until now?

[bridgit]

4. OMG, you are so gonna hurt that other guy's feelings...

:cry:

[griffi94]

5. here's some reality

obama is not unstoppable.....i expect him to win the nomination....and then i expect the media to turn on him and give him the hosing of a lifetime......at this point i just want the primaries to wrap up so we can get on with the mccain presidency.......then obama can go back to the senate as can hillary....and in 2012 she can run again.....

[Labors of Hercules]

20. Your attitude sucks.

And you can feel free to take it to hell with you... :grr:

[griffi94]

29. thanks

for allowing me to keep my attitude :rofl:

[LostinVA]

71. Good God

You channeled my thoughts. Seriously.

[Maddy McCall]

Nice avatar!

:hi:

[LostinVA]

102. Thanks -- I got it from a DU lesbian

Or so I heard.

[NMMNG]

210. OMG, Maddy wants Hillary?!?!

:rofl:

[nomorewhopper]

82. Obama has hundreds of thousands more votes than Hillary n/t

[JuniperLea]

96. Got link?

I see one poll with Hill up, one with Obama up, one with Hill up... seems pretty neck and neck to me. Even the big alphabet news agencies can't agree on how many delegates either one has.

[nomorewhopper]

169. i created a separate thread with the tallies

obama leads hillary by about 400-700k votes, depending if you count florida or not

[LostinVA]

162. I heard he has a rare dog, too

[Bake]

337. I didn't know we used a popular vote total to select our candidate.

I thought we used delegates, who went to a convention. Or something like that.

Bake

[CatnHat]

242. I agree

if obama wins the nomination, so what. He's not going to "change" anything.

[shaniqua6392]

6. OMC you absolutely rock!!

You should also point out that the reality is that the media is choosing our President for us once again. The Obama coverage is completely unbalanced in comparison to that of Clinton. They absolutely "gush" over his oratory skills. If I wanted to listen to a motivational speaker, I would pay for a seminar. I want action and substance. Peace and thanks to you OMC.

[paulk]

7. If Obama is to be our nominee

I'm hoping he shows the ability to win some big primaries... otherwise I have to worry about his ability to compete in the GE.

Winning caucus states like he has really doesn't show much beyond a good organization and the ability to bring out activists.

[Missy M]

8. Thanks for saying it .....

I agree and wonder where he would be without caucuses.

[lisa58]

9. did they keep the caucus process secret from Hillary's campaign?

...Hillary is behind (and not by much) because she (her campaign) didn't think she had a challenger of any consequence. She didn't prepare and it shows.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Apparently only the Obama campaign was told that caucuses existed, and that

in order to win a caucus you had to invest in a boots-to-billboards infrastructure.

[Divernan]

56. The complex Texas system has been in place for years, and

her highly paid people (Where has all the money gone - long time passing?)just decided to check it out THIS MONTH! Her campaign has made eggregious errors in judgement from the beginning and instead of learning from their mistakes, have simply doubled down. But hey, as long as she surrounded herself with loyal people who have admitted they were afraid to go to her to report problems, how could there possibly be any problems? After all the campaigns she went through with her husband, how could this train wreck have happened?

[truedelphi]

249. i can't say for sure why this train wreck happened

But knowing some very horrid things about her, it is making me start to think there was something to the New Age notion of *karma* after all!

[Occam Bandage]

10. You mean, he's ahead because he has a better ground game than she does? Because

he understood the importance of caucus states, while she thought she could win on the Rudy Strategy?

[cali]

12. I don't think he's so superior to her.

I do think he's run a far better campaign. It's that simple. You are flat wrong about how she lost because of how unfair the caucus system is. Clinton chose to put minimal resources into winning those states. In some cases she put NO resources into Caucus states. No staff, no offices. Nothing. He's ahead because he had a plan, and part of that plan involved tackling caucus states. Her plan entailed being unstoppable and winning on Feb. 5th. Not so wise.

[goclark]

37. I do think he has run a FAIR and good campaign ~ now as for

Billary's campaign ~ smear smear smear

[tishaLA]

153. I think both have run very good campaigns

I just think that Obama's campaign really DID prepare for the long haul in many ways--use of the internets, getting lots of small supporters, more effective boots on the ground operation--that the Clinton camps was a bit behind on. I also think that if her main opponent had been anyone except Sen Obama, she would have wrapped this thing up already; he was just lightning in a bottle.

[Ronnie]

343. "lightning in a bottle"

Great metaphor. Maybe you should think about what that means.

[RaleighNCDUer]

243. And she ran it that way because she assumed she would be the

nominee - she laid out her strategy as if she was running for the GE, by the typical DLC plan. Ignore the red states with low electoral votes, concentrate on big blue and swing states.

Bad strategy, bad planning, bad campaign.

[MethuenProgressive]

13. His entire campaign is about how great his campaign is.

[bpeale]

313. oh WOW! i love that pic! can i use it on my desktop please?

[jpak]

14. Reality check - Obama is ahead because more people voted for him

And how is awarding Michigan delegates to Clinton not a "flawed, inaccurate, unrepresentative disenfranchising process"???

All Democrats were invited to participate in my caucus. It was held on a Sunday and the delegates were awarded proportionally - just like a primary...(and Obama won).

:cry:

[depakid]

265. The OP has a point -caucuses are crude and archaic processes

that have no business proliferating in the 21st Century.

[Emit]

16. Link?

to back that up?

[KittyWampus]

17. Wake up! Can't you admit Hillary's campaign SUCKED FROM DAY ONE? How much more proof do you need?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. If You Want To Keep Denying Reality Feel Free.

But I'm right, you're wrong.

Without a flawed and unrepresentative of the people caucus process, he'd be losing, period.

[KittyWampus]

25. Your candidate chose to ignore caucus states and lost half of the "regular" primaries

[Occam Bandage]

26. Guess Hillary should have considered putting some effort into those states, instead of

just ceding them as "don't counts" to the Obama campaign. Looks like you're trying to place the blame everywhere but where it belongs--right on Hillary's incompetent shoulders.

[cali]

34. You should

learn the difference between REALITY and OPINION. What you expressed in your OP and in this post are merely an opinion. Your opinion may or may not jibe with the facts, but it's certainly not reality- unless you actually believe that subjective interpretation is reality. It's not. And flawed or not, Hillary had the same shots at the caucuses as Obama. She ignored them to her detriment.

[Divernan]

46. The only reality for OMC is his own ever-changing but always negative opinion

First he's undecided. Then he seems to be leaning toward one candidate. But no, now he's leaning toward the other. But wait! He says he could vote for either of them. And now we have this -insulting, hate-filled, non-productive, non-reasoned diatribe. Basically, you can expect him to express outrage toward whichever person he thinks might win.

[JuniperLea]

80. I think you are wrong... I think OMC is siding with truth...

I've had my share of head butting with him, but I also recognize when he is striving for fairness over emotions. I think that's what he's doing here.

I don't much like Obama or Clinton. I'll vote for the nom in the general, but until then, they can kiss my ass.

[Occam Bandage]

89. Fairness? Both candidates were aware of the delegate system, the caucus system,

the relationship between both, and how to win both. Obama ran an effective nationwide campaign, and concentrated on winning caucus states as well as primary states. Hillary thought she didn't have to, and it bit her in the ass.

[JuniperLea]

94. Right, so she's merely neck and neck with him...

Instead of ahead by a length... bfd.

They are the two-headed hydra, afaic.

[Occam Bandage]

97. Neck and neck, but she's almost out of gas with several laps left to go.

[JuniperLea]

99. Good to know your crystal ball is working so well... eom

[Mythsaje]

251. That's pretty much how I feel too. n/t

[MichiganVote]

204. "hate-filled"?? What are we now in a church here? Good grief, grow a spine why don't ya.

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bake]

338. If you knew OMC **at all** you wouldn't say that.

You are cordially invited to kiss my :kick:.

Bake

[theboss]

256. He just won an all-white primary in a fairly large state by nearly 20 points

What more does he have to do?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

320. Well The Momentum He Has Now Is Obvious.

Whether or not that momentum would've been the same in the absence of caucuses, is another issue altogether.

But from here on out? Yeah, he's pretty riding a huge snowball effect.

And I do think he's done great. I'm just saying in the OP that he's far more human and far closer to Hillary than some of his more delusional supporters would open their minds enough to realize.

[griffi94]

24. her campaign did suck from day 1

that hardly qualifies obama to be president....i'm barack obama and i approve this message....vote for me because hillarys campaign sucked from day 1....i and i alone can rally the activist vote and pull repubs in open primaries....lol

[Divernan]

63. It disqualifies her. If she can't run a campaign, she can't run a country.

nt

[griffi94]

92. right

because bush ran a winning campaign....lol

[harun]

88. What Hillary supporters don't get is that Obama is better because

he has better judgment. Hillary does what she can legally do to achieve more power. Obama does what is right. If that isn't a big difference then I don't know what is.

[Iris]

128. How so?

Give some examples, please.


Unless you, too, are an Obama n/t supporter.

[rox63]

19. Obama is ahead because he's run a better campaign

What was unexpected is that Clinton has run such a poor campaign.

[melody]

21. Hmmm, are you saying he's uppity?

I find that a troubling reaction.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

30. oops there it is...the Obama race card being played by as always Obamanites ONLY

[melody]

44. No, I'm suggesting the race card was being played by the OP

More than suggesting, I'm saying it outright.

And before the general 9 year old "neener neener" mindset takes hold, I should point out that I
greatly respect Hillary Clinton. I supported Edwards through my own primary and it was only a
slight preference that made me move toward Obama. I am not a "Obamanite" (whatever the hell that is).

[yardwork]

53. I feel the same way - I'm sorry to say it, but there it is.

I have only a slight preference for Hillary over Obama and will gladly support whomever is the nominee. I don't think that attacks like this on either candidate are helpful to getting Democrats elected, which should be our overriding common cause.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

177. OMC is definitely not a troll!

He's a longtime DUer, and while I disagree with him about this issue, I agree with many things he's posted over the years.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

182. Yes. I'm A Racist, A Bigot, And A Troll.

Are you really this braindead or do you just post stuff that makes you look completely idiotic as a hobby?

[rug]

200. Right on.

Especially post 121.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

79. I notice you're avoiding responding to any post

that points out actual facts. The fact is that the caucus system is no more inherently favorable to any given candidate. The fact is that Hillary CHOSE to ignore all the caucus states but Iowa and Nevada. In the vast majority of those states she had no staff and either no offices or far fewer offices than Obama. You simply can't deal with reality.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. I'm Not About To Sit Here And Respond To A Gazillion Ignorant Posts.

I presented the reality already. If you choose to ignore it that's your problem.

You are completely missing the point. Regardless of who won them, regardless of the efforts that go into them, regardless of any of that; caucuses are a completely flawed, unrepresentative and disenfranchising process that as it stands right now, are the main reason for Obama's being ahead. Now granted, they are part of the process. Granted, he won them fairly. Granted, he did more to win them than she did to some degree. But they still don't represent the will of the people by a long shot, no matter what. Had those states been primary states, things may have turned out to be completely different. The point is not whether he won them. The point is not whether he ran a better game there. The point is that some here try and make him out to be so superior to her, such a better candidate than her, or as if he's totally kicked her ass. But he hasn't. He's only where he is because of a any way you slice it completely flawed, unrepresentative and disenfranchising caucus process. The process is disenfranchising and unrepresentative no matter how much effort one did or didn't put forth or no matter WHO won them. So the point is that he is not anywhere near being as superior to her as some of his supporters want to make him out to be. They should be far more humble. He's only ahead because that many caucus states exist, and those caucus states truly don't reflect the voice of the people. They just don't.

[Occam Bandage]

101. But you're ONLY responding to the ignorant posts. You're ignoring the posts

that actually challenge your main point.

[yardwork]

176. I noticed that, too.

[scheming daemons]

105. Here's your "voice of the people"

According to RealClearPolitics.com:

Popular vote thus far:

Obama 10,115,555
Clinton 9,705,909

a 400,000+ vote lead nationally for Obama.

That includes Florida.

Take out Florida, and Obama leads by 700,000+ votes.


By any measure you want, Obama is beating Hillary.


And you completely miss the irony of your point. Hillary knew the realities of the game, and played it badly. That shows she is an ineffective executive. As President, she won't get to define the "rules of the game" when dealing with important issues...she'll have to properly manage her administration.

This primary/caucus season has PROVEN, and you even readily admit it, that she is ineffective at managing a big operation.

Her campaign has proven her incompetence.

Your whining posts even reference her lack of competence, and you disregard her lack of competence as being unimportant.

Her campaign hemorraged money to the point that she had to loan her campaign $5 million after blowing through $130 million. Is this how she'll manage a budget?

At every step of the way, Obama has proven himself to be a more effective executive (and the Presidency is the ULTIMATE "executive position") than Hillary.

Their very campaigns prove Obama's superiority to lead more than Hillary.


You can cry about the "will of the people" all you want.... but in the 32 states that have voted so far, nearly a half million MORE people have voted for Obama.


Your candidate is done. The only question left is when she finally realizes it.

[cali]

110. clearly you haven't the vaguest idea of what constitutes

the difference between opinon and fact/reality. It's rather sad. You've expressed utterly fact free opinion and you're under the illusion that it's reality. It's not. This is simple stuff. You're a bright enough guy. You should be able to grasp it.

Caucuses may be unfair, but you've failed to explain why they're anymore unfair to Clinton than to Obama. You haven't done your homework. She ignored most caucus states. It was a strategic error. And you seem to be unable to see something that couldn't be more obvious.

Now that's ignorant.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. "Caucuses may be unfair"

Bingo. You're done. C-ya.

:hi:

[scheming daemons]

114. Um... you STILL lose.....

Obama ahead of Clinton nationally by nearly half a million in POPULAR vote.


Disregard the caucus math..... POPULAR vote, which even YOU would say is a "fair" measure.


10.1 million for Obama
9.7 million for Clinton


YOU'RE DONE.

[cali]

117. Just as I thought

You're unable to rationally explain why caucuses were inherently more unfair to Obama than Clinton. Figures.

[Occam Bandage]

132. I would have, a priori, believed they would give the advantage to Clinton,

as she started the race with a huge advantage in infrastructure and in party-loyalist support, both of which are necessary to win caucuses. I believe his victories in caucus states are more indicative of his executive abilities than they are of some anti-Clinton bias in caucusing.

[cali]

163. I think they were equally challenging for both

but she chose to more or less opt out of those states. I suppose it made sense in the beginning, but after Iowa she should should have put a ground game in. I have no idea why she didn't.

[Marrah_G]

289. And he isn't ahead by much.

[PassingFair]

307. "They should be far more humble."

"I presented the reality already. If you choose to ignore it that's your problem."

:rofl:


As you are EVER SO HUMBLE!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

185. How is saying caucuses are unfair...racist???!@#$% That is the most BIZARRE thing I've EVER read!

If you don't know OMC is NOT a racist, then YOU have a problem. Shame on you.

[Voltaire99]

239. The term "playing the race card" makes you sound like Bill O'Reilly.

The term is associated with reaction. It's used by whites to shut down discussion of race.

Try and work on that, OK?

[CyberPieHole]

126. "Race card" much?

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. Y'all are slacking off. It took 21 posts to play the race card. n/t

[Marrah_G]

288. You are the one using the word Uppity...nice bit of racial flamebait.

:puke:

[ShortnFiery]

22. Oh Stop! IMO, it's not arrogance, but HOPE. We know it's not *near* over.

After months and months (and months) of the "Hillary's inevitable, just shut up and vote for her" meme, can you blame us when Obama is presently doing so well?

We're not idiots (no matter how some will try to characterize us) and are fully aware that this contest is NOT over.

Please don't do a James Carville by figuratively "pissing on our Rice Krispies?" :blush: :yoiks:

BTW dear OMC, "Doctor X," your merciless leader, has released you from your contract. <tweaking ;)>

http://www.apollowebworks.com/russell/mindcrime.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. ShortNFiery, If That's The Attitude You Have,

then this OP isn't geared towards you.

[ShortnFiery]

38. Thanks, I can be a real smart ass, but I would not ever underestimate the skill

of my political opponent(s). :-)

Have a good one! :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. By The Way;

Thank you so much for that link. I just THOROUGHLY enjoyed it. I never knew the real story about how Mary died and it was awesome to read it!

Seriously, that was an awesome link and one of the links I was most thankful to receive in quite some time!

:yourock:

[ShortnFiery]

143. de nada OMC ... :-)

:toast: :hi:

[snappyturtle]

23. Why don't you try to sell this to caucus people! Caucuses have

enjoyed over-flowing crowds...why is that? Sen. Clinton's machine isn't as powerfull as we thought. If she's the one with experience, why are caucuses such a challenge for her? I am tired of her whining about them. I am not humbled.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. Over Flowing Crowds My Ass.

Compare the numbers of caucus turnouts to that of the primary turnouts, then get back to me.

It is a completely flawed, unrepresentative and disenfranchising process. They should be totally done away with and I'm amazed we have so many of them. It just doesn't make sense.

[jpak]

84. In Maine - 46,000 people turned out for the Democratic Caucus compared to 17k in 2004

It was a record turnout and there *were* overflow crowds...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3177458

enjoy your fantasies!!!!!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. 46,000 ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! Don't You Get It?

You consider 46,000 to be representative of the people? Do you not understand how much more turnout there is when it's a primary? Are you so naive and closed minded that you just can't understand the point?

46,000 people ROFLMAO!!!!! What a hoot!!!!!

:rofl:

[jpak]

100. And how many more would have voted in a primary on a Tuesday in a snowstorm in Maine???

BTW - Maine's total population is 1.3 million - so yeah it was a GREAT BIG FUCKING TURNOUT...

and Obama won 60:40%

:rofl:

[Old and In the Way]

266. Indeed, it was huge.

In 2004, we had 21 people show up. 2008 we had 49. I enjoy the causcus system...people get to talk about why they are supporting their candidate. And there were absentee caucus ballots, too...so no excuse in Maine for not supporting your candidate. It was a blowout for Obama. Hillary supporters were nice, but didn't make much of a case to support her. It's not like people are uninformed about the issues and the candidates. She got smoked in our caucus. I've been voting Democrat since '72, so I've got a reasonably good handle on the candidates and where they stand.

I stood for Obama, but, if Hillary can convince enough people to vote for her, I'll happily vote for her in November. It's up to the Hillary supporters to get more people to vote for her. Sour grapes about caucuses is a rather silly excuse to explain your candidate's poor performance.

[snappyturtle]

166. I based my reply on what I saw on teevee.....too many people to

comfortably fit in facilities where caucuses met. The disenfranchised can also include primary elections where polls open after the train has left and close before the train arrives home,so should we get rid of them too? There's always going to be people who can't get to the polls or caucuses. Personally, I'd like to see voting, whichever type, to be over both weekend days....when MOST don't work or could fit one day or the other into their schedule.

[Telly Savalas]

224. I agree.

However the rules of the game were the same for both candidates ahead of time, and both candidates had very large budgets to organize GOTV efforts in caucus states.

We need a candidate that's experienced enough to read a situation like this and choose the best course of action to properly adapt to the situation, because that's the kind of experience which helps us win in November and that's the kind of experience which makes an effective president.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. they don't like FACTS

[Occam Bandage]

31. Fact: Hillary and Obama were equally aware that caucuses existed,

and were equally aware that winning a caucus state requires a heavier investment in campaign infrastructure.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. you miss the point...as usual

[Occam Bandage]

35. Hillary ran an atrocious campaign.

OMC is trying to blame everyone but the woman in charge of her collapse.

[Armstead]

36. I miss the point too -- Why couldn't Clinton have organized that effectively?

[Egnever]

33. The wheels are coming off the bus

So its Obamas fault that Hillary has no ground organization?

[tyne]

43. The irony

of the OM is thick.

Unbelievable.

[rodeodance]

48. i so not think many obamafolk are able to comprehend irony.

[yellowcanine]

59. Not to mentionClinton playing the plagiarism card when Hillary is running around saying

"Yes we can!" and "Fired up and ready to go!"

I can still support Hillary if she wins the nomination but I gotta admit that this little plagiarism gambit pisses me off royally. Really cheap seats crap, imo. And damn hypocritical to boot.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. well, my friend, I hate to say this, but

your opinion is no more valid than any one elses. And I think you are pretty off kilter here.

There are equally as many "Hillary supporters" on DU who have used any number of ways to try and claim that Hillary is "superior"- to Obama, if you are willing to be 'fair'.

The truth is, we work with the system we have, and the person who comes out 'winner' sometimes is the "best person for the job"- and sometimes they aren't. The US electoral system is flawed in all sorts of ways-

This primary shouldn't be about "humbling" anyone. It should be about choosing who is the best person to run this country, in a way that moves us forward in a better direction than we have been on.

Everything else dragged into this effort is just more than the baggage of each one of us drags with us through life. We cling to it as if our lives depend on it, and don't see how self-destructive it actually is.

often, until it is too late-

peace~

[yellowcanine]

40. Excuse Number 656 - OBAMA IS USING THE RULES TO WIN!

Oh my. Alert the political police.

How dare he try to get ahead by following the rules which everyone knew about up front? Unfair! Unfair!

[scheming daemons]

41. So you admit that Hillary's campaign miscalculated by ignoring the caucus states?

Is that the kind of people she will hire for her cabinet? Those that are unprepared for the job at hand?


Obama put a ground game in place in ALL the states.

Hillary ignored states that she deemed "unimportant".


It has bitten her squarely on the ass.

This is effective management????


Your post makes it clear that she is not a good executive. Maybe THAT should humble YOU just a little....


....but I doubt it.

[Occam Bandage]

45. Obama isn't superior! He's only proven that he's better at effective management of resources!

That means nothing!

[yardwork]

50. LOL! This argument is really silly, I agree.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

42. #468. Caucuses are unfair because the voters have to be motivated, and Clinton...

supporters can barely muster the energy to pull the lever for her. CHECK. Already heard that one.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

51. most people have to work to put food on their families during caucuses...is a picture emerging yet?

[Occam Bandage]

54. Latest excuse: "most people" are working from 7-8 pm.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

67. stay in school please

[Occam Bandage]

72. So you really believe that 51% of the electorate is working from 7-8?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

93. so you really know each states timetable for each of their caucuses?....let me reiterate

"stay in school"

it's evident that you can spout the Obama operatives line

[Occam Bandage]

98. So, which state's caucus occurred during business hours?

Also acceptable: any non-business hours in which 51%--that is to say, 'most'--of the electorate is working.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

125. 11:30 am in Las Vegas NE....you get it?...each state and each district sets its own time

NY state is like that too which happens to be the best kind...a Closed Primary.

down in the city the polls opened at 6 am...where I live in NY they didn't open until 12 noon and in Albany 7 am

[Occam Bandage]

129. And in Las Vegas, there were on-site caucuses, and the caucuses extended throughout the day.

Moreover, HRC won those.

[RaleighNCDUer]

246. NV caucus was on a weekend - no conflict w/ work for most people.

And for those who did work, they had those caucus sites AT THE WORKPLACES.

Sounds like a LOT of accomodation of 'working people'.

[ecdab]

285. Wasn't it Hillary that was trying to get the workplace caucus

sites in Nevada shut down because they were "unfair"?

[RaleighNCDUer]

326. And wouldn't that mean she was trying to make it harder for

working people to participate?

Bang up job she's doing, there.

[snappyturtle]

161. This excuse always gets me! I've had to go to the polls after work

and been in line over an hour....so...I don't get their point about caucuses. And, if people hate them all that much,DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT other than whine.

[yardwork]

57. That's probably why the more populist candidates did poorly.

Both Obama and Hillary have well-financed machines. Obama's has done a little better. I'd much prefer a more progressive candidate than either of them, but here we are.

[Occam Bandage]

58. Hm? Edwards way outperformed in Iowa. He snagged a close second,

and ran 20 points behind in every primary state afterwards until he dropped.

[yardwork]

62. But was totally ignored by the media and therefore given no momentum out of Iowa.

[Occam Bandage]

69. Edwards certainly did have trouble drawing media attention. He couldn't define himself effectively,

and he never really resonated with any aspect of the electorate. He might have done much better with a different advisor; Trippi is only good for an Iowa loss and a slow slide into obscurity.

[yardwork]

81. Study after study showed that Edwards got far less media attention than O. or H.

His candidacy was shut down by the media. I don't disagree about Trippi, but the real problem with his campaign was that he wasn't going to be allowed to be heard.

You can't budget me on this. I'm anti-corporatist and I think they've taken over.

[Occam Bandage]

86. Certainly he did. And Dodd got less attention than either,

and Lee Mercer less attention still. As Huckabee showed, populism does not prevent media coverage. Edwards did not run an effective campaign.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

87. that is a fair point, and an important one. It does not change the fact that

had her campaign been better organized, had her appeal been broader, had they allocated resources slightly differently she could have shown better in caucus states anyway and thus essentially be tied with O now....or, having stopped the perceived momentum, given the media something else entirely to talk about.

Contrast with O, who faces obstacles, political machinery, and an initial name-recognition gap in each state but who has a campaign that maneuvers around those problems. He shouldn't have won Virginia, Maryland, Connecticut, Delaware, Minnesota, Colorado primaries....etc etc etc. They should have all been California-style defeats.

[JVS]

213. "to put food on their families"

great reference :rofl:

[yardwork]

47. As a Hillary supporter, I don't find this tone to be helpful.

I disagree with using words like "smack" and "false superiority" when describing any Democrat's campaign. It's not helpful to the party as a whole.

We can disagree with a candidate or prefer another candidate without using loaded terms.

Furthermore, I disagree with your premise. The caucus process may be flawed in every way you name, but all candidates have to deal with it. Obama has dealt with it better than the others. That alone is a *good* sign of leadership.

Posts like this play into the Republican's hands.

[hughee99]

49. So Obama is only ahead because

he did better in the "completely flawed, inaccurate, unrepresentative and disenfranchising caucus process" that Hillary is much more familiar with than him? Hillary, who has been involved in this process twice before, couldn't figure out the system, but Obama could. So when they get to Washington, who would be more likely to figure out the system there and get things done? I thought "experience" was supposed to be Hillary's strong suit?

[stillcool]

74. My goodness...

this stuff is hard to follow. The winner is the loser, and the loser is the winner. Unless of course, the loser wins, then the winning loser becomes the real winner.

[nomorewhopper]

52. thanks for the smackdown! you must be so proud!

[The_Counsel]

61. So In Other Words...

...this was just another long-winded attempt to push the "caucuses don't count" mentality.

Thanks for playing. :eyes:

[yourguide]

64. HAHAHAHAHAHA

OK let's see-he's ahead in fundraising, ahead in the popular vote, ahead in delegates, and has won more states than she has.

He's ahead because your girl seems to think trying to steal pledged delegates is an OK way to win the election.

Your girl seems to think changing the rules and including MI and FL midstream is OK

Your girl seems to think it will be OK for her to win via superdelegate if she is behind in pledged delegates and the popular vote.

Amoungst tons of other reasons.

You poor Hillbots. Keep deluding yourself. Good luck with that.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occam Bandage]

78. I'm sorry, I missed the sexism. Where do you see sexism?

Is it in the phrase "your girl," which is a reference to her repeated "I'm your girl!" line?

[yourguide]

103. Sexism?

Sorry my friend, I am a woman and that's no more sexism than saying someone is wearing a cute dress.

Where are you guys getting sexism from?

[AX10]

65. Also, his smear campaign against her as well as the MSM.

on his side.

[AX10]

66. Also, his smear campaign against her as well as the MSM...

on his side.

[Spider Jerusalem]

68. He's ahead because the Clinton campaign thought they'd win in a walk.

And they had no strategic plan in place for coping with actual opposition.

Obama is ahead because the Clinton campaign dismissed the importance of organisation, and had no-one in place in any of the post-Super Tuesday states.

Had Senator Clinton's campaign paid attention to the importance of organisation and motivating grassroots support, instead of focusing on doing things from the top down, she would have done much better than she has in caucus states. Had she chosen to hold open local meetings for discussion of policy issues, rather than closed donation-only fundraisers, she would have been able to communicate better with caucus voters. She is VERY good at discussing policy issues with voters in such formats; it's a strength that was not utilised, to the detriment of her campaign.

Blaming the caucus format for losses that are better ascribed to the missteps, mistakes, and miscalculations made by the Clinton campaign seems like an attempt to shift the blame away from the campaign, where it belongs, and instead hold the process at fault.

[LostinVA]

73. You're gonna be flamed to Hell and back

But, you're right.

[Occam Bandage]

77. If Hillary can't figure out how to manage a caucus, how can she figure out how to run a country?

[Arugula Latte]

75. No one could have predicted that resting on "Inevitability" would be a lousy strategy.

If she's not competent enough to compete in the caucus system, she's not fit to be president.

[Orangepeel]

90. He's ahead because he's run a better campaign so far

He isn't a better person or a better democrat (although he isn't any worse either). But the Clinton campaign miscalculated and the Obama campaign took advantage of openings, including maximizing delegates from caucus states.

Everybody knew the rules going in and the Clinton campaign shouldn't have written off those states.

[Skip Intro]

104. K&R4OMC!

[cottonseed]

106. He is superior. Castro resigned today because of Obama.

He can read the tea leaves. Can you?

[Maddy McCall]

109. I hope that this is tongue in cheek...

but some Obama supporters are so crazed that they probably believe this.

[cottonseed]

148. It was.

I think you're being a little hard on some Obama supporters though. They'll take Wisconsin and Hawaii for him, and Texas and Ohio will go that way in a few weeks.

[Maddy McCall]

107. K/R

[pnwmom]

108. Coming from a caucus state, I agree with you. They're undemocratic and

a disgrace for our party.

Here in Washington, the voters approved a referendum calling for a primary, but the state Democrats refused to assign their delegates that way, so we're stuck with the caucuses. This required people who wanted to vote to turn up a couple hours ahead of time in order to get in -- and then when they got in, many places had standing room only. Then you had to endure the ordeal of people trying to talk you out of voting for your candidate -- secret ballots are NOT ALLOWED! It's a nightmare, and the candidate that results is NOT representative of who would be selected in a fair primary run that same day.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

116. I Must Admit: Prior To This Season I Was Unaware And Uninformed Of Caucuses And How They Worked.

Now that I know, I agree with you that they're a disgrace. And this has nothing to do with Obama winning them and Hillary not winning them. Truth be told, I lean towards either candidate right now and am still not sure who I truly support. But the concept of caucuses, of non secret balloting, of peer pressure, of shortened voting windows, of all of it, is very bothersome to me. I don't know why they exist as a legitimate way of selecting our candidate, and have been blown away by how much a part of the process they are. They're just so completely unprofessional and unrepresentative, and after learning about them my jaw dropped. Even in 5th grade we elected our class president through a more rigid standard.

[Occam Bandage]

130. Your ignorance of the process is understandable. HRC's apparent ignorance is not.

[pnwmom]

136. She's not ignorant. Unfortunately for her, a lot of her more mature supporters

simply don't have the time that college students, for example, have to sit in a caucus for hours in order to vote.

[Occam Bandage]

141. Actually, caucuses are traditionally dominated by older voters. Caucuses are all about

the strength of GOTV apparatuses, and Obama's is better. You point to Obama's youth vote (which is historically extremely unreliable), and I'll point to Clinton's elderly vote (which is historically extremely reliable). I'll be charitable and claim it's a wash.

[pnwmom]

144. Traditionally, but not this year. Not with the record number of voters

that are turning up everywhere. Normally, you're right, it's a hard core of voters with time on their hands. But young people came out in droves here in Washington anyway, and they were heavily leaning toward Obama.

Hopefully that will be very good for the party in the long run -- but it made caucuses even more of a crowded ordeal than they usually are.

[Occam Bandage]

147. Yeah, Obama has been flooding the caucuses with new voters. I think it will indeed

be very good for the party--and hopefully will lead to some caucus reforms. This year has been a rolling logistical disaster.

[pnwmom]

150. We don't need caucus reform in Washington -- we need

to get rid of them and replace them with the primary system that the voters already demanded and approved.

[RaleighNCDUer]

247. Democracy is not for the faint of heart.

It's a bare-knuckle business.

What a nightmare - having to stick up for your candidate!

[Thepricebreaker]

111. Want some Cheese with that Whine? n/t

[Maddy McCall]

118. Grow up.

I swear, are all you Obamababies 12 or something?

[Occam Bandage]

133. "Are all you Obamababies 12 or something?"

[endarkenment]

113. Wait, i thought it was because of those darned Republicans

voting in huge numbers for him in open primaries. Now it seems its because of closed caucus states. I guess its just because all the states where Obama wins just aren't the right sort of states. Pass the pie.

[aquart]

120. Not a chance. The Bushie-like arrogance continues.

And the entitlement! Mama mia!

[Mr.Fitzgibbons]

122. I personally find the Obama supporters offensively rude. I will probaby not vote for him

because of this. The supporters remind me of the most obnoxiously self-righteous types I knew as an undergrad at Berkeley. They would adopt a cause, act like anyone who did not support the cause was insane and/or evil, then became the worst despots imaginable once they got into a position of power (on say student gov.) Then of course they would proceed to vote against everything they had claimed to stand for, while mouthing all sorts of excuses. So the whole thing is rather disheartening.

[high density]

194. The same could be said about a multitude of Clinton supporters

Perhaps you should avoid this forum.

[milkyway]

123. Why didn't the oh-so-experienced, ready to lead on day 1, Hillary know this?

Obama has proven to be a much better executive than Hillary during this campaign. And your complaining it's unfair that he understood how to win and she didn't?

If the entire basis for your campaign is that you are the experienced politician who knows everything, your campaign collapses if you start losing.

While Queen Inevitable was preparing for her coronation, Obama was laying tripwires all across the country. She never saw it coming.

[Occam Bandage]

135. She was completely ready on Day 1. Day 2 kind of caught her by surprise.

[yourguide]

142. ROFL

Indeed...and apparently everything after Feb 5 caught her by surprise as well.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. So it's all the caucuses fault, eh?

And I suppose it's because of the primary states that don't count?

And the bad weather that's keeping the seniors at home?

[Forkboy]

131. The reality is that, as it stands right now, you're insane.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

134. If Hillary's so all-fired smart and experienced, she should have known how to work the caucuses.

They're hardly new to the political system. Sitting here whining about the caucuses after the fact doesn't do much of anything when she could have been out there paying attention to caucuses BEFORE they occurred, not after. I have no sympathy for her in that regard.

[LostinVA]

164. Caucuses disfavor the working class and single moms

Both are groups Hillary leads in.

They're the original way of voting in the US, from when only wealthy men voted. Our system needs to be overhauled, so we just have a primary day, and all primaries should be closed.

[Occam Bandage]

167. And strongly favor retirees and the elderly, which Hillary strongly leads.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

195. Sure. I don't necessarily see a problem with that.

Primaries work fine; there's no problem with overhauling the system. If Hillary has really been so concerned for her voters, however, she should have addressed this before the primary season even got underway. Perhaps she did and no one heard about it. :shrug: This complaining afterwards doesn't do much beyond make Hillary and Hillary supporters look desperate, however. Hillary misstepped in ignoring the caucus states, however, for whatever reason she chose to do so.

[jpak]

212. Maine's caucus was held on a Sunday and we had absentee ballots

Anyone that wanted to participate could participate with minimal effort.

You had to be a registered Democrat to vote and the delegates were awarded proportionally.

More Dems voted absentee in the Maine Dem Caucus than actually participated in the Maine Republic Caucus this year (which was amazing in itself).

No one was excluded - and there were plenty of Moms and Dads with kids at my caucus - our convener's adorable 3-YO daughter got up on stage and held onto her Dad the whole time he was up there...

(and Clinton won my caucus 10-6 delegates)

[theboss]

258. Bluehairs dominant caucuses

That's Hillary's strength.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

138. I think Hillary and her brain trust are the ones feeling humbled

these days. and rightly so.

[crawfish]

140. He's ahead because people are finally figuring out Hillary...

and don't really like what they see as much as they thought they would.

[TwilightGardener]

145. I think he's by far a better candidate, AND a better person, than she is.

[Orsino]

146. Well, I'm glad we've established the purpose of the forum is to "humble" each other.

It explains a lot, actually.

[ourbluenation]

149. superiority and unstoppable are not one in the same.

I don't think he's any more superior, and I do think he's unstoppable.

PS) I voted for Edwards.

[cooolandrew]

151. If Hillary was ahead in caucuses she would tell a different tale. Barack has shown more honesty...

...that is whypeople are for him. More dishonesty is not good for the country.

[Downtown Hound]

154. Keep telling yourself that

In the end, when Obama wins, it won't really matter. You'll pretty much just look like the guy shouting, "It's not fair! It's not fair! Waaahhh!" But by all means, lie to yourself if it makes you feel better.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

156. You Need To Learn How To Read And Not Be Such A Knee Jerk.

I never said I minded that he's ahead. In fact, I'm still uncertain as to who I really want to win.

What I do mind, is the tone and unbelievably overdramatic rhetoric from some of his supporters, as if he's the messiah and has whipped her so good, as if he's so superior to her. When it comes right down to it, that is a completely false and ignorant sentiment to hold and in reality they are neck and neck. This isn't about him winning. It's about giving his irrational, unrealistic and out of their minds supporters a bit of a smack of reality, to bring them back down to earth a bit.

[Downtown Hound]

171. I no how 2 reed

And given the content of your post, I find it very unlikely that you are unsure of as to who you want to win. This whole, "Obama is cult leader and all of his followers are wrapped up in him like lost children" is a bunch of bullshit. I wasn't even an original Obama supporter. My candidate was Edwards. But I believe Obama has the best chance of winning the GE for one simple reason: people like him. He inspires people. Believe it or not, that's actually a GOOD thing. All of you trying to deflate the air out of his tires with all of your "reality checks" are just a bunch of sore losers that can't accept the fact that there are many people out there that simply don't like Hillary, and they're not all sexist, chauvinistic pigs for not doing so.

Obama has won more votes than Hillary. That is a fact. Oh, I know, maybe all of the delegates that you say are making this election so unfair actually voted for him several thousand times apiece to make that happen. Yeah, that's it. Damn delegates always interfering with the will of the people.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

173. Awwwww, I Think You Need A Hug.

:hug:

There there. It'll allllllll be ok...

[Downtown Hound]

174. In other words

You can't debate the simple fact that Obama has more support than Hillary, which makes your entire point bullshit. So you went for the rather lame insult. Okay, have a nice day.

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

175. Awwwww, I Think You Need Another One.

:hug:

There there... It'll alllllll be ok.

[Downtown Hound]

178. Pathetic

I'm rather disappointed in you. I've never actually gotten into a flame war with you before even though I know your flame war abilities are supposed to be the stuff of legend on DU. Color me unimpressed. You present an unfounded argument and when you run into trouble backing it up, you go for the cheap shots. If you actually for one minute think that your first grade insult abilities are getting under my skin then you're even more clueless than I thought. Really, you should just quit while you're behind.

And just to answer your next great, highly whimsical post with that rapier-like wit you've repeatedly demonstrated (that was sarcasm in case you missed it), I don't need a hug, thanks.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

181. Oh Noes! We've Got A Lively One! I Need Help! C'mon DU'ers, Let's Help This Fella Out!

Group hug!!!!!

:grouphug:

There there... It's ok. It'll allllll be ok. There there.

[Downtown Hound]

184. Thanks for all the good wishes

But next time, I'd settle for you actually attempting to prove your point, which it's obvious that you can't. It's also obvious that when you're beaten, you'd rather not acknowledge it and resort to what you're doing right now. Although I find it amusing, it certainly doesn't make me respect you or what you have to say. Maybe you need a hug. There, there, now, it'll all be okay.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

186. C'mere You..

:hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya:

[in_cog_ni_to]

187. You "no" how to read? Maybe, but you can't SPELL! You "KNOW" how to read

is how THAT should read.

Obama inspires no one with the sense to know better.

[Downtown Hound]

190. Read the rest of my post

You may observe that it contains no spelling errors and excellent grammar. The headline was intended as a joke. But I guess some people really have a hard time grasping basic sarcasm.

[donheld]

155. Oh stop your sniveling.

It's so undignified. Blame a lousy campaign not the caucuses or anything else.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[endarkenment]

158. That settles it, even the OP agrees that the OP has a point. NT.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

165. That's One Of The Funniest Goddamn Replies I've Ever Read.

Loved it! Touche!

:rofl:

:toast:

[algol]

160. But what is the reality?

not feeling humbled either.

[dionysus]

170. someone took their bitter pills today i see...

[BuyingThyme]

172. And because he was previously first lady.

Oh, wait. That was the other one.

[in_cog_ni_to]

179. SO FREAKIN' TRUE! I might add that another reason he's ahead is he's had NO SCRUTINY by the MSM

and they ALL have given him a FREE RIDE. While BO is afforded his FREE RIDE, Hillary has been bashed ENDLESSLY by the MSM.

I think, in SPITE of the caucuses and the MSM, she has done a pretty damn good job.

As soon as they start nit picking everything HE does, we'll see him plummet in the polls. He's all talk, no substance.

K & R! GREAT post.

[McCamy Taylor]

254. The corporate media is attacking him now that his delegate count is up.

This is part of the "Brokered Democratic Convention" strategy that I have been writing about. The very minute that Obama got above Hillary, Tweety stopped picking on her and started picking on him. Tonight was one long smear Obamafest on MSNBC. They are not doing it because they love Hillary. They want supporters of the two candidates to fight all the way to Denver. Did you see Nora O'Donnell with her news scroll Convention in Chaos smirking as she talked about how the Democratic Convention might turn into Chicago 1968 with riots?

So, do not make the mistake of thinking that the corporate media has ever favored either Dem. They have had only one goal--to make sure that they arrive in Denver with an equal number of delegates and with angry supporters.

[maximusveritas]

180. We're the ones who need to be humbled when you refuse to give him any credit?

And say the only reason he's ahead is because of the caucus system, even though he's won plenty of normal votes and leads in most of the national polls now? What a joke.

[mudesi]

188. Actually, he's ahead because Clinton VOTED FOR THE WAR

I don't know why you people just can't admit that her war vote and her inability to apologize for it has been her ultimate undoing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

192. That's a LIE. She voted to send inspectors in to do their job. The PSYCHO kicked them out and

started his war all by himself.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

201. You Are Attemting To Reason With That Which Cannot Be Reasoned With.

See, in order to reason with somebody, they generally have to have the ability to think. I'm fairly certain you're barking up the wrong tree lol.

[Umbram]

235. Aww, how cute!

*clicks a photo*

Look kids! It's two of DU's biggest hacks supporting each other and pretending they care capable of being reasonable.

[revmike]

189. Obama is grassroots but Clinton political elite roots

Just look at how they each raise money. She maxes out a few donors while he takes in little amounts of money from a huge group of supporters. For example, look at what's happening on ebay - she has no one selling things to raise money for her campaign while he has several common, everyday people selling things. Like this pancake: http://cgi.ebay.com/Barack-Obama-Pancake-all-money-donated-to-campaign_W0QQitemZ300200125040QQihZ020QQcategoryZ50790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[in_cog_ni_to]

191. No, no, no, no! Don't you pay attention to the POLLS??? RICH PEOPLE vote for Obama!

That's what the POLLS say, so your stupid post is WRONG.

[Occam Bandage]

197. Except in the last round of primaries, in which Obama won the under-$50,000 crowd.

[high density]

193. I guess my vote is worth less because I spent 4.5 hours participating in a caucus?

Maybe you need to talk to the party about this. Obama supporters didn't dream up and start the caucus idea all on their own. I'd like to see caucuses abolished myself, but this argument about Obama winning because the game is slanted in his favor by caucuses is not backed up by any statistical facts.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

196. Exactly. If Hillary wanted those voters, she could have paid attention to more caucuses,

and brought attention to the problem of caucuses before she started losing.

:shrug:

[intaglio]

199. How economical with the truth you are n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

202. Well, We Are In A Recession.

I'm just doing my part. :P

[liberalhistorian]

203. Sorry, but it's the other way around on here.

Hillary supporters have been unabashedly nasty and smug in almost every Obama thread, and make up names for us seemingly on a daily basis. Let's see, so far we're "Obamababies, Obamabozos, O-bots, Obamamaniacs, Obamessiahs, Obamabamas", etc., etc., and on and on and on. And they're getting increasingly, desperately nasty, especially when she loses a primary.

That is uncalled for and unappreciated. I'm sorry that Hillary actually has some real competition and that she can't just cake-walk to the crown she so richly feels entitled to. She has run a campaign on "inevitability", that she's the inevitable nominee, with a very palpable air of entitlement. And that is a real, major turn-off.

And I'm not fresh off the bus, either. I'm 43 and have been around the block one or two or three or four or five or even six times when it comes to presidential elections, and I've been involved in many, many other campaigns as well. I am perfectly able to make my own conclusions and decision and am not swayed by "shiny distractions" as some other Hillary supporters here call it.

This is still a democracy, last time I checked. Hillary is not owed the nomination or the presidency. Others have the right to run against her and people have the right to vote for whomever they want. What I'm seeing from a lot of the Hillary people is bitterness and sour grapes that the "ugly duckling" cut in on the surefire Homecoming Queen. I've been here for five years and I've rarely seen such bitter, angry, resentful, nasty, cruel, sheer viciousness and vindictiveness against a candidate and his or her supporters as I have seen recently on the part of Hillary supporters against those of us supporting Obama. That's certainly not to say that there isn't some of that on the part of Obama people, either. It's just that it's so much more from the Hillary camp.

It seems to me that your post could very well be turned inward as to Hillary's treatment of Obama and his candidacy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

206. If You Think For A Second That The Hillary Side Has Been Filled With More Hate,

then I think you'd have to be the most objectively blind person I've ever met.

They haven't been a prize either, mind you, but jesus, open your eyes. Holy cow.

[Moochy]

226. The Rashomon effect

It operates between your left and your right eye, OMC. you dont even know what you see.

[BuelahWitch]

331. As a former Edwards supporter with no dog in this hunt

I have to agree with OMC. I've tangled with a few Obama supporters, but haven't had any issues with Clinton's.

[readmoreoften]

207. He's ahead because the media has anointed him.

Period. They are the kingmakers. They are the ones making the decision.

[barb162]

274. They are giving him a free pass so far.

I hope that ends soon and they start treating him as they treat Clinton, McCain and Huckabee.

[D23MIURG23]

208. Hillary can't win so the game is flawed? n/t

[ecstatic]

209. If the process is so flawed (which it is), then the Senators should have done something about it

a long time ago. Losers in such a system have nobody to blame but themselves.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

211. To A Degree I Agree. When I Learned About It, I Was Shocked That They Were Allowed To Exist.

They should totally be done away with prior to the next primary season. We should have more integrity in the election process than caucuses offer. They're just, so, I dunno, amateurish and non-chalant. It's as if the results from them are just totally unimportant or something, so who cares if it's just this 'loose' process. But the results are important. We should demand a better system than that.

[Political Heretic]

219. Did you just discover caucuses this year?

[Blue-Jay]

214. OK.

If you say it, it must be true. I know that because you say stuff with tons of conviction.

That my new motto. "Say it hard! Make it true!"

[anamandujano]

215. Somebody needs to do a talley on the cumulative Repuke crossvers

from all the states.

The DNC should at least take that into account.

[MzShellG]

216. ARE CAUCUSES A NEW PHENOMENON?

Or have they existed for at least the last 30 years? Get over yourself and stop making silly excuses for Hillary's failures and Obama's successes.

[Lisa0825]

259. BINGO!

Camp Hillary had just as much opportunity to work for the caucuses. The reality is that caucuses favor campaigns with the best organization... feet on the ground, hands on the phones. Hillary has NOT had the best organization, therefore she is losing the caucuses.

Blame her own campaign, not the competition.

WEAK argument... but then, there always seems to be an EXTERNAL reason that HC has for losing... it's never her campaign's fault.

edited:typos

[RestoreGore]

218. yes, and he played to Republicans more than he did Democrats

[HeraldSquare212]

220. Yes- it's the process that's to blame, not the candidates.

[chieftain]

222. What kind of mentality enjoys "humbling" fellow Democrats? nt

[mudesi]

223. HEY OPERATIONMINDCRIME, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN WISCONSIN?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Moochy]

225. This OP, coming from the DU's Resident Arch-Blowhard

"humble you all"

Take some of your advice.

"a fading hillary rodham clinton" AP

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Arugula Latte]

248. But He Posts With First-Letter Caps So He Is The Voice Of Authority

:rofl:

[OnionRing Sasquatch]

227. The reality is...

that queensryche still sucks

[Moochy]

228. welcome to DU

:beer:

(hands out honorary pirahna posse membership badge)

[Voltaire99]

230. Worst. Hair. Band. Ever.

Operation Hair Crime is more like it!

[martymar64]

287. They look like 80's porno actresses

Thank god grunge put hair "metal" in it's coffin.

Dethklok!!!

[Voltaire99]

229. Here's a little smack of reality back atcha, crybaby.

You're going to vote for Obama and you're going to like it.

Now dry those tears.

[DesEtoiles]

231. Pfffft.

[Baby Snooks]

232. "Don't count"

What does that say to the voters in those states? That they "don't count" either? And what does that say to the voters in the other states?

In the end the only people who "count" to the Clintons are the Clintons.

[MadHound]

233. Hey, all the candidates knew the rules going into the game

The playing field was even. Hillary played her hand badly,going for the quick KO and failing dismally. Obama took her best shot, had a better ground game and played his game well. Sure, he concentrated on caucus states more than Hillary, whose fault is that?

He is indeed ahead on his own merits. He is a better stump speaker, has a better gameplan, and apparently more people like his positions on the issues.

[IDemo]

234. I was already seeing a therapist because I don't matter. This is gonna set me back.

:rofl:

[Lisa0825]

260. LMAO!

Oh I'm sorry... I shouldn't have laughed at you... here's a :hug: instead. :evilgrin:

[Diane R]

236. Bill, you've got to stop posting at DU.

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

238. That's almost interesting...

...but not as interesting as the suck that is the Reich of Queens...

[ekwhite]

240. Hmmm

Like the flawed caucus process in Wisconsin, where he is ahead by 15 points? Oh right, that's a PRIMARY.

[LadyVT]

244. Because to them, this is a FOOTBALL GAME, not an election.

[CatnHat]

245. I hope

Clinton kicks ass in TX, OH, and PA, then maybe this board would be a hell of a nicer place to visit. The Obama supporters would go cry in their corners for a day or two, and give Clinton supporters a break, already. So Obama wins Wisconsin, it was projected days ago, along with Obama's home state. She did win FL; Clinton's 50% to Obama's mere 33% and MI: Clinton's 55% to 40%. (the reason I am bringing up FL and Michigan is that I am tired of listening to Obama's supporters definition of "landslide.") I am happy with the polls in our state, Clinton is still way up here, and just maybe our state of PA will live up to its name, the Keystone State; and swing the nomination to Hillary. :toast:

[Political Heretic]

257. Gosh, with all due respect, that is wrong on a buch of levels

First of all, it wasn't "projected days ago." Some projected Hillary by +6, Some Obama by +13 some Obama by +3 and some had them in a statistical dead heat. That's just the facts - you can interpret that however you like.

Second, even the Clinton camp, while certainly lowering expectations by foreshadowing a loss, continued to affirm that it would be close, and that she would show how much she was still in this fight. Just prior to the polls closing in Wisconsin, one Clinton strategist said that as long as it wasn't a blowout, it would be a good night for Hillary. When asked what a "blowout" would be, he said "5 points."

With 97% reporting, it is Obama by 17 percentage points. That is a blowout. It is a blowout in an industrial swing state of predominately white voters, where Clinton was supposed to have the advantage.

The fact that you bring Michigan into this, where Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot, is kind of silly. It was Obama's choice not to be on the ballot, after the DNC made a decision that the MI results would not count. No one is debating that - but its laughable to bring that up as an example of how "well" Hillary did against "Uncommitted." :eyes:

A similar reality is true in florida - you have the DNC decreeing that the vote will not count, and then somehow pretend like a vote taken under such conditions would be anything remotely close to accurate. It might have been a bigger Clinton blowout, it might have been a closer race. But telling Florida that the vote is only "symbolic" means a lot of people don't participate - period. And that means the vote itself isn't representative of anything.

I'm happy for you that your candidate is still way up in PA. Good luck there. I, of course, am feeling good about my candidates changes - pulling up dead even in Texas and gaining ground in Ohio. That sets a good course leading into PA. But like I said, good luck!

[CatnHat]

261. So guess it

doesn't bother you that these voters in Michigan and FL don't have a say in the election process? Keep your eye on the prize, while the rights of these voters are being stripped away. Yeah, that's real democratic? Clinton received over 800,000 votes in FL; I wouldn't call that "symbolic". As far as Michigan, it was Obama's choice not to be on ballot, other democratic candidates did choose to be on the ballot; so the break-up of votes in the uncommitted column was no other than Obama. If Hillary don't kick ass, then my bet is that McCain will. Sad.

[Political Heretic]

272. No no! It does bother me!

The whole mess this year bothers me a great deal.

At this point however, I see only two options that even come close to being marginally fair:

Option 1: re-vote in both MI and FL.
Option 2: split the delegates in those states and seat them.

Both of these options suck. Option 1: is still not quite the same as voting when these primaries were supposed to happen, because a lot of the political landscape as changed - probably more votes for Obama.
Option 2: is not quite the same because it isn't likely to be representative - its not likely that an actual normal vote under normal conditions would have resulted in an even split of delegates, so this isn't a great solution either.

The trouble is, either solution is infinitely better than just SEATING the delegates as is which is by far the most unfair option of any.

I call the vote "symbolic" only because everyone voting was told that it didn't "count" - not because I'm trivializing Clinton's votes. Like I said in my previous post, if it had counted, more people would have voted and no one knows what effect that would have had - it could have meant an even bigger margin for Clinton, or not. What we do know is that the results a vote where people are told ahead of time "this vote won't count" are in no way authoritative as many people would choose to do what I would have done and stay home.

[nvme]

262. Being a fl res

She won fl cause she made appearances in Fl to non-campaign. OBAMA Did not. In Michigan She was the only top tier candidate on the ballot. For your Argument i will concede florida. But michigan is no feat. Because edwards and obama were not on the ballot at all. Hillary did not pull her name. so she should have won with at least 75 80 % instead she showed at 55% the other 40% were votes for i believe undecided. so take that 40% and the repubs numbers add them and you will see how she will lose Michigan in the GE. The candidates agreed to forego those states sorry thems the rules. the contests must play out without their imput.

[JVS]

252. "has totally kicked her ass or something"

:rofl:

[theboss]

255. Wisconsin is not a caucus. Neither is Maryland. Neither is Virginia

And he is winning these by 15 to 20 points.

It's the margins.

[Johnny__Motown]

263. NO,he is ahead of her because she did not consider the possibility that she could lose.

She was ready on day one but did not plan for day two or day three, or any other day,


She ran a terrible campaign, She had the money, the political machine and the name everyone knew. She just plain blew it. She is a fatally flawed candidate.

She could have won caucuses if she had devoted the resources to them, she didn't she is inferior.

Besides, who the hell are you to tell states that they can't hold a caucus if that is how they want to assign their delegates. Talk about thinking you are superior. Clue in, your candidate sucks.

[CatnHat]

268. You act

like "your candidate" is winning by a landslide. Clinton has no intention in conceding anything. Get ready for the long haul. That's where it's heading. If Obama was "that" popular, then you might have a argument; but since this race is virtually tied, then it's up to OH, TX, and PA and the other states that follow.

[greengestalt]

264. Obama or Nobody

...Well, except maybe Gore.

Clinton's been in too long and deep supporting Bush policies. And IMHO, she's in to destroy the Democratic party.

History might well call this the "Hot Potato" election. Too much damage has been done to the country by Bush Jr. the Commander-in-Thief... He's just good at extending credit, so the bills come due at a later date.

The country will nosedive into depression without strong progressive measures. The Repubs don't want to win, but they want a canidate who'll promise mild/minimal progressive measures and plenty of pork to the rich elite so they can keep sloghing the trough filled with all our wealth.

Don't believe me? Just look at Hillary's tactics; Pure Bush camp. Doesn't she even have much of the same team from the 00 and 04 elections helping her? And WHERE is she getting all that money from? I doubt Santa Claus.

[CatnHat]

269. "and to much

damage within the democratic party?" I would think you might want to re-phase that. Clinton has done nothing to destroy the democratic party; the democratic party has pretty much done that all on their own. The party is split, that's what I encounter when I talk to people; and just look at the virtual tie; what does that tell you. If you blame Clinton, well you might just as well blame Obama.

[Ichingcarpenter]

270. This crap gets nominated almost as high as this one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3189038


For someone's who egotistical rantings assaults
everyones intelligence or maturity if they don't see
the way he does.

Un =Freaking =believable.

[krkaufman]

271. Ummm.... isn't it because Hillary didn't think the caucus states were important enough...

... for her to deign to campaign there? Obama's campaign strategy seems clearly, truly superior, given the deficits he's overcome in a primary campaign schedule designed to reward and coronate the establishment candidate. It's obvious that Hillary's campaign thought the schedule favored them, as well, having failed to plan for a campaign beyond Super Duper Tuesday.

And then there's that 2002 IWR vote...

[barb162]

273. You're quite right, OMC.

Couldn't agree with you more.

[intaglio]

275. Yeh, Yeh

Oh, Obama appears to have won Wisconsin, funny that as it was not a caucus state; of course that is an "undemocratic" open Primary

OMC, was the Caucus system unfair when Bill Clinton or Al Gore were nominated?

Were open primaries unfair when Bill and Al won the nomination?

Why cannot Hillary's failure be down to Hillary's mistakes?

Why cannot the organisation Hillary "leads" not be at fault?

When does Hillary start to take responsibility for her losses?

[saltpoint]

276. She competed in the same "flawed" system. And this evening in

Wisconsin, she got whomped.

[grantcart]

277. and thumped in Hawaii

[saltpoint]

278. Yes. So it seems.

There's a proverb that says the girl who can't dance says the band can't play.

[gate of the sun]

279. i agree with you theory

but when it comes to elections it's like football season......I don't want to vote for Hilary...and I'm not swelling with desire to vote for Obama. I have no desire to get caught in the struggle between these two or anyone on Du....I'm very disappointed in this election. period. I was hoping for so much more........The TV is nauseating and all the people talking and churning and burning and I should say turning all of this..lnto a charade of democracy or should I dare say how a republic works because people we are not a democracy...oh weep but we're not. I'm sorry for us all and Hope for the best. For all of us not just here but all over the planet. We need that the best and unfortunately that's not going to happen.

[JustinL]

280. speaking of reality

Contested primary vote totals from CNN:

   Obama - 9,766,969 (up by 700,526)
   Clinton - 9,066,713

Before Wisconsin:

   Obama - 9,121,415 (up by 507,292)
   Clinton - 8,614,123

link

[saltpoint]

281. The Columbus DISPATCH, carrying the AP's story on Wisconsin's outcome

in this morning's edition reads:

_ _ _ _

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Barack Obama won the Wisconsin primary tonight, his ninth straight triumph over a fading Hillary Rodham Clinton in their epic struggle for the Democratic presidential nomination.
_ _ _ _

Ohio's one of four states up next on the primary calendar.

[dschmott]

282. Angry bullshit aside, its over and Obama deserves to be where he is

My note to the author is that reality and truth depend greatly on where you sit or stand in you own life. It is disappointing to see posts like this make it to the "Greatest Posts" section. I am going to vote for Obama because he is the most capable leader at a time when America can not risk/afford the similar but mediocre results that a Hillary or McCain Presidency will offer. Neither of them will be able to unite their own party much less the country and world. I don't know for certain that Obama is of JFK/RFK/MLK caliber leadership - but there is a lot of people seem to think he may be. I think we are in exciting times.

[cornermouse]

283. Too many of the Obama supporters have been

extremely aggressive and spiteful. They've gone way beyond supporting their candidate and are now engaged on repulsing and driving off others.

What worries me about Obama is the way he makes statements as if they are absolute and without question. IMO, he's an odd combination between Reagan's speeches and Bush's "we make our own reality". Also, I wonder at the number of people who are taking what he says at face value without looking to see if there's any substance behind it. I wonder if the nation can continue to survive with such a high level of gullibility in the public.

[TheDonkey]

284. bullshit. buy some kleenex for those watery eyes

Do not blame caucuses for Obama thumping Hillary all over the country. Caucuses, primaries, rural states, urban states.... Obama is getting them.

Why try to cry a river?

[BeyondGeography]

286. Kicking for a big smack of reality to the falsely superior

[Name removed]

291. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[workinclasszero]

292. Reality = 10 blowout victories in a row!

Somebody needs to get a clue.:eyes:

[pjt7]

300. Clinton supporters need to stop with excuses

& admit that the Obama is winning the Democratic nomination.

He is also the best choice to win it all, for the D's.

Take a few weeks off & de-compress & then pick one or two key issues & make sure Obama follows thru on them.

[libbygurl]

295. Not to mention the immense help provided by the fawning media,

...who might be afraid of being called racists if they say anything substantially negative about him and his campaign.

[libbygurl]

296. K & R. what the hell.

[Jackpine Radical]

298. Aw, Geez, I musta wandered into GD-P again.

That sucks.

[Marrah_G]

299. The taller the Pedastal the harder the fall.

He may well be the Nominee and if he is I fear that some folks are in for a rude awakening.

Sort of like after the 2006 elections.

Regardless, the race is not over. There are people left who deserve to have their say.

GD-P has become a cesspool of RW attacking points, filled with nasty posters spreading their disease to many longtime DUers.

[Maribelle]

301. Two other reasons as well.

#1 Had the DNC not fractured democrats in Michigan and Florida, Hillary would have held a commanding lead from the beginning that would have totally shattered all this "momentum" republican-MSM sings hourly for Obama. And her lead could have been so great that Obama might have dropped out long ago.

#2 The incredible 'Independent' vote in the open primary states is a staged ploy by Republicans to taint and tip the Democratic election to Obama, who is actually courting these, hoping non-democrats are the ones that select the democratic vote. In exit poll after exit poll Hillary strongly pulls Democrats. Witness the pathetic New Hampshire-eve rants by MSM so negative against Hillary, when on election day the fraudulent independents had to abandon Obama to vote for McCain because Romney was closing in on him.

[From The Left]

305. Hillary's Campaign Is Done

After winning 10 straight, Obama has emerged as the front runner.

Worse still for Hillary, today's ZOGBY's poll shows Obama is the national leader 52% to Hillary's 38%.

It's over for Hillary and sooner she accepts reality and steps aside, the sooner Obama can take on McCain and defeat him in November.

[DogPoundPup]

306. "Her entire campaign has been flawed."

Obama Crushes Clinton in Wisconsin: Anatomy of Hillary’s Defeat
http://www.progressive.org/node/6098

:hi:
Discuss

[StrongBad]

309. That was a great article

Thanks for the link, I think it succinctly describes the current situation as it relates to Hillary...

[saltpoint]

310. Yes. The Rothschild piece is persuasive because it is not a shot from

afar.

THE PROGRESSIVE's office is in downtown Madison. This is a bird's eye view of the primary results.

[workinclasszero]

322. Nice article

Thanks for the link.

[Stuckinthebush]

308. You know, with an attitude like that

It's going to be hard for you to vote for Obama in November.

You may want to take a step back and rest from the political nastiness for a while.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

316. Pretty Ignorant Conclusion. I Love Obama And I'll Be Excited As Hell To Vote For Him.

I think he's a great candidate and I'm proud of both of our dems in this race. The OP isn't about disliking him or even putting him down. What the point of the OP is, is that the momentum he has is a bit deceiving, and the rhetoric by some as if he's so superior to Hillary is just manufactured in their own minds. In reality, they are VERY CLOSE as to the support they each have and as to their capability to lead. The whole point of the OP is that he's not as nearly deserving of the height of the pedestal some ignoramuses here are putting him on. That doesn't mean I don't like him or think he's great, cause I do. It just means that some of his supporters need to get a grip, because their perception of his superiority is all sorts of disconnected with the reality of the situation. That's all this was about.

[Stuckinthebush]

330. Not ignorant at all. Your anger is overflowing in your statements

Making me question your ability to support the eventual nominee (be it Obama).

Personally, I like them both. I see a dangerous upscaling of anger from supporters of both candidates that will make it increasingly impossible for them to support the other person in a general election. This isn't healthy.

THe fact that you use the word "ignoramus" is telling. Most avid supporters of a candidate put that candidate on a pedestal. This isn't just a phenomenon within the Obama camp. Of course they think he is superior to Clinton. Clinton supporters think she is superior to Obama. That's the way it works.

The momentum he has is not deceiving, it is real. He is on a roll with 10 primaries under his belt. This makes him a superior candidate AT THIS TIME. As we know, the tables turn in politics.

Is he superior in his ability to lead? Perhaps. He seems to generate more excitement per the primary results SO FAR. Again, this could change.

Yes, the delegate count is very close to even but the momentum is swinging to Obama. This is a reality that we can't ignore. At this time Clinton does not have this momentum and seems desperate. That is a logical reaction to underdog status. We will see what happens in the next couple of weeks. Perhaps Clinton will regain the momentum and it will be Obama supporters saying that Clinton supporters are ignoramuses for thinking she is superior.

Let's tone down the rhetoric is all I'm saying.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

345. "Let's tone down the rhetoric"

That's all the OP was in essence saying.

And there was no anger in it whatsoever, since as it relates to Obama there is no anger in me towards him. Work on your perception.

Furthermore, the OP wasn't just about his supporters thinking him superior, since I agree with you that any candidate's supporters would generally agree their candidate is the better. Who the OP was towards, were those who ARE in fact being ignorant and a bit naive in their wayyyyyyyy overly inflated rhetoric towards Obama, as if he's the best thing since sliced bread or as if he's DOMINATED Hillary in some way on his own merits. There are many factors for his popularity, many of which are not due to him on his merits at all, but I will digress on that one. But much of his snowball effect started with his many victories in caucuses, which by their very nature are amazingly flawed, unrepresentative, disenfranchising, and not really the voice of the people. If those states had been primary states, we don't know how he might've fared and Hillary may very well have taken many of them. Had that occurred, he likely wouldn't have built the amount of momentum he currently has nor may the media have helped facilitate that rockstar image to the degrees they have. That's what applies to his current run as well. Of course he's starting to run away with it a little, since the media has catapulted his campaign after his earlier on victories. Once a candidate has the buzz and momentum that he had gained from that, generally you will see future contests start totally falling their way just due to a snowball/bandwagon effect. But that effect may not have ever occurred, his current string of victories may well not have ever occurred, if he hadn't reaped the benefit of all of those caucus states.

And no, that's not bitterness or anger. No, that's not my clouded perception of being a hillary supporter or something. Fact is, I'm still on the fence about which candidate I actually want to rally behind, and I'm not sure at this point I'll end up choosing. I think I'll just be excited for whichever one wins the nom, and just see back and enjoy the rest of the competitive primary season. So no, what's written above is not due to a clouded perception, but instead is the product of an objective mind that most here can no longer incorporate based on their almost irrational loyalties to their candidate. What I wrote is absolutely objective and rational, and I stand behind all of it. Some Obama supporters want to cast out this image as if he's one of the most amazing politicians ever or something. But he isn't. He's a good candidate that's had a good career, but has reaped the rewards of a flawed caucus system and hyped up media that catapulted him to practical icon status. In reality, he is far closer to Hillary and far less superior to her then his rabid supporters are open minded enough to realize. That's what the OP was about, to bring them back to reality a bit. I should've known they wouldn't 'get it' though, but their inability to reason or comprehend does not make the OP any less accurate.

[bushisdirt]

311. Get serious. He's ahead is because the PEOPLE want him

and not that brassy-toned megalomaniac.

[Lerkfish]

312. a lesson on humility from a clinton supporter is beyond ironic.

I'm just sayin.

[Name removed]

314. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

317. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DWilliamsamh]

321. Oh... Very good..

I noticed you make no attempt whatsoever to answer what I and others here have said regarding the fact that both candidates new the landscape and chose there strategy accordingly. On has won ten in a row because of their strategy and one has lost.

And as another poster said - you opinion is not fact. If you can actually explain why the Caucuses (or primary system) is more advantageous to Mr. Obama, I am perfectly willing to listen. But so far you haven't done that you have just insisted that you opinion is fact.

That sounds very much like a juvenile argument to me. The OP was a temper tantrum hence my admonition to stop crying.

[CreekDog]

318. He is a superior candidate running a superior campaign

and winning a superior number of delegates and votes.

he is not God, but he is superior in these aspects when compared with Hillary Clinton, with the voters as judge and the superiority of the his campaign disputed by nearly nobody thus far.

[Mark D.]

319. With All Due Respect

"flawed caucus process or something". Grabbing at anything are we? I was a Kucinich supporter turned Edwards supporter turned Obama supporter who feels Clinton wouldn't be that much worse, but Obama is able to motivate a nation of couch-potatoes to want change finally, so there is a benefit to what he offers, and having the most progressive voting record in the Senate also helped in my judgment. We are not just rooting for a rock star here people. For many it's an informed decision we've made regarding this.

Most of his wins were in states with primaries, not caucuses. He goes into a state with a solid lead in multiple polls, with a majority of politicians in that state endorsing him, and he (surprise!) wins! NO! There must be something wrong. Please, stop. Face the fact that he's winning. He's raised more money from private small donors than any candidate in history, including Dean. He gets more military support for his bid than Clinton does, and yes, he's comfortably ahead of worst-nightmare McCain, while Clinton is dreadfully behind him in match-up polls. I can hear it now, 'too early for that'. Dismiss he's the best to face the GOP. It won't change anything.

There is impending danger. His name is John McCain. He must be stopped. I worry the Clinton folks do not accept the will of the people, push for convention mayhem, and worst, GET THE NOMINATION over it. Defying the will of the majority of Democratic voters. What happens? The Obama supporters then refuse to vote for her or anyone, the anti-Clinton folks in the right wing who aren't crazy about crazy John McCain who would vote for Obama will pick McCain as the lesser of two evils for simply not being Clinton.

If Obama wins handily in Ohio/Texas, Clinton would be best to at least tame the attacks. I mean, stay in the race if you want, but don't get to the point you're fueling the GOP with stuff THEY can 'plagiarize' from you to attack Obama with. As Clinton has said herself often, and I hope she remembers this, ANY Democrat 'on this stage' offers better change than the GOP choices. Great. Let's not sink the entire Democratic ship because you wanna be captain and won't accept someone else is preferred by those on board.

[Elspeth]

324. He has also benefitted from some high powered endorsements

Not a bad thing, but he has had help. Having the only remaining child of JFK back you is a godsend.

[madwivoter]

328. My take on your reality

My first post, please bear with me. Congrats on getting me to register after reading the posts for 3+ years.

First off, I don't know if I would agree that all Obama supporters come off as if he's superior to Hillary. I do not have time to read all posts that you may be referring to, but being an Obama supporter myself I think that there needs to be a little room for civility between Hillary and Obama supporters.

I'm sure this has been written over and over on this forum, but what are we all going to do once there's a nominee? If you were a Hillary supporter and Obama is the nominee are you going to vote for McCain? That's what one would think by reading through a lot of these posts. If you are an Obama supporter and Hillary is the nominee, are you going to vote for Ron Paul?

I think we all need to take a step back, breathe, and realize that we are on the same side. Obama has been on a winning streak. Hillary is not out of it. I do not think that Obama is "superior" to Hillary, but I like his ideas so he is the person I voted for yesterday. Come November, if Hillary Clinton's name is on the ballot, I will vote for her with pride.

I do agree with you in that the process is completely flawed.

But, my question to you is: would you consider the process this flawed if Hillary won in the last 10 states?

[Arkana]

334. All I got out of that was:

"WAAAAHHHHH my candidate isn't winning caucus states so they must be unfair and undemocratic!"

That about right?

Give me a fucking break. Hillary's losing caucus states because she utterly fails to get people energized and Obama's ground game and level of organization dwarfs hers.

[LSK]

341. South Carolina

[IronLionZion]

342. Caucusing for Obama was one of the coolest political activities I've done

it was awesome to interact with so many people who were passionate about the candidates. I thought it was much more interesting than a primary. But the fact that Obama has thrashed Clinton in many primaries is an inconvenient truth for people like you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

346. Selecting Our Candidate Isn't About Being Able To Do Cool Things.

It's about the public voting for the candidate they want the most. Caucuses are not conducive of that sort of 'voice of the people' concept, and they are a farce.

[cd3dem]

344. When the Magic Fades - good read NY Times

I live in a caucus state and our seniors were disenfranchised and I heard of voter fraud from Caucus Chairs...

I just hope people wake up before it is too late.. at this time, we must contend with republicans voting for Obama because McCain is their guy!

When the Magic Fades - good read NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/opinion/19brooks.html?ex=1204088400&en=039eede55ac29785&ei=5070&emc=eta1

[TheWraith]

348. That's right, blame the caucuses. And the other states where he won don't count, right?

It's just pathetic the ridiculous lengths that Clinton supporters will go to to claim that the election is somehow biased against them.

How about this: Clinton lost because she RAN A BAD CAMPAIGN. She ran a bad campaign, refused to acknowledge any of the mistakes she made along the way, and just kept marching on with the same loser tactics. Odd, isn't it, that just now the caucuses suddenly became disenfranchising to Clinton voters and Clinton voters only, when every other candidate in recent history hasn't had a problem with them.

And the fact that Clinton supporters are unable to acknowledge that their candidate's losses stem from bad campaigning is just sad.