She voted for war, so show her the door

[subsuelo]

Hillary, exit stage left, thanks see ya bye bye

[BuyingThyme]

1. kcik

[subsuelo]

3. hey you mispelled kick

lol

[jgraz]

28. no, you misspelled kcik

And "misspelled". :P

[GarbagemanLB]

48. I thought it was spelled ickk

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

54. kikd & rekomindad

[subsuelo]

56. lol thakns

[JVS]

2. right on!

[subsuelo]

10. :toast:

:toast:

[JVS]

11. to victory!

:toast:

[subsuelo]

57. to a no pro-war president!

let's hope!

[fascisthunter]

4. The Repercussions for Voting for the War is a Mandate

for bringing the troops home... ASAP!

[BringBigDogBack]

5. I like that.

Would make a great sig line.

thx, k bai

[TheUniverse]

6. thats the reason she didnt get my vote.

We didnt need a John Kerry "flip flop" general election again. Hell, I dont even think she ever apologized for her vote.

[HeraldSquare212]

7. Amen.

[pocoloco]

8. I'm afraid she's gonna wait for the doorknob!

[L0oniX]

103. And when it hits her it will get stuck in her ass.

[Windy]

9. I really do believe its about the war overall...

I think that is how history will record this election cycle.

[faithfulcitizen]

yep.

[libertee]

12. and the fella doesn't REALLY know what he would have done..so

all the pontificating about "I didn't vote for the war" is full of empty air!

[MadHound]

17. For many of us it isn't about whether or not he would have voted for the war

It is about the fact that Hillary did vote for the war, and to fund the war, and to rattle the saber at Iran. It is about holding accountable those who led us into an illegal, immoral war that has killed hundreds of thousands of innocents and wasted billions of dollars and dragged this country through the mud. That is what democracy and elections are about, holding our elected representatives responsible for their actions. We are now holding Hillary responsible for hers. Perhaps next time she will make the right decision. Maybe this will also serve as an object lesson for others in the future.

What, you don't believe in holding our representatives accountable for their actions?

[subsuelo]

20. well said (n/t)

[Critters2]

29. He voted to fund the war, too. nt

[MadHound]

36. Yes, yes he did.

Do I like it, no. However I will take that over somebody who actually voted to take us to war, despite the fact that her constituents were telling her to vote no in overwhelming numbers and despite the fact that the public didn't want to do anything until the inspectors finished. Is Obama perfect in this regard, no, no candidate this side of Kucinich is perfect on this issue. But since we don't have Kucinich, one has to compromise, so I will vote for Obama, because a warmonger such as Hillary has to be held accountable for her actions.

[VotesForWomen]

76. o's no better than hill, so what's your point? write in kucinich, why don't you? nt

[MadHound]

99. Did he vote for the IWR? Did he vote for Kyle/Lieberman? No, he didn't

It is about accountability. Many many people, both here and in the real world, vowed to hold accountable all of those who enable Bushco's illegal, immoral war. That is exactly what we're doing. Perhaps Hillary will learn her lesson this time. But whether she does or not isn't the point. The point is that she is being held accountable for her actions. A million dead cannot and will not settle for less.

[Webster Green]

41. Sure, OK!

:rofl:

[LadyVT]

13. Ignorance: Obama's words on this

"So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test."

"Not only was the idea of an invasion increasingly popular, but on the merits I didn't consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried." <"Audacity of Hope," 2006, p. 294>

[DemGa]

14. It's just amazing how many different things Obama-sham

has to say about the war vote. This is one to bookmark.

[557188]

59. Obama supports the war

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12687

The cult members continue to ignore reality. Pathetic and uninformed.

[vireo]

82. He's full of hot air, but they just don't care!

:P

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. One problem.

As it turned out, Clinton didn't know anything that the rest of us didn't know.

So your point is moot.

[rosetta627]

15. That's the bottom line

And the reason I have trouble being gracious to her.
It's unforgivable.
Bloody... unforgivable.

[Carolina]

33. plus she didn't change her position

on the war until public opinion was contrary to hers and would impact her POTUS bid. When she did finally speak out, she said the war had been poorly managed, not that it was wrong from the start.

Iraq was never an imminent threat to the US and never attacked the US! Her calculating, politically motivated vote authorizing use of force against the innocents of that nation is now her Achilles heel and rightfully so.

[subsuelo]

49. exactly

[dailykoff]

16. thanks hilly, don't call us, we'll call you.

Not. :hi:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. My Sincerest Congratulations to you on Obama's Wisconsin's win today

from this Hillary supporter

[subsuelo]

19. I neither deserve nor expect congratulations

Congratulations should go to the people that are voting against someone who took us to war against a country that had nothing to do with Sept 11th, that never once threatened us, that never killed any of our citizens, whose sole crime was being in possession of prized natural resources.

But thank you for expressing the sentiment

[Carolina]

21. great line, potential bumper sticker

and so true,

October 2002 did it for me.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

22. "If it doesn't fit you must acquit!"

Is this the same crowd? Sure sounds like it.

[Arugula Latte]

23. A longer poem that just came to me:

Hillary thought "yes on IWR" was a must
Pretending in Bush to put her trust
All so calculated, so you see
To preserve her viability
The loyal base? Stabbed in the back
The bombs rained down upon Iraq
We watched children, mothers, fathers die
And for what? The big neocon lie.
To nomination she thought she'd skate --
But remorse for war is five years too late
Her candidacy just isn't gelling
And we're not buying what she's selling
Back to the Senate with her now
Time for her to take a bow.

[subsuelo]

27. hey that's really good

seriously, very nice!

:yourock:

[Arugula Latte]

38. Aw, thanks

:hi:

[pocoloco]

31. What remorse???

Just checking.

[subsuelo]

34. good point

if she would even express remorse she might win over some voters. But noooo thats just too painful I guess.

[Carolina]

42. remorse still wouldn't do it for me

too little, too late.

There are no do-overs in war, no reincarnation of the dead, no magical restoration of the society (its archives, museums, infrastructure)...

A tremendous amount of death and destruction for political viability. Tragic.

[Arugula Latte]

37. Remorse ... that her vote is coming back to bite her in the ass.

[Carolina]

40. Excellent poem

says it all so well

The war is precisely why I could never support Hillary

[faithfulcitizen]

43. oh, that's really good....pretty much sums up my feelings.

you should start your own thread with this...maybe tomorrow. ;)

[Arugula Latte]

44. Thanks.

Don't want to poke the hornet's nest too vigorously right now. :)

[Moochy]

24. IWR matters

:kick:

Brought to you by the Clairvoyant Democrats of America

[Just-plain-Kathy]

25. "She voted for war, so show her the door"...That should be our chant!

Hillary should not be our president!!

[adabfree]

26. I think its more than that....

the war is part of it..but people have Clinton fatigue...too

[subsuelo]

30. For me, personally, no there is not much more to it

Had Hillary voted against IWR I'd likely be an avid supporter right now.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

35. Do you know who voted AGAINST the invasion? I can't remember...

[Carolina]

45. Her ya go, Dearie

The courageous members of Congress, mostly Democrats, who stood up to Bush, and with principle and honor voted NO on IWR:

United States Senate
Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

United States House of Representatives

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu

[Cha]

98. Thank you, Carolina, and thanks to bvar, too..

I'd been looking for that list and couldn't seem to come up with it the other week..

I see where Neil Abercrombie(HI) voted against it and endorsed Obama a week or two ago. Both, Hawaiian Senators voted against the IWR but Inouye flew back to Hawaii yesterday to vote for hilary in Obama's landslide. I heard Akaka was still on the fence Tues morning so we'll see if he's going to endorse anyone anytime soon. B-)

[Carolina]

46. PS, I must thank bvar22 for this list

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4632338

I bookmarked it for that very list.

[dailykoff]

32. she fucked up Iraq, we're paying her back

now if only we could get back all the money she stole...

[Arugula Latte]

39. IWR? Go warm up the car.

Okay, that one isn't so hot. :D

[subsuelo]

51. yeah not so hot lol

it's the thought that counts though :D

[WHAT]

47. HRC win = MIC win?...

that's my reason

[Moh96]

50. cool I like it

[LWolf]

52. He funded it, so let's show him the door, too. nt

[subsuelo]

53. funding is entirely different though

He wouldn't have had to be asked to fund if we weren't there in the first place, thanks to Bush, Hillary and the rest of the pro-war team

[PerpetuallyDazed]

58. However...

If Obama didn't believe in it, why did he (and she) continue funding it through 2006? :shrug:

Again, the two aren't that much different in my mind.

[subsuelo]

60. I don't agree with it and am not going to try and explain it away

All I'm saying is, for me, it's much worse to have voted for it in the first place (while he was speaking out against it)

[PerpetuallyDazed]

63. Please, I'm trying to understand this.

According to you, Obama's rhetoric fails to live up to his actions and yet he has earned your trust over Clinton's...?

Honestly, I don't think either of them deserve a pass. Why everyone is so defensive over "their" candidate is a mystery to me... both choices clearly suck.

[GarbagemanLB]

65. One had the ability to stop the action BEFORE is started. The other had to deal with the complicated

mess left in the wake. There is no comparison. Hillary voted against the beliefs of millions of people and plenty of congressman because her judgement allowed her to either trust Bush or vote with him due to political expediency. Either way, it is despicable and does not compare to Obama's situation. There are speeches on tape of him opposing this war from the start.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

70. Maybe...

...but I doubt she "trusted" Bush. That seems highly unlikely. Unless I'm misinformed, would it have mattered if Clinton had voted against the resolution? I didn't think she was the deciding vote? If Clinton initially voted for political reasons, Obama did the same when he continued to vote for funding. Either way, wasn't the IWR and subsequent funding going to be passed regardless of their respective votes?

[subsuelo]

71. Would it have mattered? Absolutely so

I see no reason why I would not currently favor Clinton over Obama had she voted against IWR.

[subsuelo]

69. Getting defensive?

I clearly stated that I don't agree with it and am not going to explain it away. How is that being "so defensive"?

[VotesForWomen]

77. many in congress refuse to fund. why not o? by your logic IWR doesn't matter because if bush hadn't

chosen to use it to go to war there never would have been a war that obama "had" to fund. so it's really all bush's fault.

[subsuelo]

94. "by your logic IWR doesn't matter"

What?

Please re-read the title of my OP. "She voted for the war, now show her the door."

How can that possibly be spun into "IWR doesn't matter".

Please, take a step back, breathe a little or something. This makes no sense.

[LWolf]

102. I don't see it that way.

I see the funding piece as walking the talk. If you are really "against" the war, you don't vote to fund it. It cannot continue without funds.

It's easy to give a speech saying he is against the war when you don't have to act on it. What he does when he's in the position to take a stand matters more to me than words that aren't backed by action.

Frankly, that was the first thing Obama did to lose my respect: campaigning on talk he wouldn't walk.

[BeyondGeography]

55. Hopefully, that will be one of the long-term lessons here

[UALRBSofL]

62. The thing about it is

After reading this thread I'm sure no one voted for Kerry. Because, if you did, your all hypocrites for flaming Hillary.

[Skip Intro]

61. Uh, Obama's talking about putting our troops on the "right" battlefields of Pakistan and Afghanistan

I think they call that war. Show him the door too?

[Occam Bandage]

64. I am, and was, wholly and completely in favor of Afghanistan.

We owe those people the infrastructure and the future we promised them. And we could deliver it if we actually bothered to. Iraq is a clusterfuck occupation without hope of victory. Afghanistan is a rebuilding project we abandoned.

[Skip Intro]

80. And Pakistan - is that another "right battlefeild" for our troops?

'cuz you kinda skipped that one...

[Occam Bandage]

83. In Waziristan? It depends on the situation. On one hand it risks

destabilizing the government during a time of awkward transition; on the other hand, if we have solid evidence of al-Qaeda presence and if the Pakistani government refuses to assist--or even to allow us entry--then we start considering the options. Pakistan is a very complex, very dangerous country, and I wouldn't rule any action in or out. It would depend on who was in power, who was vying for power, what our target was, and what the intended operation would be.

[Skip Intro]

88. Ok, just asking because Obama has stated more than once, and in regards to our troops, that Pakistan

is a "right battlefield."

Some could take that as being a little hawkish. If I were in the military, I'd really be wondering what he has in mind when he says such things.

[Occam Bandage]

93. In certain areas, it is. The right battlefield is most of Afghanistan,

and a small sliver of Pakistan along the border, where there is no effective governmental control. If the Pakistani government declares that it no intention of enforcing its laws along the border with Afghanistan, I could see several scenarios in which the United States launches cross-border incursions targeting al-Qaeda/Taliban presence. The preferred method, of course, would be if Pakistan were to launch a joint venture with us.

He was very specific about what he had in mind. What's there to wonder?

[GarbagemanLB]

67. That's absolutely ridiculous. Afghanistan was a righteous war against a government supporting Al Qae

da. The same cannot be said of Iraq. Shame on you.

[subsuelo]

72. To be honest

All we ever cared about in Afghanistan was getting our gas pipeline in there.

We got it thanks to Hamid Karzai, the former UNOCAL advisor.

truthout: Afghanistan: Bush, Unocal get their pipeline

[Skip Intro]

78. thank you.

[Occam Bandage]

84. You believe we shouldn't have gone into Afghanistan?

[Skip Intro]

85. I think there were ulterior motives, as indicated above.

[Occam Bandage]

95. But do you believe it is not the right battlefield? And do you believe we shouldn't

have invaded?

[Skip Intro]

81. Pakistan? Did you mean to skp that one in your rush to "shame" me?

Please, thoughts on Obama's stated goals to pull troops from Iraq and place them on the right battlefield of Pakistan?

[subsuelo]

86. He's better than Hillary on these issues

and that is all there is to it. Not saying I support his policies or everything he's said. But he's better than Hillary. And that is what this is about isn't it - choosing the better candidate?

[GarbagemanLB]

87. Evidence of Obama's intentions? Or was that a response to a specific hypothetical situation? nt

[UALRBSofL]

101. Skip Intro You and I know Obama said he would invade NW Pakistan

to find Osama Bin Lauden. We both also know this is NOT a progressive action. I don't really think the Obama supporters really know the issues or everything Obama has said in the past because they had no clue he even talked about Pakistan. Interesting.

[Zavulon]

68. I think your slogan is great. Copyright it, or I will borrow it without permission. Daily. (NT)

[PurityOfEssence]

73. Ya sound like a minister, and that's just sinister

The hyped-up chanting doggerel sounds cute to the zealots, but it reeks of religious fervor and turns off many. Can't think why they call this a cult...

[Occam Bandage]

96. If you're feeling sinister, go off and see your minister

He'll try in vain to take away the pain of being a hopeless unbeliever
la la la la la la la.

[indepat]

74. All standing for re-election and who voted for war should exit stage left, and forever leave the

public service and scene. :patriot:

[VotesForWomen]

75. so why did dems pick kery in 2004? are they fickle, weak, losers, or what. i voted nader in 2004

because of IWR, and the time to make a stand on it was 2002 and 2004, not in 2008 when we've basically been pro-war from the beginning. i don't think o's alleged anti-war position is going to help him in the GE.

[subsuelo]

79. all good points

Here is my take: We have an opportunity to vote for someone who at least did not vote for the IWR. That's just all there is to it. I've been a Kucinich supporter, but he's not in it now and there's no looking back. Obama is in it, and he may very well win this thing. That fact is so much better than being forced to select a pro-war candidate again.

[GarbagemanLB]

89. Kerry's pro-war vote just helped the 'flip-flop' rhetoric and allowed the GOP to muddy the waters. A

clear distinction between Obama and McCain on the war will only help Obama.

[Dogmudgeon]

90. Selective outrage?

Obama has supported nearly every pro-war measure introduced into the Senate, and has consistently voted to fund the war.

I have to conclude that you don't care at all about the war. It's no more than an issue you use to bash Hillary. Well, that's politics. It's a rough game. But don't try to sell us on the idea that your collective conscience is immaculate. At least own up to your double-standard. Hypocrisy isn't a virtue, and "nyah-nyah" isn't persuasive to anyone over the age of 14.

--p!

[subsuelo]

92. You have to conclude that I don't care about the war?

That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Re-read the title of the post. "She voted for the war, now show her the door"

Those really sound like words from someone that doesn't care about the war?

I have to conclude that you can't be serious.

[Dogmudgeon]

105. I guess subtlety isn't your strong suit

This isn't "all about subsuelo". I'm sorry you took offense, but I won't apologize for using subtlety towards a campaign that prides itself on rhetorical sophistication. My post was about the hypocrisy of a political campaign using a single vote as a political battering ram (which isn't hypocrisy), and then hiding behind phony, politically-timely outrage to cover its candidate's own record (which IS hypocrisy).

It's easy to tell that the outrage is either phony, or at least the product of ignorance (the non-derogatory use of the word, "not knowing"). Barack Obama has voted in favor of the war and war appropriations nearly every time they have come up for a vote. I say "nearly every time" because I may have overlooked a vote or two he cast against the war. His war record is nearly identical to HRC's, differing mainly because HRC began her Senate career in 2001, and BHO began his in 2005.

The difference is one vote BHO did not have to make, and one speech he did make and now uses as an enormous fig leaf. Well-played, sir. And it IS a significant difference -- but it does not absolve BHO for his own pro-war actions. So the outrage over the Sin of Sister Hillary is, in the words of Team Obama, pathetic. (Or is this week's mot juste "desperate"?)

You're field-testing a slogan that ignores these facts. That's politics. I understand that politics is a rough game, and Team Obama plays it exceptionally well. But campaigners should, ideally, not deceive themselves as well as their intended audiences.

Then, too, Team Obama likes to feign outrage over the very idea that they are acting politically at all. Excellent feint! No, there is no sarcasm in that -- I admire the effort and execution. What I DON'T admire is the moral superiority act. (In case you were wondering, I have never admired it when the Clintons pull(ed) it, either.)

But by all means keep hammering Hillary for the IWR vote. Eventually, people will start to question Obama's record of support for the war and call him to account for it. If you're lucky, you will have destroyed Hillary Clinton first.

--p!

[still_one]

91. and she also voted against banning cluster bombing in civilian areas

Grouped By Vote Position
YEAs ---30

Note: not one (R) voted for the ban.

Democrats who voted for BANNING CLUSTER BOMS IN CIVILIAN AREAS:


Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)


http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232#position

[subsuelo]

100. good for both of them!

:thumbsup:

[FiveGoodMen]

97. I think it's stage right.

[AtomicKitten]

104. Amen.