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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:14 PM
Original message
Michigan and Florida
Who makes the ultimate decision on whether delegates from these two states will be seated?

Also, I don't believe that the ends justifies the means. I believe in honor and principles and morality. If the DNC ruled ahead of time that these delegates would not be seated, and if some candidates took their names off the ballot, then how in the world can anyone justify counting these delegates?



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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. They can't.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. The DNC Credentials Committee, I believe
:)
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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Answer to your second question: Respect for democratic principles
justifies counting the votes especially in Florida. As for Michigan, I think it was well understood that a vote for the uncommitted slate was a vote against Hillary and probably for Obama. The Democratic Party has really put itself in a bind with its anti-democratic rules both with respect to these two states and the superdelegates. I think it's time for a national primary.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Please understand
I think the delegates should have been counted all along to respect the voters. The DNC never should have said the delegates would not be seated. But once the DNC ruled that they would not count, there is no way to go back and undo the problem. How many people stayed home knowing their votes were meaningless? How can one lose delegates in a state where your name was not even on the ballot?

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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You asked the question, with the implication that there was no acceptable "moral"
justification for seating the Michigan and Florida delegates. There clearly is another side to the "moral" issue. Now, in fact, the decision is going to be made on purely political grounds. Conventions ultimately judge which delegations will be seated. If Obama or Clinton have absolute majorities of the uncontested delegates, they will make decision based on whether it will benefit their respective candidacies. If a neutral group of Edwards and truly uncommitted delegates hold the balance of power, then it could get more complicated, but morality will only enter into the decision as a consequence of how arguing about it will impact who will get power.
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macracan Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. About Florida and Michigan
The trouble with reversing the decision now and seating these two delegations is that they are not really valid. Yeah, a lot of people came out and voted. Granted. But even a lot more would have voted if they thought the vote was going to be meaningful. So while not seating the delegations frustrates those that voted, seating them infuriates those that didn't vote on account that it was ruled to be meaningless.

I tend to have respect for rules that are agreed upon by the involved parties (that's what confers those rules the democratic adjective). Changing the rules post facto kinda stinks, just like retroactive immunity for telecoms.
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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Maybe we could have the Supreme Court decide.
They have such a great record on protecting democracy in Florida. I'm sure they can find a rule. Welcome to DU.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. They already did decide.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. But people didn't go because there were no delegates at stake, in FL proposals were on the ballot
and that helped bolster turn out (unlike MI, all I voted on was one local school board proposal and Uncommitted)
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. MY "uncommitted" vote wasn't for Obama
it was for Edwards. You had to squint real hard to see the different flavors of "uncommitted".
:rofl:

Anyway, I think the best outcome would be for DNC to stick to their guns, not count MI. I'd go one better and not seat the MI super-d's. They're probably the ones that got us into this fine mess in the first place.

National primary? No, I like this better, with smaller states up front so that a relative unknown has a shot at getting his views aired, before the huge states slam the convention door. "One big primary" would reward the establishment candidates with big corporate donors.

Plus, if the nominee were chosen in one night's voting, GD-P would not have this superb infotainment value.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. They will be seated with some type of compromise process in place
Perhaps caucuses, maybe a mail in do-over primary, something like that. They cannot be totally excluded.

I do not think they can be seated with the results of their primaries accepted the way they are now because only Hillary was on the ballot in Michigan and except for some questionable "fundraising" trips to Fla, no one campaigned there.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. They will be excluded...
,,,Or the DNC will go through this ritual every 4 years until they finally exclude someone.

They will not get seated this year, not for moral or political reasons, but because states have to understand that if they don't play by the rules there will be repercussions.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The "rules" say that the Credentials Committee gets to decide.
You can't appeal to the rules on second and then say they don't matter the next.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You're missing the point
Even if the Credentials Committee decides to play kingmaker and seats the delegates, other states will get the message they can move around with impunity. You'll have 50 states trying to make themselves the new Iowa, and they'll know the DNC won't have the teeth to punish them because they will be hamstrung in the end by the Committee.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Which begs the question: what did the "old" Iowa do to deserve its privilege?
This is precisely the point.
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here are the facts about Florida. Don't go opining without them.
http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q3

The main points are:

It was Republicans, not Democrats, who moved the primary up. The Dems tried to stop it.

ALL Democratic candidates were on the ballot. All candidates were treated the same.

(Not included in this background piece is that the only Democratic candidate who advertised in Florida was Obama.)

I don't know about Michigan, but a review of the above facts convinces me that Florida's delegates deserve to be seated. Otherwise, we are disenfranchising an important state solely because the Republicans manipulated us into it.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Too late
The time to fight this was before the election, not after it.

They were told months back they were not going to count. They have no leg to stand on now just because the result favors a particular candidate.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You're simply mistaken. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. Please stop lying and blaming the Republicans. I have posted proof.
It was not the fault of the GOP anymore than the Democrats.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here are the really true facts about Florida. They should not count
toward choosing a nominee. It will be the credentials committee who decides, made up of 25 appointed by Dean, and the rest by Obama and Hillary. I doubt they would do this, as there are no delegates in Florida. Florida was sanctioned by the DNC.

More:

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527



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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. They should just give you a sticky thread at the top of the forum.
I can't believe how much bullshit gets spread here that always ends up being cleaned up by you with your information.

:toast:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's really just a few BS spreaders....trying to bait us.
They are trying to make us angry.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. True that! I ran across DU during the 2004 election cycle, and
stayed because of all the information available.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. The true facts about Florida and why they will count
Florida Law, DNC Rules, Punishments, and Primaries
by dhonig, Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 05:26:00 PM EST

There is a tremendous amount of information floating around here, much of it wrong, a lot of it right, about Florida and its primary. One very good, but incomplete, diary by RenaRF can be found HERE, entitled "Not Like This." I agree with many of RenaRF's sentiments, but am discouraged by a few missing facts, and by the MANY misunderstandings in the comments. I will attempt, as dispassionately as possible, to add a bit of information to the conversation.

First, Florida's actual LAW, as it stands today. F.S. 103.101 actually sets the date of the Presidential Primary for both parties. To have a new primary would require an act of the Legislature and the signature of the Governor, and both are Republican.

Cross-posted at the Big Orange Blog, so if you want people there to see it this is the place to recommend and comment.



The law states, in relevant part:


(1) Each political party other than a minor political party shall, on the last Tuesday in January in each year the number of which is a multiple of 4, elect one person to be the candidate for nomination of such party for President of the United States or select delegates to the national nominating convention, as provided by party rule.

What does this mean? Well, the easy part is that it means Florida's Democratic Party can not hold another primary, in person or by mail. But what else does it mean? Can Florida's Democratic Party hold caucuses, or a mail-in "straw poll"? Well, that's a tough call. On the one hand, the LAW says the party SHALL have a primary and SHALL elect one person to be the candidate, but there's a caveat, "as provided by party rule." That creates a conflict in the statute, since the statute requires a primary, but the Party rules permit caucuses. The Supreme Court, in California Democratic Party v. Jones, et al., described the supremacy of parties in primaries, under a freedom of association analysis.

Conclusion? Caucuses, or something that looks like them, are probably okay. Ditto straw polls.

But what actually happened? Lots of people have talked about "punishing" Florida, as if it were a 3 year old to be put in timeout. But it is not. It is a tremendously important State filled with millions of dedicated Democrats. How did we get here?

Well, it started with both parties in the legislature looking to move the primary date up some, to have some relevance. Both parties were behind it. No question about it. But then something funny happened. The Republican-controlled legislature not only picked an early date, it picked a REALLY early date, January 29, 2008. From there, let the Florida Democratic Party tell you what happened:


Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party's efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority's throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.



"Hey man, I don't want to read all that. Tell me what happened." Okay, I will. We got hosed. After the Republicans f'ed us on the date and rejected our amendments to move it back to Super Tuesday, they shoved the whole thing into an Omnibus Bill that included paper trails for ballots. We had already lost on the date. But there was no way the Florida Democrats were going to vote against paper ballots. It was, in effect, the ultimate poison pill.

Also, it only meant losing half the delegates, so at least Florida would still have a voice.

"What?! What are you talking about?"

Well, you see, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules 2008 were actually written in 2006. The Florida Legislature amended the statute in Spring, 2007. At that time (and actually, still, but read on) the rule said:


Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state's delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.

"Hey, doesn't that solve the problem? Sure, they get less, but they're not 'disenfranchised,' right?" Well, yeah, but then came Donna Brazile. Now mind you, the DNC Rules Committee did not even need to meet, the sanctions were automatic:


Upon a determination of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee that a state is in violation as set forth in subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule, the reductions required under those subsections shall become effective automatically and immediately and without further action of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, the Executive Committee of the DNC, the DNC or the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention.

On August 25, 2007, long after the Florida Legislation passed, Ms. Brazile decided she was going to make an example of Florida. She said ""I'm going to send a message to everybody in Florida that we're going to follow the rules." By "the rules," by the way, she meant the date of primary rules, not the DNC's own rules about punishment. What the Rules Committee really did was create an ex post facto new rule to punish Florida (and Michigan). Did the Rules Committee have the authority to do that? Let's look again at the Rules:


Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions, including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C., against a state party and against the delegation from the state which is subject to the provisions of any of subsections (1) through (3) of this section C., including, without limitation, establishing a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances.

WHOA! It looks like they had the authority, but also had an obligaton. How did they establish a procedure that was (a) broadly representative, (b) reflected the State's preference, and (c) involved broad participation? Simple answer. They didn't. NOT. AT. ALL. But what is this "subsection (b) of this section C"? Funny you should ask, because it doesn't really apply. You see, the "failure" falls under subsection (2), as noted above:


Nothing in these rules shall prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing sanctions the Committee deems appropriate with respect to a state which the Committee determines has failed or refused to comply with these rules, where the failure or refusal of the state party is not subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of this section C. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: reduction of the state's delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of the state's temporary and permanent members to the Standing Committees; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of guests, VIP and other passes/tickets to the National Convention and related functions; assignment of location of the state's delegates and alternates in the Convention hall; and assignment of the state's housing and other convention related facilities.

In other words, the complete ban should not have happened. What should have happened? Funny you ask, because there is a rule about that, too:


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

Let's break that one up, okay?


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law

Okay, Florida meets that requirement. The date change was a legislative act.


but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary,

Was there an investigation? I don't remember one. Were there hearings? Nope. Not one.


determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules

Is this the stumbling block? There is no question Florida Democrats tried to amend the statute to bring it into compliance with the rule. They lost. However, you might say, the Democrats then voted for the law. Yes, they did, but they were also voting for paper trails. Is the DNC really saying the Democrats, who tried to amend the statute and lost, should have voted against paper trails? Gosh I hope not. This is about one election. Paper trails are about EVERY election. Also, having failed to hold an investigation, they were not in a position to make such a decision, were they?


and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules,

Tell me, if you could, how you act to "prevent legislative changes" OTHER than to attempt to amend the legislation? Really, isn't that what they did, and failed?


the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

"Legislative changes," as is AMENDMENTS.

By all appearances, the DNC Rules Committee did not even try. It simply DEMANDED that Florida have caucuses, or non-binding "primaries," after the early 4, or SCREW FLORIDA.

Could somebody please find that SCREW FLORIDA section in the rules? Because I could not. It ain't there.

What does this mean moving forward? I haven't a clue. The DNC royally screwed the pooch on this one. Obama supporters sure have a good argument the primary that was held should not count, given the DNC's ruling. Clinton supporters have just as good an argument that under the Rules, AS WRITTEN AND STILL IN FORCE, the August 25 action was null and void, therefore revert to the actual rules and count 1/2 the pledged delegates.







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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I just posted two lawsuits won by the DNC last year...plus a Supreme Court ruling.
And you still are arguing.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. The DNC ruling changed the Charter of the Democratic Party.....
...which guarantees full participation by all members. No matter who agreed to such a democratically repugnant voting rights abridgment, it is wrong.

Consider the Democratic Party's aggressive support of voting rights through the years and tell me again how denying the rights of 3 million Democrats who voted in these primaries is supported by the Democratic Party Charter.

This is beyond Obama and Clinton because allocating these delegates will not affect who wins the nomination. It's about the Democratic Party's credibility and relevance to the functionality of a republic founded on the dogma of equal participation by all its members.

Just think, I say think of how these 3 million Democrats must feel about what their own Democratic Party did to them.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Ah no, you are just spreading more BS
It is like BS spreading contest here.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. madfloridian if you would take the time to read my post
You might understand what is going on with the DNC and the FDP. Your not looking at the legal aspects of the changes made by either DNC or FDP. I'm saying this is not spreading BS, it's trying to educate people about what has transpired here in florida.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Here are the court rulings in favor of the DNC.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I know the court rulings but it doesn't make it right
And how does that effect the voters of Florida. It's just not right to take a persons vote away. I've never been in a situation in my life where I voted and it didn't count. This is just crazy. I just don't understand how a persons vote wont count in a major election cycle. Regardless of the governing bodies involved, it's just not right. It's like taking a little bit of freedom away. That's my feelings and I just wanted you to be aware of that madfloridian.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. All of the voters KNEW their vote for primary would not count
prior to either voting or not voting. They should be mad at the FL dems not at the DNC.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. yourguide, actually that's not accurate
I never got a mailer from the DNC, FDP, or anyone else stating our vote didn't count. I can't speak for the rest of florida but I have always voted and I should have gotten something in the mail about it. The only mailer I got was an absentee ballot which had all the candidates on it but it never stated anything about our vote not counting.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. It was ALL over the news!
I live in NY and I knew about this months ago.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Heh
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 03:45 PM by wileedog
You have 1000+ posts on a Democratic website and somehow you missed the memo that your entire state was disqualified?

Really?

And I realize your point was about the larger population not being informed, but certainly most people interested enough in politics to vote in a primary would have access to *SOME* form of media outlet to hear this news. Enough of a % to sway the results.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Then make your state leaders pay for what they did. It was their fault.
They did it on purpose. I have posted many quotes where they said so.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. I think Obama will try to win so big that that becomes moot.
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