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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:37 PM
Original message
DO NOT discount John McCain
McCain’s Wisconsin Victory Speech Remarks
“I will fight every moment of every day in this campaign to make sure Americans are not deceived by an eloquent but empty call for change that promises no more than a holiday from history and a return to the false promises and failed policies of a tired philosophy that trusts in government more than people. Our purpose is to keep this blessed country free, safe, prosperous and proud. And the changes we offer to the institutions and policies of government will reflect and rely upon the strength, industry, aspirations and decency of the people we serve.”

And when he said proud, do you think he might have been referring to a rather injudicious statement by Mrs. Obama? See below.
McCain vs Obama...Cindy vs Michelle, That Is
It started innocuously enough. Michelle Obama, wife of Democratic candidate Barack Obama, D-Ill., was talking about her husband’s message of hope. “What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback,” she said at a rally Monday in Milwaukee. “It is making a comeback and let me tell you something,” she continued, “for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country.”… It got some mention on political blogs, but not much more than that. Until another political wife - Cindy McCain - put in her two cents. “I'm proud of my country,” McCain said Tuesday, during an introduction of her husband, the Arizona senator and soon-to-be nominee of the Republican party, John McCain. “I don’t know about you, if you heard those words earlier, I’m very proud of my country.”

Which of those statements do you think will “resignate” in the hearts of American voters?
Bit in His Teeth (by Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo)
Some time a week or so ago I read an article about the Obama-McCain relationship (send me the link?). And the gist was that the antagonism between these two men (at least from McCain's side) isn't something cooked up to order for this campaign. This goes all the way back to when Obama showed up in the senate. And it seems to come down to a sense of 'I've been working at this my whole life and who the f--k is this Obama kid?'

A McCain cabinet could bear shades of Teddy Roosevelt
Democrats already are regularly attacking John McCain for offering what they characterize as a third George W. Bush term. But a new Theodore Roosevelt presidency might be closer to the mark.

Never mind that Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive. Never mind that he QUIT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY! But against a guy who looks like a kid, anything is possible.
RNC donor event outlines Obama attack plan
Focusing on Barack Obama’s "inexperience" and "undisciplined messaging" are two ways to ensure that the senator from Illinois doesn’t get to be president, according to honchos at the Republican National Committee.

Judging Hillary's Experience (by Marie Coco, Washington Post Writers’ Group)
Fresh-face-for-the-future versus failed-policies-of-the-past is an easy, if not automatic, choice for these times, the thinking goes. The prescription may well involve a large dose of wishful thinking. It ignores, in particular, the difficulty that Obama has had attracting support from older Democrats, who have routinely supported Clinton… (M)any of them tend to fit the profile of the original Reagan Democrats. Some of them, in fact, were Reagan Democrats who have since returned to the fold. The men, especially, have little discomfort in switching parties in the general election, particularly when national security issues come to the fore. Many of them are military veterans, and they may instinctively trust McCain on national security, even if they have soured on the Iraq War.

And they will not hesitate to vote Republican again, as Froma Harrop told us, when they compare the resumes of McCain and Obama.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. You never read McCain's book did you?
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 12:46 PM by blm
Obama is going to do great against him.

We certainly don't need the Bushprotecting Clintons trying to come off as the ethical choice against McCain.

McCain won't hesitate to undermine both Bushes and Clintons once the nomination is his in the fall, and THAT will be just what he needs to scoop up the lion's share of Independent votes and get rid of both Bushes and Clintons at the same time.

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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Go ahead and close your eyes.
We'll have another four years at least of a Republican in the White House.

I have no proof, but I can't help but think Karl Rove has been working for McCain since he left the White House. I believe he has helped engineer all this adoration for Obama. If not, David Axelrod studied well and saw how it's done.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Get real. You want BushInc to stay in business under another protective Clinton?
Obama is doing well because he's far better organized than Clinton machine who has only used that 'machine' to undermine other Dems behind the scenes the last 8 years.

Obama is doing well because he tapped into the last topnotch network another Dem figure had organized during that time - Kerry's. Couple that with a DNC headed by Dean who put a 50 state strategy to work, and Obama was BOUND to succeed.

Obama will do GREAT because he has a topnotch national network AND the best advisors a progressice team can have at this point, both domestically and internationally. Hillary's top advisor was the same top American advisor Tony Blair had from 2001-2007. How did that work out for Tony and his nation?
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Look at him!! He looks like he’s ready to fall over. Half his supporters will be in nursing homes...
Who’s to say McCant will even be alive by next January? Look at him!! He looks like he’s ready to fall over. Hell by next fall, the supporters around him will be dead too, or will be so damn senile that they’ll forget just who the hell he is. That’s the danger of courting the old age homes. Sure they may support you now, but next week there may be Bingo, or they may be dead.

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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Which is why Karl and Shrubbo have been pimping for Hill to win almost since she announced, right?
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.....

I want to see how a crusty, cranky 71 yr-old ex-Keating five husband of a former prescription-pill addict that has wrapped himself around the economic and military policies of the most despised leader in the US since Richard M. Nixon takes on the message of hope and change...

I really do...

Because once Obama is done kicking his ass six ways from Sunday we can get back to the business of making this country great again...
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. It's why Bush and Rove ...
... have been working behind the scenes to make sure Obama is the nominee. They didn't fool me, and it's a damn shame they've fooled so many.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.ocm
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Don't suppose you'd care to back that assertion up with any proof would you?
..Thanks!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Obviously you HAVE been fooled - because BushInc would LOVE to have Clinton follow him
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 05:35 PM by blm
in office even more than McCain - Clintons PROTECT the Bushes - they always have and always will. McCain hasn't proved himself half as much as Bill did throughout the 90s.

Who do you THINK deep-sixed all those outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning whenever needed in the 90s?

Bill Clinton - didn't even mention one word about BCCI or CIA drugrunning operations in his book.

Jackson Stephens bankrolled the right boy for Poppy Bush in Arkansas didn't he? You know Jackson Stephens, right Caro? Another crony of Poppy Bush who BROUGHT BCCI into this country. That's all.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. I must take issue with you.
It's "...once Obama is done kicking his pasty, droopy, wrinkly old ass six ways from Sunday..."
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Sorry about that. Consider me suitably admonished and I promise not to do it again.
:rofl:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. He can't even scrape Huckabee off his shoe.
:rofl:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another Hillary supporter now portraying McCain as some sort of
impressive guy who's making such DEVASTATING ATTACKS--Oh Noez!! Who gives a fuck, really? McCain will say whatever the fuck the old fossil and his Stepford Bobblehead want to say, and Obama will counter it.
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. You are naive if you think McCain will go quietly. Incredibly naive.
The GOP has shown us time and again that they will stop at nothing to win.

No attack is too sleazy, nothing is too shameful for them.

Before you come back with the tired old "Hillary did it, too!" bullshite, you had better understand that you dismiss McCain and the GOP smear machine at your own peril.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I don't dismiss anybody. I'm not naive at all. I just think it's weird that
one Hillary supporter after another is posting McCain's attacks on Obama, almost in an admiring way (as if they agree), as if to "warn" us that McCain might actually try to win in November (and as if Hillary is magically immune if she's the nominee). How fucking stupid do y'all think we are? Of COURSE they're going to attack him. What are we all supposed to do, curl up in fetal position? Run in circles, scream and shout?
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. The point remains. Hillary has already faced the GOP smear machine and survived. Obama hasn't even
had a taste of what is waiting for him.

Soaring rhetoric and pretty words aren't going to cut it.

You had better get yourself prepared for that. We can all see it coming from a mile away.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. That whole "faced the GOP machine and survived" thing is ridiculous.
Bill had personal charm--he was Teflon. That was why they "survived". They gave the GOP so much ammo, I thought maybe Bill was probably not quite as smart as he's been portrayed. Sorry, I don't hold her up in awe and glory because she and her husband couldn't stop stepping in dogshit, yet managed to scrape it off their shoes. Obama was smart enough NOT to step in it in the first place. That's why he's a better candidate. He'll do fine.
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Oh yes, the "we hate Bill Clinton" brigade is still here.
You are going to be a fun one to watch over the next several months.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. Yep - they really countered "Clintons trashed the WH' lie swiftly - only lasted 10 months.
Wow - now THAT is some well-oiled machine.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Don't Think You Could Sell Him At Full Retail...
:eyes:
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Mark the date.
February 20, 2008.

I will get no pleasure whatever from saying I TOLD YOU SO.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. You're right.
You won't get any pleasure from saying that. :)
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BridgeTheGap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't care how much of a discount they're giving - I'M NOT BUYING!!! n.t
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. What is your point with this "I love McCain" post? You put a lot of work into it.
I'm sorry your candidate is not going to be the nominee, but please don't come here and post pro-McCain bullshit.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. What is it with all these HillShills, low post counts
on here since 2001. Didn't DU start as a progressive Dem website?

:shrug:
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. What, I'm not WORTHY?
What constitutes worthiness to express my opinion here?

And when does all the unity start? After everybody who disagrees with you has ben whipped into shape? How is that different from right-wing hatemongers?

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. I posit the same exact question to the rabid Hillary defenders.
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 02:54 PM by 48percenter
Oh and call off your dog Barffenburger who thinks Obama supporters that drive Priuses, drink lattes, wear Birkenstocks and might have trust funds: according to this dickhead, we don't matter either.

Wanna Hertz Donut?
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. McCain will be exposed for the empty suit he is, Bush already laid the groundwork when he beat...
...McCain in the republican primary in 2000.

Now McCain is seen as pandering to capture the neoconartists (hickup) I mean conservatives.

McCain ran his nomination backwards. He started out center right and now has to move extreme right.

Bush did his party no favors when he ran the flip-flop express over the Democratic party in the last round of elections.

It's now McCain that looks like a flip-flopper. Starting with his most recent vote concerning torture.

The real question is; how hard will DNC PACs go after him. This election cycle it's time to take the gloves off and go balls to the wall and nail him with everything we have.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Who will do the exposing? You? On DU?
he is less than an empty suit - as OP also agrees - but expect the media to change favorites.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but he is not as tough as the OP makes him out to be.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. But the Mighty Slime Machine LOVES McCain and Have Been Shilling for Him for Years
He is a much stronger candidate than Bush** was (either time), and he can count on the full support of the adoring Repiglickin media.

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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. Keep on dreaming.
It's what Obama supporters like to do.

You won't even know what hit you.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. don't discount McCain
national security will be a huge campaign issue and it's going to hurt Obama, he's got no real international political experience and a thin domestic record as well

the rethugs will blast him on national security, thin domestic record, "liberal" politics (even though Obama eschewed that term, interestingly), etc.....

Hillary has a solid international experience record, she's got a solid domestic record as well...

just yesterday i listened to a right wing talk show on my way to work (you need to know what the enemy is saying)......they were ridiculing Michelle, this is going to hurt in november
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Obama has more relevant foreign policy experience than Hillary. You're just wrong.
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 01:13 PM by wienerdoggie
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. that he lived in indonesia? and visited kenya?
who are you kidding?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. That he has a degree in International Relations from Columbia, and
is on the Foreign Relations Committee. Who are YOU kidding?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. oh, spare me
getting that degree does not qualify one, sorry, i know those from even more elite uni and it does not qualify
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. He was the chairman of a subcommittee ...
... and never held a meeting.

Too busy furthering his career.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. In what universe?
Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. you mean i gotta pay full price for that lemon?
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 12:52 PM by Cheap_Trick
fuuuuck
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. target rich environment
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-kleiman/obama-fans-cease-fire_b_87570.html

"I propose a moratorium on criticism of Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign by supporters of Barack Obama. From now on, the focus should be on John McCain, who, after all, offers a target-rich environment:

... don't know much about economics ... 100 years in Iraq ... mean, filthy jokes about little girls ... bomb, bomb, bomb Iran ... Keating S&L ... "there will be more wars" ... foul temper ... flip-flops ... dumping his first wife when she was in a wheelchair for someone able-bodied, prettier, and richer ... zero legislative accomplishment other than McCain-Feingold, which his campaign is evading ..."
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. He's attached himself to Bush
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. Do I have to remind you ...
... that Bush prevailed in 2004, EVEN WITH LOW APPROVAL RATINGS?

Honestly, I wish you people would wake up.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. We'll see if Successor to War President is the sequel written
I'm not so sure I'm as worried as you are...
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
20. McCain's speech seemed hollow to me
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 01:05 PM by CJCRANE
and there were parts where he seemed to be struggling, especially the neocon-inserted claptrap about "fighting for the soul of Islam". People are tired of hearing about war and Islam all the time. They want to hear about things that will change America for the better.

ed: spelling
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. A commenter on TPM summed it up perfectly:
'McCain's speech sounded like he was ordering take-out.'

He's friggin' old, and he's not old and spry. He's tired, and most likely sick as well.

He may not even last the whole campaign before he has to start cancelling events due to exhaustion.

- as
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Never underestimate the opposition.
Not EVER. Haven't you read Sun Tze? Oh, that's right, he's old AND DEAD. So you don't have to pay any attention at all.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. Sun Tzu?
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 03:11 PM by americanstranger
Sure, read 'The Art Of War' a number of times, thanks.

And FYI, pointing out that an opponent is old and apparently in frail health is 'underestimating' him... how?

Incidentally, here's a quote from 'The Art Of War:'

10. You may advance and be absolutely irresistible, if you make for the enemy's weak points.

McCain's age and frailty are his weak points. Not to mention his hypocrisy, opportunism, temperament and insider status in the DC establishment (his 'maverick' label notwithstanding).

'Never underestimate the enemy' is a good rule from TAOW - but it's not the only rule.

- as
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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. >>if you make for the enemy's weak points
I guess that's why Karl Rove has had so much success going after his opponents' STRONG points and MAKING THEM into weak points.

I've been trying for eight long years to get Democrats to understand what we're up against. We keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Pretty insane, huh?

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. How to discount McCain:
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. Never underestimate your opposition, are very wise words!
I support Obama, but I learned a long time ago that the minute you dismiss your opponent as unable to win, YOU LOSE! Just think back to 2004 when we were POSITIVE Shrub couldn't win a second term!!!
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. He didn't WIN it - another little thingy to watch for
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I didn't say HOW or WHY, but who the hell is in the WH?
It's imperative that you watch your opponent very closely. Whether it be strategy, tactics (legal or illegal). The important thing is WHO ends up in the WH!
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
27. McCain Beats Hillary In Almost Every Poll
McCain will be extremely hard for either Hillary or Obama to beat.

It would be most useful to see how they would go about attacking him
(instead of each other).

As it stands now, I don't see how either of them can beat him.

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Caro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. And the polls have been SO reliable.
Fine, sit back, relax. And get ready for four more years of a Republican president.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Let Them Show Us How They Will Beat McCain
Fine, sit back, relax. And get ready for four more years of a Republican president.


That seems to be what the candidates are doing.

They are obviously capable of attacking each other, but can they lay a glove on McCain?

We haven't seen that yet from either of them.

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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
47. There's always a discount on used goods.
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 04:12 PM
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56. If Obama gets nominated, McCain won't worry me at all. On the other hand...
...if Hillary gets nominated, I'll be terrified of McCain.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:31 PM
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58. my Republican boss said this afternoon that McCain would be 4 more years
Of Bush and we cant take that anymore.
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