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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:53 PM
Original message
Contrary to the Obama campaign's claims that the race is over,....
Edited on Wed Feb-20-08 06:02 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
As more voters make their choice for the Democratic nomination, there is growing interest in the facts and myths about the race to reach 2208 delegate votes - the number required for a candidate to secure the nomination with Florida and Michigan included. The Obama campaign is claiming, without precedent or justification, that automatic delegates (commonly referred to as "super delegates") should switch to Sen. Obama en masse based on arbitrary metrics, with the aim of tilting the delegate balance in his favor. The fact is: no automatic delegate is required to cast a vote on the basis of anything other than his or her best judgment about who is the most qualified to be president.

Five Facts about Democratic Delegates

FACT: Pledged delegates and automatic delegates are the same - they each count for ONE vote.

The Democratic Party chooses its delegates in three ways: 1) through primaries where millions vote; 2) through caucuses where thousands vote; and 3) it gives a role to elected leaders and other party activists in the process.

Automatic delegates (commonly referred to as "super delegates") comprise the third category. Automatic delegates come from all 56 states and territories and consist of Democratic members of Congress, Democratic governors, distinguished party leaders (including former Democratic presidents, vice presidents, former House and Senate Democratic leaders and former DNC Chairs) and members of the Democratic National Committee. These DNC members are activists and grassroots supporters who are focused on helping Democrats win at all levels of elective office. There is no difference between pledged delegates and automatic delegates - they each count as one delegate in the final tally and no distinction is made between them at the convention.


FACT: Neither candidate can secure the nomination without automatic delegates.

The Obama campaign is trying to shut down the Democratic race before the rest of the country votes. There are still many states and territories that have not voted with over 1000 delegates at stake.

These delegates represent nearly half of the 2,208 delegate votes needed for the nomination. It is mathematically impossible for Sen. Obama to secure the delegate votes needed for the nomination without automatic delegates. This is why, despite publicly attempting to discount the role of automatic delegates, the Obama campaign is aggressively courting - and pressuring - them behind the scenes.

FACT: Automatic delegates are expected to exercise their best judgment in the interests of the nation and the Democratic Party.

The Obama campaign is claiming that automatic delegates must follow the lead of pledged delegates and switch their vote to Sen. Obama.

This is false and unfounded - and it is contradicted by Sen. Obama's top strategist, David Axelrod, who said, "These are elected officials from across the country and they're supposed to exercise their judgment as to what would be best for the party. And as they look at this, they need to decide who would be the strongest candidate for the party." This view is echoed by other prominent Democratic leaders, including House Majority Whip James Clyburn and DNC Chairman Howard Dean, who has said of automatic delegates, "Their role is to exercise their best judgment in the interests of the nation and of the Democratic Party."


FACT: Florida and Michigan should count, both in the interest of fundamental fairness and honoring the spirit of the Democrats' 50-state strategy.

An important part of the debate over delegates is the role of Florida and Michigan. Hillary Clinton believes that the voices of 600,000 Michigan primary voters and 1.75 million Florida primary voters should be heard at the Democratic convention.


In the 2004 presidential race, the turnout in Michigan was only a quarter of what it was this year - and the 2004 turnout in Florida was less than half of what it was this year. With such dramatically increased turnout, Hillary won those two states and she did it with all candidates on an equal footing. In Florida, all presidential candidates were on the primary ballot and all followed the rules (except for Sen. Obama who broke the rules by running television ads in violation of his pledge to the early states and to the other presidential candidates). In Michigan, Sen. Obama voluntarily withdrew his name from the primary ballot to curry favor with Iowa. He was under no obligation to do so. However, his supporters organized a substantial vote for 'uncommitted' on the ballot, thus he is represented in the delegation. Hillary Clinton obeyed all the rules in Florida and Michigan and came out ahead. She had no intrinsic advantage over her opponents other than the will of the voters. The voters of Florida and Michigan should be heard and the delegates from Florida and Michigan should count.

FACT: There is a clear path to an overall delegate majority (pledged + automatic) for Hillary Clinton after all states have voted -- with or without Florida and Michigan.

Contrary to the Obama campaign's claims that the race is over, all voters should have their say before a candidate declares victory and tries to circumvent the democratic process. The race is currently a virtual tie, with the campaigns now separated by a small handful of delegates, barely 1% of all the delegates to the Democratic Convention.

Hillary Clinton has won states from New York to California and everywhere in between. She has won in states north, south, east and west, red and blue. She has won states she was not expected to win -- such as Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Arizona. She has won in rural, urban and suburban areas. She has won key swing general election states such as Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Arkansas and Tennessee. She is winning virtually all the states a Democrat will need to win the presidency. Hillary Clinton is working for every vote in the many contests to come and she believes every vote should count. By June 7, when Puerto Rico holds its election, Hillary will be in a position to clinch the Democratic nomination.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Paid for by Hillary Clinton for President

Paid for by Hillary Clinton for President

UPDATE: See, for example, this sort of bullshit isn't the kind of thing they need to be wasting their time on. Persuade some people to vote for you!

There seem to maybe be too many aides over there who enjoy talking to reporters and want to come up with some interesting debater's points about whether or not there was a campaign in Florida and the metaphysical status of DNC at-large members when they need to be talking to voters.

link


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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. I only know about pledged and super delegates...
I don't recognize these newfangled "automatic delegates"

Nice try though. :)
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fact - Hillary is hemorging delegates
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Where did you plagiarize that from?
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VenusRising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. delegatehub.com
Set up and paid for by Hillary Clinton for President.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Way to repost bullshit from delegategrab.org
or whatever the fuck the name of that site is.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. actually
I may just register

votetheft.com
votertheft.com
delegatetheft.com
stealdelegates.com
stealtheelection.com

and route the traffic STRAIGHT to that site.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. I'm with you...
here are a few more ideas:

poacheddelegates.com
delegatepoacher.com
electionthieves.com

Let me know if you really plan on doing this, I'd like to help.

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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. can i chip in?
seriously. how about catapultingthepropoganda.com.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. THIS IS NOT FACT
THIS IS PROPAGANDA FROM HRC'S BS WEBSITE.

DELEGATEHUB.COM - OWNED BY HRC FOR PRESIDENT.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. It is shocking that there are several obvious lies
Starting with the claim that Axelrod says the automatic delegates MUST follow the national leader. He never said MUST, nor did any surrogate say that - they said that they expect that the automatic delegates will follow the leader.

The reason this is a problem is that it is the Clintons who are trying to do something that if it were suggested a year ago - without candidates named - would have been immediately rejected.

The Clintons are very quickly damaging their reputations and their likability. I would love to see a new Bill Clinton approval rating.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. There is no such thing as an "automatic" delegate. Any shill who posts here with that term
needs to be called out for what they are.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. mm...a nice hot cup of propaganda...served up fresh and hot...
and unlinked and unsourced.
how decidely deceitful of you!
:evilgrin:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well done! Your candidate would be proud. nt
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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hillary Huckabee

Hillary Huckabee: one who can't accept defeat and bow out with grace.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. LOL
1. "automatic delegate" is just something the Clintons decided to rename "superdelegate."

2. The superdelegates will go for whoever has the most pledged delegates. Obama's got a 159 lead in superdelegates. That's very solid.

3. Which is why they're going to vote for Obama. See above.

4. They should count, too bad they broke the rules. Would they rather be like Missouri?

5. Obama's clearly leading delegates. No ifs, ands, or buts.


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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. LMAO. Plagiarizing delegatehub.com?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. I see things are back to normal around here
After all of the olive branches extended from the hands of "Obamites" and "kool-aid drinkers" and "cultists" and so on... to the Hillary supporters. And the high minded discussions on how we move forward as a party and unite behind our nominee...

(and, admittedly, a number of low blow "pay backs" and snark from the not-so-high minded of us)

I see we are back to normal... Hillary still has a chance... all she needs is FL and MI delegates (not that ANY of the MI uncommitted should be allocated to Obama)... and the super delegates have a perfect right to override the will of the people... and what about those big states of OH and TX and PA which are still to come... blah blah blah

This won't stop until someone drives a stake through the heart of the Hillary campaign. It's like a zombie ("Must Eat Brains").

sigh.

Well, I told everyone that we have at least two more weeks of this... maybe months and months...

don't be offering the olive branch out only to pull back a bloody stump where your hand used to be.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. FACT: Hillary will do whatever it takes to win. nt
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. Lose, much?
I'm not talking about the election. I'm talking about cut'n'paste from a campaign website without even a link or an attribution. Pathetic.

The stuff you copied from delegatehub is pretty much BS as well. Why don't they include the audio of Hillary saying a few months back that contests like Michigan don't count? Why don't they do the math to show that as of today Hillary would still lag behind Obama even if both states were included in delegate counts?

This is why the Clinton campaign is losing. They don't realize that opinion formers who get their political news from the web have bullshit filters in place.
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Automatic Delegate -- just fire Penn and hire Rove
they know they want to.... The Clear Skies initiative was a stroke of genius.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's a fine fact for you
Hillary is going to have to pull in over sixty percent in each and every state from here to the convention, without losing anymore superdelegates, in order to win the nomination. Do you honestly thing that she can do that? If so, then there are several reputable betting establishments over in London, and I would suggest that you put your money where your mouth is.

Also, do you really want the superdelegates to decide this one, in an obviously undemocratic power play by Clinton? Do you realize that if the superdelegates hand Clinton the nomination, you can kiss Hillary and the party's ass goodbye, because the party will lose massive support for such an undemocratic usurpation of the peoples' will.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. yes i do want the super delegates to decide because of the 1 time Republican crossover votes for ...
Obama in the OPEN caucus and primary states

those repuke voters will NOT be there in to vote in the GE in November .....that is what the super delegates were created for to counter
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Ahh yes, Hillary supporters, taking the "democratic" out of the party
You know, these primaries and caucuses have been open for many elections cycles now, yet rarely have I heard people complain about them until now. First of all because the crossover voters have yet to play a major role in deciding who gets the nomination, and secondly it was generally considered a good thing to have Independents and 'Pugs voting Democratic. There have been studies done showing that if somebody crosses over to an opposing party's primary race, they generally stay there for that election cycle. In other words, the Democrats are picking up votes. Isn't that a good thing?

But since some vague number of these people are voting for Obama(and really now, how large is this number? It's been shown time and again that it is a low, low number, less than five percent), Hillary supporters get all up in arms, and now want to defy the will of the people and the will of the voters all to put their candidate into office.

Sad, desperate and pathetic. If you're willing to defy the will of the people, all to put your candidate on the ticket, are you even sure that you are a democrat, or a Democrat, anymore?
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. WTF? You just plagiarized Hillary's Delegate Site? How absolutely PATHETIC. Listen to
me very carefully.

Hillary Clinton will NOT be the Democratic Nominee.
She is behind and cannot catch up.
She cannot gain enough delegates and (here's the important part) she CANNOT STEAL THEM.

What an embarassment.
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my3boyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. Hillary supporters say that Obama supporters are drinking Kool-aid
but it is clear that Hillary supporters are drinking it by the gallon if you believe any of the crap they put on their website. Of course, they are not going to say that there is only a remote possibility that they could ever win and that it would not be by pledged delegates. They want you on the boards spreading lies. They want you scraping up your cash and sending it in so they can continue on with their pathetic journey of destroying the party.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. Excellent post. :)
Good job.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. FACT; Florida and Michigan should count
You lost me there. No way in hell. This has been rehashed a 1000 times.
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bjnumb9 Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. Wow this post was a bunch of BS
"FACT: Florida and Michigan should count, both in the interest of fundamental fairness and honoring the spirit of the Democrats' 50-state strategy.

An important part of the debate over delegates is the role of Florida and Michigan. Hillary Clinton believes that the voices of 600,000 Michigan primary voters and 1.75 million Florida primary voters should be heard at the Democratic convention."



FACT: Trying to go back on her word that the states would not count is one case out of many why so many detest her campaign. Count me among them. I could never vote for someone who would use such an angle to be the nominee. Many other young voters such as myself feel the same way. That's why we are on the side of the Democrats - similar tactics by Republicans have driven us to in this direction. A move like this (counting FL and MI after all agreed they would not count) is a sure-fire way to send us off to somewhere else.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
29. Victory for Hillary at any cost....charge on troops.
Sorry, but she has no money, no base and no hope of victory. It is over; please don't destroy the party.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
30. Repost from delegatehub without a citation?
You should at least credit the propaganda as opposed to plagiarizing it.
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
31. Lies and propaganda
straight from the Hillary campaign "steal the election" website.

Nice work, does she pay well?
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