Boy it sure is easy to humiliate women in the press, isn't it?

[readmoreoften]

I'm not voting for Clinton. I can't stand many of her policies. (I can't stand Obama's policies though, either.) In fact, I didn't even vote for her in the NY primary. But I didn't vote against her because I 'hated' or 'despised' her. I voted against her because I seriously preferred the opposition candidate and I thought he could do better for the NY constituency.

But the fact that some of you people can't see that she is being viciously torn down in a way that only a woman candidate would be attacked (mostly, mind you, by RWers who don't even disagree with her war stance) I find that both disheartening and enlightening. No real outrage from Obama supporters over the "Iron my shirt" line. No real outrage over an 527 called C.U.N.T. No real outrage over Beat the Bitch. Makes me feel like some of you feel the same way, like you're snickering under your breath. I don't like Clinton as a politician, but I don't despise her as a human being. Not the way you do. (And many of you do.)

You know, there's something to be said for being gracious winners. (Particularly since many of you have done nothing more than bet on a political horse.) Clinton has simply not done anything, really, to deserve the hate you heap onto her. Sure, she voted for a war that killed millions, but so did Dodd and Biden. Where was all the frothing at the mouth and the vitrol then? There was nothing but respect for them. I simply don't believe you hate Clinton because of the IWR. You'd probably feel differently if she was "young". This whole Obama "youth" thing is a dig at Hillary even more than it is at her base. Yes, she's not a young woman. Women age. So what? How shallow of you. Her husband defends her? So what? He's the former POTUS. What's he supposed to do when people ask him about his wife's campaign. The worse among you are those who aren't voting for her, openly, because her husband cheated on her. It's as if you learned civic duty on the Jerry Springer Show--and I don't mean the one on Air America.

The funny thing is, "too pretty" Edwards was tarred with the gender brush too. You better watch out. Obama isn't exactly a pro-wrestler or a cowboy.

To those Obama supporters who have been reasonable people: congratulations and I really hope that your candidate is all you hope him to be. I think he's going to win the general.

To the rest of you: Good god. If this is what you're like when you're 'hopeful' I'd hate to see you on a bad day. You've made me defend one of my least favorite politicians.

If Obama wins the whole shebang, sooner or later he's going to be demonized in the media like you've never seen. And if he isn't, you better wonder why they like him so damn much because those who have interests in the media do not have 'we the people's' best interest at heart.

[Bicoastal]

1. Ya know, just because we don't care for HRC...

...doesn't mean that we don't care for her like THEY do.

[pnwmom]

28. No, but quite a number of DUers are guilty of exactly what the OP says.

DU has been full of hateful, misogynistic, anti-Hillary threads ever since she announced plans to run.

[efhmc]

88. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, DU is ALWAYS full of

hateful, misogynistic threads and comments. Nothing new about that. It is now easier because there is a particular woman to go after and it can be disguised as "a difference of political opinion"..

[miceelf]

96. and racist anti-obama threads.

I can't believe people can't see that this is a two-way street.

Neither side has an excuse. But when I see Michelle Obama referred to as "Obamarosa" and him referred to as "boy", well, racism is alive and well as is sexism.

[efhmc]

102. Did you see these types of post before Obama

was running? I have been here since 2002 and for a progressive place, it is VERY sexist. Freedom of speech always has to be protected when it comes to calling women names. That makes it okay. (Bitch is perfectly okay here.) I think any religious, racial, or sexist remarks are dispicable and do not belong on DU. Just in case you are wondering, I was an Edward's supporter, who is having a heck of a time picking a new candidate. I am sure you are right about the racism. I read little or anything in this forum, but this thread about sexism caught my attention.

[miceelf]

111. Well,

I don't think I saw much racism before this. Not sure that makes it better. But you're right, sexism has been here in strength a long time. Ditto homophobia.
Perhaps the racism wasn't expressed because there wasn't a viable Black candidate up until this point, so the racists didn't really need to express it.

[efhmc]

122. It is shameful that there is still so much prejudice, even here.

[tavalon]

164. Honestly, though, if we were fish, we would be unaware of water

Our culture is so steeped in it, we don't even realize it. I got called on a joke I made about blonds. I was told it was bigoted and after I got over the sting, I realized the person was right. So very steeped in a culture that I didn't realize making stupid blond jokes was sexist.

[efhmc]

172. Uh oh, This Feminist finds those jokes funny. Talk about PI, when I

was growing up they called them little moron jokes and here in Texas, they are Aggie joke. Maybe they would be less sexist if no gender is involved. Perhaps we could call them moran jokes.

[tavalon]

175. Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, especially letting go of those aggie jokes

They write themselves, I swear.

[ExPatLeftist]

191. I find them funny too...

...and I'm not giving them up. I find them funny and non-offensive, and they are often intended at least as much to ironically point out the prejudice itself as to mock anyone.

No matter what we do in life, it is possible that someone will be offended. Of course I consider timing, but I am not going to walk on eggshells all my life.



Bet I get flamed, but not really concerned.

[pnwmom]

146. When has Obama been referred to as "boy" on DU? That would be reprehensible.

Or are you referring to Bill Clinton's calling ALL the male candidates "boys" and Hillary, "girl"?

[Cherchez la Femme]

188. I'd like to see those posts

Hard to believe things like that would be said on a Democratic board!
I've seen enough sexism here, which heretofore has prohibited me from joining DU; but it's time to give it a chance.

Being new here (to posting -- I've visited before esp. to catch up on the latest news Latest Breaking News and scan the Feminist and Gay Forums) I find I can't do a search to find this/these heinous post(s).

That's quite an indictment, please quote your source(s). I'd like to witness such troglodyte behavior, here, for myself.

Thank you.

[Cherchez la Femme]

235. Well? Quote your source.

You accused Democrats (trolls notwithstanding), here on DU, of being racist
and got all kinds of 'oh, isn't it just terrible' commiseration

yet we're still waiting for this proof.

Gee, those tactics sounds so familiar...

[noiretextatique]

70. "15. Old bitter women are like that sometimes. Don't sweat it "

I alerted on this response in your thread, so perhaps you can too.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4688216#4688317

[Independent-Voter]

75. Of course, positive old(er) women tend to have the opposite effect, but that seems to escape you

Look, while some old-school feminists were wasting time burning bras, my mom was working her way through school and starting her first business. She's defiantly the matriarch of the family.

My wife and sister are both strong, self-made women as well, and also own their own businesses. None of these women needed to resort to the bullshit "victim card" to get where they're at, and I'm damn proud of them.

Not incidentally, none of them are voting for HRC. Wonder why?

[noiretextatique]

81. nice revision

still you are full of :hurts:

[Independent-Voter]

82. Revision of what? You don't think that self-made women scoff at the "Victim Card" as played by HRC?

You need to get out more.

[noiretextatique]

84. i think it's an issue you made up

to cover your nasty remark.

[Independent-Voter]

86. Hey, can't help it if the truth hurts. Bitter people are a pain in the ass to deal with. HRC's

campaign oozes it.

[noiretextatique]

87. right...you are still

full of :hurts:

[Independent-Voter]

89. Reality my friend. You should try it sometime

[JustDavid]

103. I know people....and have read people say

that its "exciting" to have a probable first woman president even though they have not the slightest idea of what the candidate stands for. They plan on voting for her due to the simple fact that she is a woman.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong...but "special treatment due to gender" is directly contradicting to feminists beliefs.

Hillary does not want people to vote AGAINST her because she is a woman but will glady accept a vote FOR her based on that fact.

The same theory applies to Obama. He will scream racism at a vote against him based on race, but he will gladly accept a vote FOR him based on race. Nobody should vote against him due to the fact that he is black. (though some will, unfortunately)

If someone doesn't want to vote for Obama because he's black, that is VOTING BASED ON SKIN COLOR. Thats racist and he should denounce that.
If someone votes FOR Obama simply because he is black, that is VOTING BASED ON SKIN COLOR. Thats racist and he should denounce that.

[noiretextatique]

153. some people believe that voting for clinton or obama

is progress simply because they aren't white men, like every president heretofore. i don't think that necessarily true. and most assuredly, there are people who will never vote for a obama because he is half african, or for clinton because she is female. and of course there are people who will vote for obama because he is half african, and for clinton because she is female.
i doubt these folks will be moved to change their opinions, but feel free to denounce them anyway.

[jhrobbins]

208. You know that 'my friend' is really code for ignorant asshole, right?

[noiretextatique]

227. i take that as a compliment

coming from a bitter old man :hi: he can shove his "reality."

[Iris]

204. How so?

Can you give some specific examples?

[jhrobbins]

209. Careful - you are about to be called 'my friend' (see above)

[Iris]

215. Thanks for the warning. I know who my real friends are, though!

I live in the South and I know a fake endearment when I see one!

:)

[SharonAnn]

101. And if they say they don't get any "gender backlash" then they're either naive or lying.

I've had professional peers tell me that they never experienced any sexism and no one ever held them back. I had to point out to them the various ways they, personally, had been held back and had been victims of sexism. They just hadn't seen it.

When someone said "she needs more experience" and the promoted a man with less experience, they believed they truly needed more experience. So, they put their heads down and worked harder instead of realizing that the excuse was baloney.

When things were said about them behind their back and people started treating them differently because of what they had heard, they weren't aware of it and didn't take any action to investigate what was going on or try to defuse it.

When they were told they needed to be "more assertive" or "less aggressive" they didn't realize that those are two sides of of the sexism coin.

When they heard other women being talked about as being "too" anything (as in "I suppose she's smart and all but she's too ...) they didn't realize that this was sexism and that the same kinds of things were being said about them.

When they were paid less than men and found about it, they thought it meant they weren't as good.

Etc., etc.

[Independent-Voter]

108. Or, as in the case of the women in my family, stop crying "Victim!" and start kicking ass

There will always be some type of "-ism" as long as there are people walking on this big blue marble. You can either cry "Victim" until you're blue in the face, or take a stab at being positive and kicking butt. We do mentoring for several kids that came from absolute shit conditions that are making a go of things. They're nobody's victim.

[paperbag_ princess]

158. pointing out a wrong is not being a victim

How else with things change unless people are called on the carpet? It is great when people can overcome and succeed and not feel sorry for themselves....everyone should do that....life is not "fair" to most people...

but the real victim mentality is letting the problem persist and passing it on to the next generation because you don't want to be called a "whiner" or a "feminazi"...or a "bitter old woman" ...or a "bra burner" or etc etc

I am not ashamed to be a feminist....somewhere down the line women stopped speaking out...I will stand up for what is right...and people can throw any accusation that they want...it doesn't change the facts.

[dmallind]

147. Wait a minute

I am in a senior managerial position. I have had women who were subordinates many times (and women who were superiors many times too). Maybe I've been missing something but what should I do when people who are not assertive enough or are too aggressive are women? Should I not tell them and thus give them no chance or incentive to improve and have a better chance at future promotions or opportunities? What should I have said when they were "too" anything when it comes down to that? I fired a woman for being too dishonest on her timecards a year or so back. I advised a woman just a couple months ago she would be a great candidate for a better job if she were not too reluctant to take on leadership roles in project management and crossfunctional groups, despite several attempts at training and opportunities to do so. Should I have let her continue to steal or just said no chance for a promotion to avoid being sexist?

The problem with statements like yours is that they devalue and discredit very real sexism by counting every criticism or even positive suggestion for improvement about a woman along with it as if they were the same. Some women, just like some men obviously, ARE too aggreesive or not assertive enough. It would only be sexist to treat those who are women and have those traits differently from men who do, which is what I would be doing if I refrained from addressing the issue with women out of fear of being labeled sexist.

BTW in my department a similarly qualified and capable woman manager is being paid more than her male counterpart - partly because of past career moves and partly because she is a better negotiator when it comes to pay decisions. Is that sexist? Why would it be if it happened to be the other way round?

[mrbluto]

166. Hmmm. Your examples are too vague.

By no means do I deny that there's gender bias in the workplace, but I'm not sure what you offer are valid examples.

When someone said "she needs more experience" and the promoted a man with less experience,

How are you measuring experience? Time? This is pretty subjective. I've worked with people who have twenty years of experience that I wouldn't hire. Why? Because it's essentially the same two years ten times over.

When things were said about them behind their back and people started treating them differently because of what they had heard, they weren't aware of it and didn't take any action to investigate what was going on or try to defuse it.

...and this never happens to males? Were the things said sexist? I have to ask considering the next two lines.

When they were told they needed to be "more assertive" or "less aggressive"...

Fine so far in this sentence - people are giving contradictory advice - that's what humans do. You know the saying about the value of free advice, right?

they didn't realize that those are two sides of of the sexism coin.

Wha? Um...how is that "two sides" of a sexist coin? Are you really saying if you mention assertiveness or aggressiveness to a female then, by definition, it's sexist?

When they heard other women being talked about as being "too" anything (as in "I suppose she's smart and all but she's too ...) they didn't realize that this was sexism and that the same kinds of things were being said about them.

Really? If one thinks and describes a woman is "too" anything, then that's sexism?

Wow. It's everywhere you look.

When I say that I mean you, SharonAnn - everywhere you look, because I think your detection gear is a little off kilter, that or you've just expressed yourself poorly in your post.

When they were paid less than men and found about it, they thought it meant they weren't as good.

Maybe they weren't as good. (We're talking at their jobs here, right? Not considering existential matters I hope.)

Maybe they didn't get the same results, or withstand the same difficulties.

Oh - you mean "Paid less for the same results withstanding the same sort of difficulties".

Did you mean "Comparable Pay"?

If you did then I'm with you.

I've worked with a lot of people and, while they're not at the top of the list, women who act as if any resistance they meet is "sexist" are pretty f*cking annoying. They're not up there with racist idiots, nor as nauseating as real chauvinists, probably not even in the top ten of "annoying types", but they aren't doing anyone's cause (except perhaps their own) any good.

I know, I know - you can correctly point out a flaw of mine, as in: "You have a list over 10 long of annoying types?"

Yes. Annoyance. It's nearly everywhere I look. My cross to bear, but I'm pretty even-handed about it.

So what was I getting at with this post?

I don't disagree that there's sexism. Just a wish for a bit more precision.

[drmeow]

117. No one ever burned a bra

That was a myth - it never happened.

[efhmc]

126. I was and am a hard core Feminist who was taking care of a

household and family during that time. Otherwise, I would have been marching with those glorious, wonderful, Feminists. I deeply appreciate them and the work they did to free us from much of the legal limitation that made us second class citizens. (Here is an example, being referred to on the documents at the closing of a house as "and wife". My husband had a name. I was an "and wife.) If I am bitter, it is because sexism is still such an ingrained part of our culture as DU proves daily.

[Dhalgren]

167. If all of these women in your life have really made the marks you claim they have,

they did not do so in a vacuum. They stood on the shoulders of women who fought for your female relatives' rights to do as they did. To dismiss the women's movement and feminists as "bra-burners" is a sign that you do not understand the women's movement in this country. Your mother, wife and sister should be ashamed of you...

[Independent-Voter]

169. The world doesn't exist in a vacuum, period. Yeah Women's Movement! Now can we get back to work and

quit the victimhood thing?

[Dhalgren]

236. "We" have never stopped working. And if you would like to start,

welcome. Standing up for an oppressed group's rights has nothing to do with "victim-hood", even though the right-wing use that meme all the time - I guess that's where you got it. But if you are really interested in working for the betterment of all Americans, it is never too late for you to start...

[MADem]

177. Because they're REPUBLICANS, most likely.

Big deal--your wife and sister are little Hasselbecks, and you want us to be happy for you?

Those "bra burning" feminists you disdain are responsible for your mother being able to KEEP her business, and get equal treatment in the marketplace.

If they're not "soft and sweet" you're nervous, is that it? It's the only reason I can see why you'd have a problem with those 'time wasting feminists'--otherwise why would you care what they do? Why would it impact you in any way?

Most men actually found those demonstrations rather interesting, for hormonal reasons, and they certainly didn't get ANGRY over them like you seem to be.

You've obviously got issues, because you're so "damn proud" that your wife and sister aren't feminists.

Threatened by feminists, is that it? Or afraid of them?

Or maybe you don't really understand the meaning of the term?

[Independent-Voter]

186. No anger here. More of a humanist myself though

And for your info, my mom has done just fine going on 40 years without resorting to the victim card. If anything, she's used whatever roadblocks in the way as motivation to be more successful.

No insecurities here, but damn if hearing people blame their "-ism" status for their failures doesn't get old. There will always be -isms, but rubbing people's noses in their ignorance by being successful is the sweetest reward of all. My wife and I (along with some loose business partners) do mentoring work with kids who come from absolute shit backgrounds. Those kids were handed a raw hand, but they sure as hell aren't playing the victim card to get ahead. It's a pleasure to see them blossom.

[MADem]

195. Feminists are the opposite of "victims." But your repeating of that erroneous theme is telling. NT

[dicknbush]

178. Because they have bought the Hillary is a Bitch line perped by the RW

Take Dick Morris for instance. The hatred that this man has for Hillary is astonishing. THis is a man who was given a chance by the Clintons to move up in the world of politics and he absolutely has nothing but vile hateful things to say about a woman who is in the arena. People like Morris are basically bottom feeders who live off the rotting flesh of others. THis post is absolutelly true the savaging of Hillary Clinton has been going on for years and all praise to her for getting inot the battle inspite of the fact that she must have known scum like Morris and alot of Obama supporters would rip her apart. She has more courage then Obama and all of his Obamanables put together.....I sure HOPE you get what you deserve. Oh I am just wondering when Michele Obama was being oh so bitchy when asked if she would support Hillary if she were the nominee wher was the vilification of her for not being gracious. If Hillary looses I guarentee she will resign graciously and courteously and then of course all the haters on here will resound with platitudes of "Oh that was so sweet...what a great person she is" BLECCCH!

[dicknbush]

179. Obamanables are seriously rude people not to mention they have

A serious superiority complex

[JVS]

2. Someone who embraces the method of triangulation and runs a filthy campaign shouldn't expect to...

be well liked. And the fact that there are people on the right wing who hate her does nothing to alleviate her shortcomings from a leftist perspective. She has earned the scorn she gets at this board.

[readmoreoften]

3. I'm well aware of her shortcomings from a leftist perspective.

I'm also aware of Obama's shortcomings from a leftist perspective. In fact, I'm aware of this entire party's shortcomings from a leftist perspective. But that doesn't mean that any scorn whatsoever is appropriate. Misogyny is not necessary. Can't you dislike her positions without attacking her gender performance? Can't you dislike her positions without totally denigrating her as a woman?

Does Alan Keyes deserve to be denigrated by racial slurs? No. Why? Because it's offensive to other African-Americans. When Clinton is denigrated it's offensive to women.

I've seen a campaign run against Hillary without all this hatred. I worked in that campaign. This is unnecessary.

Be honest with yourself, doesn't Obama triangulate? I mean...seriously If you think Obama is a leftist, then you don't know what a leftist is. Check out politicalcompass.org. There are no leftists left.

[JVS]

4. Am I to read this as an accusation of me in particular or the campaign?

"Can't you dislike her positions without attacking her gender performance? "
Because you certainly make it sound like an accusation on the individual level.

I can dislike her positions and also her personality without attacking her gender performance. But since she's acted like a grade A asshole in this primary, I really have better things to do than confront people or groups like c.u.n.t. for attacking her. Sorry, I have no outrage to spare on her behalf.

[bellasgrams]

5. She is not guilty of the accusations you throw at her.

She has not run a filthy campaign. She has run a clean campaign and even then BO hollers, 'race','race', 'not fair'. When there has been no inkling of race. She has been a lady, speaking eloquently and articulate. She is so knowledgeable you can really learn from listening. I thought Bill was the best speaker I'd ever heard but she is also good if not just as good. BO can't hold a candle to either one of them and his wife making that stupid remark about never being proud of America. Well, I guess we know why he doesn't put his hand on his heart.

[Debi]

6. Your comments about Michell Obama and Barack Obama are false and out of line

You say the Clinton campaign isn't running a filthy campaign and then finish your post with lies and smears. Disgusting.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpeale]

83. and i say they are fact & right in line

[nvme]

97. Re Your Michele Obama comment

The Qoute was "for the first time as an Adult I am REALLY proud....." Really is important to the quote because it emphasizes her additional pride in her country. when taken out of context as you did, it implies she never had pride in her country to begin with. so keep listening to fox news(I always laugh and say fair and balanced)

[juajen]

99. Both quotes are right. One speech, she put in "really", another she didn't

There all sorts of accusations about fox news editing out the really, but they didn't. She, Michelle Obama, said it both ways. The media could take their choice of what she said since she gave them the choice.

I'm really tired of hearing the media and others accused of deliberately editing her remarks, since it was Michelle who gave them two speeches.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

192. "Well, I guess we know why he doesn't put his hand on his heart."

This is some of the foolish stuff that I don't understand coming from DUers right now.

Why use a RW non-issue smear campaign talking point in an attempt to back up your argument? How does that add value to what you're attempting to convey? Every time I've seen this done - by both sides - it immediately negates any other points I may have found valuable in the post.

I'll tell you the same thing I told the RW person who emailed the smear to me. I find these tactics intellectually lazy. There are enough real, honest and valid political reasons to use to argue why Obama may not deserve to be president without using emotional material designed to evoke a knee-jerk reaction.

I read DU to not have to deal with Republicans and their childish arguments. It's sad times when this junk and the RW misogynistic junk against Hillary are being used by our own members to back up their arguments with one another.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

16. I've seen plenty of DUers look the other way while attacks were made on Obama's race.

In fact, I've seen Clinton supporters, and even Bill engage in race baiting without people batting an eye.

[juajen]

110. No, they didn't race bait. This was a loud and false way to denigrate

the Clintons. Bill Clinton had the most racially diverse cabinet ever in this country. During his presidency he was loudly touted by African Americans as being pro-African American. I will not list all of the ways they were good for African Americans. It is well known in that community. They are throwing over a friend to elect "one of their own" who, has never actually been one of their own. Interesting, but certainly not the first time that has happened.

Many of Hillary's supporters believe that Obama is being set up to get Hillary. We also believe that there are many states he would not have won without a cross-over vote from republicans. Republicans that are either not going to vote for him in the GE, or that will want a seat at the table. You know, that famous table of unity, where everyone sits around holding hands and getting along!

Even with his "mantle of inevitability" and momentum, last time I saw the numbers, she still wins the dem vote or is high up there countrywide. When did dems need republicans to elect our nominee? Will any of you wake up in time to smell the roses. You are being manipulated. But, you will not admit that or change your mind because that would mean admitting that you are wrong.

I hope the open primaries and caucuses will be addressed at the convention and for the sake of our party, if any of it's left, elminated.

Additionally, I hope HRC pulls it out, and I will support her all the way. She is one brave woman, and, this woman, is very proud of her, and thankful to the Clintons for their service to this country.

[Beacool]

137. I totally agree with you!!!!!!

The media fanned the race card fires and their so-called friend Obama stood by while both Clintons were called racists, even though he knew better. I also agree that many Republicans who voted for Obama in open primaries and caucuses are probably laughing their butt off right about now since they'll vote for their party's nominee in November.

Meantime, we threw a good candidate and an even better woman under the bus and a lot of Democrats didn't give a shit. Well, that's how I now feel about their new "darling", I too now don't give a shit who wins in November.

[cbayer]

17. Wow, I don't want to be in the group you are calling "we"

because I don't EVER want to call someone a gigantic, used douche bag.

[readmoreoften]

32. I'm not talking about you personally. If it doesn't apply, let it fly. /nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

45. I beg your pardon for knowing the word "you" to mean a different thing from "one"

The OP has clarified, but thanks for butting in.

[Maddy McCall]

52. /

Wrong place.

[f the letter]

109. i agree that a lot of Obama supporters are being ludicrous

Certainly no fewer Clinton supporters are being as ludicrous. But i honestly don't see very much of the gender slamming you describe. There is the occasional misogynist prick but i generally see attacks on her various political wrongdoings which i feel to be justified. i wish i didn't have to 'support' either of them as they are both way too far right, as you pointed out. It's nice to have someone else say that without seeing them jumped on for being a disguised freeper plant trying to destroy the party from within or some similar nonsense.

i agree the "no woman will get my vote" old guard crowd exists and occasionally speaks out, but i feel like the card is vastly overplayed by her campaign. Almost every candidate in both sides of the race could play the religion/race/gender/divorce number/old-'n-crusty/washington-insider/whatever-the-hell minority card. It's true the country has a long way to go in seriously addressing gender equality, and that voting Mormon seems to be a smaller hurdle than voting Clinton. But i really don't think that's why people are speaking out against the prospects of a Clinton nomination.. so many legitimate gripes exist that saying anything gender-based only makes you a douchebag.

[libbygurl]

213. That's one thing that continues to puzzle me - people saying that O is a liberal or leftist, even!

nt

[MADem]

196. I honestly thought you were talking about YOUR candidate!

Triangulation and a filthy campaign...it does take two to tango!

[rove karl rove]

7. great post

some of the sexism I've seen coming from the Hillary haters has been unbelievable, from both parties.

[NashVegas]

8. It's Why I Find This Thread Pretty Hilarious

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4674172

[libbygurl]

214. Ehh, double standards working there, eh? nt

[rodeodance]

9. Thanks. I like Hillary for her politics, despite her faults, which we all have.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. well said

[DemVet]

20. Indeed. n/t

[DemGa]

11. The really disgusting part, that many Obamas apparently cannot see

Barack Obama has played to these vicious attacks by labeling Hillary as "polarizing" and "divisive"; that she will "unite the opposition."

When everyone knows she has endured years of this sh**.-- and that is the cause of those perceptions.

And Mr. Obama used it against her. So it's not just the Barack Obama supporters (though they are culpable)-- this truly comes from the top down.

[rodeodance]

13. agreed

[Metric System]

18. That's a really great point. Anyone who thinks Obama's hands are clean should read your post. He's

been calling her divisive and polarizing since at least December, hardly a way to characterize a fellow Dem. It's especially perplexing coming from a man who claims to be a uniter who wants to work with Rethugs.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. you are spot on and that is what pisses me off the most too

[ProSense]

23. What BS! n/t

[Recursion]

36. Well, he hardly made it up out of nowhere

Barack Obama has played to these vicious attacks by labeling Hillary as "polarizing" and "divisive"; that she will "unite the opposition."

Maybe he has stressed that too much, but he's hardly the first person to point this out. This isn't some smear he came up with; it's a recognition of the fact that she is trying to run for President with 49% negatives nationally. It's not wrong to point this out; it's wrong to bury your head in the sand and pretend that she would not incredibly energize the GOP to vote against her.

I remember reading in Stephanopolis's book about a focus group they did early on with "real time" pos/neg responses. Things were going great until Hillary started talking, at which points the group swung hard negative. Bill Clinton said, "Oh no. They don't like her new haircut" and Carville and Stephanopolis had to hold each other down to avoid slapping Bill for being in such a state of denial.

[NMMNG]

44. Indeed

Despite the claims of many Obama supporters that he's always run a positive campaign he definitely has not. But what's done is done and it appears he's going to move on to the GE. The RW guns will be trained on him now, and they'll make Hillary's look like child's play.

[Beausoir]

78. Yes.

[Umbram]

98. Logic Impaired?

Obama's saying that Hillary is "polarizing," "divisive" or that she will "unite the opposition" has what exactly to do with sex?

Now, it's not surprising that you got a long list of people to agree with you (they'll agree with anything...) but your claim is pretty rediculous.

OP: Clinton has been attacked by the press and Obama supporters because of her sex.
Your premise: Obama himself said Hillary was polarizing, divisive, and will unite the opposition.
Your conclusion: These sexist attacks "come from the top down."

Either you are not talking about sexism at all, and are just being irrelevant by noting that campaigns point out each other's flaws OR you are claiming that polarizing, divisive, and uniting the opposition are sexist statements.

I'll absolutely agree that there is too much sexism, a.) in the press, b.) in DU, c.) in real life. That said, I agree with the OP. Even with that said, your post is either a horrible stretch, illogical, or irrelevant.

P.S. If you think that polarizing, divisive, and likely to unite the opposition are "vicious attacks," you may not want to tune into the GE. As is more likely the case, you are one of the nonobjective folk who thinks ANYTHING leveled against their candidate is vicious and ANYTHING said by their candidate is all peaches - well, you can't be helped.

[DemGa]

205. As I stated, some cannot seem to grasp the concept

But I will try once more nonetheless.

Gender related or not (and I think this is most certainly a part of the dynamic), my points are valid -- Mr. Obama has, in a clever manipulation, overtly used the EFFECTS of the vicious right-wing attacks on Hillary Clinton as his own weapon -- and he has thusly aligned himself with those attacks and the perpetrators of those attacks.

At any rate, it's a clear betrayal to ALL Democrats - cognizant of these facts, or not.

[Cameron27]

131. Yep

:thumbsup:

[hfojvt]

135. those all seem like true statements to me

It's not like I am some kind of ditto machine that is going to agree with everything Obama says, but if he says something I believe is true and I agree, you are then gonna blame him for saying it? I have seen Hillary on TV, interviewed by Katie Couric for example, saying that she is more electable. So Obama is some kind of a$$hole if he makes a case, based on things that anybody can see, for his own advantage in that regard. Women like Kathleen Sebelius and Claire McKaskill and Nancy Boyda have made the same case. So a) it's not just coming from Obama, and b) it's not just coming from men.

[txaslftist]

141. I'm sorry, but that's strategic reality.

Hillary is "polarizing" and "divisive" and will "unite the opposition".

We see this in poll after poll. Her negatives are huge.

There are a great many people who simply don't like her. I think this is a result of the Reichwing Smearbund which has been going after her for 2 decades nonstop. She's like Teddy Kennedy or Cindy Sheehan or Michael Moore, in that her negative name association is very high. I don't think it's fair the way she's been treated. I have concerns about her close alliance with Israel and her hawkishness, but other than these two issues, I think she'd be a great president, and she's much stronger on the economy than Obama.

But the reality is that her negatives are very high, and she drives some folks (especially Republican males)nuts.

I'm living in Texas and I hear Republicans who are voting for Obama. And not because of any particular substance he has, but because he's not John McCain and he's not Hillary Clinton.

And you are right that it isn't fair. But it's true.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. Gracious winners would be nice, seeing as we're all on the same side, supposedly.

I would be so if she were to win and I've nothing at all disparaging to say about Sen. Obama. Quite the contrary, I think he's just as remarkable and smart as she is.

But, I'm pretty sure there'd be plenty of BOOYAH, IN YOUR FACE, BEEYATCH posts, were he to become our GE nominee. And, gloating the likes of which will drive many DU'ers who supported Sen. Clinton, but didn't ever attack Sen. Obama, away.

I hope I'm really, really wrong.

on edit, cbayer is right, I should have mentioned it was your well written post which resonated and K & R.



:kick:

[MonkeyFunk]

15. good post

A lot of people here are in for a very rude awakening when the sights are turned on Obama.

[cbayer]

19. Really, really well done.

And people really do need to read more often, because I suspect many that responded to this didn't read any of it.

But I did, and it is excellent.

[varelse]

21. Kicked & recommended

for truth

[ProSense]

24. You mean like questioning Michelle Obama's patriotism or

Bill O'Reilly's lynching comment?

[readmoreoften]

30. No. That's not what I mean. Because O'Reilly is not a member of DU. And he doesn't support Clinton.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. Neither are the "Iron my shirt" or C.U.N.T. people.

Do you only care about this when it involves your candidate?

[pnwmom]

33. Michelle Obama will be hated by the right-wingers just as much as Hillary,

if Obama is President.

Michelle is even less of a typical First Lady than Hillary was (more independent), and more willing to state her opinions in public. I like Michelle a lot -- but watch out. In terms of hate, we ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Peregrine Took]

119. I hadn't thought about that but I think you are 100% correct. A woman who

is "out there" and speaks her mind is still absolutely despised by many, many people today - even by other women, if you can believe it, as many women take on the viewpoint of men in order to get along and go along.

[NOLALady]

128. You're right.

Strong willed, accomplished, outspoken women are threatening to some. Just as some find accomplished, assertive Black men threatening. Sad.

[CC]

160. You have that right.

In a lot of ways she is going to be the next Hillary. That or she is going to have to learn to sit down and shut up which I hope she doesn't do. I hope (and think) Michelle has the strength to deal with it but I dread seeing the right wing and sexist do to her what was/is done to Hillary.

[Chovexani]

199. I honestly think it will be worse for Michelle Obama

Because she won't just have the sexist bullshit that Hillary Clinton had to deal with, she'll have the racial shit on top of it. It's already started, just look at that Obamarosa comment that was made. A black woman who asserts herself is seen as an even bigger threat than a white woman who does so. There are a lot of nasty stereotypes out there.

It's all a mess and I don't envy her one bit. But I think if there is anyone who is strong enough to deal with it, it's Michelle Obama. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for her even if I can't stand her trifling husband.

[RandomKoolzip]

230. So in other words, she's "divisive."

Hmmmm....

[TheWraith]

25. What the hell are you talking about?

"Iron my shirt"? A 527? Never heard of any of that. As to the McCain supporter's line, as I recall McCain was practically lit on fire for not saying anything to discourage that.

I think you're exaggerating the problem. Clinton's been "beaten down" because she ran a really bad campaign.

[pnwmom]

31. A couple guys carried signs at a Hillary rally saying "Iron my shirt."

And there is an anti-Hillary 527 with the initials spelling C.U.N.T.

There has been a vast amount of misogyny directed at Hillary, from Rethugs but also from DUers, If you haven't noticed it, maybe you've been wearing blinders.

[bpeale]

85. i think you've been living in a vacuum if you never heard the IRON MY SHIRT comment

[Iceburg]

26. Thanks for penning your thoughts. I realize that you don't

see in her what we, her supporters do. (For me its about children, education, and the environment). But you certainly seem to recognize that she's one hell of a strong person to have endured this abuse for so many years. If Hillary was in it for personal gain she would've given up years ago ...its something bigger, much bigger that drives her. She may not get the ball to the end zone, but for many of us she has move the ball down the field another 10 yards.

Thanks again.

[DeepModem Mom]

27. K&R

[pnwmom]

29. You. Are. So. Right. K & R.

[amborin]

34. great post

you very accurately sum up the vicious ongoing attacks on Hillary Clinton from republicans and fellow dems--including, as some have stated, Obama supporters and Obama himself, who's piggy backed on these attacks and intensified them by trying to label Hillary 'divisive'

I will reluctantly vote for Obama in November, as he now seems the inevitable nominee

but many of his supporters scare me: their viciousness, misogyny, and ad hominum attacks on a brilliant progressive politician with a solid record of progressive accomplishments make me question their character, intelligence, and decency

I have great trepidations about Obama, only time will tell

[bpeale]

90. his supporters have turned me off completely

even if he is the nominee i will not vote for him. i will vote a write in candidate ... JOHN EDWARDS!

i don't want to hear crap about read his website. if you cannot tell me in your own words what your candidate stands for, then i will not be reading a website. you telling me what he stands for will make me WANT to read what he has to say. as it is, all i have to go by are your actions & they are vile. and i will assume obama is just as vile. the comments that come from his wife are vile also. my mama always told me YOU ARE WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. when obama lets his supporters act like you do without slapping you down publicly, then i am assuming, and rightly so, that he is all for how you act. and he will not get my vote. your actions make me trust him even less.

YOU ARE WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. remember that. doesn't matter if its true or not if thats all people see & hear.

[nvme]

100. re obama's record

Obama supports health in legislature (state) he pushed through child health care. He pushed through state Earned Income tax credits, he pushed through police video taping interrogations(as a result of the execution of innocents in IL) if you truly want to know then ask. but if your using the forum to Pooh pooh obama then cool you have that right too. (you will be called on it)

[bpeale]

106. i want information. i want to know what you know about your own candidate.

i don't want to be told LOOK IT UP AT HIS WEBSITE. that tells me that you have no idea what your candidate is about. and there are plenty of people, regular voters, who don't own a computer, and just what are you going to tell them? i want you to tell me just like you're going to be telling them. if someone on my porch told me he voted for this or that, i would have to say, but what is his position on such & such? would you be able to tell me in more than one sentence? would you be able to expound at all on his positions? if they can't, then i don't want to talk to them. don't be glib about what i'm saying. this is not about pooh pooh, this is about being able to talk intelligently to someone about your candidate without resorting to namecalling or browbeating.

[bpeale]

115. again, what is he going to do & how is he going to pay for it?

those are the kinds of questions voters will be asking. what are you going to say? or are you going to call them stupid & tell them they should get out of the party? better think about these things. you can't afford to come off as arrogant at a voters front door unless you want that door slammed firmly in your face.

i am an Edwards Democrat. i knew what my candidate was about. what he was going to do, what he was going to require, and how he was going to pay for it. i haven't seen that from Obama or Hillary. better tell your candidate, whoever they may be, to start speaking in more than sound bites. because in the end, all they're going to remember is was Fox news told them unless you have expounded at length to them about your candidate.

it is your job as a supporter to get your candidate elected. that means knowing their positions as well as you know your own. you won't get my vote or their vote when all they see and hear are vile comments from supporters about other candidates.

YOU ARE WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. don't MAKE obama an asshole in a voters eyes by your actions.

[femrap]

35. K and R...

great post. Having endured the past 7 years of this regime, we now get the opportunity to see the misogyny and stupidity of our own Party members.

I remember back in the '70's when Robin Morgan spoke in DC and the Leftie boys started yelling, 'Take it off, bitch.' Nothing has changed. In fact, it's worse. The hatred today is so much more intense. So cruel.

And it amazes me that the Media has selected the Dem candidate and everyone thinks that is AOK. WTF?

Why should I care about the Dem party? Many of its members hate women and/or can't find 2 brain cells to rub together. What's the point? I won't lift a finger to help BO get elected. My days of stupidly volunteering for a party that is filled with hatred toward people like me are over.

I don't recognize this country. And it's only going to get worse as the economy fails. Yes, We Can...become meaner, more violent, more selfish, more hateful. W changed this country...into something as mean and stupid as he is...the leader set the example and others followed. Republicans aren't the only sheep in this nation.

I never understood why people voted for Nader or other third parties. Now I do. Maybe I will support Cynthia...at least I wouldn't have to hold my nose when I vote.

Hopefully, I've got most of the crudest on Ignore already.

[LadyVT]

37. What a GREAT post. Thank you. I feel beaten on as well.

I thought, last year, 'no woman is ever going to survive this campaign.' Having taught Psychology of Women to women and men for several years at a University (before they stopped offering it, in this unenlightened day and age), I showed a biography of Hillary to my class in 1993. We were all (including me) so astonished at what she had accomplished by even that time, and at so many of her friends and colleagues hoping she would run for President instead of Bill. It didn't even occur to us then that a woman could seriously run for the Presidency.

I've been sad for a couple of weeks, now, with that, and with reading the posts on here. It is just heartbreaking--all the young men and women who express the hate-filled language of the right-wing Republicans, here, and do so with apparent glee and self-righteousness. As if this means something complimentary about them.

Two weeks ago, I asked my class of 450 undergrads in a lecture on gender whether they'd done any research on the election at all. A dozen or so raised their hands. We've had our primary, and I asked how many voted. 400. 382 completely unaware students, having done absolutely no research whatsoever, voted in the primary. They said they found reading about the candidate's positions boring. And THEN! "I'd never vote for Hillary! She is NOT a beautiful woman!" "Obama's HOT!"

This is what we've come to?

[femrap]

41. I am taking this primary fiasco

very hard. W has had seven years to 'change' this country. The leader sets the example and the citizens follow it. We meaner, uglier, more violent, more hateful, more stupid than ever. W has left his imprint on this country.

Sometimes, I just want to move to another country....or at least get off the gird in a small community with other truly Progressive Lefties.

[peacetalksforall]

77. I would like to join you.

[readmoreoften]

43. Yes, teaching undergrads will help stop the strange idea of 'political youth wisdom'

And, yes, it's what we've come to.

[Tarc]

76. Ugh. Seriously?

The Obama base seems to be about as vapid as those who said they voted for Jimmy Carter because he had a nice smile.

[Peregrine Took]

123. That is pathetic, thanks for your post. Ironically, HRC is VERY attractive

as I was only about 5 ft away from her over the weekend and got a good look at her. She's totally lovely but people seem to want to believe that she is a tired old bitchy hag, so be it.

I really think that middle aged (and older) women have got it very rough in today's world, especially in the labor market.

I used to work in a library, along with 3 other middle aged women, and our director let it be known (at a staff meeting that we weren't supposed to know about) that he wanted to get rid of all the "gray hairs" which he did. A year after he started there - we were all gone. He wanted youth and diversity so all the "old" white women were dumped, even though we were very well liked by the students.

[LadyVT]

207. Yes, it is so discouraging..and I agree, she's beautiful!

[cornermouse]

202. Apparently that is what we've come to.

Remember how many people voted for Bush (the silver spoon, fake cowboy that doesn't ride horses, set his minions on a racist smear against McCain and then denied all knowledge of it) because they thought he was a regular guy that they could have a beer with?

So yes, this is what we have come to.

[LittleBlue]

38. Live by the sword, die by it

Emphasize feminity, get destroyed by it. Seems like poetic justice.

If she hadn't emphasized the "stick together women" theme, I'd be disgusted.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

40. You seem to be a fan of destruction. And living and dying by the sword.

Death and destruction, yay, right?

[readmoreoften]

42. How does she "emphasize femininity"? What are her alternatives? Female masculinity?

Has Obama emphasized his African-American heritage? Of course he has, because if he didn't address it, it'd be ludicrous. Same for Clinton. She's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't as far as this is concerned.

[LadyVT]

46. Yes, I agree... and yes, female masculinity...

U.S. culture is rated as one of the top most gender rigid societies in the Western world. She expresses her masculinity when illustrating her action-oriented plans, but is labelled a "nutcracking" b*@tch. She expresses her femininity when talking about populations she cares about, and is labelled "weak" and "manipulative."

It's going to be a long, long time before we have any woman President in this country. But I am hopeful for Canada.

[LadyVT]

47. And really, readmoreoften, thank you again for your post...after I posted back,

I went into the bathtub and cried my eyes out.

Your candidate is lucky to have supporters like you.

[NMMNG]

49. PM me if you could

I need your input on something. :hi:

[readmoreoften]

51. Thanks! Tell that to my candidate who is no longer a candidate.

I supported both DK and Edwards. I don't know who I'm voting for now. I think I'm voting Edwards still to register my protest vote.

[nvme]

104. Re Protest vote

Many people voted Nader in protest in 2000. Those votes affected that election. We know the result so consider the downside.

[readmoreoften]

222. It's a primary. I can protest vote in a primary without letting the Republicans win.

If you can't stomach either of the candidates the only thing left to do is protest.

[LadyVT]

228. Yeah, he has integrity and empathy

[MrsBrady]

48. unfortunately, i think you are right n/t

[VotesForWomen]

50. yep; it's clearly considered a lot 'cooler' to vote for a black man for prez, than for a woman of an

any color.

[Finite]

93. ..as opposed

to voting for Obama or Clinton on the basis of their policies?

Obama and Clinton aren't so different really, they're both millionaires!

[Maddy McCall]

53. excellent post.

K/R'd earlier today. Very timely and more should read it.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. Terrific post, thank you.

Edwards was my choice. I'm not a Hillary fan, nor am I an Obama fan even though I'm leaning toward him in the primary now. Having said that I think they're both electable and would make a better POTUS than McCain hands down.

I don't get the personal viciousness toward Hillary either. I don't like things she's done as a politician enough not to hand her my vote in the primary, but I'll defend her as a strong woman and a human being any day. Some of the offensive things I've seen said are way beyond an acceptable level of political dislike. They're misogynistic RW smear tactics. It's insane. To be fair I've also seen RW smears used in regards to Obama, but not to the same extent and they're usually not being spread by the longtime DUers.

The Jerry Springer Show reference was perfect, but I'd take it a step further. Some not only learned their civic duty there but also their social interaction skills. Try to find a thread without petty baiting and childish antics all throughout. You can't. That's the normal tone of the discourse now.

Thank you your intelligent and rational words.

[Peregrine Took]

114. Excellent comments. DId you ever ask a Hillary hater, WHY they hate her so

much - they can't really answer because its not rational.

I heard one jackass on Chicago radio say, when asked that question by his partner, that he hated her because she rode on Air Force 1 while running for the Senate from New York. Wasn't she still First Lady at that time and entitled,for security reasons if nothing else, to fly on AF1? Especially with the viciousness that went her way while they were in the White House.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

194. That's a good question to ask people.

I've been asking that of Republicans for a while now. I've yet to get a good answer based on her politics. Every answer has been something to do with her on a personal level. I've asked a few Democrats why they're not planning to support her and some had valid political reasons. Others either gave me the deer in the headlights look followed by some mumbling or began spouting the same foolishness that I'd been hearing out of the mouths of the Republicans. Just how messed up is that?

[dailykoff]

56. "Iron my shirt" was a clinton campaign stunt,

just like the tears and the handshake, and the other stuff is (a) news to me and (b) petty beyond belief. If this is what you're voting on you really shouldn't be voting.

[Skittles]

57. Exhibit # 10,234

:o

[leftynyc]

62. Those pigs were from a right

wing radio station. But you keep up with your ignorant lies. Ignorant people like you have no business telling others who should and should not be voting.

[judaspriestess]

181. and how do you know if the women "fainting" at what is it 4 or 5 rallies

for Obama wasn't a stunt? just asking

why is Clinton a stunt but Obama is incapable of it?

[dailykoff]

225. Because CNN didn't put it in 24/7 rotation for a week

at least not that I know of.

[Perry Logan]

58. All anti-Clinton posts are lies, but they just keep repeating them. This has been my experience.

[theHandpuppet]

59. Thanks very much for your OP, readmoreoften

It is much appreciated.

:hi:

[Independent-Voter]

60. HRC is doing a fine job of digging her own hole. Whining about the press is just sour grapes

[leftynyc]

63. You can dislike Hillary and

still see how unfair the press has been to her. Or maybe you can't - that would be your problem, not hers.

[Independent-Voter]

64. She's lost 10 states by at least 17% and is still considered "viable". Any other candidate would

have been laughed out of town by now. See also:Huckabee

If anything, she's getting a free pass by the press based soley on her name.

[leftynyc]

66. She's behind by 100 delegates with

around 800 still to go. Perhaps we should not play the fourth quarter of any basketball game when one team is up 20. Makes as much sense as your logic. Free pass by the press?!! Now I know you're not in the world of reality.

[Independent-Voter]

68. Reality must not suit you well. HRC is going to need 35% swings in Texas, Ohio, an PA

That's just not going to happen. Sorry to be the voice of reality, but really, HRC doesn't have a prayer in hell of winning the nomination.

You're always welcome to put your money where your mouth is though. I've won over 8K this season off Hillary's implosion via Intrade.

[leftynyc]

69. This thread is about

her treatment here and in the press. You, obviously don't have any problem with that (wonder why that is....actually I don't wonder at all). Just because you don't like her you seem to be okay with her treatment. Can't wait to see your reaction and obvious hypocrisy when the press turns on Senator Obama.

[Independent-Voter]

71. I'm fully aware of what the thread is about, I just don't by the argument based on reality

Face it - Hillary's just doesn't come off as a likable person. That's just the facts. That the press reports that she's getting her ass handed to her in every single election since Super Tuesday is just part of their job.

Kindly show some evidence of some diabolical conspiracy theory of hundreds of press offices being in cahoots against her and I'll shut up, but otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

[leftynyc]

72. Sorry - I have no inclinination

to prove anything to you. I don't care what you think. The evidence is there for anyone looking for it (try Media Matters for starters)- you are obviously fine with the press treatment of her. Many are not. We're all entitled to feel the way we feel.

[nvme]

113. "when the press turns on obama"

They will because politics is a full contact sport, hopefully(no pun intended) he will deal with it better than Clinton. Maybe her Imploding campaign is the sign that as POTUS her agenda might do the same. If it isnt up to the task now wait to 09'. So better loose now than the GE. The attacks will only get worse if she becomes nominee. Thats a fact.

[Independent-Voter]

170. You're right on time with that assessment, IMO. November is way off, & Obama better be able to deal

HRC sure as hell imploded. Let's see what Obama can do.

[readmoreoften]

223. I'm not "whining about the press", Dear Close Reader.

I'm stating that it is unacceptable to excuse sexual or gender biased attacks against a candidate whether her campaign is poorly run or not. Those on DU who excuse or laugh at 527 anti-Hillary campaign groups called CUNT and wouldn't except one against Lieberman called K*** or one against Obama called N***** insult not only Clinton, but other Democrats, and the wives, daughters, grandmothers, and girlfriends of Democrats.

If it's so easy to attack Clinton's campaign--and I think it is--then there is no excuse for calling her a cunt, a bitch, or a dyke and there is no excuse for laughing along with those who do.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. K&R!

:applause:

[Pooka Fey]

65. The woman-bashing in this campaign makes me ill. K&R

[Prism]

67. What a strange line that is

"Clinton has simply not done anything, really, to deserve the hate you heap onto her. Sure, she voted for a war that killed millions . . ."

That line struck me a bit. "Sure, she voted for violence that's killing millions. But geez, do you have to be so mean to her?"

That's not really an indictment of the OP as much as it is American psychology and our current political system. Vote for a war, get a few million killed here and there, but really, don't be an asshole to the politician. That's just uncalled for.

We're in a weird place as a culture. And I do mean all of us. Democrats, Republicans, Obama supporters, Clinton supporters. That lines like that are said in earnest by people of many different ideologies and politics. That we have the luxury to say something like that.

Just a little eepy.

Sorry for the non-sequitur to your main point.

[peacetalksforall]

73. Before even reading the replies. I will congratulate you. Well said. Deserved.

I was an obsessive defender of the Clintons during the 90's and though I'm not going to vote for her, I will still stand up and defend her on many of the things she is attacked for. Yes, it's a bad day in DemLand when Dems come off worse than Repbulicans did in the 90's and now. It's sad to know that there are some people who could easily be Republicans for the vile stuff coming out of them. When it comes from an obvious Obama supporter, it makes me doubt what people are seeing in Obama that they think it helps him. I like him less. I could like him more if his supporters were adults.

There are plenty of us out here who wanted Gore or Feingold or Kucinich and were settling for Edwards.

Supporters of both are turning me off and I would be of more use if I could join them. But join them? Show me the Obama team where the adults are.

I approve your post and am glad you stood up and said it.

[Lerkfish]

74. are you talking about the press, or DU?

your headline doesn't match your post.


If you reallymeant the press, I would say of course its easier than ever for the press to humilate ANYONE. That's the direct result of media ownership in a smaller and smaller list of rich owners. Used to be in this country every decent sized city would have AT LEAST two papers, who usually spoke on OPPOSING sides of the issues. What we have now is a news cartel who picks and chooses whom they laud and whom they target.

If you meant DU, I would change your headline, DU is not the press.

[bpeale]

79. thanks so much for this! great rant! K&R

[Bad Thoughts]

80. Pelosi, Boxer, and Rice seem to do ok n/t

[LostinVA]

92. Since when?

Neither in the MSM or on here -- espcially Pelosi.

[Bad Thoughts]

127. Press was rather harsh on Pelosi

... leading up to the congressional takeover, and the conservatives spared little misogyny in explaining the implications of a Pelosi-led House. Rather than taking Clinton as a symbol of women in politics, you should take a look at all political women, especially how effectively they deal with the media.

[mrbluto]

168. Taking impeachment "off the table" didn't thrill me.

Seriously - what has this congress done except staunch the geyser a bit.

No - not even close to stop the bleeding from the damage the Bush admin has caused.

This Democratic congress merely stopped it from being a decorative fountain of our civil liberties, world esteem, and economic fairness going down the drain.

...and she says "impeachment is off the table"?

My disenchantment with Pelosi has nothing to do with her being a woman.

[xmas74]

165. Pelosi is beaten up on DU

nearly every time she has a thought pop in her head.

Sweetie, we've talked for a long time on here. You can guess my head is ready to explode from all the shit on DU. (I'm saying it to you because you've read it too.)

I really wonder if there is a place for women in our party anymore.

[Jamastiene]

91. Wow, well said. n/t

[Taverner]

94. I had heard the "beat the bitch" comment but hadn't heard of 527 called C.U.N.T

I looked it up - just for the record that was a GOP org, not an Obama one.

But we should be more outraged - you're right.

[Mushroom]

95. Great Post!

Loved the Springer line.

Every time I read the moral outrage at Senator Clinton's IWR vote, I think of Eve and the apple and the accusations of propensity for evil. It's amazing how one woman, who is relentlessly reminded that she is just a second class citizen, who has made no real mark in the world, wields such power. And I'm still waiting for the party to vote their nays on the War on Women so they have at least one wobbly leg to stand on in their condemnation of a one woman war monger. If they feel so strongly about her war vote, then WTH do they think of her non-sermonizing pro-choice stance. Hey murder is murder and evil is evil. Across the board morality just like we expect from prolifers.

[robbedvoter]

105. Excellent! The love Schuster got here for his comment brought it all in the open

for me - not that I wasn't aware of it before - due to the many "tears" threads...

[mtnsnake]

107. Thanks for one of the most refreshing and best posts in recent times

[Peregrine Took]

112. Very good observations. I'm amazed by the sexism and ageism that is

rampant in our "modern" world.

[tandot]

116. Thanks for posting this, readmoreoften. I am so tired of that crap. K & R

Reading through the replies, I was able to put one more idiot on my ignore list.

[Reterr]

118. Great post-gets to the heart of the stuff I have felt very uncomfy with.eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. "Makes me feel like some of you feel the same way, like you're snickering under your breath."

They call this paranoia. It's not good.

I'm a Hillary supporter, but for heavens sake! Sometimes the hyperventilators make it hard.

News flash: the bad guys (AND gals) will use every bit of vitriol that they can dredge out of their tortured little souls to attack whomever is our nominee.

It is, at best, counterproductive to heap all that abuse on DU'ers for what should be wholly expected from the Michelle Malkin brigade.

[Pamela Troy]

187. Counterproductive? On the contrary --

When I see people presumably on "my side" using the same disgusting tactics as the opposition, I'm going to jump on it with both feet.

Double standards disgust me.

[cooolandrew]

121. There have been simiar attacks racially on Barack. Our solution over get mad is stop viewing ...

...The media are pigs in more ways than one as soon as America tunes them out tillthey behave the faster they change. If we turn them off and dont buy their press they will die off that is the solution, than to keep them going. Also to convince other not to watch too. I never complain when I get bad service I just damage their custom by telling as many people I can not to frequent their businesses.

Although I exclude Olberman nova m radio and head on radio from this equation. And other true liberal stations.

[From The Left]

124. HRC Voted for the Iraq War & the USA Patriot Act

I don't care what sex organs she has 'tween her legs. It's her voting record and policy positions that drive me nutz. I feel the same about her senatorial twin brother, Joe Lieberman.

[Deep13]

151. Frankly, 90+% of the Patriot Act is just ordinary law enforcement...

...that gives the FBI the same flexibility that state officials already have. I would have voted for it too if it was that or nothing. With the Rs incharge it was that or nothing. A number of D. senators lost their seats including Max Cleland because he was critical of US aggression. In the end, an elected official has to do what her state wants.

[AtomicKitten]

125. It probably never occurred to you to look further, but it's her voting record and policies at issue.

[Reterr]

129. I don't think the OP addresses people who have a problems with either of those

At least that is not my reading of it. The OP said they are not a HRC supporter-this isn't some sort of black and white Hillary bad/Obama good deal for many of us. I don't see them being all that different on substantive issues.

I think the OP's point was that if you criticized her for her policies and issues alone many wouldn't have a problem. It is when her appearance/her relationship with Bill/her figure etc. etc. are brought in that it triggers my gag reflex.

Did you read the part where the OP said they weren't supporting Hillary?

[AtomicKitten]

130. Do you read anywhere in my post that even mentions the OP's choice of candidate?

My point is that the reason Clinton is having difficulties is not because of her gender. It is because of her voting record and policies and the chaotic, nasty way she is running her campaign. I have little patience with the immediate, almost kneejerk response of crying "sexism" when the real problem Clinton is having is with her record, policies, and campaign.

[Myrina]

183. ... this coming from someone who previously called an

... 'non-supporter' of HRC a 'propagandist'??

Nice to see you've let a dose of reality set in.

[AtomicKitten]

200. I have always found over-exaggerated rhetoric to be propaganda.

The truth of issues is infinitely more persuasive, and I think that holds true regardless of whom you support. And, yes, you are right, I have had a change of heart regarding the Clintons, long overdue I think after two decades of blind support on my part.

[readmoreoften]

224. What's HILARIOUS is that in 2006 you attacked me because I wouldn't vote for Clinton!

You just couldn't stand that I wouldn't vote for Clinton in the NY primaries in 2006. You insinuated that I was a green and a traitor (even though I was just voting for a rival Democrat in my own primary.)

Now you're as obsessive and vindictive about Obama as you were about Clinton. So you're basically just a nasty, belligerent person who foams at the mouth when people don't follow your latest trend.

You criticizing me for protecting Clinton. Now that's rich...

Come to think of it, when did I take you off ignore? Back onto ignore you go.

[Reterr]

237. LOL-why am I not surprised to hear this readmoreoften?

That is exactly what I would have expected...

[AtomicKitten]

238. I realize it's disappointing that your candidate of choice didn't make the cut.

But YOUR foaming at them mouth isn't augmenting your argument, whatever the hell that is since you are all over the map acting out your rage. You need a moment of Zen.

[Reterr]

239. So you never were belligerent and nasty with her for not supporting the Clintons back then?

:shrug:
She just made that stuff up right? So it isn't that you talk down to and insult everyone who is ambivalent about your candidate for the day or anything right?

[Peregrine Took]

132. "Yet Hillary, a physically unprepossessing lady on the far side of middle age"

- obnoxious, ageist and sexist quote from R. Emmett Tyrell, Jr, a right winger, in some fercoctah article he wrote recently.

What do her looks or her age have to do with anything?

[Unbowed]

133. There is both sexism and racism in this country.

It will be a part of this election, whether consciously or not.

My aunt and her husband do not consider themselves racists. And on a conscious level they are not. But they are in their early sixties and they are now voting for Hillary Clinton. Last year, they were very anti-Hillary and said she'd never get the nomination. However, when it came down to Obama or Clinton, guess who they voted for? Clinton. Recently, they have said a lot of things about Omama that were incorrect. We discussed the issues and they were surprised they agreed with Obama's positions more than with Clinton's. Well, the last thing my aunt said (I think this was the real motive behind her choice) was "America will never vote for a black man." America or just older Americans who still have an ingrained resistance to change and a subconscious prejudice?

I've also had to think long and hard about the issue of gender. Men (under 60) are voting for Obama in amazing numbers. Race appears to be less a factor among under 60 men. There are a lot of cultural embraces of African Americans in our country, especially among the younger generation. We are becoming a society of mixed races and cultures. Slowly, racism is starting to erode in our society. The same inroads have not been made in sexism.

There are more woman in positions of power than ever before, but most of them got there by playing the "boy's game" with the boys and by the boy's rules. And they had to be extremely good at it, better than if they had been born with male chromosomes.

Racial jokes are considered bad taste. You rarely hear them anymore. And if you do, people don't laugh. But jokes about gender still come out whenever a group of males get together. There are many races but only two genders and there is an "us against them" mentality existing in the American male, if only on a subconscious level. Women have broken down barriers in recent years, they have been demanding equal treatment in the workplace, in the family and in the bedroom. This is a threat to many males and there is a backlash. Many of my friends veil a low-grade misogyny that keeps them in a constant state of agitation with their girlfriends and wives.

I think we all have some prejudice in us. It's too easy to line up on one side or another.

I'm old enough that I wince whenever anyone attacks a woman. That's not gentlemanly. But feeling that way reveals a kind of prejudice in itself.

I'm not partial to Cindy McCain from what I've seen and read, but I don't care for attacks on a woman's appearance. It reminds me too much of when John McCain attacked Chelsea Clinton. Woman, more than men, have been and still are, judged by how they look. True, there are attacks on John McCain on his appearance, but in his case, he's earned the turn-about after his comments about Chelsea.

[niyad]

134. thank you. so many on these boards deny the virulent sexism of the coverage of HRC--and deny their

own sexism as well. no MALE politician whose adult offspring work on his campaign has EVER been accused of "pimping (them) out"

the "iron my shirt" comment was reprehensible, as was obama's "when she feels down, she attacks" crap.

thank you again, and thanks to the few others on these boards who recognize, and name, some of the treatment she is getting.

k & r

[Beacool]

163. You forgot the key word:

"Periodically" when she feels bad, she attacks.......

The arrogant jerk!!!!


:mad:

[calico1]

136. Great post! K&R n/t

[YDogg]

138. I find your use of the word "shebang" sexist.

:rofl:

Just kiddin'. Excellent post, BTW.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. Ask Hillary Clinton.

Looks like she's going after her opponent's wife.

[Tom Joad]

140. all the IWR supporters disgust me equally. I think Hillary should be

cleaning toilets next to Kerry and lieberman and Reid. the only jobs they are worthy of.
it hasn't anything to do with gender, it has to do with supporting policies that are destroying the earth, and were clearly illegal.

[JVS]

149. well said

[BrklynLiberal]

142. Well said.

[tblue37]

143. A very thoughtful post. n/t

[JAbuchan08]

144. The C.U.N.T. thing was and is disgusting,

but in such poor taste that it hardly needs to be repudiated except as a sop to the Clinton campaign.

The "iron my shirt" comment was similarly unimportant. It was staged as a radio stunt and was not done in earnest or out of hate, but again it recieves more attention due to Hillary's whining than it would have on it's own merits.

In other words the sexism surrounding the Hillary campaign recieves far more negative than positive attention, because Hillary is more than happy to bring it more attention than it would have recieved to benefit herself. The same goes for unfair questions at the debates, and unfair treatment in the media.

The focus on unfairness towards Hillary detracts from the fact that fairly treated Hillary still leaves much to be desired.
Put as succinctly as I can the oversensitivity of Hillary and her supporters has a "cry wolf" quality.

[efhmc]

159. Interesting comment, but I think part of the sexism point is

missed. If these events were done in a racist way, would you think they should just be ignored? Substitute racist words or comments for these things and see how you think they would fly. These sexist comments and debate questions are done to show that being a woman on the campaign trail is something to
be belittled and demeaned. The Clinton's campaign reaction to these events are another matter.

[aintitfunny]

145. Well Said, thanks (eom)

I also am not a Hillary supporter, I voted for Obama in the primary since Edwards left the race.

[alarimer]

148. I suspect that the sexism goes beyond Hillary Clinton.

I know the right has ALWAYS gone after her with the most vile crap imaginable. But I think sexism runs so deep in our society that this would happen to any woman who decided to run for President. Especially one that had more than an snowball's chance of winning. I hear the most sexist crap every single day- in the media, from people I work with, from random strangers. Jokes about women drivers, to name just one thing.

People ignore me and talk to my (male) coworkers every single day. That's not including sexual harassment that is a routine feature of women in mostly male-dominated professions.

We are a deeply sexist society. Hillary is a convenient target but it would happen to any outspoken women, running for President or not.

We need to just grow up and stop allowing the sexist pigs to set the debate.

[Deep13]

150. Yup, pretty much.

On a personal level, she can't do anything right. She's either a weak woman or a total bitch. I heard on the radio that R's hate her just because. One guy said she is "grating." I think a good part of that is annoyance over a strong woman telling men what to do. Add to that her views of gun control and the symbolic emasculation is complete. We really are not ready for a woman president. In fact, I don't think American women are ready for it.

O has run an excellent primary campaign. I can only hope that translates into GE victory against an opponent who has no reason to treat him with kid gloves. Since only good campaigners win in November, I don't think there is necessarily a correlation between good campaign planning and good management while in office. I hope he surprises me, but I doubt it.

Please note that while I talk of candidates HC, JE, MH, McC, JB, RG and DK, I have refrained from calling Obama "BO" as a courtesy.

[Alamom]

154. Well said and thank you. rec. nm

[Wetzelbill]

155. Sexism is so rampant that it's accepted

We don't even realize we do it, it's so ingrained in our society. From language, to images, etc. Look around, study feminist literature, open your eyes everybody. It's not a pretty picture. I was abhorred at my sexist tendencies, and I was always a progressive. I was always a pretty nice guy too. But sexism is so rampant just about every man is somewhat sexist. And many women are taught that feminism and other ways to empower themselves are negative and pejorative terms and lifestyles. Just like how being "liberal" was hijacked to be a negative, pejorative term and lifestyle. Men have always defined femininity and then used that harsh definition to keep women in place. Hillary does not fit in that definition and it freaks men out. Witness Chris Matthews's attacks on her. Or watch how often instances like the OP outlined are used against her. Iron my shirt? In today's day and age? That type of bullshit has to go.

[libodem]

156. Before Hillary even formally announced

I was dreading the shit-storm that was going to befall her. Oddly I wanedt to protect her, spare her, shield her, by hoping she would stay out of the race. The Clinton haters are vehement, vile, and vindictive. And that's just on the left. I hate to see a fellow woman crushed, abused, and tormented, with the mean-spirited attacks, that I knew were coming from the get go. I can't stand the DLC policies. I don't think standing right of center has made our gal any more palatable to the Rashy Limpdicks of the right. She's in no-womans-land. She is so strong, talented, and smart. It's worse to see someone of such grand stature take a tumble than someone who is already close to the ground. God, save the First Lady!

[superkia]

157. Also remember that the government and the media have us all...

living in a politically correct world, where no matter what is said or how it is said, it has to be hatred and against someone or something. they have successfully brainwashed us to a point where no matter what, we the citizens will be divided and fighting each other over something. If someone doesnt like Clinton, they are sexist, if they dont like Obama, they are racist, I am so sick of this ignorance by those who continue to be lead by people that are against them. Wake up!

If they keep the people divided, they can do anything they want and we will never be able to stand against what they may be doing to us all. Yes there is a problem with these issues but its a shame that more people don't realize that we are being divided over every issue there could possibly be and the actual issues are being exploited rather than rectified. Its the same reason they separate certain issues like abortion to be either a democrat issue or a republican issue, its just a way to keep we the people against each other as they rape our country and our children's futures. I don't believe they will ever make abortion illegal because it is one of the staples that too many Americans would stand up and fight for and they cant have an American public actually standing up to them for any reason.

As the elite destroy our lives, we continue to fight each other because they want us to. We the people will never move forward on any of these extremely important issues as long as they continue to throw gasoline on the situation and we continue to light the fire. Its not the corruption killing our future, its our enabling them to do so that is doing it. We the people are at fault for being dumbed down and controlled and if we continue this constant bickering instead of creating solutions, our country will continue on its downward spiral.

[Cameron27]

161. Nicely said,

I had to come back to recommend. :-)

[tavalon]

162. I think the only time I got mad at her as a woman was when she seemed to be implying

that I would vote for her because we have the same plumbing. I was an Edwards supporter and when that no longer became viable I was left with a polarizing candidate and one that I doubted would fight well enough. Notice, I didn't say, nor do I care, that one was a woman and one a black man. If we could morph those two candidates and then shove them to the left, I would be in heaven.

Yes, misogyny and femophobia is alive and well in the new century. Same as the old century and the centuries before it. Humans have been scared of women for ages and have therefore tried viciously to keep us in "our place". As well, we've been encouraged to look at our only assets as being youth and beauty (boy, am I glad I gave up TV and those stupid, stupid, women's magazine!).As an uppity woman who is currently being treated poorly at work for suggesting that workers should have rights, I've had the bitch label leveled at me and so many other subtle digs. It's pretty amazing really. Norma Fucking Rae weird, ya know. I hope I know the right time to get up on the desk with the Union sign.

[AGirl]

173. "that I would vote for her because we have the same plumbing"

no. She didn't imply that.

[smoogatz]

171. Obama supporters outraged, but not outraged enough

to suit some people, anyway, especially those who present themselves as authorities on the proper pitch of liberal/progressive outrage in any given situation. Have Hillary supporters been sufficiently outraged about rightwing racist attacks on Obama? Has the OP?

[MADem]

174. "First, they came for the women in politics. But because I was not one, I said nothing..."

I agree wholehearted with the sentiments you express. Well said.

[Al Cleveland]

176. Racism???

It is amazing to hear people call Bill Clinton as racism and
not being fair and playing too hard! If he is racist the
entire white race must hate blacks because he sure is to the
left of most white people I know.  It is just as stupid to
vote for someone because of their race or gender as it is to
vote against someone for those reasons.  Oh and by the way, we
live in a country that is full of stupid people.  Please note
we elected Bush Jr twice.  

[dicknbush]

182. Amen to that and by the way I would love to ake a poll of all these Obamanables and ask.

Did you vote in the last election 2004. THey seem to be coming out of the workd work and why if they are so committed to Justice did they not come out and vote the War Criminal Bush out of Office in 2004? Just wondering!

[dicknbush]

180. Obamanables is what I call them...

I will be sitting out this Presidential election if Obama wins. If I want pie in the sky I go to Church.

[Puckster]

184. Misogyny is still A-OK with most people.

Racist comments will get you bounced off the air, (Imus, hopefully O'Reilly) but it's still hysterically funny to trash women.

[ExPatLeftist]

185. "Where's the outrage?"?!?!

I think many people are outraged out.

And many more should be.

When I heard about some of the examples of sexism that you mentioned, I pretty much thought, "Wow, another asshole" and got on with my life.

I live according to my principles. Every single other person on the planet has different ones, or does not live according to their own, so be it.

I agree that sexism is still strong in the US, as is racism, and this is often ignored.

My living against this and taking meaningful action when I can may perhaps have some tiny impact.

Outrage will not, nor will it help me in any way.

[SunnyDays]

189. Well said.

And Obama sure doesn't offer solace with his "claws" remarks and his "periodically down" nonsense....I didn't vote for HRC in our primary either (nor Obama), but I'm feeling much more in her camp lately, not only because of the crap, but because of her basic smarts.

Yoko Ono once said, "Woman is the nigger of the world." and I think she was right....even today.

[HeraldSquare212]

190. Didn't HRC tell Edwards, "Just stand there and look pretty," right in the Senate?

I agree with the OP, but Clinton's found occassion to make use of the same type of slam.

[Chovexani]

193. I agree with you 100%.

Too bad it will fall on deaf ears.

[Joey Liberal]

197. Hillary should concede n/t

[jillan]

198. Joan Walsh was getting into this a little bit yesterday on Hardball.

She said the question the media needs to be asking is why men won't vote for Hillary?

She was saying that no one had a problem talking about people not voting for Obama because he is African American, but no one will talk about people who won't vote for Hillary because she is a woman.

Is sexism worse than racism in America? I never believed that until now.

[CyberPieHole]

201. EXCELLENT EXCELLENT Post. Thanks for sharing this with us.

:kick: and recommend

[From The Left]

203. If You Can't Take the Heat

Get out of the kitchen. Women don't get a "Pass" in the modern world. It ain't the 1950's, dear.

[Peregrine Took]

217. No one is asking for a "pass." We just want her treated as the other

candidates have been treated in that they analyze their record, their history, biographical information, etc. - NOT snarky comments on their age and/or appearance.

You don't think all the Hillary hated that's been going on for years, including all the moronic email "forwards" we all get is a tad odd?

[dbmk]

206. hmmm

Being from Europe I have not witnessed firsthand, or prob even secondhand the stuff that Hillary has been subjected to. Some of it has still managed to seep through though.
I think a lot of it has to do with being married to the president. If you use that platform a lot of people will see you as butting in on stuff that you should stay out of, because you are not the elected one at that table. And in Hillarys case it was a bit more than butting in. and nothing wrong with that. It will just annoy a lot of people. Should a woman some day be elected president and her husband be very active in the politics - I am pretty sure he will face some fire too. But being a woman prob didn't help. I will give you that.
There is no discounting the fact that there is still a bit to go, before we have equal treatment of women and men (me being the latter btw.).

But we are hopefully not going to achieve it by systematically labeling all references to sex as sexist. And don't tell me women don't make jokes about men, when they are alone?

In this particular case, I am somewhat convinced that a lot of stuff is being lumped in under sexism, that is in fact just references to the fact that Hillary dropped the ball badly and as a result has gotten somewhat desperate and petty (really, take a look again at what has been put forward from the Clinton campaign as talking points on Obama. Does it get less irrelevant?).

Right now she has the image of someone who f.... up bad. She acted like she was certain to win...and well she didn't. Tell me the press would not be giving a hard time to anyone that did the same. Be it politics, sports or business. Man or woman.

That being said, there are of course idiots everywhere - more on one side of the political spectrum than the other though - who will make this about her sex and their idea of it being of less inherent value. But I really don't see it here, in the magnitude that I see it portrayed in the OP.
Yes, she is getting beat on. But more than any other candidate would be in the same situation? Or in wildly dierrent tones and styles? I think not.

You can devalue a woman without devaluing women. In this Hillary is seen as a representative by many women though (which in it self is a bit problematic from a pure theoretical perspective in terms of sexism) and as a result attacks are taken in by a lot of people it was never directed at. For reasons they was never directed for.

What am I trying to say? Do I think you are overstating the problem of sexism? No. Do I think you are in this specific case putting too little difference between comments on performance and comments on their sex? Yes.

[dbmk]

212. Addendum

Let me add to the above and say that I was actually, as sexist as it was, looking forward to the possibility of a female president of the United States, before the primaries started. And I found Hillary to be absolutely competent for the job.
But Obama, and the resulting campaigns, changed my perspective. Not on her competence. But on who I thought the right choice would be.

[TheFarseer]

210. No outrage over "Iron my Shirt" ?!?!

How do you know those were pro-Clinton people trying to drum up support from women.

[libbygurl]

211. Omigod, this actually moved me. Thank you for expressing what I've kept...

...hidden away all these past months. The mountain of resentment about the atrocious, sexist treatment of HRC in the press and on DU has been building slowly inside me, and I just tried to ignore all the pernicious, uncalled-for attacks on her. Now, reading about all those things you mention here made me realise why I've been so angry about this particular primary season.

Coming from a non-HRC supporter, this post will garner more credibility, because no one listens anymore to HRC supporters here when they bring up these completely Neanderthal attacks upon her.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for your rare fair-mindedness in times like this. You've restored what little faith I still have in a few members of DU.

:toast: :hi: :yourock: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[ExtraGriz]

216. hate and sexism is rampant online

i've seen vicious attacks on hillary online....one poster stated that "she should be held down and rape until she dies", this was at digg...it literally made me sick to my stomach. the saddest part was when others replied to the original poster, and supported him.

[Geek_Girl]

218. I agree with you but honestly I don't care.

If she would have been more of a champion for progressives and less of a war monger I would have fought tooth and nail to see she was elected president. But she abandoned the base so she's screwed. She did this to herself.

[LadyVT]

229. She and Obama have voted the exact same way 95% of the time

It's a fact.

[ToughLuck]

219. Not voting for Hillary means you hate women?..what a bad joke

Her policies are what is important, she has either very poor judgment..her vote on Iraq..or she was already campaigning to the General Election crowd..either way, I do not want her as president..has nothing to do with her being a woman. Why did the NY NOW chapter call Kennedy a betrayer of women??
If you want equality, you do not look at gender at all...yet that is what Hillary has so desperately defined as "change."...Who the fuck believes that crap anymore?

[readmoreoften]

226. How can you get that from what I said? I'm not voting for Clinton.

Do I hate women? No. My point was that it is not acceptable to apologize for those who call a candidate a bitch and a cunt. We'd be incensed if someone called Olympia Snowe a cunt. And she's a Republican.

[defendandprotect]

220. Look . . . I think it benefits us all to have each candidate treated respectfully....

and for people at DU to fight for that ---

Let's make sure that NO candidate it taken down by truly personal attacks --

Meanwhile . . . I'm watching the debate tonight and noticed that HRC commented on her relationship
with Gov. Anne Richards --- who was marvelous at using humor to get you thinking about the truth
of a situation.

If either of these two candidates have that kind of an ability ---
I'd welcome it!

[defendandprotect]

221. Look . . . I think it benefits us all to have each candidate treated respectfully....

and for people at DU to fight for that ---

Let's make sure that NO candidate it taken down by truly personal attacks --

Meanwhile . . . I'm watching the debate tonight and noticed that HRC commented on her relationship
with Gov. Anne Richards --- who was marvelous at using humor to get you thinking about the truth
of a situation.

If either of these two candidates have that kind of an ability ---
I'd welcome it!


PS: Anyone notice that Obama is a lefty --- ?

[tandem5]

231. your last lines are especially dead on nt

[D-Sooner]

232. I wish Hillary people would quit whining

I can't even count the number of threads whining about sexism I've seen since this campaign began. Yawn...

[plastichallway]

233. Media women swoon over Obama

He makes Candy Crowley blush and giggle like a baby hippo.

[ErnestoG]

234. Baloney.

She is getting ravaged for her lousy policies, her clear proximity to the right wing, her war vote, her sense of political entitlement and her horribly run campaign.

Please don't belittle the very REAL lingering chauvinism and misogyny with this crap.