Even PCIntern is surprised...

[PCIntern]

Those of you who are familiar with my posts know that as a dentist, I spend a whole lot of time talking politics with my patients, but in a reasonable, constructive way, and never ever insult anyone's beliefs, no matter how moranic (sic), poorly conceived, based in utter lies, or ridiculous beyond all human comprehension, if they are presented in a reasonable, rational, and calm manner. Doing business with, say, 20% of my practice who are loyal Rethugs is a necessity on many levels, including ethical, moral, and financial. Furthermore, I only get into vituperative arguments when someone attempts to belittle my opinions in a puerile manner or if they are abusive. If that occurs, then all barrels are fired. Lastly, I never ever ever, without exception, argue with Dems during Primary season, for the simple reason that I am of the belief that we must all hang together.

And I have never broken that rule.

So what I report to you today has absolutely nothing to do with my opinions at all whatsoever, and I have hesitated in doing this because of the ire it may stir here, but here goes:

I cannot believe the number of progressive, liberal, thinking, feeling, humanistic, friendly people whom I've known for years who come in to this office and say to me, "Under no circumstances will I vote for Hillary Clinton."

I don't say a word...the anger of some is substantial and I am not here to argue or fight, but in all these years, and my clinical years go back to the 1976 Primaries, have I ever seen people in the Democratic Party so angry with one of their own. Even, I, an unabashed cynic and politically unholy person who I am, have never carried this brand of animus towards a Democrat, unless you count George Wallace as one of 'us'.

I say this because I am sad that many of us can't just prefer someone else, but that the hatred is so fueled and so white-hot that it is just unmanageable. During this time, I have not expressed a preference for one candidate or another here on DU, or anywhere else, as a matter of fact, but this is not what I thought we would metamorphose into. I just hope that we have some anger left for the General Election, no matter who is nominated.

[mimitabby]

1. yeah

I have also seen this and it mystifies me.

[cali]

2. Thanks for shedding your usual cynical joking persona

and posting this. It makes me sad. Unhappy as I am with Hillary Clinton, I'd vote for her if she were the nominee. Yours is a cautionary tale, and it gives me pause.

[PCIntern]

4. cali:

I know that you sometimes take issue with my posts, and your points are often, but not always, well taken... :hi:

I am cynical and joking because I can't face this whole business with intellectual sobriety; that this nation has descended into a smooth-walled pit is an unnecessary, horrific tragedy of indescribable proportions.

[cali]

9. You sound just like my brother.

He uses the same kind of language. He stopped by last night on his way back to MA from Montreal where he works a couple of days each week. (he's the best guy, he always brings me fantastic Montreal bagels) Anyway, he sounded off in almost idential words, and I said I don't see things as quite as bad as he does, and he shot back that that's because I live in Vermont.

[anigbrowl]

3. As a dentist, you talk but they can't answer back. Real fair!

Sorry, I had to say it :-)

I did think your op was thoughtful and interesting. I just couldn't get the image of a patient trying to reply while his/her mouth was crammed full of dental equipment out of my head.

[PCIntern]

6. Yeah...I know...

you're not the first...

If I had a dime for every time that my assistant makes the 'wrap it up' hand motions to get the patient's treatment started, or to get them out of the chair, I'd have EVEN MORE MONEY THAN YOU THINK I DO, even though that's far from the case but-you-can't-convince-people-of-that-so-why-bother?

[Leopolds Ghost]

16. No wait! I'm not numb! Ha ha! Open wide, here I come!

{PCIntern}

When I was young, just a quar' little kid,
My mama noticed funny things I did.

Like shootin' puppies with a B B gun.
I'd poison guppies, and when I was done

I'd find a little pussycat and bash in its head

while arguing the merits of Goldwater vs. Johnson.

And That's When my Mama Said...

{DUers}

What did she say?

{PCIntern}

She said, "My boy, I think someday
You'll find a way.

To make your political tendencies pay!
You'll be a dentist

You have a talent for causin' things pain
Son, be a dentist

People will pay you to be inhumane
Your temperament's wrong for state office

And cable news show would suit you still less
Son, be a dentist

You'll be a success!

{DUers}

Here he is, folks the leader of the plaque!
Watch him suck up that gas! (Oh, my god...!)

He's a dentist and he'll never ever be any good
Who wants to discuss politics with the Marquis de Sade?

{Patient}

I hate Obama. Ow that hurts! I'm not numb!

{PCIntern}

Oh, shut up. Open wide. here I come!

I am your dentist
And I enjoy the candidate I picked

I am your dentist
And I get off on the pain I in-flict!

I thrill when I drill a bicuspid
It's swell though they tell me I'm politically maladjusted

And though it may cause my patients distress,

I know that Somewhere, somewhere in the blogosphere above me

I know, I know, my guy is proud of me...

"Oh... bama."

'Cause I'm a dentist... and a success!

Say ah! (Ah!)

Say ah! (Ah!)

Say ah! (Ahhhrgl!)

Now SPIT! ;-) :evilgrin:

[Thrill]

5. How do you think they are going to feel if she wins

because of Super Delegates or going after Obama's Pledged ones

[PCIntern]

7. I would ask the logical 'next question'

how are they gonna feel saying "President McCain" or "President Huckabee"?

[scheming daemons]

8. Which is why they are working so hard for Obama...

...so they won't have to worry about a "President McCain".

[NastyRiffraff]

10. That's sad, and I see it on both sides

I support Hillary, and I understand that there are some of her supporters who will pout and take their ball and go home if Obama is nominated. (That's not me, BTW.) However, although this is certainly unscientific, it seems that there are more of Obama supporters who stomp their feet and declare they'll never vote for Hillary, under ANY circumstances.

All these people are losing sight of the main goal...to elect a good Democrat. And I think both candidates are good Democrats who would be far, far better than any Republican.

[TheDoorbellRang]

11. Do any of them give reasons?

This baffles me, too. I'm voting for Obama but not because of any personal animus towards Hillary. And I think most of us here can list cogent reasons as to why we prefer one candidate over another, but I know several people who aren't heavily into politics who say the same thing, and I've never been given a reason other than "I just can't stand her" or, when pressed, "no more Clintons." Sometimes I wonder if people just have Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton stuck in their heads and they don't even bother to separate the two any longer. It's definitely a gut reaction, tho -- doesn't seem to be based on the issues at all. :shrug:

[HeraldSquare212]

12. If you were holding a drill in my mouth, I'd vote for whomever you told me to.

[PCIntern]

19. HA! As Tweety would say, but

funny thing about being a dentist...we are saddled with all these stereotypes and laugh-a-minute lines...you'd be surprised how serious some of us are and that our work involved a whole lot more than handpieces and burs.

Now if you want to see something really funny, look for W.C. Fields' 2-reeler "The Dentist". Made in 1931 before the Hayes Act it is the most indecent, funniest, and remarkable portrayal of a dentist in mass media. Nothing touches it to this day...not Carol Burnett Show, not Marathon Man, not even, The Dentist with Corbin Bernsen, which was the most horrible pic ever made about anything ever.

However, I'm trying to stay of of the 'trite' tonight...

[still_one]

13. Doesn't surprise me. That is what the years of the media and the repug sound machine did

all through the 90s

If she is the nominee, hopefully, there will be enough young people who will overturn those that think that way

Incidently, I am an Obama supporter, but will vote for whoever the nominee is

[XemaSab]

23. I think it's naive to blame the right wing media.

All I know about 90's politics I learned from Jim Hightower's late, lamented radio show, and he instilled in me a healthy disrespect for the Clintons.

[still_one]

36. Most people were not hearing Jim Hightower, they were listening to the MSM

such as CNN, faux, CNBC, etc.

From whitewater to every other crap issue they could bring up

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Interesting. I Haven't Met One.

The ones I talk to, including the many today by the coffee station, all feel bad for the way she's been treated. Different crowds I guess...

[MonkeyFunk]

15. Yep

15 years of constantly portraying her as a power hungry, meanspirited bitch pays off.

[ShortnFiery]

20. Right. It has absolutely nothing to do with all the shameless dirty tricks or their DLC.

You see America, when your surname is either "Clinton" or "Bush" it's always someone else's fault, i.e., the sexist media and/or the dumb-ass cult-like opponents followers (people delegate majority).

Oh how I wish that I too could be "a Bush" or "a Clinton." :puke:

[MonkeyFunk]

35. You're a perfect example

By all accounts of people close to her, she's warm, funny, good-hearted and a dedicated, hard worker. Even her enemies in the Senate have come to respect her.

Your hatred is irrational. It makes you rant and rave and babble and just generally lose control of your bowels when you see her name. I don't know how you manage to get up in the morning with such debilitating hatred weighing on you.

[SeattleGirl]

17. I don't get that attitude either.

I was a John Edwards supporter, and was very disappointed when he suspended his campaign. However, it never crossed my mind to NOT VOTE AT ALL just because he wasn't in the race any longer.

Clinton or Barack may not be my first choice, but I do know that another Republican president would be the absolute last straw for me. This country has suffered so much damage at the hands of the Bush Cabal (not to mention other parts of the world suffering as well), that I will do what I can to get a Democrat elected in November.

[ieoeja]

18. Is it a matter of preference?

When we no longer had to defend the Clintons 24x7 from stupid GOP attacks, a lot of us had time to ponder the Clinton administration and concluded we were betrayed:

- Don't ask don't tell
- Defense of Marriage Act
- Welfare Reform

And betrayal gets people seriously riled. Then add to that:

- revelation that the DLC spin-off in Australia really was a rightwing front organization
- fight over DNC chair in 2004
- repeated public attacks on the DNC afterwards
- siding with the GOP against Kerry's "botched joke"

At some point point even a level headed, Occam's Razor cynic like myself starts wondering, are the Clintons actually working to advance the rightwing agenda from within the Democratic Party? One thing is for damned certain. They haven't done shit for advancing the leftwing agenda.

[XemaSab]

24. I think the one rightwing barb that's really stuck for a lot of liberals

is the assertion that the Clintons don't stand for anything.

Take W, for example. He's a pissy little toddler, but he'll put his foot down and DEMAND to get his way.

I don't recall Clinton ever putting his foot down once and saying "Dammit, this is how it's going to be, cause it's the right thing to do." The only thing I remember him taking real righteous indignation at was the whole impeachment thing. :eyes:

Remember well, we would have had Gore in office for the last 7 years if the left had been really motivated to get out and vote for him. Now he's considered a leftist standard-bearer, but in 2000 he seemed like more of the same, even to me. I voted for Gore with a reasonable amount of enthusiasm, but a lot of my friends to the left of me were totally apathetic about his candidacy.

[TheZug]

21. Personally

I never liked the idea of a political dynasty. I don't want to go through all that crap we had to deal with in the Clinton years. And I am not getting over her calculated vote for the war.

Yeah, I know a lot of those shenanigans were not her fault. Yes, I know the Clintons did good things.

But I want to move on.

My humble opinion.

[LiberalAndProud]

22. I typed that on this board once, but I found I really didn't mean it.

I will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Democratic nominee, period. No ifs, ands or buts.

Go Hillary Clinton!!! Go Barack Obama!!!

I am TRULY a

YELLOW DOG DEMOCRAT. (tired of seeing the term misused and abused in this forum)

[MoonRiver]

25. Interestingly, I feel that way about BO.

And also MO.

[saracat]

26. And I have in the course of my work encountered many who will not

vote for Obama. To quote them" Obama scares the crap out of them". And these were the remarks I got canvassing high efficacy Dems!

[Coexist]

27. as brutal as the primary was getting in here - did you see the

reaction after John McCain's belligerant, arrogant speech?

We were all "Fuck McCain, he's goin' down and we're getting front row seats"."

Just wait - hearing those ugly words from him will funnel some of that anger where it belongs.

I keep trying to post anti-McCain threads, but after a few self-kicks, I give up - people only post in the mean threads or mushy feel-good threads anymore.

[PCIntern]

29. Don't you 'love' posting what you think

is a well-thought-out thread, spending some time crafting it, and it sinks like a stone, as you watch the "Fuck Circuit City" Threads get 6700 views, 193 recs, and 479 posts?

[Coexist]

30. so its not just me? lol!

Yes, and sometimes after posting a thread I put some time and thought into, I will see something on tv, pop off a quick nothing OP, and watch it get way more attention that it deserves. Its funny, and sad, really.

Here is something I found to be potentially BRUTAL for McCain - maybe you will enjoy reading it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4695258&mesg_id=4695258

[PCIntern]

34. LOL...you have more balls than I do

self-kicking that thread like that!

wow....

I once posted something about the eyebrow makeup on KO and it got like 450 replies or something. This was years ago, but sometimes people are 'talkative' and the weirdest stuffgrabs them.

good job...I always read your posts, even if I don't post replies. Maybe I will from now on...

:hi:

[gateley]

28. Yes - it's the hatred that is so disturbing and difficult to understand. How has

this happened?

And you're not just dealing with DUers - but the 'real world'.

It breaks my heart. :cry:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Hmm.

Do you think that says more about Clinton, or more about your Clientele?

[PCIntern]

32. Please allow me to say

that if my clientele: working-class, ethnic, multi-racial, lifelong Democrats in Philadelphia feel this way, then I generally believe that this is not an uncommon opinion nationally among like-minded folks. forgive the double negative, but it is appropriate in this case.

My patient base is a real mixed bag here and is a real microcosm of the City. I can do informal polling and find the electoral result weeks before an election or referendum. I believe I was on record here saying that I thought that Candidate-for-mayor Michael Nutter's fortunes were on the rise long before the MSM here reported rising poll numbers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Thanks for that reply.

I'm personally glad it's looking like we won't have to find out whether or not your clientele means it.

[Libface]

37. I kind of wonder...

...what the results would be of a cross-referencing of who you support (or whether you HATE Hillary more specifically) and whether you've seen "Century of the Self" would be. Watching that was one of the things that really helped me to look at CM with a much more critical eye (the pushing of the war and Bush helped, too) and I can see how the "old, shrieking harpee ball-buster establishment crony" v. "fresh-faced, political outsider, underdog anti-establishment, choice of a new generation" framing (or branding) has had a rather scary effect on some of the voting public. I'm 25 and supported Kucinich (and then Edwards for a bit) and it seems to me that a good portion my generation is particularly susceptible to the effects of marketing for some reason (I could be totally wrong about that, it's just my subjective view of course) and it's a shame more people haven't caught on yet. I'm not supporting either of the final two and I'm not trying to tear either one down here. I'm just calling-out what I have seen from the CM. I'll most-likely vote for whoever the nom is in November. But there are people who are paid to understand my mind and how to manipulate it and I want to be aware of it as much as I can be without going insane. These people are very good at what they do and if I want to hang on to some of my hard-earned money, I need to question their motives every once in a while (and that's the only point of this post).

Peace and love to those on DU who seem so sorely in need of some right now.

[I Vote In Pittsburgh]

38. I think you are wrong about media brain-washing

The media actually has portrayed Obama in a not-so-positive light. Sure, they had their moments of praise, but it has been a nearly endless barrage of negativity. Even if you reject this, it was Clinton who was portrayed as the "inevevitable" winner for about a year. Also, you say that you are worried about the younger generation, but 90% of them have never heard of Obama until January. I just don't buy that the media had that dramatic brainwashing effect in so short a period of time. Most of the people my age (just turned 22) are into Obama because they listened to his speeches on youtube. Most also did a quick check of his policies, but that really isn't too important after 8 years of warmongering Bush. As a final point, and I'm probably not being completely coherent since its 3 am, most young people don't watch much, or any CNN/NBX/Foxnews.

[saracat]

41. Thank you for an intelligent and well considered observation. It says a lot about your ability to

"critical think " that you are even able to ask those questions and look both back in the election cycle and inward toward your own reactions to the endless spiel. Most persons of your age group don't even recognize the manipulation and some who do, don't care.
I have been eviscerated on this board for even requesting that people research and "think" their decision. It is somehow considered an anathema. Congratulations on your awareness, no matter who you end up supporting.

I liked what Kucinch was saying, but I always knew he wasn't electable.I was an Edwards supporter and anyone who watched knows he was ripped away from us by the PTB in conjunction with the MSM. He was in fact "electable", and hence, there was a converse reason to get him out of the race.(JMHO folks, don't flame away on this).

I have actually dealt with the media a lot in the course of my own endeavors, and be assured, the media blackout of Edwards was deliberate.As is the manipulation of your generation. Candidates are also "products to be sold" and that is unfortunate when media sabotage, in addition to other actions, is implemented to do so.Congratulations on your awareness and question everything!

[casus belli]

39. Well said.

I think it's important to look past their own dislikes or hangups and understand that if we want to push progressive politics forward, we must vote for our candidate. It might even be a bitter pill to swallow to pull the lever, but ultimately people need to realize that even the least progressive of our candidates is far more progressive than the most left leaning Republican. There's just too much at stake for four more years of a Republican administration. Hillary isn't my first choice. In fact, at first I was one of the people who didn't think they could ever be persuaded to pull the lever for her. I have since come to the realization that the worst of our candidates (and I'm not suggesting she is) is a far cry better than any Republican they can offer up.

Conservative politics is a dated, disingenuous system which pulls people in with Jingoism and hyper-nationalism, but underneath really doesn't care at all about the American people. I've never seen a political philosophy which so openly advocates racism, sexism, and homophobia and does so under a banner of being "patriotic". If we are to evolve as a society, a country and as human beings, we must elect progressive candidates. Even if that means voting for one you don't particularly like.

[ErnestoG]

40. This should tell you what will happen to her if she is a general election..

clear as a bell, no?

[snooper2]

42. It happened with Dean...And with Kerry...

it's just one page on one message board...don't get bent out of shape, only about 1-200 people proabably post in GD-P