Obama just not ready for prime time....

[MagsDem]

Obama has the arrogance of someone that truly does not know what he is doing. His wife is even more arrogant... "for the first time in my adult life I am proud of America..." The arrogance might even be excusable if there was something to back it up. He uses high flowing rhetoric, but none of his policy proposals are bold.

He's challenging you to accept LESS in order to appease the right wing. It's really just that simple. He doesn't want to fight for you, he wants you to compromise with the rethug moderates (which is the same as the extreme right in any European country), even while we are poised to have a full majority in both houses.

Look at anyone of his policy proposals, and tell me which major proposal isn't watered down? They all are. I cannot believe the base of this party is falling for this.

And even if you do think it's a good idea to reach for less so you can gain rethug support (which is a fairy tale anyway) why in the hell would you fall for a guy who says he is going to change the politics in DC when he hasn't demonstrated any ability whatsoever to do that? He has the arrogance of a foolish person, too enamored of his own reflection to realize that real experience IS necessary for some jobs.

It boggles the mind.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

1. think he's "uppity"?

I perceive him differently. He and Hillary have similar policies, but they have different approaches.

No, he hasn't been married to a president, and no, he hasn't been a junior US senator as many years
as she has.

Its about approach.

Its also about the Iraq war vote. That was my number one criteria for screening candidates,
and its possible that other people feel that way too.

[MagsDem]

18. I might agree with you in the Iraq war vote....

If he hadn't politically calculated every vote about the war he has made since entering the senate.

I don't think he is uppity, I think he is arrogant without a reason to be arrogant. Even if he had accomplishments to back up his rhetoric I would think he was arrogant, but at least then I'd understand why. People who are "in love" with their own rhetoric are usually all hat and no cattle. Hell, he doesn't even know his own policies. He is 100% running on rhetoric. And no, it has nothing to do with what you're implying. Last I checked GW Bush shares a lot of the same traits, and he's white.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

45. "I Refuse to Buy into the Obama Hype (now a supporter)"

"I Refuse to Buy into the Obama Hype (now a supporter)"

by Grassroots Mom
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 05:13:32 PM PST
The next President is going to have some MAJOR challenges.
I refuse to buy into the hype, on either side, but especially on that of Obama. However the "empty rhetoric" v. "history of accomplishments" arguments have prompted me to check it out on my own, not relying on any candidate's website, book, or worst of all supporters' diaries, like this one.

I went to the Library of Congress Website. The FACTS of what each did in the Senate last year sure surprised me. I'm sure they will surprise you, too. Whether you love or hate Hillary, you will be surprised. Whether you think Obama is the second coming of JFK or an inexperienced lightweight, you will surprised. Go check out the Library of Congress Website. After spending some time there, it will be clear that there is really only one candidate would is ready to be the next president, even better than Gore. If you don't want to spend an hour or two doing research, then I'll tell you what I discovered on the jump.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

[MagsDem]

56. Spare me the cultists from DKos

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

72. stick your fingers in your ears? lists both Clinton and Obama accomps

:shrug:

don't read it please don't read it.

[MagsDem]

75. I've read it.... it's bullshit

Gee, I can't tell you how important it is to me that "Obama's bill shows how he thinks big: do everything we can to make sure that lead-painted Thomas the Tank Engine toys don't get into the hands and mouths of millions of toddlers in this country."

Damn, you're right - that's the world's most pressing problem. I never would have thought of just not buying my kid cheap ass toys from China. Oh wait, I did think of that when I was a parent of a young child.

The Dkos poster doesn't seem to realize Obama was for trade with China before he was against it. Tough stand though, being against lead in kid's toys. LOL!

[Nedsdag]

100. McClurkin is still pissing you off?

Get over yourself, please!

[iconocrastic]

155. O yes

[AlertLurker]

125. Clinton's bills, for the most part, represent work she has DONE.

Obama's. except for the lead paint bill, the amendment on genetics, and a bill TO RENAME A POST OFFICE have either NOT PASSED, or are set to be introduced SOMEWHERE DOWN THE ROAD.

If you are going to talk about bills in House, talk about Obama's Senate NON-VOTING record. It's pretty pretty enlightening:

Important votes (and non-votes) from Obama's voting record:
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

10/18/2007 Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions - DID NOT VOTE
09/06/2007 Prohibiting U.S. Assistance for Groups that Support Coercive Abortion - DID NOT VOTE
06/22/2006 Defense Department FY 2007 Authorization bill - Voted Y
10/26/2005 Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Funding Amendment - N
04/18/2005 Future Military Funding for Iraq Amendment - DID NOT VOTE
11/01/2007 Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007 (CHIP) - DID NOT VOTE
10/18/2007 Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions - DID NOT VOTE
10/03/2007 Border Fence and Customs Appropriations - DID NOT VOTE
10/01/2007 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 - DID NOT VOTE
09/10/2007 Bridge Repair Funding - DID NOT VOTE
07/26/2007 Implementing the 9/11 Commission Recommendations Act - DID NOT VOTE
07/26/2007 Department of Homeland Security Appropriations - DID NOT VOTE
07/26/2007 Border Fence and Customs Appropriations - DID NOT VOTE
07/26/2007 REAL ID Funding - DID NOT VOTE
09/07/2007 Student Loan Lender Subsidy Cuts and Student Grants - DID NOT VOTE
07/20/2007 Student Loan Lender Subsidy Cuts and Student Grants - DID NOT VOTE
10/30/2007 Amtrak Reauthorization - DID NOT VOTE
05/07/2007 FDA Drug Import Certification Amendment - DID NOT VOTE
07/19/2007 Sense of the Senate on Guantanamo Bay Detainees - DID NOT VOTE
06/06/2007 Denying Legal Status for Immigrants Convicted of Certain Crimes - N
06/14/2007 Offshore Drilling in Virginia - DID NOT VOTE
11/08/2007 Water Resources Development Act of 2007 - DID NOT VOTE
09/06/2007 Prohibiting U.S. Assistance for Groups that Support Coercive Abortion - DID NOT VOTE
10/31/2006 Secure Fence Act of 2006 - Voted Y
09/26/2007 Expressing the Sense of Congress Regarding Federalism in Iraq - DID NOT VOTE
09/26/2007 Expressing the Sense of Congress Regarding Iran and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps - DID NOT VOTE
03/02/2006 USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization - Voted Y
06/07/2006 Same Sex Marriage Resolution - Voted N
06/29/2006 U.S. -Oman Free Trade Agreement - Voted Y

[Bake]

168. "Even better than Gore"????

I seriously doubt that. SERIOUSLY.

Bake

[pnwmom]

81. Nope. But I wish he'd learn not to stick his nose up in the air.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/politics/22debate.html?hp

I'm afraid he might strain his neck.

[Maribelle]

107. What 'judgment' did Obama have? One speech that was cloned from others?

Obama and his fairy tail continues to get a free pass from the obviously-heavily-biased MSM and from his supporters on this.

If MSM were to properly analyze his speech given more than two weeks after the IWR vote, and compare his speech to those in congress that had far more information than he could possibly have, they would see too little of what he said was not already said on the floor of congress, it was in fact so closely replicating what others had said one could draw the conclusion that the meat of his speech was in fact merely a photocopy with a good job on cutting and pasting.

That he is ready to be Commander-In-Chief based on his feigned 'judgment' on the Iraq war is pathetic at best.

[JoFerret]

136. To me - that different approach

...is wishy washy and cloud cuckoo land. I want things done starting next January. I have had too many years watching the dems try to find common ground with a rabid right wing.

Enough already.
I want movement and action.

[gaspee]

147. Gross

Your use of the word uppity is a gross mischaracterization of the OP. Stop playing the fucking race card.

And the whole Jr senator thing is cute. Nice way to try to belittle Clinton. I'm not even voting for her and I can't stand this shit.

John Kerry, who's been in the Senate for over two decades is the "junior" senator from Massachusetts. Get a damned grip. If the other Senator got elected before you, you're the Jr Senator.

The bullshit being flung at Clinton is just that. Bullshit. Drink you Obama-aid, but try to have a little respect. I know it's hard to show some class, but try.

[roguevalley]

161. In my generation, uppity means something very evil when applied

to women or black people. I can't imagine a person more ready for prime time. Eleven elections in a row proves it.

[99th_Monkey]

2. So who are you shilling for ... ah .. I mean supporting for Prez.? nt

[Quixote1818]

3. I will take good judgment over experience any day.

Was it Hillary's experience that caused her to be for the war in Iraq? And was it her experience that caused her to hire Mark Penn and blow her huge lead with one blunder after another? Her campaign was sold to the American people about as good her health care plan was in 92'.

[MagsDem]

23. You buy into the media spin....

... which is the only reason you buy into all his rhetoric. If you had a mind of your own you wouldn't be able to pretend that hiring Mark Penn is any less cynical than paying organizers through temp companies to go to caucuses and vote for you. You might even know that that is precisely how rethugs have won caucuses for years. You are so being played. But you want to be played just like the public did when Bush ran. So you will be.

[Carolina]

120. excellent points

[TAWS]

4. I thought the complaint was Obama wasn't tough enough?

And now he is arrogant?

[donheld]

7. With some like the OP

He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[blogslut]

5. jealousy is so unappealing

n/t

[NDambi]

102. Yes it is...so is bitterness

[Maribelle]

113. Thanks. I love it when Obama supporters spit out childish insults.

Reflects well on your boy.

[earthlover]

116. Who are you calling "boy"?

This is not the first time I have seen an African American referred to as "boy" by a Hillary supporter.

Go ahead and say Hillary is your girl. That's silly but unoffensive.

I find it hard to believe someone would be unaware that the term "boy" directed at an AA is offensive.

[Maribelle]

117. Oh please. We refer to Hillary as 'Our Girl'. Grow freakin up.

[earthlover]

129. It is not the same thing

I find racism very offensive. There is no excuse for calling an AA, especially one running for president, "boy"

If you are not aware that this is a racial epithet, well, get a grip. It is. I do find it hard to believe anyone hasn't heard that "boy" is offensive. Maybe you are very young?

[scheming daemons]

6. Let it go, Mags.... your candidate seems to be letting it go....

...she was HONORED, ABSOLUTELY HONORED to be on the stage with him. She was starting to say her goodbyes at the end.


Hillary is becoming an Obama-ite.... and in a couple months, you will too.

[MagsDem]

30. Nope, I will never vote for him

He is the democrat's GW Bush, and I just won't pull the trigger in the voting booth for that. She does have a lot of class. If she had come right out and said he completely unqualified she'd be doing better right now, despite the media and the media lemmings.

[scheming daemons]

38. She didn't say it because... for once in the past few weeks, she decided not to lie about him....

Barack Obama is the ANTITHESIS of George W. Bush. In every way imaginable. In every possible position that he holds. In intelligence. In integrity. You name it.


You can kvetch all you want here... you won't vote for John McCain.

[angie_love]

40. I want to believe that but there is a poster here who is supposedly a life long dem

saying they will vote repug for the very first time b/c they hate Obama that much. Crazy ain't it?

[MagsDem]

51. He is every bit as fake as GW Bush was

I can't see voting for a rethug, but I would never vote for Obama. Look how he takes a shit sandwich and makes it sound like a piece of chocolate cake:

Plagarism is just fun between buddies
Not insuring 15 million people is good
Watering down decades old dem proposals for rethug consumption is "change"
My earmarks are good, yours are bad

Gag me on the "hope" of that... yeah, hope he doesn't actually get elected.

[angie_love]

59. Regarding healthcare and why I think Obamas plan is better

In my state of MA, everyone has to have healthcare and mandates are imposed upon us. I recently quit my job to help my boyfriend start a law firm and we are going through a tough time right now being that its a start up, and since we both don't have healthcare, we are facing tax penalties. I think its unfair and it puts us in the position of being worse off than before. That my personal reason why I agree with Obamas plan more than Hillarys.

[MagsDem]

68. So when you get sick it's more fair....

if you go to the ER because you don't want to pay for a doctor? And it's more fair if we all pay the costs of your unreimbursed "emergency" care? Do they call that the audacity of irresponsibility?

[angie_love]

76. Huh, who said I don't want to pay for a doctor? what are you talking abuot?

Theres no use reasoning with a Loonie. And thats what you are, crazy and a loon!

[Window]

97. LOL!

Venomous, bitter, hateful and just plain old mean. Jeeze. Comparing Obama to Bush...yes, that is crazy.



Peace:thumbsup:

[napi21]

77. I voted for Obama, but I don't like his HC plan. Think about what Hillary said tonight.

She & Edwards phrased it better than I ever have. How do you think SS or medicare would be working if it were optional? I know Obama said he would penalize the uninsured if they went to the ER, but that's crazy! Why would you leave a door like that open?

I understand there are lots of expenses when you start up a business like yours. One of them is Business Liability Insurance. I'm sure you would prefer NOT to have to pay for that either, but it's mandatory (at least it is in the psychology profession). You can't get your license renewed without it.

I would prefer paying a general higher tax of some kind for "general health care for all", but to go from what we have right now to something like that CAN'T pass! Too many Americans are way to afraid of dramatic change for something like that. We may not like to admit it, but we all ALREADY pay for uninsured people to receive medical care! THAT'S exactly the reason an asprin given in a hospital costs $10.00!!!! There are coses associated with every servuce ir treatmnent a person receives in a hospital. It is MANDATORY that every patient who presents themselves in an ER be treated. If they won't or can't pay for it, SOMEBODY HAS TO cover those costs, and they're covered by increased premiums for the rest of us!

[tabatha]

143. SS deductions do not go to corporations.

[emilyg]

82. So you're letting the good citizens of MA pay for you?

[angie_love]

142. no i'm paying with my own money and I plan to buy health insurance soon, it is just very expensive

but thanks for the empathy.

[emilyg]

160. Then I apologize. Your initial post did not say that.

Insurance is very expensive - I pay over $400 a month. It hurts.

[SammyWinstonJack]

133. "He is every bit as fake as GW Bush was" Yes he is! And just as arrogant with the same

self-inflated ego. I won't vote for him either, ever!

[Arugula Latte]

140. She's in Washington state, so that'll go heavily blue for Obama without her.

[MagsDem]

44. I won't vote for Obama either

And if he does win, which I don't think the media will actually allow, you are in for a serious eye opening.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

49. I'll vote for him - but I sure as hell hope he gets someone who knows what they're doing

in to help him.

We cannot be in Iraq for another 100 years. We also have to overturn what the Repubs have done to the environment for the last 8 years.

[MagsDem]

53. Why does he need that? Kumbaya fixes everything.....

Hope is the new dem version of the faith based Bush form of running govt.

[emilyg]

83. I won't either.

And I gave it a lot of thought.

[angie_love]

144. well you're a secret freeper anyway so thats not surprising.

[angie_love]

39. I respect that you're angry that Hillary is losing but you're being delusional if you can't see the

difference between Bush and Obama. The two are WORLDS apart. How dare you compare Obama to that dribbling stumbling idiot? For one thing, Bush invaded Iraq that led to thousands being killed. Obama was in the minority that spoke against that war. They are complete OPPOSITES. There are some very classy Hillary supporters that are accepting reality and are willing to support the nominee, what you are doing is incredibly divisive and so unclassy. Its sad.

[MagsDem]

73. Bush is not an idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing....

and he doesn't mind babbling a lot of bullshit to convince you a shit sandwich is a piece of chocolate cake. And that is what they have in common. Very unfortunately, I might add.

[angie_love]

146. wow so now you're defending bush. I hope you get kicked out of here soon. You are an ignorant ass.

[NDambi]

96. You keep your vote..plenty more to go around for him...

[MadHound]

99. You're not going to vote for him in the general election? n/t

[stevietheman]

138. Then you need to drop your support of Hillary then.

You're not in league with the Democrats if you don't support the nominee.

I *will* support Hillary if she gets the nomination fair and square. And if you don't agree to do the same with Obama, you should leave DU.

[Barrymores Ghost]

8. Nope. No broad-brush generalizations fueled by someone's massive gender-persecution complex, here...

Keep moving. Nothing to see folks.

[Obamaman2008]

9. Obama isn't perfect but. . .

He is better than Hillary or McCain. And any three is miles better than Bush.

[texas_indy]

10. President Obama, and his fantastic wife, will do just fine during his 8 years in office. (nt)

[Barrymores Ghost]

11. Translation: [*hic!!*] N/T

[angie_love]

12. I think you need to accept that shes losing...and its more likely that Hillary

will concede on March 5th than take it to PA.

[MagsDem]

19. She's like 80 delegates back, at most, out of over 2000

Was he losing when he was back that much? And if he does win, we're fucked, which was the point of the post.

[Barrymores Ghost]

29. There was a point, other than "Obama, bad...me, pissed?" N/T

[NDambi]

103. She's done..America's won...

America is better off without Hillary and Bill at the helm again...time to move forward and move on from the 90's...and Bushs' complete failure..

[Kahuna]

106. Don't understand simple math either, do you? nt

[Skittles]

13. not a huge fan but I don't see him or his wife as arrogant

and I think a lot of his "pandering to the right wing" may be political strategy although sometimes it does leave a bad taste

[angie_love]

15. I think thats what it is, b/c if you look at his senate record its solidly liberal.

[Skittles]

22. yes....I do see that

I think that's why he voted PRESENT so many times too - still, I waver between seeing it as politically savvy or just cowardly

[angie_love]

33. I understand your point.

[Skittles]

37. wow angie - civil conversation!

and you did not accuse me of being a "Hillary supporter" (and I'm not). :thumbsup:

[angie_love]

54. I respect valid criticism like you have raised and get annoyed with blatent bashing as the OP

has done. :hug:

[Skittles]

58. I hear you

both sides have been incredibly juvenile - me, I see the good and I see the bad - in each. :)

[MagsDem]

60. Refusing to buy into empty rhetoric is not blatent bashing....

And I am sick to death of being told that judging a candidate on rhetoric that doesn't match accomplishments is an unreasonable criticism. That's exactly the attitude that have enabled the Bush years.

[Ichingcarpenter]

66. Clinton right, is OK with you?

otherwise you might have a point but haven't express it well.

[MagsDem]

71. It's ludicrious to suggest he has any accomplishments

that in any way compare to hers. That's just way outside reality land. Sorry.

[Ichingcarpenter]

74. OK, thanks for replying

Now, it shows how your opinion is tainted.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but hopefully
in the fall you will support the candidate for the democratic party.

[Kahuna]

108. So, what are Hillary's grand accomplishments that make her more

prepared to be president?

[Occam Bandage]

14. ...

[ContinentalOp]

34. LOL! nt

[alphafemale]

118. That's Obama?

What a sweetie.

[mcctatas]

16. Ya know...

maybe the reason some of us support him is that after 7+ years of boosh, we are sick of politics as a zero sum game. If you truly think that gridlock, division and vitriol are a good way to run a country, then god bless...go forward and hope that a candidate gets elected who won't water down any policies to gain NECESSARY support from the other side of the aisle (and believe me, that isn't Hillary either). I for one think that the past 7+ years (especially before 2006) were painful for all democrats, moderates, and at times sane people and led to what I think could possibly be the end of the republican party...god forbid we get a president who breeds the same kind of contempt from republicans etc. Would it be really satisfying to punk the repukes for four years, turn off the lights during hearings, ram through legislation, arm twist and bully for votes....Hell Yeah, but it would absolutely not be good for the country!

and attacking his wife...holy shit!

[Tatiana]

17. Arrogance?

Arrogance is thinking that you have the nomination wrapped up after Super Tuesday.

Arrogance is relegating state after state to "insignificance."

Arrogance is continuing to push an agenda that the American people are sick and tired of (ready from day one, plagiarism-gate, it's OK for superdelegates to override the will of the public).

[Joshua N]

25. Agreed.

I have a feeling that a lot of folks who are caling Obama arrogant are just not used to or comfortable with seeing a black man being that confident.

[Blue_Roses]

167. Bingo!

well said!

[Window]

98. Dead on Tatiana.

Peace:thumbsup:

[cottonseed]

20. I'm sorry you feel that way. I am reaching out however.

I hope you can find it in you to support the Democratic nominee for President, no matter who they be. Either of these candidates will be great for the country and will allow us to move past these last terrible eight years.

[totodeinhere]

21. Obama will need people like you in November.

Let's hope that you can enthusiastically work for Obama once he clinches the nomination, which looks like it's going to be sooner rather than later.

[scheming daemons]

24. Don't worry... after all the thrashing and kvetching... they'll eventually settle down and ...

...support Obama.... because the alternative is John McCain.

[MagsDem]

36. No, not a chance

First dem in 29 yrs I can't bring myself to vote for. Mark my words, if he wins he will be our party's Bush.

[Kahuna]

109. Get it all out now girlfriend. Once Hillary concedes (or gets the hook) you

will not be allowed to bash our next president on DU.

[Johnny__Motown]

26. we are just sick and tired of grid lock, maybe if we get SOMETHING done we can build on it

The same way W passes tax cuts with a sunset and then tries to make them permanent. Or that same tactic with the so called "Patriot Act".

Lets get some legislation passed that helps people as soon as possible. Once the electorate sees that our policies work then we can expand them. If they don't work then we will need to fix them.

Spinning tires and going nowhere has gone on to long, we are starting to run out of gas.

[MagsDem]

41. There is a reason rethugs never pledge to work with dems....

.... because they have NO intention of doing so. Wake up and smell the reality. The dems will have larger majorities in each house and we need a dem president that will implement our agenda. Not one that will water it down for rethugs we don't need. The electorate will never see the dem agenda if we elect an inexperienced person that will not push it.

[Johnny__Motown]

57. you still need 60 in the senate. If you don't get that you ain't got nothing

and there was a time when the parties did work together on a regular basis. It has been decades but that does not mean it can't happen again

[MagsDem]

67. They condition you to think you need 60

The rethugs didn't need 60 to pass any of the crap they passed, now did they? The very fact that even our base has been conditioned to think we need 60 votes to accomplish anything just proves what a bunch of spineless dems has led us to. All we have to do is make them fillibuster every bill they oppose and we'd find out we don't really need 60 after all.

It's a crying shame we have all fallen for it.

[totodeinhere]

151. No, lots of times they did need 60 votes.

Plus there are usually a few DINOS like Lieberman who side with the Repukes. So we really do need to work with at least a few of the moderates on the other side of the isle. And I think that Obama is well positioned to do just that.

[Adams Wulff]

92. And Hillary Clinton is the Democratic Nominee who Republicans will work with?

YOU wake up and smell the reality.

[DemGa]

104. Of course Republicans will work with Hillary

This "Hate Hillary" routine of Obama is the silliest thing he's put over on his followers.

It's just not true -- she's certainly not hated by her Republican colleagues. No, this Hillary-hate is for the consumption of people too foolish to know better -- am hate radio fans, Fox news viewers, and now, Obama followers. Don't you see that Obama has used the years of right-wing attacks, distorted them, and used them against Hillary?

[ruiner4u]

27. AMEN!

spoken like someone who has a clue about politics and not someone who's head is stuck up Utopia's ass...



Reality is funny sometimes...


And im STILL waiting to hear what that change will be....

[emilyg]

87. So am I.

[kid a]

28. oh come on...this is more biased sludge - not flattering to your intelligence

[MagsDem]

32. It's a question of judgement

... and I know a FOS politician when I see one. I was right on GW Bush, and I am right on Obama.










By the way, I borrowed that argument from Obama. Pretty fucking arrogant, eh?

[Carolina]

122. as if HRC isn't FOS

spare me

[Thrill]

31. Who cares what you think? You spread your hate

every time you visit this board. Can't you see no one gives a damn about your opinion?

[MagsDem]

35. No, I really can't see that....

just like I can't see that no one gives a damn about yours. That's pretty arrogant of you to assume no one gives a damn about any opinion that doesn't match yours. Does that rub off on Obama's supporters from him, or what?

[mcctatas]

48. Broad brush much...

While I think the post stating no one gives a damn about your opinion was rude as hell (because once upon a time DU'ers used to like each other more often than not), and while I for one DO care what others think, I am sick of people on BOTH sides lumping the others into categories because of behavior, age, gender, and occasionally IQ...Enough already!

[emilyg]

84. I care.

[angie_love]

145. fortunately no one cares what you think either. lol.

[emilyg]

159. All that "LOVE".

[ORDem]

42. Oy vey!

:spray: Are you for real?

[Barack_America]

43. Just go join Free Republic already...

I'm sick of you spouting off right-wing talking points about Obama and touting how you're unwilling to vote for the Democratic nominee (which he will almost certainly be).

Hillary is not likely to be the nominee. It's time for you to either suck it up and accept that or step aside.

This shit is fine to bitch about on Hillaryis44, but it no longer has a place here, IMO.


ETA: Lest you try to say that you never said you wouldn't vote for him
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4545035&mesg_id=4546124

[KAZ]

50. Bravo! This asshole needs to be TS'd now. I'm getting

tired of spending money for these fucks to attack our party.

[MagsDem]

62. Obama is NOT our party

That's your first mistake.

[KAZ]

63. No, that's the next alert. Confused about this board much?

[MagsDem]

65. Not confused at all

For instance, I know that two candidates are running, and one would be really bad for our party, as detailed in the OP.

[KAZ]

69. That's a good post. It's what we're all about, discussion.

[saracat]

78. You are out of line to say that criticism of Obama does not have a place here. Until we have an

nominee, anyone is allowed to crticize or debate about any candidate.And we will not have a nominee until after the convention. I am really tired of posters who tell others who is welcome and what to post.No one made you the arbitrator of all things DU.And you don't have the authority to tell any DUer to "Join Free Republic," or " It's time for you to either suck it up and accept that or step aside."
Actually,telling someone to join FR isn't allowed.

[totodeinhere]

152. Right.

Constructive criticism is all well and good. Hateful criticism and refusal to support the eventual nominee if he or she is not the candidate you are supporting now is not.

[Ichingcarpenter]

46. Not ready for "Prime Time" players...... some of the greatest of all time

Out of all the SNL casts.

[Raine]

47. Obama just gets better and

better in these debates :bounce: TERRIFIC!

[davidinalameda]

52. hate to break it to you but people want bipartisianship

what boggles the mind is that people are still calling working with republicans APPEASEMENT

hate to break it to some of y'all but these are still Americans and after 8 years of the most divisive government in history, we need to work together to get this country back

but then again there are those who are more concerned with ideology than doing the right thing

and then there's those who are puppets who try to stir up trouble

[MagsDem]

64. Rethugs do not want to work with you

Not now, not in the past, not in the future. So it IS appeasement. It's almost as if all of you have not even noticed the spineless dems of the past 8 yrs. Working with rethugs got you the patriot act, your civil rights taken away, 2 ultra right wing USSC justices and countless federal judges.

What boggles the mind is how you can scream when dems in congress to it, and turn yourselves in pretzel knots for a candidate that promises you he is going to do it. Dumb. Sorry. Just dumb.

[davidinalameda]

128. not all republicans are evil

just like not all Democrats are good

[557188]

164. Yes they are

Anyone who believes in right wing policies is evil. Even more so considering how slanted to the right American politics is. In Europe the Republican party would be considered far right. Thus EVIL.

[davidinalameda]

169. evil?

so you're right and everyone else is wrong?

[gaspee]

150. I've posted this before, but I have to say it again

Dems = Charlie Brown and R's = Lucy.

Each time gullible 'ole Charlie Brown *believes* and *hopes* she won't move that football and every single time, she moves the damn football.

The R's are not going to work with the D's no matter what. They've proven it over and over and over again.

Hey, but hope some more and maybe this time Lucy won't move the damned football.

[rodeodance]

85. Repugs are going to make nice!--ask the Dems in congress.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

55. I truely do not know what people are thinking... we have such a big mess in the US

We have such a huge mess going on right now in this country that I just don't see that people are going to vote for him in the end. Yes - it's exciting and fun right now - but I just don't see that moderates and independents are going to vote for someone with that little experience when it comes down to it.

[LadyVT]

61. Yes, I completely agree. "My job is to make you safe."--Bush and OBAMA!

His job is actually to SERVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

It's the military who keep us safe.

Kind of a big difference.

[Bluenorthwest]

141. The President swears one thing

And that is to uphold and defend the Constitution.

[mcctatas]

70. Locking...

oh shit, I'm not a mod, but really, this one has just gotten freaking UGLY!

[Justice Is Comin]

79. He's not only not read for prime time

he's not ready for any time. The thought of him having the power of president makes bile come into my throat.

He'll have afternoon tea parties with the republican fungus, forget where he put the launch codes, stick his nose up in the air to Putin who will ramp up the cold war like we have never seen in twenty years, have more influence and power over six billion people than anyone else in the world, but have less intelligence than any of his cabinet. Or probably twenty million other people in the US.

It's almost hilarious.

[TreasonousBastard]

80. Damn! I'm changing my vote again.

[rodeodance]

86. maybe in 8 yeas he will be ready.

[totodeinhere]

153. But I don't think we can afford to wait for 8 years.

We need Obama now. Politics as usual for the next eight years is not acceptable.

[bridgit]

88. I don't think so either, I keep seeing him across the table from a whole world filled...

with Putin-esque dream killers & snipes and Obama trying to "cool" & "rif" his way through...I wish him every luck cause he's going to need it, but it is not going to be a pretty thing. This world is not "rough & tumble" ChiTown politics...it's worse than that. And the world is already bleeding out.

[Binka]

93. Ah Shit You Too

Welcome to ignore. You sound like a petulant teenager. Bye Bridgit.

[bridgit]

94. I find 'ignorance' a common theme among too many Obama supporters

A willingness to 'ignore' the thoughts of others. I remain unconvinced that your candidate would even sanction such childish behavior as you've exhibited here...but you may know him better than I do. If you do, then it is you instead that not only "sound(s) like a petulant teenager", but is playing the part to a 'T'

[Fox Mulder]

89. Bush has been president since I turned 18...

and I have yet to be proud of America in my adult life.

What's wrong with that? I totally agree with what Obama's wife said.

[BigBearJohn]

90. Why do certain people on DU have to call names to try win an argument by intimidation?

Seems like if some people can't win an argument with logic, so instead,
they will try to embarrass, ridicule, slander, insult or berate the person
they disagree with.

And I thought republicans were the only ones capable of this.
Boy, was I ever wrong.

I love the portions of this thread where posters attempt to use their brains
and intelligently argue their points of view.

I think a good debate is healthy. So even if a post knocks you off your
chair, why not get up and intelligently present your argument?

[LadyVT]

157. Motive is not to win, it's to feel superior

[knixphan]

91. Dems vs Repubs?

Nah, it's all about that small percentage of the wealthiest, power-hungry bastards who've been controlling our government...

vs. the other 99% of us.

Nothing's gained by the childish caricaturing of Senator Obama. (unless some of you have some latent bigot-genes you haven't discovered yet).

We need to become a unified force - not just to get the presidential election, but to get that REAL majority in the Senate and House...

The real battle is NOT among ourselves. The anger you feel needs a more deserving target.

Those of you who want real national single-payer health insurance? It's gonna be YOU hollering at your senators who help make that happen. That's the whole 'WE' thing that Barack is talking about. The policies they debate about are only ideas, sketches. It's gonna take US on speed-dial with our reps to get anything done.

So let's stick together, and stay involved AFTER Barack's inauguration - And really take the country back.

[cali]

95. wow. shocker! another bitter

spew from you. And that's all it is. More whine. More bitter grapes. More distortion. No one gives a damn and voters disagree with you. Get used to it. It's over.

[shadowknows69]

101. No matter how much you guys say it

It doesn't appear that the American people are buying it. Hillary seemed pretty complimentary of him last night.

[still_one]

105. Why the "base of the party is falling for this". Because they know when you vote for the IWR

you mean to go to war

When you vote for using cluster bombs in civilian areas, you don't care about civilians

When you vote for the Kyle/Lieberman amendment, you really have no plans to talk to your adversaries, you just want to threaten them

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear why the base is not falling for Clinton

[Maribelle]

111. That he is ready to be Commander-In-Chief based on his feigned judgment on the Iraq war is pathetic

He manifested no 'judgement' on his Iraq pomp.

This crap is beyond scary.

[still_one]

114. That she is ready to be Commander-In-Chief on a vote that overturned the war powers act

what kind of judgement does that represent?

Effectively voting for something that removes Congressional oversight of the executive branch to engage in war

[Maribelle]

115. Ha ha ha - can't debate Obama's judgment? Try reading Senator Bob Graham.

Most Obama's supporters haven't even a clue about the IWR and the amendments that were attempting to modify the IWR.

And the bush-ass-kissing MSM do not want to go there.


Senator Bob Graham was the ONLY democratic senator to vote against all three.

He is my authority, and a beloved one at that.

Senator Bob Graham, the only democratic senator to vote against the IWR and the two important amendments was clear: the others did not have access to the critical information he did, the exact information that had him force the CIA to produce an NIE on Iraq. And tragically, the CIA did not put that critical information into the NIE that caused him to vote no on all three IWR issues.

[still_one]

124. I know what the IWR IS, and I also know what the War Powers Act is

I lived through the Viet Nam war

I lost friends in that war based on a lie.


What the IWR did is OVERRIDE THE WAR POWERS ACT

bush didn't need the IWR to invade Iraq, but he needed the IWR to avoid Congressional oversight after 60 days of committing troops there. That is the SIN of the IWR

Any idea why Hillary voted against protecting civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232#position

Incidently, Senator Bob Graham was NOT the only Democratic Senator to vote against the IWR

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

SO YOUR STATEMENT that "Senator Bob Graham, the only democratic senator to vote against the IWR" is NOT correct

Russ Feingold was THE ONLY SENATOR TO VOTE AGAINST THE PATRIOT ACT THOUGH

[ShortnFiery]

126. I guess you forget Darth Vader's (Cheney's) daily visits to Foggy Bottom during the run up ...

to the invasion. Couple that with out Executive "strong arming" of *our* USA Intelligence Assets, it's naive to blame it all on *Intelligence.*

I haven't been in the Intelligence field since the late 1980s but even though I was read out of the KNOW, I personally researched the Net and was able to ascertain THE TRUTH - that Iraq was a distractions. MANY FINE Senior Intelligence Analysts threw up *red flags* to the M$M, but The Executive Branch via Scooter Libby FED lies to Judy Miller to be published in The New York Times while the rest of the whorish M$M sang Bush-Bot praises that he could do NO WRONG.

No, IMO, it's just plain wrong COMPLETELY blame this mess on The Intelligence Agencies within the USA although "the Seniors" ended up punking us out, i.e., See George Tenet INSANE "team player" mindset.

We must be honest with ourselves that we should have *paid MORE attention* to General Schenseki (pressured into early retirement) and Retired General Anthony Zinni (former four star general of CENT COMM and Middle East envoy) before *some* of us jumped aboard the "Let's invade Iraq" bandwagon.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2003/0228pentagoncontra.htm

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/zinni.html


Also don't forget the M$M's smear of Scott Ritter who ALSO tried to warn the American People that they were being punked.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0912-02.htm

----------

Those within Congress who voted for the IWR choose to place their personal *political survival* over their better judgment. We all know that it, with rare exception, would be political suicide not to go along with Bush's Ambitions, however devoid of morality, so soon after the horrific Al Quaeda attacks on September 11th, 2001.

Many have "come clean" and in their defense, perhaps they rationalized that SOMEHOW the invasion and stabilization may be a success. But they were being UNTRUE to themselves. IMO, those men and women with honor, later came forth and apologized to the American People for this lapse of good judgment.

I don't believe in nurturing resentments on those who have reflected and are now "honest with both themselves and the American People." Being "politicians" for so long can put a zap on your brain that is less than mean-spirited.

My final point is that we should own-up to the idea that the Invasion of Iraq was an Horrific Mistake that will require the next decade of concerted and thoughtful diplomacy and open communications to repair our integrity in the eyes of the world community.

[Tennessee Gal]

110. I have a lot of the same concerns as the OP.

I am deeply worried.

[Maribelle]

112. He does not offer universal health, he shrunk back on his Cuban pomp, his educational policy sucks

In the beginning of the debate his body language and his voice gave me the distinct impression he was so nervous after so many debates, how on earth could he possibly be effective in meetings with strong bullies that are our enemies?

After a while he got over his obvious nervousness, but he would not have that timing factor to his advantage on the world stage.

Obama is far from ready to be leader of the free world.

[sendero]

119. no candidate has appeased the right wing..

... more than HRC. IWR, Kyl-Lieberma, Patriot Act, how effing much more appeasement can you get?

[From The Left]

121. More Racist Drivel

Bump.

[Maribelle]

123. Nothing racist is drivel. Only a fool would think so.

Your judgment is called into question.

[snappyturtle]

127. You should be admired for your strength. You obviously haven't

looked at Sen. Obama's record. To take one of your points, I haven't seen anything that points to Sen. Clinton's ability to change politics in D.C. As far as I am concerned she is part of it and a reason many of us are looking for change.

[GOTV]

130. Then how is he able to run such a good campain right out of the box? n/t

[totodeinhere]

154. You make a very good point.

How a candidate runs their campaign is usually a pretty good indicator of how they will govern if they get elected. And based upon Obama's brilliant campaign and Clinton's incompetent campaign it's pretty obvious at this point who is ready for prime time.

[dionysus]

131. aww, someone needs their banky...

[Raffi Ella]

132. I agree with everything you said.

Hillary is a Fierce Democrat;The Party and the people come first for her, as she demonstrated so beautifully last night.

I'm sorry to say this but after last nightI see Obama as a very small man.I realize campaigning is a dirty business but the Obama Camp has undermined the Party and Hillary in a way that she never would dream of doing to him.

To accuse and allow your your surrogates to call The Clinton's,of all Democrats,racist is beyond the pale.

Last night when she said his campaign was xeroxed,he turned it around and pulled the 'FairyTale' swift boating technique on her by suggesting to his fans that she was calling them delusional.HIS Campaign is the delusion not his supporters but he can't answer for his hollow rhetoric and thin resume so he makes it about 'Us or Them';He is creating that same enemy scenario that Bush created with "you're either with us or against us" - "You're Anti Hope if You're Anti Obama"

It's low.All of it.And just plain wrong.People hate Hillary for wrong and unwarranted reasons and Obama has capitalized on that.I think what he has done to her is as bad if not worse than what Bush did to McCain back in 2000.

I can not be a part of that.After last night I see Hillary Clinton as Our only choice because on top of her being ready for it and qualified,integrity and character matter to me.

[GumboYaYa]

134. Enjoy making these posts while you can...in a few days Obama will be the nominee and

anti-Obama posts will be banned as we rally around our nominee. It was nice knowing you.

[JoFerret]

135. The clear competence

...of Hillary means that should Obama win we will have been "robbed".
Her competence and command are outstanding.

Why we are settling for second best is astounding.

[Iris]

137. He's challenging you to accept LESS in order to appease the right wing. It's really just that simple

This is my feeling exactly.

However, I was pleased to hear he supports allowing children of illegal immigrants to attend college.

[Joshua N]

148. I am not accepting less. I think you are just misunderstanding what he is trying to do.

I think he is the better candidate. He is not triangulating to appease anybody, he is trying to pull others (Independents and Republicans) over to his side. Most who call themselves Republicans do so because of wedge issues, not because they are actually Republican or believe in Republican ideas. Republicans fool voters into voting against their self interest. Obama is trying to counteract that and I think it is a brilliant idea.

[Iris]

149. I don't think so.

He's quite liberal and I liked everything he said last night, but he's thrown the GLBT crowd to the wolves in order to get independents and republicans. Also, one thing he said that I really liked is that he supports allowing the children of illegal immigrants who have been raised in this country to attend college, but I really don't think many Republicans are going to let that fly. So, while he's pulling them over, he's also giving them the chance to destroy what he says he stands for.

[Joshua N]

156. That's true

There are certainly many points for them to contend. I do think, however, that many people can change their mind or accept his stance. That is what I like about him - that he has not put his finger to the air before making a position - for instance, giving undocumented immigrants drivers' licenses. That, really, is the point I am getting at. Sure, some will not like him based on his stances, but some who have been Republican "just because" or because their parents were may be won over. The conciliatory tone he has had has been enough to win over many. Personally I think he should up the intensity of this message. At the same time, of course, without blunting his message or his positions stances.

In what way has he thrown the GLBT crowd to the wolves? I am asking honestly, wanting to know the truth.
I do know about the McClurkin incident, and although I understand people's frustration with that I wouldn't call it throwing them to the wolves. I read a quote where he stated quite clearly that he didn't agree with Donnie and that he does not think homosexuality is a choice.

However, if he has done something else that is negative to the GLBT community, I want to know. I don't want to be under any false impressions regarding his stances if there is a negative about him I am not aware of.

[Iris]

158. I'd say he stuck his finger in the air in SC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/20/obama-to-do-gospel-tour-w_n_69236.html

[ProSense]

139. Here is what boggles the mind

Hillary's inability to inspire and manage her campaign

[Laurab]

162. You forgot "Bald faced liar" in your post.

I really hate when you do that - it's usually the only part I read...

[elixir]

163. K&R

[jillan]

165. It boggles my mind how when I was actively supporting Biden

he constantly got attacked at DU for working across the aisle by the same people that are now supporting Obama.

:scratches head:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

166. you are absolutely right! "He's challenging you to accept LESS in order to appease the right wing."