I'm starting to see why Hillary flunked the DC bar exam

[dailykoff]

after law school. Her grasp of policy is not strong. She can make an effort, but what comes easily to Obama -- facts, dates, programs, proposals -- comes hard to Hillary. She's reluctant to change a subject once she's launched herself on it and she's a little slow ay ticking off the policy points.

On the other hand, she seems to excel at melodrama, which is good because that's really ALL she excels at.


Hillary Clinton failed the D.C. bar exam after law school, something she hid from her best friends for 30 years until disclosing it in passing in her autobiography, "Living History." Bernstein suggests that blow to her ego may have played a role in her decision to move to Arkansas, where she had passed the bar.

link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/24/AR2007052402479_2.html

[Breeze54]

1. Many, many people retake the bar exam all the time.

JFK's son did and so have many others.

Empty point. :eyes:

[ORDagnabbit]

2. so what other presidential candidate failed the bar?

[MonkeyFunk]

47. Jerry Brown

as well as Governor Pete Wilson.

Also, Kathleen Sullivan, the noted constitutional law expert, failed the CA bar the first time.

Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago also failed the first time. So did Mayor Ed Koch. So did Gov. Charlie Crist.

[Breeze54]

56. La la la la la ~~~~

:yourock:

:P

[plastichallway]

66. But Obama flunked the LIFE exam. Rezko Trial Comin' up

[cali]

74. Too bad for you that Obama isn't

implicated in it, and that Fitz has cleared him of wrong doing. Clue: He would have been subpoenaed already if he had any involvement.

[Hepburn]

93. And...unless things have drastically changed in Feddie practice...

...each side exchanges witness lists...so if Obama was involved, his name would have been on the list of one side or both long ago.

[SoxFan]

111. Bunch of losers

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa
Former NYC Mayor Ed Koch
Kathleen Sullivan, ex dean of Stanford Law School
California Attorney General Jerry Brown
Superstar trial attorney Jerry Spence

:sarcasm:

[Mabus]

99. The bar exam, as an actual examination, is fairly recent in history

I made a long post about what I remembered about the history of the bar then I googled. The following website says it much better than I could.

source: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1358749

Some features of professional licensing of lawyers reveal an English heritage. In the United Kingdom, the "bar" means barristers, not lawyers in general. Traditionally, barristers had rights of "audience" in a particular court. Today, some solicitors are permitted to argue in court, and the distinction is somewhat blurred. The distinction between "barrister" and "solictor" was not followed in the United States. The U.S. does, however, restrict the practice of law, and admission to "the bar" means permission to speak in court.

Barristers undergo an apprenticeship called a "pupillage". This tradition was followed in the United States during the 18th and 19th Centuries, when lawyers would endure a period of "reading for the bar exam", which meant they had access to the law library of an established lawyer or law firm, in consideration for menial clerical work. Up until the late 19th century, a "bar exam" was a relatively informal meeting with an examiner, usually the local district judge, and could be as much an examination of character as knowledge of the law. It is said that Patrick Henry --the famed Virginia lawyer of the Revolutionary period and proponent of the Bill of Rights-- passed his bar exam solely on style, being at that time wholly ignorant of the law. Unfortunately, this system encouraged nepotism and cronyism, and concealed discrimination on the basis of race, religion and national origin.

Those days are long gone. Every effort has been made to create an objective measure of merit. While the number of fools and reprobates among practicing lawyers proves there is no test for wisdom or virtue, overt discrimination has been eradicated, the bar is much more diverse than it was a century ago.

Today, after graduating from law school, in place of reading in a firm's library, one signs up for a bar review course to prepare for the bar exam. The usual pattern is to graduate from law school in May, and spend the summer studying for test in July.

The only reason I bring it up is that the bar exam is fairly recent in American history. Most state bars did not require an actual formal examination until the 20's and, as you can see from the article below, some states still don't require a test exam to practice law. The standardized multi-state bar exam is an even later invention. So, the question, "what other presidential candidate has failed the bar?" is itself a bit misleading.

source: http://chronicle.com/news/article/3833/appeals-court-reinstates-lawsuit-over-wisconsins-bar-exam-exemption

January 29, 2008
Appeals Court Reinstates Lawsuit Over Wisconsin's Bar-Exam Exemption

Would-be lawyers in Wisconsin who have challenged the state’s policy of allowing graduates of state law schools to practice law without passing the state’s bar exam will have their day in court after all, the Associated Press reported. A federal appeals court has reinstated a lawsuit challenging the practice, which apparently is unique in the United States.

Wisconsin’s “diploma-privilege policy” dates to 1870, and some graduates of out-of-state law schools say it’s time it was scrapped. The lawsuit challenging the policy was filed by Christopher L. Wiesmueller, who says he suffered financially from having to wait months to take the bar exam and get the results after graduating from the Oklahoma City University’s School of Law. He grew up in Wisconsin and planned to practice in that state.

As a result the only presidents we've have had who have had to take a formal bar examination (and not just get a nod from the friend of their boss) would include (maybe) FDR, Nixon, Ford and Bill Clinton.


edited to add: In interest of full disclosure. I am a law school grad who flunked the bar the first time I took it. I was writing and researching a reply to an Environmental Assessment on a highway project. The reply to the EA was due the second day of the bar exam. For a month I worked on the EA during the day and studied for the bar at night. During the exam period I worked on the EA during the evenings and took the bar during the day. fwiw, the reply to the EA I wrote resulted in the Federal Highway Admin and the Kansas Department of Transportation having to do a full blown environmental impact statement. I've always felt I passed the exam that mattered to me.

Since then I have used my legal education primarily for environmental, Native American and political issues. Back in the 90's I did practice briefly under the supervision of other attorneys and made numerous court appearances on behalf of clients. More recently I have been doing intellectual property searches (trademarks and patents) and have done pro bono research work for local community, activist and non-profit groups.

I am currently entertaining the idea of taking the bar here in Maryland since I moved here last month. I probably would have taken the bar again before now but I got busy and it never seemed like a good time (or I couldn't afford it).

[dailykoff]

3. JFK Jr. was not a legislator.

He had great promise of course but my point is that Hillary sells herself as something she isn't -- a policy wonk -- and that deficiency was on display in tonight's debate.

[Breeze54]

15. Sorry...that's the only name I could come up with right now but your

point is still empty. My point is that many people fail
the bar exam on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd and more tries.

That doesn't make them dumb at all, in my book.

[dailykoff]

21. Not, not dumb at all, but not top notch either,

and for a job this important only the top notch should be considered.

[Breeze54]

35. BS! I know many successful... extremely successful people...

I know many successful... extremely successful people, who were B students in college.

Try the CEO billionaire of Virgin Airlines! Richard Branson

http://www.mutualofamerica.com/articles/Fortune/September03/fortune.asp">Richard Branson: What a Life

----------

Richard Branson

ADD/ADHD Rebel Billionaire; Founder & CEO of the multi-billion dollar Virgin empire, is ADHD
and Dyslexic, but he found a way to make his ADD/ADHD work for him. He could have struggled
all his life trying to "fit in" by suppressing his ADHD. Instead he "broke-out" into fame,
fortune & wild success, because he embraced the hidden genius behind his ADD/ADHD.
http://www.davincimethod.com/adult-add-adhd.html

----------

Richard Branson ADHD / ADD / Dyslexic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1GSY8GmeQE

Richard Branson in TED (www.ted.com) _talking about his school days (ADHD / ADD Dyslexic)

[dailykoff]

38. We've just had eight years of the "CEO" president.

I think we're ready to admit that making megabucks is not an especially desirable qualification.

[ErnestoG]

39. Eight years too many

[Breeze54]

46. No, we've had 8 yrs of a dumbass!!

Richard Branson is NOT a dumbass and he's a liberal. ;)

[Ichingcarpenter]

41. Inductive Argument which a fallacy

Otherwise she would have change Wal-Mart by being the CEO

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. You know, you really should take that Dennis sticker off

you are not fooling anyone.

[Breeze54]

48. Fooling anyone? Pray tell, whom am I supposed to be fooling?

That has been there for months and if you don't like it, that it reminds you that
so called "smart voters" turned their backs on the most truthful, best candidate
for the presidency then that's just tough luck, Chuck!

You're all still blind and still going for the status quo. :puke:

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.

[Ichingcarpenter]

50. You don't support Dennis

if you support Hillary.

[Breeze54]

51. Because I may agree with one or two of her remarks... then I support HRC?

You obviously haven't been on DU much in the last few years then, if that's your take.

Try searching HRC and Code Pink. ;) "Listen Hillary!" ring any bells?

Just because I may get a kick out of some things she's said recently,
as I have with Obama, doesn't mean I support either of them.

I didn't vote for either of them.

[MNDemNY]

107. You are blaspheming the Lord-God, you must be a hilbot.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

101. He didn't keep it a secret, either....n/m

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. Obama didn't fail

and ended up teaching the class

That is a fact.

[ingac70]

43. Really? When did he finally pass?

http://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=161215484

:eyes:

[Breeze54]

53. But did he have to retake the exam because he was from out-of-state?

Date of Admission as Lawyer by Illinois Supreme Court: December 17, 1991

:shrug: Am I missing something here?

[Ichingcarpenter]

54. forgot to add fail

he didn't fail

[Breeze54]

55. If he's so damn smart, how come he has to borrow speeches?

:shrug:

Can't he think of anything original through all his brilliancy?

[karynnj]

109. He borrowed TWO WORDS and a pattern

"Just word" <famous quote>, "Just words" <famous quote> etc

It was 2 lines in a long speech. The fact is that Obama likely writes more of his speeches that HRC does. Every major candidate has a speech writer. The fact is that there are tones and phrases in Obama's speeches that are his - there are others that sound similar to Patrick's - I assume they are Axelrod's words. Read any inside book on any politician - speech writing seems an interactive process, where the politician rewrites the base speech to fix parts that do not sound like him/her.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. passed bar 1991, graduated magna cum laude in 1991

From Wikipedia, but sourced:

He entered Harvard Law School in 1988.<27>
In 1990, The New York Times reported his election as the Harvard Law Review's "first black president in its 104-year history".<28> He completed his J.D. degree magna cum laude in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Your link shows he passed the bar the year he graduated.

[grantcart]

7. you are correct but the point is that she kept it secret.

Both of my brothers are lawyers, one teaches law and the other is a judge. I remember visiting one of them when he was going thru a bar prep school for a week and he introduced me to a guy from Harvard Law school. I said something like, "oh he should pass easily" he answered, "hell no guys from Harvard almost always fail the first time because they are learning the broad philosophical and deep historical basis for the law where the local law schools teach to pass the bar". He admitted they would make better lawyers, they would just have to take the bar twice. She seems unable to admit a weakness or a mistake, like taking the bar or voting for the IWR.

[Breeze54]

19. I wasn't aware she was 'trying' to hide that fact.

I really don't think it matters now either.

She obviously did pass it now.

[dailykoff]

45. That's what Carl Bernstein says in his book according to the Washington Post:

Hillary Clinton failed the D.C. bar exam after law school, something she hid from her best friends for 30 years until disclosing it in passing in her autobiography, "Living History." Bernstein suggests that blow to her ego may have played a role in her decision to move to Arkansas, where she had passed the bar.

link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/24/AR2007052402479.html

[MonkeyFunk]

72. Isn't it a matter of public record?

[Hepburn]

91. Not that I know of.....bar results, at least in Calif...

...are mailed to the taker and only the names of those who have passed the exam are publically posted and published. So, if one knows that someone has taken the bar at a specific date, IMO, the info could be deduced. However, at least in Calif, the names of those who fail the exam are not posted. And, bar records except for public discipline are not open to the public. Again, this is only for Calif. For other states, I have no clue.

[MonkeyFunk]

94. ah,

thanks.

[shenmue]

87. What do you expect? Snide, catty remarks pretty much *are* the Obama campaign.

I'm still waiting for this "hope" I hear them talk about.

Plausible deniability, anyone? Pass the lousy attitude off to the supporters, then he can turn around and say *he* didn't do it.

:puke:

[JerseygirlCT]

100. They do, it's true. But I thought I remembered hearing that the

DC bar was one of the easier ones. Of course, things could have been different when she took it.

They're tough tests, even the less rigorous ones, in any event. No shame in needing to take one again. But I'm surprised about DC...

[dorktv]

4. Yes, the fact she failed a bar exam shows she is a total idiot who should not even be

a senator.

*rolls her eyes*

[ErnestoG]

8. I'll go with "Should not be President"

[dorktv]

17. I would not. Someone failing a test is not an indication that they will make

a lousy president.

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. Bush has failed the test repeatedly throughout his

academic, economic and presidential history.

I am not looking for a do over..... campaign, vote on war or presidency

[Breeze54]

40. Bush has failed the reading test repeatedly throughout his life!

:P

Like that's any benchmark we should take note of! :rofl:

You're silly or tired! :P

[Ichingcarpenter]

49. No, I'm not silly, I was taking your 'silly season' point

to explain that your logic is flawed.

You equated nominal success academics with success with real entrepreneurs, which Hillary isn't,
and then brushed off the incongruent analogies I pointed out.

You have uneven benchmarks for your candidates.

[davidinalameda]

5. that's hardly a reason to move to Arkansas

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. You pass it the first time?

[Milo_Bloom]

11. Yes, it was rather easy.

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. Who asked you?

[Milo_Bloom]

42. You. Or did you forget the meaning of an open thread.

If you wanted to ask a specific person, a specific question, try the e-mail system.

[Binka]

65. Oh Snap And I Love You Milo

Specific indeed. I can see how you passed the first time. :hi: Two of my kids did too.

[bridgit]

59. What is your area of practice?

[Milo_Bloom]

108. I was an Enterainment Lawyer...

aka... contract lawyer for several years, but I left it to start my own (unrelated) business.

[bridgit]

112. Ah, I was in the music biz, likely shook some of your hands somewhere; asked...

in that my atty is himself a doctor as well, now sits on ethics & practices panels, works for me pro bono (wonderful guy still very rare in this world...confident I'd get a bill if the case was too big :cry:); but also works 'out & about', legally, so as to say :hi:

[dailykoff]

16. I've never flunked it.

And no, I've never taken it, but then I'm not running for the most powerful legislative office on the planet.

[dorktv]

20. She is running for an executive office. She is already in the legislative

branch.

[dailykoff]

33. True but the chief executive executes policy

and clearly has a huge role in shaping it.

[Breeze54]

37. Duh!

:eyes:

[Breeze54]

22. Me neither because I never took it ... just like you!

:P

[Milo_Bloom]

10. Yipes!

DC is a well-known fairly easy one... I know a lot of people who went that route instead of taking CA.

The reality is that the bar exam is fairly easy, you only fail if you #1) Don't study or #2) Psych yourself out and try to find the "trick questions". Truth is there are no tricks, but lots of law students get burned out and chase ghosts.

[WolverineDG]

84. It's a mental & physical endurance test too

That begins to wear on you sometime in the 2nd month of studying. :crazy:

I don't know how it was in the 70's or even now, but in the 90's, if you scored highly on the "Multistate" portion of the bar, you could apply for automatic admission to the DC Bar.

dg

[karynnj]

110. It seems likely that as a Yale law grad and a member of the Watergate

task force, she was over confident and blew off study (your number 1) - especially because it had the reputation of being easy.

I get the impression that she was very intelligent but not brilliant, but worked hard and meticulously in school. There are very few people I would call brilliant - as to me, that involves the creativity to see something in a way that looks at something from a new perspective and generates new solutions.

[Rageneau]

12. While you're bashing her, why not criticize her thick ankles ...?

Or her cackle, or her hairstyle, or her husband, or her dental work?

It's only Hillary, so it's okay to treat her as nasty as we can.

Right?

[Milo_Bloom]

14. SHe did vote for a war, so ... yeah.

[sandnsea]

13. The fact that she hid it is what's disturbing

That's a sign of a very fragile ego and I think it's the reason she surrounds herself with hatchet men. It would actually be in her best interest to lose this thing so she could let her hair down.

[dailykoff]

28. Yes the deception seems to be second nature.

Maybe even first nature.

[rodeodance]

60. Like MICHELE WHO IS HIDING HER DISSERTATION TILL NOV 5

[AngryAmish]

98. Or Hillary always hiding her dissertation

Never disclosed it, ever.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. Dissertation?

It's not like her PhD thesis. It was a senior thesis from her undergraduate work. Trying to dig into someone's undergraduate papers strikes me as a little creepy.

[SoCalDem]

76. Why broadcast your failures? Passing the bar was not a prerequisite to become

Arkansas' first lady..nor the US ' first lady..

I am assuming that she did pass it in Arkansas, and afterwards, got a job, "lawyering"..

It's a hard exam, and not everyone passes it on the first go-round...

It's also possible that she had lots of other things going on in her life, and may not have had the time to prepare for it..lots of people take the first one "cold", in the hopes that they might pass, but if they fail, they have a better idea of just what they need to study up on for the next time..

[MonkeyFunk]

18. What does the bar exam

have to do with a knowledge of policy?

And only an idiot would say she has a poor grasp of policy.

[dorktv]

24. Or someone who thinks that she sucks and nothing will change their

mind about her.

[dailykoff]

27. Policy is law by another name.

I was struck tonight by Obama's facility with policy details and Hillary's surprisingly weak grasp of them, apart from her health care proposal, and she didn't even flesh that out in any but the most sketchy way. I found Obama's explanations clear and persuasive, and Clinton's vague and diffuse.

[Ichingcarpenter]

61. "only an idiot" would not read the report

and "then form a policy' on Iraq.

That is what she did.

[MonkeyFunk]

71. You guys just can't ever stay on topic, can you?

Failing a bar exam the first time in no way indicates one has a weak grasp of policy.

But you guys sure have a weak grasp on logic, don't you?

[depakid]

83. Impressibe, isn't it?

particularly since Obama hasn't exactly thrawled anyone with his policy acumen during the campaign himself....

[Cha]

23. And Obama was Magna Cum Laude and

President of Harvard Law Review..what's your point? :)

[MonkeyFunk]

26. And Clinton was twice

named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 Most Influential Laywers in America. What's your point?

[aein]

29. Graduating magna from HLS is much more impressive. 100 most influentials list is pretty much bought.

[dailykoff]

30. "Influential" is not necessarily "gifted at policy making."

Johnny Cochran was also influential, and in his own right, unlike Hilly.

[Major Hogwash]

52. If she hid those facts about flunking the bar exam and hid her thesis, what else do you think she

would hide?

Bush's secrets?

We need to prosecute Bush after the election and prosecute the entire Bush administration for lying to the American public about the lies they told in the runup to the Iraq War.

Hillary won't do that.

[emilyg]

58. Neither will Obama.

[MonkeyFunk]

73. She didn't tell her friends

she didn't seal the records.

Michelle Obama's thesis is hidden, too.

And if you think Obama's gonna prosecute the Bush administration, you're gonna be severely disappointed should he win.

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. She also didn't read the Iraqi report...

this professor gave her a failing grade on that.

[Cha]

32. The 90 page NIE report that would

have been very beneficial to read before sending our Soldiers off to die or be maimed for life. hilary failed.

[Ichingcarpenter]

34. thank you for the correction on the name of that Term Paper

But, to me, it was part of the exam.

[jlake]

57. Really? Because I think Obama has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

I see him in the Geroge W Bush mold. A figurehead to a dark movement.

[ErnestoG]

63. Second time tonight you likened him to Bush.

I think you have not merely lost your perspective - you have sealed it up in a FedEx package and sent it to Antarctica.

[Buzz cook]

62. First thing Bernstein is a whore

Check the Daily Howler for the skinny on Bernstein and his book "A Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton,"

Second: Where the hell have you been? Attend any Clinton speech and you'll get an earful of policy in detail.
The media love to make fun of Clinton just because of her tendency to get into specifics.

Pull your head out of whatever ass its been in and listen to Clinton's speeches on you tube or Cspan.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

64. Have you taken the DC bar exam?

Asshole.

[TexasObserver]

68. Not surprising. She's not a bright legal mind and never has been.

Her legal career was considerably less impressive than Harriet Miers', and that's being gracious. She was a water girl for Walmart, and little else. That non profit work she did for a few months after law school? That was waiting for Bill to graduate, since she was year ahead of him.

[MonkeyFunk]

88. Twice selected

as one of the 100 Most Influential lawyers in America.

Worked for the House Judiciary Committee shortly after law school. First woman partner of the Rose Law Firm.

From Wiki:

"Rodham maintained her interest in children's law and family policy, publishing the scholarly articles "Children's Policies: Abandonment and Neglect" in 1977<73> and "Children's Rights: A Legal Perspective" in 1979.<74> The latter continued her argument that legal competence of children depended upon their age and other circumstances, and that in cases of serious medical rights judicial intervention is sometimes warranted.<52> An American Bar Association chair later said, "Her articles were important, not because they were radically new but because they helped formulate something that had been inchoate."<52> Historian Garry Wills would later term her "one of the more important scholar-activists of the last two decades",<75> while conservatives said her theories would usurp traditional parental authority,<76> allow children to file frivolous lawsuits against their parents,<52> and considered her work part of legal "crit" theory run amok.<77>"

Go to the site to see the sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton#Marriage_and_family.2C_law_career_and_First_Lady_of_Arkansas

You don't have to like her, but to claim she's not a strong legal mind is just stupid.

[ShortnFiery]

69. I'm going to "come clean" and IMO, concede that HRC's IQ is equal to Obama's

:wow:

However, the difference between the two of them is that unlike HRC who was "The smartest kid in the class," Obama is a "Team Builder." Face it, there are a few blessed individuals who are natural leaders. I glibly referred to this earlier as "He's got Elvis." Obama shines best when he brings us all in to WANT TO help each other.

LEADERSHIP is not *a masculine phenomenon.* I once had the honor of working for a woman light colonel who was blessed with the same natural leadership traits that have been consistently demonstrated by Obama.

In all fairness to HRC, she is a brilliant mind but not a natural leader. Her husband can "turn it on" but I honestly believe, with no malice, Bill Clinton is not a natural leader.

Don't get me wrong - I'm fully aware that "It ain't over yet" but I must give The Clintons their due during this 4th Quarter.

The Clintons are an awesome team who built a MIGHTY DLC Machine but both Ralph Nader and Michael Moore helped me break my mental/emotional "love affair" with their mystique.

[woolldog]

70. I'm an Obama

supporter who has passed my state bar (the first time). And failing the bar means nothing with respect to how intelligent someone is; it has nothing to do with your grasp of policy either. That's complete garbage.

[thesubstanceofdreams]

75. Do we really need this sort of crap?

As an Obama supporter, I hope Clinton supporters will realize that OPs such like this DO NOT represent our views or the way we think the campaign should go.

[still_one]

79. Another Obama supporter agrees with you /nt

[demokatgurrl]

77. As one who also took and failed a bar exam

and passed another one, I can tell you unequivocally that the Bar exam does NOT test grasp of policy or anything even CLOSE to that, or even critical thinking. It tests your ability to memorize and regurgitate large amounts of material, and your test-taking skills.

PERIOD.

[still_one]

80. Edith S. Sampson, also contradicts the inane premise made by the OP /nt

[still_one]

78. I am not a Hillary fan, but your linking not passing the bar, to grasp of policy is not valid

Gosh, I guess that means:

JFK Jr.,Jerry Brown, Pete Wilson, Ed Koch, Edith S. Sampson(First African American Delegate to the United Nations,
and First Black Woman Elected Judge in the U.S.), and many other prominent people must have the same issue if THAT IS YOUR CRITERIA

[madaboutharry]

81. As someone who has actually taken

and passed the Bar Exam, I will tell you this: It is really, really hard. :)

[Hepburn]

95. I have to agree with that.

I found it more physically difficult than mentally difficult. But...I was a typist and I lugged 3 typewriters to the exam each day: One that was the electric one I planned to use, one that was also electric and a back-up in case the first one broke, and a standard manual in case the power went out.

By the time I drove home, I could not stretch my arms all the way out to the steering wheel of my car and had to move the seat up so that the top of my arms rested on my chest. Lugging those 3 typewriters, plus doing things like typing 11 pages on the Evidence exam in one hour, killed my arms and back.

But mentally....I, too, do have to admit that the bar exam was not that tough.

[madaboutharry]

115. Its not that tough only if you're prepared

I knew I passed, but there was a very complicated property question on my exam. That round only 58% passed, which was low.

[WolverineDG]

82. Lots of people flunk the bar the first time around

& go on to become incredible advocates for their clients. I know many who have & it's no badge of shame. In fact, I am impressed that after all that studying & worrying about the damn test, they could pick up the books the day after the results came out to get ready for the next one.

dg

[Mezzo]

85. Obama is the least quoted Pres. of the Harvard Law Review in the history of the school.

Some say it as dumbed down so he could get it. I think it belongs RIGHT ALONGSIDE this post for its merit.

[shenmue]

86. Sigh...

Ad hominem much?

:eyes:

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. Melodrama was enough for Ronald Reagan.

[Hepburn]

90. Speaking as a lawyer who passed the Cal Bar Exam...

...on the first try ~~ all that law school does is teach one how to pass the bar exam. It teaches NOTHING about how to practice law. A good legal secretary is what teaches one to do that. Luckily, I found one about 3 months after I passed and set up my practice or I would have NEVER have found the courthouse let alone known what the hell to do! Bless her heart...she was 71 when she started working for me about 35 years ago. She has long gone to that big secretarial pool in the sky.

Law school is about memorizing the elements to EVERYTHING so one can spew them out on paper as applied to certain facts at the time one takes the bar.

And...IMO, I think most attys know and admit that certain bar exams are very, very hard and certain are nothing in comparison and there are lots of places between these two ends. California, NY, Florida and DC are pretty much agreed to be the hardest bar exams in our country. Arkansas? Ummmm....no comment.

JMHO

BTW: There used to be certain states that with graduation from law school, one received his/her bar ticket. Not sure if that is true anymore, tho.

[Tom Rinaldo]

92. Step outside of your bubble

There many negative things sometimes said about Hillary Clinton, but a failure to strongly "grasp policy" is never on the list. Even her worst enemies nationally in the media and the Republican Party know they would be laughed off the set if they try to press that case. Hillary is known as a policy wonk, because she proves it time and time again. This line of attack is like coming after Kerry for not showing courage in Viet Nam.

[Cameron27]

96. It's a very Rovian attack,

hit her on her strengths, and be petty about it by draggin in her bar exam.

[northernsoul]

97. In fairness, the bar exam is the most pointless exercise ever devised

It's nothing more than a hazing ritual dressed up as a test of legal knowledge and capability - "getting jumped into the gang," if you will.

Having said that, my understanding is that the DC Bar has a relatively high pass rate. I certainly will not judge a candidate based on their bar score.

[nuncvendetta]

102. As a law student, I'm afraid to say she seems to lack solid knowledge of basic legal principles

Even though I don't support Hillary, I've always been one to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intellect. After all, she went to Yale Law. However, as the campaign as progressed, and as someone who is near the top of my class at a law school of similar caliber to Yale, it has become increasingly clear to me that she either 1) does not understand legal principles that anyone who attended a top law school should understand, or 2) does understand them but is being disingenuous in order to dupe the electorate.

One example is the 'plagiarism' thing. The whole normative motivation behind intellectual property law is that we give the IP holder a "monopoly" over their intellectual creation for a period of time and allow them to determine exactly in what way their expression (in the case of copyrights) may be utilized by others. When Deval Patrick outright gave Obama permission to use certain lines of his speeches, he effectively bestowed upon Obama an exclusive license to use that material - and yes, without attribution. Exclusive licenses are used all the time in our economy, whether we're talking copyright or trade dress or trademarks or patents, and Hillary had better appreciate the legitimacy of such "technology transfer." Even if she understands that it's not technically plagiarism as it is legally defined, it is irresponsible of her as a holder of a J.D. to misappropriate that term of art. That's not even getting into the hyprocrisy of her having used expressions crafted by Edwards or Obama WITHOUT attribution - which is definitely more questionable from the copyright standpoint (although obviously no other candidate is going to litigate over it).

Second, her freezing home foreclosures shows that she must've skipped out on her commercial transactions class. The main reason foreclosures are harming the economy at large is not only because people are forced to move out of their homes, but because the stratified bond holders, which include those mortgages in question, are unable to valuate their assets. As long as transactions remain forestalled upon these mortgages (which freezing in effect does), you have a bunch of bonds out there in the economy that are valueless because they cannot be appraised, thus draining millions upon millions of resources out of our monetary exchange. Hillary's plan is expressly designed to appeal to the suffering home owner to the DETRIMENT of the economy at large. It might win her votes, but it is a dangerous strategy. Which is worse - not understanding something or understanding it but crafting contrary policy anyway because it might sound good to people and win her votes, even though in the aggregate it may be harmful? Frankly, I think both are bad. I prefer Obama's plan in this regard because it helps out suffering homeowners, targets the reasons behind why these homeowners found themselves in that situation to begin with in order to prospectively avoid the problem, but also does not suffer from the same moral hazard and free rider inefficiencies as Hillary's plan does.

I'll save the health care stuff for another thread ;-)

[ShortnFiery]

104. Whoa! Sincere thanks for the thoughtful commentary.

This masters level puke also appreciates your use of "stuff" at the end because it makes you appear less geeky. :blush: <complementary assessment with a tweak>

Have a good one. :toast:

[Jersey Devil]

105. good grief - you just jinxed yourself

Good luck on the exam.

[Jersey Devil]

103. I am an Obama supporter, but this is an unfair charge

I have no idea what the DC bar exam might have been like in those days, but generally, across the country, bar exams in the 70s were almost all essay exams and did not have components like true-false or multiple choice like they have for today's exams, together with multi-state exams. They also were tougher exams and in NJ the pass rate was only about 50%. So, as a result, people with very good writing skills often had a distinct advantage on bar exams, often passing when better law school students who were not very good writers would fail.

I passed the first time (NJ - 20 essay questions over 2 days) but I know many very good and very successful lawyers who failed at least once. The trick was to take a review course for the state in which you were taking an exam since much of it depended on a knowledge of state law. Obviously if you went to law school in Conn but took a bar exam in another state (or in DC), unless you took a course to bring you up to snuff on local (state) law you would be at an extreme disadvantage taking the exam. I did that, sat in a lecture hall in the Robert Treat Hotel in Newark for 6 days a week for 5 or 6 weeks listening to robot lecturers and reviewing literally foot high piles of materials until I couldn't take it anymore and threw everything in the garbage a few days before the exam. Maybe Hillary didn't do that or maybe she wasn't a very good writer.

I had a buddy who I clerked with (I was a clerk to a judge in the NJ Superior Court) who failed 4 times before passing, very bright guy but he totally freaked out when taking exams. I saw people taking the exam literally throw up on the steps of building where the exam was given. The pressure of an exam like that after 7 years of college and all their friends and relatives expecting them to pass is just too much for some people. I believe JFK Jr took the NY Bar Exam 3-4 times before passing.

She could not go to court without being a member of the bar after passing an exam though some states did allow law clerks to go to court for certain things under the supervision of a lawyer who was a member of the bar - like for legal services for the poor, which makes me wonder if that is how Hillary got involved in representing poor people in Ark maybe while waiting for her Arkansas bar results.

[DURHAM D]

113. I have a question -

Do you think review courses for the bar were even available back then? I am a little older than Hillary. I have many friends that took the bar back then and don't recall any of them taking a review course. They just studied on their own. Also, none of them took a prep course for the LSATs.

[Jersey Devil]

114. Yes, review courses were definitely available back then

I am the same age as Hillary and took one in NJ. In fact there were two available both in NY and NJ so you had a choice of which review course to take. All my law school friends who took the NY bar exam also took a review course for NY and the same for PA. As I said, if you didn't take a review course you probably were going to fail, at least in NJ and NY.

There was no prepping for LSATs though. I took it on a lark in college and outscored all my friends who convinced me that based on my score I ought to go to law school. Up until that time I wanted to be a teacher.

[DURHAM D]

118. Thanks for your response.

I am from the lower midwest and just couldn't remember anyone taking a review course for the bar back then. I know that even now money is a factor for some.

Do you remember when men who didn't want to take the bar (or didn't pass it) could join the military, serve in the JAG corp and later practice law without taking the bar? I have one friend who is still practicing law (he is 71) and he claims that his entire exam for JAG was a verbal exam and he was asked only two questions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. If You Think For A Second That Her Grasp Of Policy Isn't Strong, You're Insane. She Blows Obama Out

of the water there.

Are you really this mentally skewed as it relates to her? She's amazing with policy. Get a grip.

And oh, on edit, the concept of your OP is retarded.

[dailykoff]

119. That's what I'm saying, yes, because that's what I observed.

Now it may be she's just being purposely vague to avoid discussing her shameful voting record, which would explain that deer-in-the-headlights look she gets when Obama starts talking about Iraq. She STILL hasn't come up with a plausible excuse for that vote, even a fake one.

But I also noticed it when she was discussing health care, supposedly her signature program, last night. I got the strong impression she's not familiar with the details, most likely because she outsourced her policy proposals and really doesn't know what the hell is in them, apart from the pre-scripted sound bytes she purchased along with them.

:shrug:

[woolldog]

120. I don't think she's amazing with policy.

or that she blows anyone out of the water. She seems fine, like the other candidates, but nothing special.

[goodgd_yall]

117. I'll just add to what already has been posted

Many people do not pass their first attempts at a state's bar exam. It also depends on the bar exam. Some have a higher pass rate than others because some are more difficult than others.