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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 01:51 PM
Original message
Two lawsuits and a Supreme Court precedent on the side of the DNC
in determining the Florida delegates' issue. Now it sounds to me like Hillary is going to fight to have them counted.

I have not heard if she will file another lawsuit, so can not speak to that. If she fights for the delegates though the states were sanctioned, though the courts have ruled in the DNC's favor...it will not go down very well at all. I did not really think she would do this.

Here is a review of the lawsuits and the Supreme Court precedent.

First the 1981 Supreme Court decision in favor of the DNC. From Pushing Rope blog.

The DNC Can Refuse To Allow Florida To Have Delegates

The 1981 Supreme Court decision for the case Democratic Party of U.S. v. Wisconsin, 450 U.S. 107 clearly states that the Democratic National Committee can make and enforce the rules on the delegate process.

"The State has a substantial interest in the manner in which its elections are conducted, and the National Party has a substantial interest in the manner in which the delegates to its National Convention are selected. But these interests are not incompatible, and to the limited extent they clash in this case, both interests can be preserved. The National Party rules do not forbid Wisconsin to conduct an open primary. But if Wisconsin does open its primary, it cannot require that Wisconsin delegates to the National Party Convention vote there in accordance with the primary results, if to do so would violate Party rules. Since the Wisconsin Supreme Court has declared that the National Party cannot disqualify delegates who are bound to vote in accordance with the results of the Wisconsin open primary, its judgment is reversed.

It is so ordered."


In Florida the first lawsuit was filed by a Tampa activist, Victor DiMaio.

Tampa activist lawsuit against DNC to be appealed in Atlanta appeals court

TAMPA - The first legal challenge to the Democratic National Committee's refusal to seat Florida's delegates to the party's national convention next year was thrown out of federal court Friday.

Calling the matter "an intra-party dispute," U.S. District Judge Richard Lazzara concluded the arguments made by Tampa-based Democratic voter and political consultant Victor DiMaio contained no legal basis for challenging the national party. Lazzara wrote, "The Supreme Court has consistently recognized that national political parties have a constitutionally protected right to manage and conduct their own internal affairs, including the enforcement of delegate-selection rules and the decision as to which state delegates it will recognize … ."


Then later Senator Bill Nelson filed his own lawsuit against the DNC. His case was quickly dismissed in favor of the national party.

Bill Nelson lost his lawsuit against Dean....on the same civil rights issue Hillary is using now.

The judge told Nelson to sue the State of Florida on the civil rights issue, NOT the DNC.

Hinkle said the Democratic National Committee has a right to set its schedule for primaries. The national party penalized Florida because it broke party rules by jumping the state's primary date ahead to Jan. 29.

To rule otherwise would be a free-for-all with all 50 states, Hinkle said. He gave the plaintiffs the choice to re-file under the voting rights act against the state of Florida if they choose."


Florida's Dan Gelber admitted they did not fight the GOP when they voted for it 115 to 1.

If they had fought the GOP their delegates would have counted.

Many news sites published that what Florida was doing was wrong. Here are four of them. One called Florida a Primary Bully

Time to leave those delegates alone.



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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Republican dirty tricks.
Getting the dems to disenfranchise the Florida voters.

Brilliant :)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I hope you are joking. I laid out the case that FL went right along with them.
However it is your right to ignore facts and act like they don't matter.

:shrug:
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The Republican controled Florida legislature set us up.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No, Florida was on board and working with the GOP since early 2006
Facts matter, truth matters. If Hillary thinks it does not, she will find out if she pursues the delegates. She will have lost not just respect she will lose.

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I am going to kick this because facts matter.
Too many don't want to see the facts about Florida. It is more fun to say someone stole the votes...over and over.

Facts matter.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. As you can see MF some are allergic
to the facts because the facts do not support their candidate. Kick and Rec.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I am picking up on that. Thanks.
.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. kicked and recommended
Hillary IS going to try this, her campaign sent out an email yesterday around 8:30 asking
people to tell everyone about Delegates Hub website.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks for the bump.
This is wrong for her to do this.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. check out TPM - the Clinton strategy now rests on
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thanks, checking that out.
They talk so loosely about an issue that is so important.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. I completely support Howard Dean on this.
Thanks for your detailed analysis and links.

K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Facts don't seem to matter in this case.
They don't matter to Florida's leaders or to her campaign. It like everything goes over the heads.

Here are some reasons I get so upset with my state.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4696134
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You have good reason to be the "mad" in madfloridian!
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am so glad that you are all over this issue.
I hope all is well with you!!!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thanks. I remember your work for Jeff Smith.
I have not seen the movie yet. Do I have to order it to view it? Would be glad to. I heard it would be in IFC or something?
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You have to seet he movie. Howard is in it.
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 03:44 PM by GumboYaYa
We have footage from his visit to St. Louis, the photos you have of me and my wife on stage with Howard.

You can get it on netflix , but if you aren't a member of Netflix PM me and I will send you a copy.

Here is a snippet from the Washington Post review http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101792.html:

While Congress debates what to do about voter fraud, "Can Mr. Smith Get to Washington Anymore?" arrives as a timely reminder that, rather than people voting illegally, our real worry should be getting people to vote at all (and when they do vote, making sure they're counted). More than big money or big family names, Smith's real enemy throughout the campaign is apathy, which Popper captures early in the film with a shot of a doormat reading "Go Away," an image that's intercut with various scenes of the voting public dismissing him, and Smith's own parents telling him he shouldn't run.

Deeply absorbing and moving with the caffeinated speed of Smith's own feisty campaign, "Can Mr. Smith Get to Washington Anymore?" is at once a celebration of small-d democracy and an elegy to it, a portrait that will surely inspire and infuriate viewers. And once they take this particular peek at how the sausage is made, with luck they'll want to start working on a new recipe."



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Just watched the trailer at your link in your sig line...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcROljvtTnk

Absolutely great. I remember I was going to order it and didn't...got sidetracked with so much going on here.

Let me check NetFlix, and I may get back to you. It looks delightful

I think I had two pictures. Here is one.

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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's the rally.
There is some good footage from that day. It was Father's Day. My kids (you can't see them or me, only my wife, from that angle) stood on stage for two hours. They were terrific.

We got so close with Howard and then Jeff. That was a tough year for me.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
60. Thanks Gumbo, I just added Can Mr Smith Get To Washington Anymore?
to my queue..it's sounds really good.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Awesome, let me know what you think of it.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great to see you working so hard to disenfranchise the Fla voters.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. LOL
I know you must be joking.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. A light bulb just went off. She did mean it after all...party rules not her rules.
I really thought it was a misunderstanding but apparently it was true.

Hillary campaign says DNC delegates rules are not the rules of her campaign.

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention.


I guess she meant it.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. "paraphrased"--afraid the exact quote won't get your message across?
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. anamandujano What can you say about madfloridian
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 05:00 PM by UALRBSofL
She lost any credibility when she started this witch hunt months ago. Every post that has an article is accidently paraphrased to leave off the pertinent information to make it look like Hillary said something she really didn't say. It says a lot about her character as well. That said, I posted what actually occurred in specific detail and as such all the blame is put on Howard Dean's shoulders.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I am a she. I consider that a personal attack.
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 04:56 PM by madfloridian
But since I said it out loud, I will probably get deleted while you will remain.

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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Sorry, I'll edit
:)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It was a personal attack. It is time for you to stop. I have saved this thread...
to my hard drive. Then I can prove what is going on.

The people who know I am posting facts should stop letting this go on.

Shame on you. And I am sad that DU is losing its credibility.

I updating the saved thread to my computer.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I save every thread concerning Florida.
And when I see something that I believe isn't accurate I will post what I believe as true. I live in Florida and as such you don't speak for me and when you post things I perceive as not true I counter your statements. If you want to call that a personal attack then you need to grow thicker skin. I have no personal issues with you other then countering your threads that don't represent the truth of what's going on with the DNC and FDP. I'm sorry you feel my countering as personal attacks but in reality this is your problem not mine.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You said it spoke to my character. I posted FACTS.
This is shameful you are doing that. You can not attack me based on the fact that the lawsuits happened.

Here is what you said.

"She lost any credibility when she started this witch hunt months ago. Every post that has an article is accidently paraphrased to leave off the pertinent information to make it look like Hillary said something she really didn't say. It says a lot about her character as well. That said, I posted what actually occurred in specific detail and as such all the blame is put on Howard Dean's shoulders."

No, my credibility is fine, and I intend to keep it that way. You are on the attack toward me.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You attacked my character....here are your words.
"She lost any credibility when she started this witch hunt months ago. Every post that has an article is accidently paraphrased to leave off the pertinent information to make it look like Hillary said something she really didn't say. It says a lot about her character as well. That said, I posted what actually occurred in specific detail and as such all the blame is put on Howard Dean's shoulders."

I posted 3 court rulings. If people let these attacks go on, then this forum no longer has any credibility at all.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. madfloridian, if that's not the case then why do you
keep misrepresenting what is going on between the DNC and FDP. I speak with Thurman's office at least once a week and nothing you have posted in reference to rules and policy between the DNC and the FDP is accurate. The way it looks to me if a person continually posts things that don't exactly state what the FDP/Thurman states is merely misrepresentation of the facts. Call it what you want, but, I call a person as I see them.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I am posting the truth. You must prove I am not. Or else quit the personal attacks.
Floridians have made excuse after excuse. Karen turned the party over to Bill Nelson pretty effectively letting him control things.

I would not have especially cared until I saw the DEC chairs and the state leaders trying to hurt the DNC fundraising.

You think I am lying??? Prove it. Send Karen to argue with me. Or Bill.

It was planned to give Hillary a leg's up going into Super Tuesday.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. I talked to Thurman's office tuesday and I know exactly what the plan is for the delegates
But you would accuse me of not being accurate so I wont even go into explaining it to you. This is my last post on this thread because I'm tired of the back and forth bickering, so, go ahead and flame me, I really don't care.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. There are no Florida delegates. Not now. Florida was sanctioned.
If Karen is working with the Hillary campaign and not the DNC, then it would destroy this party's integrity. The credentials committee will meet in June, I think. They must vote. If Hillary has the most on the committee and forces the issue, then many of us will have decisions to make.

There is no real plan, because in effect there are no delegates.

I have talked to her office before as well. I have talked to Bill Nelson's office. I have talked to the county chairs who tried to hurt the fundraising for the DNC in a vital primary season.

I grew knowing the old time Democrats here, and I see all sides of them. I knew them when they were struggling whether they would run as Dem or Repub.

I have posted nothing but truth. The court rulings agree.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Posts 22 and 23
you are WAY out of your league trying to distort what MF posts as mistatements that it is kind of pathetic. Nice try though.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
48. You joined 1/25/08 and claim madfloridian began a witch hunt months ago? You know NOTHING of the...
good works she has performed on behalf of DU and our party over the years; the tireless research and effort online and off, how she has dedicated countless thousands and thousands of hours fighting to get our country back and to do it within the rule of law.

I've never, in all my many years on DU, ever seen her resort to nasty personal attacks against any member here, despite the fact she may not agree with the opinion or fact posited.

madfloridian may post things we all disagree with from time to time, but that gives no one license to attack her character, period.

She has proven the positive quality and content of her character by and through her actions, posts, opinions, and responses to others over her many years here. Respect is earned, and madfloridian has more than earned the respect of myself and her fellow, long-time, DUers.

You, on the other hand... welcome to DU.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Thank you.
We need to take up for each other when facts do matter.

:hi:
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You're more than welcome... I well remember how we 'deanaics' were relentlessly attacked in 2004,
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 06:09 PM by Melinda
and how you maintained your composure throughout. Thank goodness the one who attacked you above and those of his kind will disappear from DU once we have a nominee; we'll have another 4 years of relative calm. :hug: to you, mad.

Mel
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Back at you...
:hug:

It was very tragic here. A lot of people were hurt.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Chris was on the phone with the campaign, and he took notes.
I am tired of the personal attacks on me over this issue. I have posted facts. That is what the campaign said.

Shame on the people who know I am right for letting you get away with this crap.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Read Here About The DNC/FDP Issues
Florida Law, DNC Rules, Punishments, and Primaries

There is a tremendous amount of information floating around here, much of it wrong, a lot of it right, about Florida and its primary. One very good, but incomplete, diary by RenaRF can be found HERE, entitled "Not Like This." I agree with many of RenaRF's sentiments, but am discouraged by a few missing facts, and by the MANY misunderstandings in the comments. I will attempt, as dispassionately as possible, to add a bit of information to the conversation.

First, Florida's actual LAW, as it stands today. F.S. 103.101 actually sets the date of the Presidential Primary for both parties. To have a new primary would require an act of the Legislature and the signature of the Governor, and both are Republican.

Cross-posted at the Big Orange Blog, so if you want people there to see it this is the place to recommend and comment.



The law states, in relevant part:

(1) Each political party other than a minor political party shall, on the last Tuesday in January in each year the number of which is a multiple of 4, elect one person to be the candidate for nomination of such party for President of the United States or select delegates to the national nominating convention, as provided by party rule.

What does this mean? Well, the easy part is that it means Florida's Democratic Party can not hold another primary, in person or by mail. But what else does it mean? Can Florida's Democratic Party hold caucuses, or a mail-in "straw poll"? Well, that's a tough call. On the one hand, the LAW says the party SHALL have a primary and SHALL elect one person to be the candidate, but there's a caveat, "as provided by party rule." That creates a conflict in the statute, since the statute requires a primary, but the Party rules permit caucuses. The Supreme Court, in California Democratic Party v. Jones, et al., described the supremacy of parties in primaries, under a freedom of association analysis.

Conclusion? Caucuses, or something that looks like them, are probably okay. Ditto straw polls.

But what actually happened? Lots of people have talked about "punishing" Florida, as if it were a 3 year old to be put in timeout. But it is not. It is a tremendously important State filled with millions of dedicated Democrats. How did we get here?

Well, it started with both parties in the legislature looking to move the primary date up some, to have some relevance. Both parties were behind it. No question about it. But then something funny happened. The Republican-controlled legislature not only picked an early date, it picked a REALLY early date, January 29, 2008. From there, let the Florida Democratic Party tell you what happened:


Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party's efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority's throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.



WHOA! It looks like they had the authority, but also had an obligaton. How did they establish a procedure that was (a) broadly representative, (b) reflected the State's preference, and (c) involved broad participation? Simple answer. They didn't. NOT. AT. ALL. But what is this "subsection (b) of this section C"? Funny you should ask, because it doesn't really apply. You see, the "failure" falls under subsection (2), as noted above:


Nothing in these rules shall prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing sanctions the Committee deems appropriate with respect to a state which the Committee determines has failed or refused to comply with these rules, where the failure or refusal of the state party is not subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of this section C. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: reduction of the state's delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of the state's temporary and permanent members to the Standing Committees; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of guests, VIP and other passes/tickets to the National Convention and related functions; assignment of location of the state's delegates and alternates in the Convention hall; and assignment of the state's housing and other convention related facilities.

In other words, the complete ban should not have happened. What should have happened? Funny you ask, because there is a rule about that, too:


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

Let's break that one up, okay?


In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law

Okay, Florida meets that requirement. The date change was a legislative act.


but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary,

Was there an investigation? I don't remember one. Were there hearings? Nope. Not one.


determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules

Is this the stumbling block? There is no question Florida Democrats tried to amend the statute to bring it into compliance with the rule. They lost. However, you might say, the Democrats then voted for the law. Yes, they did, but they were also voting for paper trails. Is the DNC really saying the Democrats, who tried to amend the statute and lost, should have voted against paper trails? Gosh I hope not. This is about one election. Paper trails are about EVERY election. Also, having failed to hold an investigation, they were not in a position to make such a decision, were they?

and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules,

Tell me, if you could, how you act to "prevent legislative changes" OTHER than to attempt to amend the legislation? Really, isn't that what they did, and failed?


the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

"Legislative changes," as is AMENDMENTS.

By all appearances, the DNC Rules Committee did not even try. It simply DEMANDED that Florida have caucuses, or non-binding "primaries," after the early 4, or SCREW FLORIDA.

Could somebody please find that SCREW FLORIDA section in the rules? Because I could not. It ain't there.

What does this mean moving forward? I haven't a clue. The DNC royally screwed the pooch on this one. Obama supporters sure have a good argument the primary that was held should not count, given the DNC's ruling. Clinton supporters have just as good an argument that under the Rules, AS WRITTEN AND STILL IN FORCE, the August 25 action was null and void, therefore revert to the actual rules and count 1/2 the pledged delegates.

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Your state voted the Repugs into office, you can't punish us for your state screwing up elections
And yes, allowing your state to violate rules that were agreed upon by all candidates last September punishes everyone who followed the rules.


I'm sorry your state is so screwed up but I am already forced to live with the consequences of another screwed up Florida election.

Do it right or accept the consequences.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Spot on Johnny!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. We could stand together when people are attacked unfairly...
or we could just let it go. Letting it go is easy. But is harmful.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. Just rerun Florida and Michigan. As Michael Moore said, what we are spending in Iraq
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 05:14 PM by still_one
we can surely afford to rerun those elections, so EVERYONE'S VOTE COUNTS




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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Nelson and Levin said no to a revote.
http://howardempowered.blogspot.com/2008/02/nelson-and-levin-say-no-revotes-in.html

"Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) dismissed the possibility in interviews on Tuesday. Levin and Nelson said caucuses would effectively void the primaries in each of their states, and are pushing to have their delegates receive full voting power at the convention.

“You can’t undo an election with a caucus, especially one where 1.75 million Florida Democrats voted,” said Nelson, who filed an unsuccessful lawsuit last year seeking to overturn the national party’s decision to strip Florida of its delegates.

Levin had similar thoughts. “It would not be practical or fair to hold a caucus,” Levin said. “You’ve got 600,000 people who voted. You can’t just throw out the votes of 600,000 people.” Levin said the state will appeal to have its delegates restored by the party convention’s credentials committee this summer...."

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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Then rerun as a primary
It wasn't an election with one major name on the ballot, unless we are the soviet union


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The FL and MI party bosses said no.
:shrug:
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. I'm with them too! NO Caucuses!!!! re-do on primary ok.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Then rerun as a primary. They say it is too expense, screw them
they all voted for funding the war, they can redo the primaries

Otherwise DON'T seat the delegates

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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. I am guessing they said no
because a revote would not benefit their preferred candidate as the fake one before.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. You are probably right.
They should not have such power. I don't really want a revote at all, but I resent the edicts from Bill Nelson like he owns the party.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I don't live in FL or MI, but WHY can't they rerun the primary
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 07:06 PM by still_one
why are they saying no, unless they really want the party to be torn apart during the Convention

It doesn't surprise me why Congress bent over the last 8 years, and gave bush practically everything he wanted, they didn't follow the DNC rules, and they won't rerun the primary, screw those Senators and representatives then, because as a voter I will remember this in November


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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
42. keep the truth out there. Howard Dean is right!
:hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
55. Referring to Bill Nelson's lawsuit without saying he lost and the DNC won....
is very misleading on Hillary's part. Here is from her interview today:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/clinton-plans-to-press-for-florida-and-michigan-delegates/

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton told Texas Monthly this morning that she plans to push for the delegates from Florida and Michigan to be seated at the Democratic National Convention, contrary to the plans of the Democratic Party.

Asked if it is her intention to press the issue, Mrs. Clinton said: “Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It’s in large measure because both the voters and elected officials in Michigan and Florida feel so strongly about this. Senator Bill Nelson, of Florida, early on in the process, actually sued because he thinks it’s absurd on its face that 1.7 million Democrats who eventually voted would basically be disregarded, and I agree with him about that.”


So legal precedent doesn't matter to her apparently. Here is the ruling from the Florida judge on the Nelson v Dean lawsuit.

Judge dismisses Bill Nelson's lawsuit against the DNC in quick ruling

The Democratic National Committee can penalize the Florida party by stripping the state of its convention delegates because it is holding an early presidential primary, a federal judge ruled Wednesday.

U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle ruled in favor of the DNC in a lawsuit by Florida congressmen Bill Nelson and Alcee Hastings. Nelson and Hastings had argued that state Democrats were being illegally penalized for the state having the primary earlier than national rules allow.

But Hinkle said that political parties have a First Amendment right to set their own rules and enforce them. The national party did that, which means that Florida will not have a say in picking the Democratic nominee.


There has been a lot of posting about concerns about the supporters of Obama. I find that terribly demeaning.

Here is a candidate expressly going against the party rules, saying the rules of the party do not apply to her campaign

The deliberate breaking of rules for one's own benefit troubles me greatly. It troubles me far more than a few over-zealous Obama supporters.

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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Fuck the party rules! Let's have some concern for the voters for once! All 1.7 million!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Way to go. Rules are not meant for her.
Got it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. If all I could do was say "f*** party rules"....I would be ashamed.
If I could not post something more substantive, I would wait until I could.

There must also be a website that is teaching people how to say "f*** the DNC", because it seems to be a theme here.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
56. It would be smarter on behalf of the DNC to try to settle an agreement. They
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 09:54 PM by demo dutch
would't want upset the Florida voters any further, because they will need Florida whether they like it or not. It's all a very touchy subject down here since 2000, and people are extremely pissed off at the DNC, the FL Dem Party and soforth with the current situation. Personally I'm mad as hell!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Shift the blame off Hillary. Good job. That is the pattern here.
Her supporters express so much concern about Obama supporters, but they simply do not care that Hillary is going against the rules to get those delegates.

It truly boggles the mind.

The credentials committee will meet this June, I think. Dean only has 25 members, the others come in large part from Hillary and Obama folks.

If Hillary gains control of the committee, and if her supporters do this.....it will be very damaging.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. Now that Nader is in, The DNC better reconsider fix the FL/MI fast!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
63. Politico feeding false info, just like all media here in Florida.
The Florida Democrats were in on it from the beginning. They were not victims. They voted for it 115 to 1 and worked with the Republicans. Jeanne Cummings is simply not telling the truth in this article. It is being spun terribly still. Not a single Florida leader has said we were wrong to help push the bill along.

Not a single Florida Democratic leader has been honest. It is making me sick to see stuff like this keep on every day. One statement she makes is a flat out lie. She says Florida Democrats united against the GOP on this issue. That is just infuriating to hear a supposedly credible journalist say that. I just want to cry.

How could she write something like that and no one counter here in the media?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8584.html

"If Florida Republicans hadn’t imposed an illicit January primary on their Democratic brethren, those voters would be gearing up now for a March 11 showdown that likely would have been the final contest of this year’s dramatic and historic primary season.

Instead, both states have become the delegate-rich black sheep in the Democratic family, simultaneously shunned and coveted by the presidential candidates, unsure whether delegates will have seats at the party’s grand banquet this summer in Denver.

Michigan Democrats swaggered down this wayward path with their eyes wide open. But Florida Democrats seem the pawn of more calculating court players, yet they will still suffer the consequences of gamesmanship that could harbor trouble in November for the entire party.

Democrats here united against Republican legislation changing the primary date. But now they are divided into Clinton and Obama camps at a time when they should be banding together and shoring up their fall defenses against a long history of voting irregularities, confusion and intimidation, said state Democratic Party Chairman Karen Thurman."

That is not true.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
65. Thank You...Again! Madfloridian...
for keeping me up to date. I would have no idea what was happening in Florida without your information. I'm still stunned by the Nevada lawsuit.,
http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.


Debate over location of Nevada caucus in court
Thursday, January 17, 2008
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/247770-3/National/Debate_over_location_of_Nevada_caucus_in_court/
LAS VEGAS (AP) - A last-minute federal court battle over caucus rules demonstrates just how important a tight three-way Democratic presidential contest in Nevada has become in the battle for momentum headed into Super Tuesday's votes.
At issue in a federal court hearing Thursday is whether Democratic caucuses will be held in nine casinos along the Las Vegas Strip. The special locations were designed to make it easier for housekeepers, waitresses and bellhops in the state's biggest industry to caucus at midday near their jobs rather than returning home to neighborhood precincts.
The rules were unanimously approved by the state Democratic party last March and ratified by the Democratic National Committee in August.But last Friday, six Democrats and a teachers union, which has ties to the Clinton campaign, sued to shut the sites on grounds they allocate too many delegates to one group. Of roughly 10,000 delegates to Nevada's presidential nominating convention, more than 700 could be
selected at casino caucuses, depending upon turnout, which could make them more valuable than some sparsely populated Nevada counties, the lawsuit said. Four plaintiffs are on the committee that approved the sites.

The DNC petitioned to join the suit on behalf of the state party Tuesday.
-------------------------------------------------------
By Monday, Bill Clinton was defending the lawsuit. "I think the rules ought to be the same for everybody," the former president told high school students near Las Vegas. The Culinary Union circulated a less subtle message on fliers to members: "Backers of Hillary Clinton are suing in court to take away our right to vote in the caucus." It's airing the same message in Spanish-langauge radio ads.
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