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How Much Damage Will Clinton Do Before She Folds?

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Paul Rogat Loeb Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:36 PM
Original message
How Much Damage Will Clinton Do Before She Folds?
In the wake of ten straight losses, Clinton's going to need some miracles to win, and Mike Huckabee's already ahead of her in line for divine intervention. But the question is how much damage she'll do to Obama and the Democratic chances before she quits.

If the fight goes to the convention, we know the answer: Unless she totally routs Obama in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania, her sole remaining path to the nomination depends on convincing the superdelegates to overturn the will of the voters, and convincing the credentials committee to honor the problematic Michigan and Florida elections. So she'll have to practically destroy the party to save it, or more accurately to save herself. Assuming a possible breaking sex scandal doesn't bring down McCain, he already beats Clinton by 12 points in the latest poll, while Obama defeats him by 7. If the young voters, independents, and African Americans who Obama's enlisted in droves stay home in disgust come November, Clinton's chances would be slim to none.

But she still can do real damage to Obama with her negative attacks in the remaining primaries, particularly in swing states like Ohio. Recent match-ups show Obama a solid victor in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Virginia, and Oregon, and dead even in Ohio, while Clinton goes down to defeat in all of them. But depending on how negative she gets and how long the primary battle continues, she could cost the Democrats the election by forcing Obama to spend his time responding to an endless succession of petty attacks, and by giving the Republicans ready-made talking points, like Hillary's comment that only "one of us is ready to be commander in chief."

The potential damage is magnified if you count Clinton's surrogates. At the Youngstown, Ohio rally following Clinton's Wisconsin defeat, International Association of Machinists President Tom Buffenbarger called Obama supporters "latte-drinking, Prius-driving, Birkenstock-wearing, trust fund babies." That's despicable rhetoric, echoing the worst Limbaugh/Fox myths about limousine liberals, while it dismisses the majority of union members who just backed Obama in the Wisconsin and Virginia primaries, or the members of unions like SEIU, The Teamsters, and the United Food and Commercial Workers, who just endorsed him. It also happens to totally steal its language from the sleazy "latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New York Times-reading" anti-Howard Dean ads of the right-wing Club For Growth, that helped give us the disastrous candidacy of John Kerry.

If repeated enough, though, those myths have the potential to stick. Clinton supporters have just created a new "527" political committee, which while technically independent and issue-oriented, is explicitly designed to allow Hillary supporters to evade the standard $2300 donation limits. The group aims to get contributions of $100,000 or more from as many as 100 Hillary donors, so they can pour $10 million in ads into the next round of critical races. Whether or not this is legal, and that's arguable, no other candidate has done anything remotely similar in this election. And since the ads have no checks of accountability, they'll be as nasty as their backers decide.

Between Clinton's actions and those of her surrogates, they might just stigmatize Obama so much that some of her supporters stay home in November, instead of voting for him. They'll also encourage Republicans and independents who've been crossing over to support Obama do the same, or even vote for McCain despite his embrace of Bush's disastrous policies. I think Obama will still win, so long as his supporters do everything possible to make that happen. But Hillary's attacks will plant the seeds of doubts. And these will diminish the magnitude of Obama's likely victory just enough to make far harder for him to pass the major changes we need.

Clinton's attacks could also make a difference in down-ticket races. Right now, Obama mobilizes huge new constituencies that could elect a wave of new Democratic Senators, Congressional representatives, governors and legislators. But if Clinton manages to damage his appeal sufficiently, he will become far less of an asset even if he still wins. Plus the longer she remains in the race, the more he has to spend money responding to petty attack ads like one in Wisconsin where she accused him of avoiding debates, although he'd already participated in 18 and had two more coming up. It also means, as Tom Edsdall has pointed out, that the Democratic National Committee risks getting so starved of cash because it's all getting diverted to the nomination fights, that the DNC can't develop the critical grassroots infrastructure to implement its 50-state strategy.

Hillary may give up if she fares poorly in Ohio and Texas. Bill intimated recently that she had to win both or she was likely done. But she's talked of fighting all the way to the convention, as have her key strategists, so it's at least possible that she could keep the race in limbo until less than 10 weeks before the November election, making it far harder for Obama to focus on defeating McCain.

One solution, ironically, could come from the superdelegates. They were established originally as a conservative force in the Democratic Party, a bulwark against grassroots insurgencies like McGovern. In 1984, they actually handed the nomination to Walter Mondale, for his disastrous candidacy, despite Gary Hart's lead in elected delegates. But they also have an ostensible mandate to consider the Party's greater good, and if they acted in this fashion, they could play a key constructive role.

Suppose a critical mass of superdelegates did what 400,000 petition-signers asked them to do in a MoveOn/Democracy for America ad that just ran in USA Today—and pledged to honor the will of the voters? Suppose they announced in advance that they'd support whichever candidate had more elected delegates going into the late August convention? Suppose they also came up with a joint solution to the Michigan and Florida mess, where these states lost their delegates by violating a Democratic Party agreement on when states could hold their primaries? It would be a travesty to validate their sham elections given that the candidates couldn't even campaign in Florida, that Obama and Edwards had pulled their names from Michigan ballot, and that Clinton herself told New Hampshire Public Radio that her staying on the Michigan ballot was irrelevant because Michigan’s vote “is not going to count for anything.”

But what if the superdelegates acted now, to make clear that they will not validate those two elections as they stand, and that they'll encourage their colleagues on the Credentials Committee to do the same? As an alternative, they could urge those two states to do what the DNC has already suggested, and rerun their elections as caucuses. Yes, this would cost some money and effort, but if the experience of the states that have held them is any guide, it would also offer a major chance for the party to mobilize and engage new supporters, and it would bring participants together in a way that reminded them of the values they shared in common. If the two state parties, both dominated by Clinton supporters, still refused to go along, the superdelegates could also offer the alternative of simply seating Clinton-Obama delegates 50-50, to make it a dead wash. But they need to make clear that Clinton won't be able to pull out a last-minute victory by gaming the rules.

Facing a relatively united bloc of precisely those superdelegates that Clinton still hopes to win, I suspect she'd be far more likely to quit, and do far less damage while still in the race. Key party elders like Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi are already working to ensure a convention process that pulls the Party together, rather than splitting it apart. They and others might play an additional role by speaking out against destructive negative campaigning (whether by Clinton or her surrogates), and making clear that if this goes too far, she will lose their support.

Were Hillary running less of a scorched-earth campaign, it could continue onto the convention without major damage. But she's pursued this approach from the moment Obama emerged as a serious challenger, and seems only to be reaffirming it more in recent weeks. That means that if Democrats really want to avoid a divisive fight, they'd do well to unite around Obama now. He just got the endorsement of the 6-million member Change to Win Coalition (and individual member unions like SEIU, the United Food and Commercial Workers, UNITE/HERE, and the Teamsters). The United Steel Workers, a national social justice leader, initially endorsed John Edwards, and will make a decision at their next board meeting. It's time for the other major industrial unions and progressive organizations to commit too, or to reconsider their earlier support for Clinton.

That's also true of prominent individuals, like Edwards. In fact, I originally supported him, and gave him more money than I ever had to any previous candidate. But it's now well overdue for him to encourage his supporters to back the legitimate inheritor of his quest for change. Maybe Clinton will still make an improbable comeback, but the longer she keeps campaigning, the more attacks and divisiveness we'll see. The more party leaders speak out to prevent this from happening, the less risk that she'll create lasting damage in her desperation to hold onto a prize that's now almost certainly slipped away.


Paul Rogat Loeb is the author of The Impossible Will Take a Little While: A Citizen's Guide to Hope in a Time of Fear, named the #3 political book of 2004 by the History Channel and the American Book Association. His previous books include Soul of a Citizen: Living With Conviction in a Cynical Time. See www.paulloeb.org To receive his articles directly email sympa@lists.onenw.org with the subject line: subscribe paulloeb-articles
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. that's one person's opinion...only an opinion, not truth nt
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Damage!?!?!?!?! All people have to remember about MCNUTT is that
he is for a 100 yr. war! Ding!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. YES
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was an Edwards supporter, I support Obama now...
and I find this sickening.

Just as sickening as those who felt that Hillary was "owed" the nomination.

It's "well overdue" for Edwards to support Obama? Obama is "the legitimate inheritor of his quest for change"? I call bullshit on all of this.

Your entire argument is anti-democracy -- Hillary should drop out because her candidacy is harming another candidacy. I called Bull on Hillary's supporters who said that about Obama months ago, and I'm saying it to you now, sir. Your argument is not a decent argument.

Obama falsely characterized a union ad in Iowa. He dishonestly presented it as some kind of vile attack ad run by a shady 527. The ad itself was innocuous; it supported Edwards, but it was in no way a negative ad. "Ask the candidates what their plans are," the ad concluded. And Obama, day after day, hammered Edwards about this 527 ad. He played into all the right-wing stereotypes about unions, helping cement the image of unions as sleazy purveyors of back-room deals. Helping spread those stereotypes.

Why should the unions owe him ANYTHING?

Why should Edwards owe him anything?

Edwards didn't just cry for change. He cried for helping the poor. He cried for creating greater equality. He cried for improving health care. Hillary has championed each of these causes. So does Obama, although less so, and his dishonest characterization of health care mandates is one reason I needed to hold my nose while caucusing for him. Edwards wasn't just looking for "change" -- he was looking for specific changes, and Obama is no champion of these specific changes.

No one is ever obligated to vote for someone, Sir, or to endorse them. Your entire argument reeks of desperation. America remains a democracy, no matter what those who believe in "legitimate inheritors" may believe.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. I'm torn on your argument.
It's not about harming another campaign. Its about thinking of the best interests of the party, and the country.

Do I think we're there yet? No I don't. But if Hillary loses in TX and/or OH then I DO think that it becomes a question of what is best for the party and country going forward. If its time to - in the interests of party and country - accept the inevitable and begin the process of helping to unite the party and start better organizing for the general.

I don't think anyone who thinks about these kinds of things is some sort of terrible person. I believe that above the personalities in the race (both of which are running on virtually identical platforms) is the most important issue: putting a democrat in the white house.

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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Damage???
Bullshit.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. If Hillary wins the nomination without entering the convention
with more pledged delegates (and leaving FL and MI out)... yes, there will be significant damage.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Political struggle is good. Let them fight it out.
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 05:30 PM by bemildred
It gets the public interested and involved in politics. That's a good thing.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. I thought it was good
The more negative the process becomes, the more damaged our nominee will be in the general.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. NONE. She is an asset to the party, and an asset to America.
This circular firing squad shit is getting ridiculous.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Looks to me like she's the one doing 80% of the firing
Change you can xerox? O-bomber? Bringing up that dude on Hardball? :shrug:
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. She is doing fine!
And you know what? All this negative talk will make all the Folks out there, like me, who is still undecided, choose the underdog! That is just what we do. They are both Fine Candidates!
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Thepricebreaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. How? What has she done? Asset to who? n/t
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Use your seach icon--lots of posts about her accomplishments. stop being lazy
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I Predict She Will Destroy Most Of
downtown Tokyo.
...No, wait, that was Godzilla.

Actually, I think she is only hurting herself now.
I feel sorry for her as a human being who is about
to suffer the loss of a dream, but the voters are
making it clear that she is not a part of what WE want
in a leader.
OTOH, I'm overjoyed that the "Clinton Machine"
and the DLC are being neutered.

The GOP doesn't need her attack lines.
It's a false premise.
They have their own.

Their probable line of attack will be
to get the media asking:
"Are Americans ready to vote for a Black President"?
Then they will try to provide the answer with all sorts
of anecdotal "evidence", trying to plant a seed of doubt
in our national consciousness.
After they steal it via Diebold Voting© they will point
to all the pre-election questions they put in play.

My hope is it will be toooo big a margin to steal.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Predict ?---your crystal ball has lots of cracks in it. Get yourself a new one and try again.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. She's just making herself seem desperate. Her attacks won't stick.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. what if Obama had 10 straight losses like Hillary?
Isnt it odd that the media isn't asking Hillary why she doesn't drop out?
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. If she loses TX or OH on March 4th I think she should step down...
I believe that will be general consensus at that point.

I think she'll lose both and there will be no question at that point.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. these are excellent points
she's right, she and Barak "will be just fine", but if she really cares about the state of the nation better start behaving appropiately. This election is too crucial for pettiness and trying to win at all costs.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. Divisiveness is caused by posts like YOURS: "the more attacks and divisiveness we'll see."
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 05:33 AM by rodeodance
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think she's fine unless she loses in TX and/or OH - if she stays in after that, its ego
and not the best interest of the country or the party.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
23. Excellent post.........I really do believe that Texas and Ohio may be
the end of the line.....

But yes, you are right about the damage that it can cause if it goes on much further.

Obama is a candidate of a lifetime, and history is being made.
But, it is a great day, still!

Cheers and Thanks! :toast:
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. I agree. She will drop out after losing Ohio and Texas.
Doesn't even have to be by large margins... she will lose.
Then she will HAVE to drop out.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
24. Hardly a week goes by without someone quitting DU, in disgust over the Obama supporters' smears.
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 06:39 AM by Perry Logan
Now THAT'S damage.
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I know you see only one side as evil, Perry, but the ones I know who have quit...
...have been because of no particular candidate's supporters, just the frustration of incivility and the intimidation factor.

It is the responsibility of us all to have a bit of respect for each other.
If you had been here since 2001, you would have seen true community during very dark times, when it was actually dangerous to speak openly in front of family or co-workers. People needed some online comfort, and we helped each other get through these times.

That is why these childish games hurt so much.

I know you never reply to me, but I can only hope you at least read and think about my posts to you.
I have tried to reach out in a friendly way, even though you are pretty hard core.
We probably share many of the same goals, and think it is the mature thing to do - but I can't say I have seen anything more than one liners in the year or so you have been here.

kind of a shame.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. She will destroy NY City,
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
27. Wow, this is disappointing coming from you
"Legitimate inheritor"????

If Obama is the true "legitimate inheritor," he should be able to win decisively without Hillary (and Edwards) bowing down to him.

Gack. This kind of talk makes me sick.
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rosetta627 Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Excellent article
Good analysis by Paul Rogat Loeb.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. she'll fight until they drag her cold lifeless corpse off the podium
She wants power more than anything.

I don't really support either candidate over the other at this point, but it appears to me that Clinton has no straightforward chance of winning the nomination. If somehow she manages to manipulate the Florida and Michigan situations and superdelegates to "win," she'll probably lose in the GE.

How much damage that fight will do is very hard to say. It seems to me the "Democratic" Party is seriously damaged already. It has abandoned its core principles in its relentless quest for the "center." It has become a soulless, direction-less Corporate-lite Party that, absent the transient current widespread hatred of bush, neither inspires nor motivates the population to any particular agenda. The party could, and probably will, win the Presidency this year. The rub is then they'll have to lead and the current party represents precious little by way of real change from the corporatocracy that king george has built.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. I agree with your points about the damage Clinton is likely to do and that she/they
need to be encouraged to go away quietly. The party would be screaming for Obama's head if he were in the same position and still "soldiering on". I disagree about Edwards. I think his support or endorsement has long since lost any meaning, given that he hasn't been able or willing to voice his opinion up to now and given all the catering the other two have been expected to do.

It would now seem somehow disingenuous, and certainly not courageous.
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R_M Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
31. Gee, Howard Dean didn't think that this battle was bad at all.
He said the Democrats needed to "toughen up" and that this was good practice for the future.
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blocker Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. Her intentions are clear
she's trying to destroy Obama no matter what, i'm sure her vote will go to her buddy Mccain, thats how twisted she is!
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. We'll have to build the party back up again after Hillary is finished
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