It is a shame that progressive blogs have led the charge in demonizing Hillary

[Karmadillo]

Nice post by Big Tent Democrat.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/22/174547/976

What Digby Said About Hillary
By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST
Tags: (all tags) Share This:
By Big Tent Democrat

People wonder why I spend so much time defending Hillary Clinton from unfair and sexist attacks in the Media and unfortunately, progressive blogs, including, maybe especially, the A-List blogs. I do not support her. I wish she would not have run and put herself through this. But Digby captures it:

The reasons she didn't go for the jugular is that she knows it doesn't work for her and, contrary to popular myth, she won't do or say anything to win. I know that's shocking to those of you who are convinced that Clinton is a monster, but it's true. Her campaign has not been, by any historical standards, a negative or nasty one. She has stated repeatedly, and again last night, that the party would be unified and in light of the fact that she is losing, that remark takes on a different character -- she will not turn the Democratic party inside out just for the fun of it or greatly damage the front runner in some quixotic quest for power. (It's hard to believe that anyone but Ann Coulter would ever believe she would do such a thing, but there you have it.)

Her final comment was gracious and heartfelt . . . This is a person of maturity and depth and one of whom most Democrats in this country are actually quite proud.

It is a shame that progressive blogs have led the charge in demonizing this fine person who has dedicated much of her life to progressive causes. I am not sure I will ever get over what some have written about her. The unfairness, spite, falsehoods, nastiness and sexism demonstrated will be hard to forget. I imagine I am not the only person who feels that way.

more...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. It's a shame she's given them good reason.

[rodeodance]

back it up or leave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Well, shit...

IWR, Bush enabling, censorship, bankruptcy bill, disparaging MLK, playing the 9-11 fear card, hypocritical "plagiarizing" charges, and implying Obama is a terrorist.

:shrug:

[Sparkly]

27. Many Democrats have similar voting records.

And they aren't demonized.

As for "disparaging MLK, playing the 9-11 fear card, hypocritical "plagiarizing" charges, and implying Obama is a terrorist," I don't think hyperbole helps your case. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Most democrats aren't running for president against a more progressive opponent.

And I wish it were hyperbole.

[Sparkly]

35. On policy, they're virtually identical.

If anything, her proposals go slightly further.

I don't think EITHER ONE of them should be demonized.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Except when it comes to the things I just mentioned.

[Sparkly]

38. Which policy positions did you mention?

Which of their proposals are significantly different, as you see it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Well, there's the Iraq War.

It's pretty much the big enchilada.

[Sparkly]

47. How are their policy positions different?

The proposals look about the same to me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. Clinton was for it, Obama was against it.

Listen, if you want to pretend the whole thing didn't happen, and that it's not an issue, that's fine.

But don't expect me and the progressive blogs to feel the same way.

[Sparkly]

53. By "policy positions" or "proposals," I'm in the present tense.

Listen, if you want to pretend the present tense is nonexistent, that's fine.

But don't expect me and like-minded progressives to feel the same way.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Why can't she do what John Edwards did, and say 4 little words about her vote for the IWR?

"It. Was. A. Mistake."

[Sparkly]

125. I dunno.

I don't care. I don't need four words -- I need action, and both she and Obama are proposing the same thing. That's my point.

I'd also point out that Dodd, Kerry, Biden, and a whole lot of other Democrats who voted the same aren't demonized as she is.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. Anyone who cast that vote and now opposes the war is going to need to explain it. Kerry proved that.

I think that was the great unseen error going into Kerry's campaign last time, that along with the idea that his "war hero" status made him impervious to attack; and I supported him in the Primaries. My mistake- in retrospect, I think Dean would have been the stronger candidate.

As for Biden, Biden was my last choice out of all of them, even after Hillary. Specifically for his neo-con apologia, although his asinine RAVE act didn't help. I was under the impression Dodd was a little more forthcoming with acknowledgment that the IWR was a clusterfuck of a vote, but I could be mistaken. Had he come anywhere close to the nomination, it would be an issue with him, too.

[Sparkly]

140. My sole point: They aren't demonized as she is.

So if that's all it (supposedly) boils down to, it's a poor excuse.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. I can't speak for anyone besides myself- I'm not "demonizing" her, I'm just supporting Obama.

I said early on that I thought one of the most important things we could do this year was NOT run someone who voted for that stupid war. The person I had in mind never ran, unfortunately.

I've always liked Hillary- but I think she's made some bad moves since entering the Senate, and a lot of them look like craven political calculation. Surely, anyone who made that vote for the IWR I think is guilty of the same on that point- if you want to see true profiles in political courage, look at the list of Democrats in the Senate who didn't vote for the thing.

And I think Hillary hasn't made a particularly good case for why she should be the nominee; her campaign, particularly early on, seemed to rest on proclaiming front runner status and then expecting the voters to line up obediently behind the pre-ordained 'conventional wisdom' that she had it in the bag.

Certainly, a fair measure of her supporters around here spent a lot of time trying to bludgeon the rest of us into accepting her inevitability train.

But none of that amounts to "demonizing" her. She's not a demon. Both she AND Obama are smart, capable, and a shitload better than the alternative. If she wins the nomination I will support her enthusiastically.

[Sparkly]

190. No problem there.

The OP was about demonizing her, and this discussion started with a claim that she'd given people "good reason" to do so.

Of course, deciding not to vote for her -- for your reasons or others -- is something different than that.

"Both she AND Obama are smart, capable, and a shitload better than the alternative."

I agree! :hi:

[PassingFair]

139. None of them are POTUS, either. n/t

[Sparkly]

141. Fine. But they aren't demonized the way she is.

That's my only point.

[PassingFair]

193. Kerry was "demonized" WAY beyond the objections raised to Hillary.

You must not have been here for much of the 03 primary season.



IWR Yes voters had a BIG problem then.

They still do.


Any criticism leveled at Hillary is "demonizing" now?
Can't insult "The Lady" now, can we.

[BlackVelvet04]

158. She DID.....

I heard her the other night say it in an interview.

what she isn't doing is groveling and that's what you guys can't stand.

[Warren DeMontague]

169. Got a link? Also, I wouldn't expect her to "grovel". What I haven't appreciated is the expectation

that she's somehow automatically entitled to the nomination, the irritation and outrage so many in the Hillary camp seem to have that anyone, particularly this young upstart, had the nerve to get in the way of her inevitability train.

If she wins the nomination I will support her, of course, but she hasn't done a particularly good job of convincing many of us that she ought to be the nominee. "You better support her 'cuz she's going to win anyway" isn't a particularly inspiring campaign credo. That should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention.

[jackson_dem]

167. Because it would hurt her in the general

Besides, apologizing didn't do anything for Edwards in the primaries. He got 32% in Iowa in 2004 and 30% this time, 12% in New Hampshire in 2004 and 17% this time.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. First off, most Americans think the war was a bad idea. Beyond that, your post illustrates perfectly

The problem many of us have had with HRC since she got to the Senate.

We're talking about quite possibly the worst foreign policy blunder in our Nation's history. We're talking about a pre-emptive war launched on a country that had never attacked us.

I don't give a shit about the political calculations, whether they're the political calculations which led so many of our Senate Democrats to vote for that turd, or the politcal calculations that prevent HRC from admitting it was a mistake. I want my leaders to do what is right. Period.

And the reality is that NOT having a cogent answer for why she was "for the war before she was against it" (remember that line?) is going to be a tougher sell in the general far more than apologizing for that vote ever could be.

[pnwmom]

182. She has said that she wouldn't have voted the same way if she had known

that Bush would ignore the restrictions on the IWR, and if she had known that he was lying about the WMD's. Why isn't that enough?

[JTFrog]

187. Because she voted for war.

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0303-23.htm

See Hillary Run (from Her Husband's Past on Iraq)
by Scott Ritter

Senator Hillary Clinton wants to become President Hillary Clinton. "I'm in, and I'm in to win," she said, announcing her plans to run for the Democratic nomination for the 2008 Presidential election. Let there be no doubt that Hillary Clinton is about as slippery a species of politician that exists, one who has demonstrated an ability to morph facts into a nebulous blob which blurs the record and distorts the truth. While she has demonstrated this less than flattering ability on a number of issues, nowhere is it so blatant as when dealing with the issue of the ongoing war in Iraq and Hillary Clinton's vote in favor of this war.

This issue won't be resolved even if Hillary Clinton apologizes for her Iraq vote, as other politicians have done, blaming their decision on faulty intelligence on Iraq's WMD capabilities. This is because, like many other Washington politicians at the time, including those now running for president, she had been witness to lies about Iraq's weapons programs to justify attacks on that country by her husband President Bill Clinton and his administration.

"While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq," Senator Clinton said at the time of her vote, in a carefully crafted speech designed to demonstrate her range of knowledge and ability to consider all options. "I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998."

Hillary would have done well to leave out that last part, the one where her husband, the former President of the United States, used military force as part of a 72-hour bombing campaign ostensibly deemed as a punitive strike in defense of disarmament, but in actuality proved to be a blatant attempt at regime change which used the hyped-up threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction as an excuse for action. Sound familiar? While many Americans today condemn the Bush administration for misleading them with false claims of unsubstantiated threats which resulted in the ongoing debacle we face today in Iraq (count Hillary among this crowd), few have reflected back on the day when the man from Hope, Arkansas sat in the Oval Office and initiated the policies of economic sanctions-based containment and regime change which President Bush later brought to fruition when he ordered the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

------

Scott Ritter served as a former Marine Corps officer from 1984 until 1991, and as a UN weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 until 1998. He is the author of several books, including "Iraq Confidential" and "Target Iran". He also co-authored "War on Iraq" with William Pitt.

[pnwmom]

188. Thanks, this proves that she intended the IWR only as a means

to mandate unfettered inspections.

Bill Clinton's containment policy was working, insofar as it had caused Hussein to abandon his WMD's. Hillary didn't vote for Bush to go to war on Iraq, she voted for mandated UN inspections. Bush dropped the containment policy, he violated the terms of the IWR, and he's the only one responsible for the war.

[JTFrog]

189. And that proves you either didn't read the whole thing or didn't understand it. /t

[pnwmom]

207. Just because I disagreed with the writer's conclusion doesn't mean

I failed to understand the argument he was trying to prove.

[JTFrog]

208. What do you base your disagreement on? He was witness to events first hand, both in Iraq and in the

Clinton administration. Do you object to the source, the information provided, or just merely choose to disagree?

Her statement basically said that she knew the administration wanted the power to use force, but she didn't think they could get it yet, or ever, unless they used the same tactics as her husband of calling for "unfettered" inspections. Her husband had tried to get the weapons inspectors to lie about the WMD threat in 1998. All this sound familiar? If she was misled, she is by far the most naive woman in American politics.

[pnwmom]

209. I disagree with his conclusion, not his information. n/t

[creeksneakers2]

103. The unfairness, spite, falsehoods, nastiness and sexism

Were not necessary to make the point about Iraq.

[demo dutch]

123. Maybe for you, the rest of the country has moved on, they just want to get out at this point.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

128. and Iran next....... n/t

[Sparkly]

131. You're predicting the future now?

What do you think BushCo is going to do re:Iran, exactly, based on K/L? I never understood the point of K/L and still don't (don't think it provides nor removes anything that wasn't already there). I think it was political maneuvering that won't have any particular effect one way or another.

The main point, in the present tense: HRC and Obama have the same proposals regarding Iran, as well.

It seems half the argument (or excuse) for demonizing her is five years in the past, and the other is a prediction about the rest of BushCo's term. Meanwhile, the two really have no substantive differences on policy positions.

[Dems Will Win]

112. Yeah the biggest difference is you can't trust her but you can trust him

IMHO

[Sparkly]

126. I trust her.

I trust them both. :shrug:

(Edit: To the extent I trust any politician.)

[rodeodance]

150. I trust her pragmatic approach.

[Straight Shooter]

210. "A more progressive opponent." Bwahahahahhahaha!!!

Good one.

Wait and see, wait and see.

[UALRBSofL]

31. rodeodance the really sad thing about it is

They seem to eat there own. It's really sad to think they would go after one of there own instead of someone like McCain or Huckabee. But, some of these people have no concept of how damaging it can be and how the general public tend to believe it like it's the truth.

[rodeodance]

50. you are right about that. And it is Magnified over and over--copycating.

[demo dutch]

124. The left in tha sense is equal to the far right. Not much better than the Rush crowd!

[rodeodance]

132. extreems on both ends are dangerous to our country.

[izzybeans]

174. I find mechanical responses to made up continuums more problematic

Leaving us with the myth that truth is the tension between two extremes. It's an egocentric excuse for that arrogant stance that sounds like "I know you are but what am I."

[rodeodance]

184. There is always a tension as what can or cannot be called 'thruth"

[AX10]

144. Yes,

After the beating HRC has taken from the far left, they now expect people such as myself to come to Obama's defense.
:eyes:

[blm]

91. Here: If Hillary had SUPPORTED other Dems when they were under attack would she be

struggling today?

Instead, we hear stories about the constant backstabbing directed at any Dem who came forward to oppose Bush the last 7 years - especially the last nominee.
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

And THIS is how Bill chose to use his 3 week book tour interviews? Defending Bush?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

And TeamClinton's Capt. Carville was thinking Christian thoughts when he pulled THIS sabotage of Ohio Dem voters?
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


And why did Hillary finally FIND a camera to join Bush and McCain's smear against a veteran accused of insulting the troops? You think Hillary didn't know by then that it was a hyped smear from BushInc?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[beachmom]

99. Exactly, BLM. This "Hillary is the victim" nonsense is completely

devoid of a sense of history of exactly what Hillary did to a fellow Democrat on the eve of a midterm election. It spoke VOLUMES of her character, and we have to be honest that that act only showed she would side with the Right any time it suited HER GOALS.

[Hieronymus]

164. OOOOOOO, you're scary. LOL

[JTFrog]

186. Why? So you can tell him it's irrelevant AFTER the fact. I've seen your game.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4613752#4614485

[jackson_dem]

2. The double standard for Hillary and Obama in the blogosphere is appalling

They are basically the same on substance and ideology but one is demonized while the other is lionized.

[rodeodance]

7. To contrast the issue would be great--but instead it is constant demeaning digs.

[Johnny__Motown]

9. our party can't withstand the damage another Clinton might do

Look at her "scorched earth" behavior. Just the crap that has happened today, which was clearly planned before her closing statement last night

Hillary is bad for our party. The sooner she fades back into the senate the better.

That is not a double standard, that is my opinion of the political experience that she just can't shut up about.

[jackson_dem]

28. This is an example of what I am saying. Obama has been as much if not more scorched earth than her

Ask Edwards...

[femrap]

Look Johnny...If the Dem party doesn't have

Women voters, it is dead. Go google some voting statistics.

You and people like you alienate women voters. I am to the point of leaving the party because HRC has been treated so poorly. I wonder if all of these newbies/youngsters are going to be out there in the heat of this summer and the rain and cold of Oct. and Nov. knocking on doors with the resulting insults, dog bites, and rejections.

It's obvious you have little experience...political or otherwise. You are simple minded, crude, and in need of some civility. Do you hate your mother? Is that the reason HRC activates your cruelty? Or maybe it's the other way around? Your mother dislikes you.

Here I thought I had all the idiots on Ignore.

[SoFlaJet]

10. It's the IWR vote JD

she played the hand wrong-if the war would have been a cakewalk like we were told it would be she would be a genius today-you can't hitch your wagon to scumbags like Bush/Cheney/Rove/Wolfowitz who are OK with playing politics with American blood. That's what it's all about-she voted for it-he wasn't there-he didn't

Now I hope I don't get attacked for writing the truth here

[jackson_dem]

29. Kerry voted for it and he is now a progressive hero

[SoFlaJet]

45. Kerry ain't running this time

the world is a LOT different in 2008 than it was in 2004-democrats and MOST of the rest of the country are DONE with this stupid war

[Exilednight]

85. That depends on the individual. Don't lump all progressives into the same pot

[ProSense]

165. You keep bringing that up! Again: Kerry, unlike Hillary,

spoke out against Bush several times before Bush invaded, including this speech at Georgetown University on Thursday, January 23, 2003:

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration. I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead. Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

<...>

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

Kerry has never wavered in calling out Bush on his immoral war, and he led the effort to set a deadline for withdrawal.

Hillary Clinton's problem has been not only her silence, but also her inability to explain her position with clarity and consistency.

Also, where was Hillary when Bill was "repeatedly" defending "Bush against the left on Iraq"?

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

link

In the middle of the 2004 campaign to make Bush a one-term president (select) for his illegal invasion, Bill Clinton was defending him.


That's Hillary's problem.

[femrap]

87. Biden and Dodd voted for IWR, too....I didn't hear a

peep of hatred toward them. So it's OK for the boys to vote for war but not the girls????

[Darth_Kitten]

55. Precisely.

n/t

[jillan]

3. I agree! She has done so much for children, the poor, the sick, disabled

the vets; fought against privatization of ss.

True - she has not always made the right decision, but she is a great lady and
does not deserve to be torn down by her own party.

[ashling]

6. Agreed, she has done a lot of good

but she has also brought a lot of this on herself.

[truedelphi]

39. But would there even be as many poor if we didn't have NAFTA

And CAFTA?

And would there be as many ill and disabled if her husband's administration hadn't looked the other way with regards to giving carte blanche to the Big Pharma and Big Pesticide Camps.

[rodeodance]

56. and Obama voted to extend it--

[rodeodance]

58. Obama constantly goes after Hillary for Nafta, but he just supported IT'S EXPANSION

Forum Name Hillary Clinton Supporters Group
Topic subject Obama constantly goes after Hillary for Nafta, but he just supported IT'S EXPANSION
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x1730#1730
1730, Obama constantly goes after Hillary for Nafta, but he just supported IT'S EXPANSION
Posted by rodeodance on Fri Feb-22-08 04:44 PM

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama constantly goes after Hillary for Nafta, but he just supported IT'S EXPANSION
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4716787#4716787
4716787, Obama constantly goes after Hillary for Nafta, but he just supported IT'S EXPANSION
Posted by pirhana on Fri Feb-22-08 02:33 PM

The fact that Obama was the first Democratic presidential candidate to announce his support for the Peru NAFTA expansion two months ago makes his recent attacks on Clinton regarding NAFTA bizarre.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/1204-20.htm

[truedelphi]

62. You are citing reasons why I have kept my icon as that of

Dennis.

Now we have two corporate politicos, both of whom will say whatever to get the vote.

The illusion that this is a democracy must continue.

[rodeodance]

74. yes, I believe we do. Yet, I think Hillary's are more workable and inclusive.

[DemBones DemBones]

121. Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's an alarm bell, folks. Wake up! Obama is not who you hope he is.

[BlackVelvet04]

159. They're deaf and blind to anything that doesn't

confirm what they want to believe.

[jillan]

60. Hillary was one of the founders of S-chip. She has done so much

for special education.

She voted against Cafta. Was against Nafta - that was her husband and Gore's deal.
And if you have problems with free trade - you better take a look at Obama's record, because he
voted against a pro-worker, pro-fair trade amendment; and just supported the expansion of Nafta in
December 2007.

[femrap]

92. Many of BO's fans must be

illiterate...or don't know how to google his voting record. I see BO as repugnant lite. But he sure can sermonize...Yes He Can.

And everything that Bill did while prez is somehow HRC's fault....how does that happen? If Bill did something good, he gets the credit. If bad, she gets the blame.

American culture hates women....especially as they age.

[paulk]

152. Hillary Clinton voted against CAFTA

she wasn't in the Senate when NAFTA was passed.

What really pisses me off the most about you Hillary haters is your ignorance, or maybe it's your willingness to tell bald faced lies about her record.

[truedelphi]

196. But she is a proponent of HB 1 Visas, etc.

Like Matt Taibi said on Bill Maher, the voters never fail to amuse: A politician can set things up so that their jobs go south, but during the election cycle they are all: oh she will be different when she is
elected President.

[paulk]

206. and Obama isn't ?

why does HRC come in for special attention here?

[jackson_dem]

168. Poverty fell by 8 million during the Clinton years

It is Bush who has set things back, but even with the damage he has done there are less folks in poverty in 2008 than in 1992. That is a testament to the Clinton record on poverty.

[rucky]

4. Thanks to the blogs, we're seeing a new form of mudslinging

from Keyboard Warriors auditioning for the part of the next Karl Rove. I don't expect either of the campaigns to even try to control this - I don't think it can be controlled - I just wish so many people didn't react to this shit. I also wish the blogs hadn't have gone tabloid so quickly.

[ericgtr]

5. Yep

[jillan]

12. omg - I love that!

Mind if I steal it???

[ashling]

14. I soooo stole that picture

:rofl:

[ericgtr]

22. Me too

someone posted it on my site and I stole it from them ;)

[rodeodance]

30. Ha ha.

[femrap]

93. LOL!!! Thanks! I needed that.

Guess I'll go do the dishes.

[rodeodance]

72. "tabloid" is an avid way to describe them.

[Captain Hilts]

8. The crap on 'progressive' weblogs has been a real eye opener to me. nt

[grasswire]

19. I learned that the left isn't that different from the right...

...in the willingness of its members to believe just about anything without evidence.

[rodeodance]

26. I know, it has been very upsetting to me.

[robbedvoter]

118. It was my terrifying revelation as well - political beliefes have nothing to do

with character. MSM empower one group over another - the worst in the first group comes out. Roaring.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. It Showed Me That Some Liberals Can Be Every Bit As Fucked Up And Mean As Freepers

The only thing that differs is the target of their ire...

[rodeodance]

33. What I found is the willingness to demean Hillary, out of the blue-just make comments left

and right. Broad brushing over and over.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. It's Selective Persecution

All of the votes she is criticized for she had plenty of Democrats voting with her...

I'll eat my monitor if a person can find one vote where she was the lone or even one of a few Dems who voted with Bush*...

[rodeodance]

61. I know--its past beyond the pale!---and it is mirrowed here on DU!!

[creeksneakers2]

106. I noticed the same thing

Haters are alike.

[DemBones DemBones]

122. If not more so. I can hardly recognize most

"left" sites these days. Obama is going to break a lot of hearts if he wins.

[paulk]

154. me ,too

and it started about 6 years ago when I started posting here.

When I joined DU, I thought of myself as a progressive - I don't anymore, at least in the context of the left blogosphere.

[Raven]

11. I admire her but she is part of the machine that allowed Bush to ruin

this country. She is definately NOT a progressive. Her position on the war and on Iran is atrocious...Obama is not much better, by the way, but she is definately not a progressive.

[rodeodance]

17. so they should attack her and not Obama--that is the issue her.

[Faygo Kid]

13. Progressive blogs have "led the charge?" Ever listen to Limbaugh? Visit Free Republic?

I'm sorry you're bitter, but while there have been mean-spirited posts in the heat of this campaign directed against Hillary, they are NOTHING compared to what the right wing and GOP have directed at her for nearly two decades.

To deny that and say progressive blogs have "led the charge in demonizing this fine person" is just flat out wrong. And kind of nuts, I'm sorry to say. Whew.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

34. Try some decaf Gunga Din. DU doesn't belong to you.

You should check your control issues at the door.

[rodeodance]

36. I agree--but try to stick to the issue.

[Faygo Kid]

44. I quoted her precisely. What don't you understand about "led the charge?"

Look, I see your posts here everywhere on behalf of your candidate. Fine. But let's get real here: The right wing has "led the charge," not the progressive blogs.

I'm sure this is a tough time for you, but I sure as hell am not going to "get lost" at your command. If the OP wants to vent about criticism of Hillary on progressive blogs, I have no problem with that. But we have not "led the charge." That's ridiculous.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Listen To Rush Limbaugh...

She is held in greater contempt by many DUers than she is held by Rush Limbaugh..

[rodeodance]

83. you know--I do believe that. And this morning's episode highlighted that!

[femrap]

94. BO has been treated with kid gloves....just

wait. He's gonna look like Bambi in headlights when the repugnants take aim.

[creeksneakers2]

113. Now the wingnuts are saying they like Hillary better than Barack

Wingnuts will hate who they are told to hate. As soon as the target shifts Obama's negatives will go up.

I hope the folks who decided the best way to deal with a wingnut damaged candidate is to dump her and substitute another candidate will be more loyal to Obama. At some point we have to just stick and fight the wingnuts and the sooner the better.

[femrap]

135. Wingnuts are good sheep....I have

one in my family. She obeys. I wish they would all go to an area of the country and secede. Let them have their own theocracy and leave the adults alone.

[calico1]

15. It's a shame that there are a lot less

true progressives than I thought there were and that the difference between Democrats and Republicans doesn't seem to be too much..

[hfojvt]

16. aaaaaauuuuugggh

"Her final comment was gracious and heartfelt". Her final comment was simply BS.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[totodeinhere]

40. You seem to have a thing for telling people to get lost.

You did it to three different people in this thread. Perhaps a bit more civility is called for.

[rodeodance]

52. stick to the issue and be productive--that is all I ask

[KAZ]

73. No, "stick to the issue and agree with me" is all you ask. This

is not your personal board.

[rodeodance]

75. I am not asking you or anyone to agree. If you think that you are wrong.

[apocalypsehow]

79. Yep, that pretty much sums up the OP's attitude. I've noticed that to be the case with a significant

minority of HRC supporters.

[hfojvt]

76. admittedly my post was kinda without substance

but having already made four substantial posts in previous threads without much attention I decided to put the substance of it in an OP. Probably the same people will show up to "poop on my thread"

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[carlotta]

20. It's called groupthink

And I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out why they all subscribe to it. I know they all have a "clubby" relationship with one another, so maybe it's the frat boy mentality. Who knows?

[sendero]

23. I'm for blogs...

.. of every stripe. They take power away from the MSM and put it where it belongs, in the hands of ordinary people.

If you don't like the rabble speaking out, you are always free to add your voice.

[UALRBSofL]

46. sendero I have to disagree with that

These bloggers are much more influenced by MSM then you give them credit for. I would venture to say 9 out of 10 bloggers do so based on what they see and hear on MSM. Just My Opinion.

[sendero]

54. I think it is the other way around...

.. the MSM was coronating HRC 6-12 months ago. They barely mentioned Obama much less Edwards.

Sure blogs are of varying quality, but I think that they are merely reflecting the Clinton-fatigue that many of us feel.

I also think that bloggers by are large are very much anti-war, and HRC took the wrong side of that issue and has refused to set it right when she had ample chances.

Too bad.

[Catchawave]

43. Love the BTD.

I think he was banned from Daily Kos for not marching in lockstep with Kos.

Progressive blogs have been really disappointing to me, especially after seeing how they embraced Edwards at Yearly Kos last year as the only TRUE progressive.

I just hope they don't have buyer's remorse this November :cry:

[Captain Hilts]

67. How about moveon.org endorsing Obama after Clinton voting against the bill to criticize their ad?

[Catchawave]

88. MoveOn really disappointed me.

Their claim of 70% of their members supported Obama was such B.S. It was 70% of those who responded to their poll. Way WAY below 3.2 million members btw.

I joined moveon a few years ago to attack icky republicans, not pick Dem favorites. I unscribed and will no longer send them donations for their ads.

[Captain Hilts]

142. A friend of mine is a regional coordinator and she feels the same way. She feels...

as you do.

And she is STUNNED by the tide of people she's NEVER heard of wanting to host Obama parties. It's actually kind of creeped her out, and she likes Obama.

[AX10]

200. I know of a college professor who is fairly liberal...

and told me that he is not part of the MoveOn.org crowd. He referred to them as extremists.
He was right.

[Thepricebreaker]

48. Everything is sexist when Hillary isnt winning...

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Did The OP Attribute The Hate To Sexism?

Perhaps Santa will leave "Reading Is Fundamental" under your Christmas tree... The OP was lamenting the fact she was being pilloried, not that she was losing...

[rodeodance]

59. SToP broad brushing ---it is very unproductive.

[femrap]

100. Maybe someday you'll take the time

to read up on sexism...or the history of women fighting to get the vote.

Did you know that not too long ago, women were fired from their jobs if they were pregnant?

I bet you couldn't care less, right? Are you sure you aren't a republican?

You know, I wonder if all of these stupid newbies aren't in fact republican moles trying to get women to question their affiliation with the Dem Party. Because I certainly have. If these people are truly Dems, I don't want a fucking thing to do with these stupid idiots. Seriously...they're hateful little snotty brats...I've know smarter 10 year olds.

breaker...you do know that w/o women voters, the dem party is dead. Check that out and then take your rolling eyes and look up your ass....I mean brain.

Basically you're cutting off your dick to spite your balls.

[anamandujano]

105. Bravo!

[rodeodance]

116. most do not recognize sexist language--the Schuster case in a recent example

[femrap]

137. Do we have to bring back

Consciousness Raising Groups?

I was just thinking...maybe BO fans think HRC is being treated fairly. Maybe they think that since she is an older women, fair treatment is ridiculing her...it's expected. 'Hey Dude...she's old...look at those ankles. And that laugh. Shrill, Dude, shrill.' The MSM, owned by those 5 rich, ugly white boys, has convinced many that women are just entertainment. And fairness has nothing to do with it.

Don't listen to me...I'm in a funk. I don't want to be a Dem anymore. I pity the first phone caller and/or canvasser that talks to me....I'm in Ohio. I can't wait until March 4 is over. I have hated this primary season. It's Frederick Douglas and Susan B. all over again.

[BlackVelvet04]

160. Hear hear......

but I don't blame it on just the assholes on this board. I lay a lot of blame at the feet of John Kerry and Ted Kennedy.....when the Democratic finally has a viable woman candidate what do they do? They push forward an untested, unvetted, rookie senator and pit the two groups against each other and we're supposed to, as women, fall in line once again and vote for and work to support a man. Well, fuck that. I'm not supporting yet another empty suit who comes to us with what? THE EXACT PROMISES OF GEORGE W. BUSH.

[femrap]

194. Yep...you said it sister!

You should write an OP about that. I really don't know if I can vote for BO...I'll have to hold my nose so tightly. Hell, a lot can happen between now the November.

I do know one thing....I won't lift a finger to help BO. Let all those newbies knock on doors and get bitten by dogs. I won't do it.

If BO lets his grandmother live in Africa w/o running water, how the hell do you think he's gonna treat the poor women in this country? I do not trust him one iota!

[BlackVelvet04]

195. I'm tired of holding my nose....

I refuse to do it, I'll write Hillary in. The advantages of getting older are you don't much feel like playing the damn game anymore.

[femrap]

211. I was thinking of voting for

Cynthia McKinney! I can't remember what party she is running with....Green, maybe? She scares the hell out of those politicians. I admired her...I wonder if she and Maxine Waters got along. I love Maxine...she was supporting HRC. As Shirley Chisholm said: "Men are men."

I hear ya....If I am going to play the game, then I am going to make the rules!!! I would really like to have a 3rd party.

Another good idea I've seen floating around is another Constitutional Convention! Time to update it for the 21st Century...but it would HAVE TO BE by We, The People.

[rug]

51. And despite that, they're almost tied.

[rodeodance]

63. :-)

[pleah]

64. I will give you a K&R for this!

People have been really mean spirited about this whole campaign.
spelling error

[ProSense]

65. What utter self-serving crap! Where was BTD when Taylor Marsh was swiftboating Kerry and Kennedy

Taylor Marsh's despicable dishonesty in smearing Obama

Lying Clinton hack, Taylor Marsh, exposed by Las Vegas Sun

Taylor Marsh's own words contradict her current swiftboating lies

Taylor Marsh smears Obama, praises McCain's character

What does BTD think about this latest smear from Hillary's campaign?

[rodeodance]

68. There are exceptions. but few of them.

[rodeodance]

71. BTW--can there be a productive discussion--Calling the OP crap is out of line.

[ProSense]

78. It's crap because it's feigned outrage! BTD has no

problem linking to Taylor Marsh. The Swiftboating of Kerry was despicable! Why the selective outrage?

Oh, vote Hillary! Get it?

[rodeodance]

81. once again--you come onto this thread and demean the OP.

[ProSense]

97. You are being a lot hypocritical aren't you?

Admit it!

[Andromeda]

183. Your posts are so offensive,

I wonder why most of them aren't deleted.

I know we have the right to free speech and all that but if your posts were interesting and informative there would be some justification for your presence but all you do is spew hate and dissension like so many of your fellow Baramabots.

[DaveofCali]

66. Most negative things about her has been created by others, not her

Its just like the Dean scream that the media spun and used to brand Dean as crazy or something. Most of the negative on Hillary has been simply a highly negative, sexist image of her (which most likely was made by the Right Wing at first) being pounded into people's minds by her opponents in the media, left wing, and right wing, and using any little piece of evidence to reinforce that image and validate why people should have this negative attitude on her. She's not some "evil bitch" that many put her to be. I think its the result of a lot of people using as much evidence as possible to validate this "powerful bitch" type of sexism on her that was first created by the right wing, and its ashame that many democrats and liberals have adopted such sexism and now see her only in a negative light. It makes it look like and validate the notion that a woman cannot get into a position of power in a patriarchal society without enduring unfair sexism and scrutiny from the male establishment. Obama didn't suffer much racism in this primary battle, yet Clinton suffered through lots of sexism. And it is unfortunate that her enemies get so much influence over voters, that it has turned into a feedback loop, with people considering Obama over her because of questions about her electability because "she's too divisive", i.e. she has lots of enemies. So in actuality, has the right wing picked the Democratic Nominee for the Democratic Party?

I don't have anything against Obama and I like his ideas better than Hillary, but did we really have to settle this nominee battle using the sexism that the Right Wing has been so known for?

[Captain Hilts]

69. Let's all say it together: SHE DIDN'T VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE BANKRUPTCY BILL...

and she did speak out against it.

Bubba was in the hospital and she was told her vote would not be necessary.

[rodeodance]

80. it is a shame that even her on DU so many are willing to outright lie about issues.

[cbayer]

70. And once again, a good OP turns into a Hillary bake.

I'm getting full.

I have never used the ignore button before and even felt some responsibility to stand up to these thugs and bullies with their lack of real information or ability to critically analyze anything.

But this is ridiculous. As someone said in another thread, these are Hillary haters, not Obama supporters. And they do nothing to help their candidate.

I am done.

[rodeodance]

77. I know--I am weary of it. They just come and infect a thread. over and over.

[cbayer]

82. And you have really done a great job of trying to stop it.

I see you do it all the time and really appreciate your effort.

But it is just not working. They are full of venom and mis-information and I am just going to turn them off for awhile. I think they feed off people like you and me.

[rodeodance]

86. umm. sometimes --I do not have anyone on ignore. i will think about what you said.

[anamandujano]

108. The ones I put on ignore add zip to the discussion, nothing even

worth responding to. They are simply annoying. You won't miss anything.

Go ahead, take the plunge.

[rodeodance]

114. you are prob. right. ok--will step into the Ignore thingy. --slowly:-)

[cbayer]

115. I have spent the last hour or so doing it and I already feel better.

Thanks for the support!

[rodeodance]

84. Regarding your op---It is apparent that many wanted--I read some saying she

should go negative---they wanted to cut her down. but what they were the Xerox story--over and over today-thread after thread.

The reasons she didn't go for the jugular is that she knows it doesn't work for her and, contrary to popular myth, she won't do or say anything to win. I know that's shocking to those of you who are convinced that Clinton is a monster, but it's true. Her campaign has not been, by any historical standards, a negative or nasty one. She has stated repeatedly, and again last night, that the party would be unified and in light of the fact that she is losing, that remark takes on a different character -- she will not turn the Democratic party inside out just for the fun of it or greatly damage the front runner in some quixotic quest for power. (It's hard to believe that anyone but Ann Coulter would ever believe she would do such a thing, but there you have it.)

[cascadiance]

89. No. Hillary lead the charge on demonizing Hillary when she's with the likes of Rupert Murdoch!

[creeksneakers2]

117. I think Rupert endorsed Obama.

[cascadiance]

129. I think you're confusing Rupert with the New York Post...

Yes, it's true that he owns that paper, but that's not he himself endorsing him. I'm sure that that right wing tabloid style of paper didn't want to lose their anti-Hillary readers.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/1/30/221733/001

[AtomicKitten]

90. Is it giving you the vapors?

[From The Left]

95. Hillary's Made Her Own Bed

Like voting for the Iraq war and the USA Patriot Act.

[femrap]

101. I certainly hope you hate Biden and Dodd

as much as HRC for the same votes on IWR.

And since BO has been in the Senate, he has voted the same as HRC on funding the war.

[carlotta]

107. You must have really hated Edwards!!

He not only voted for the war, he actually wrote parts of the Patriot Act.

[jackson_dem]

171. The Patriot Act passed 98-1

Maybe there was a reason great Democrats voted for it?

[beachmom]

96. Excuse me, but it is Hillary's ACTIONS which have demonized HERSELF!!

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1

Ever since December she has run a gutter campaign against Obama, since she figured she couldn't win it straight up. This whining about "Hillary being treated unfairly" is really annoying. She is RESPONSIBLE for her campaign. They behave badly and attack a fellow Democrat with despicable attacks, then expect to get hit by liberal blogs. It. is. that. simple.

[femrap]

102. Just. Wait. For. Rove.

If you think this has been a gutter campaign, you have lived a very, very sheltered life. BO will look like Bambi in headlights.

You better get ready if he is the nominee. He won't know what hit him. I. Am. Serious.

And if don't think the American culture doesn't like older women or that sexism doens't exist, you must be very, very wealthy and can buy lots of insulation from it.

[beachmom]

111. So it's okay for Hillary to emulate Karl Rove? Last I looked we are

still in the Democratic primary, NOT the General Election. Obama is doing fine, thank you very much, against the Clinton Slime Machine. But I THOUGHT Democrats were better than this, but not so with the Clintons. And if all you guys have is "sexism exists" then you're arguing that Hillary shouldn't even bother to run because she's a woman. Pretty stupid argument, especially since I mentioned nothing of her gender in my post. By the way, "racism exists", but I won't be making excuses like that for Barack Obama if he doesn't make it. Obama has been nothing less than fantastic running his campaign, having a great message, inspiring millions, holding his own against the Clinton machine, and debating Hillary toe to toe. I won't descend into whining that because Obama is "different", it's not fair if he loses a few votes based soley on who he is. Life is not fair, and I'm sure some might not vote for McCain on account of his age. So get off the identity politics, please.

Hillary is losing this primary season thus far because of the ineptness of her campaign, NOT because she is a woman. And not because she is being treated unfairly.

[femrap]

136. One big criticism of her

was her vote on IWR. Why weren't Biden and Dodd attacked as well?

She has been attacked because of her cleavage, her ankles, her laugh, and the prostitution of her daughter. So you consider this FAIR TREATMENT? You probably think that because she is an older woman, she, of course, should be made fun of..especially her body...right? But I hear not a word about BO's big ears. Why? Men's physical features are never ridiculed. Have you ever thought about that or are you just too busy sitting in the sun?

HRC thought the primary race would be over on Super Tuesday...they had no plans thereafter and have been scrambling. Her campaign is not perfect...I don't know why she keeps Penn on staff.

She has carried herself with class. Did you watch the debate last night where she stated that it was an honor to stand with BO?

You are going to be very surprised one of these days when you find you idol isn't what he seems. Have you looked at the people who are advising him? All BO has put together is one of the Marketing Plans I have seen. It is calculated. It uses demographics. It has looked at trends. And the speech writers are excellent.

Don't you wonder why the MSM has been pushing BO? Doesn't that make you wonder? Have you been out in the sun too long?

I wanted HRC to run...I thought our nation was ready for a woman as prez. I have been shocked to see the amount of hatred and cruelty spewed at HRC. Truly shocked and saddened. I now know I will never see a woman prez in my life. And how my fellow dems have insulted her and women in general has stung. I have been a life long Democrat. No longer. I won't give them a cent. I will never make another call. And I certainly won't do anymore door-to-door canvassing and risk dog bites, rejection, and extreme insults and threats. I sure hope you're gonna pick up the slack...bet you'll just canvass the wealthier neighborhoods. Nah...it's more fun to go to the beach.

And you didn't answer my ?...how's that insulation working for ya? How's the beach? Sunny today?

[sfam]

146. Just an opposing thought on this...Biden and Dodd were dismissed out of hand...

I really think their IWR vote had a lot to do with that. Nobody really took them seriously as candidates because of it. While they didn't get demonized, their treatment was almost worse - they got ignored.

Only Hillary and Edwards were able to "survive" their vote - Edwards because he recanted it (although this still didn't help in the end), and Hillary, because she had so much else going for her.

So yeah, she got demonized, but mostly because she was the only viable candidate who had actually voted for the war. The rest were dismissed out of hand. Had Biden or Dodd been able to make a serious run at the presidency, I think you'd see them get clobbered over their vote just as much.

Again, I'm not trying to address everything, just your point on why those two weren't attacked.

[demo dutch]

127. They're going to be in for a hell of a surprise!

[BlackVelvet04]

162. That's just so damn stupid as to be unbelievable....

a gutter campaign? Ridiculous.

[beachmom]

199. Is Obama a drug dealer? Is Obama in bed with domestic terrorists?

Barack HUSSEIN Obama. All of this said by surrogates and from the campaign. That is a gutter campaign, your faux outrage notwithstanding.

[Perry Logan]

104. Great post. Of course, we both know there's no getting through to Clintophobes.

[cooolandrew]

110. I couldn't agree more, as showwn in this clip here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=96356&mesg_id=96356



















maybe

[OzarkDem]

119. She's a fantastic candidate and will make a first rate president

as for Obama, lots to worry about there.

[DemBones DemBones]

130. Amen to all that.

Some are looking at a painful surprise down the road.

Since Kucinich is out, it's not worth worrying about as far as I'm concerned. I'll vote for Hillary if she's the nominee, though.

[babylonsister]

120. Who's demonizing who?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4718620

[bagrman]

133. Dems. riding The Clinton's is just Practice for what the Repukes will do.

there is to much Baggage.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

134. Awwww. Poor widdle Hillary.

:nopity:

[femrap]

145. widdle teenie weenie....

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." Tom Paine

Must be another hypocritical repugnant infiltrating!

You wouldn't know good if it bit your widdle weenie.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

166. Are you volunteering?

Perhaps I don't know good, but I do know a self-serving, consciousless, power-hungry, pandering (aka-"triangulating"), neo-lib, corrupt, politician like Hillary when I see one.

[femrap]

170. I bet you couldn't list

that many adjectives of hate about W, could you? Isn't it amazing what the MSM has done with this 'horse race.' They have got Dems hating each other...there you are calling HRC corrupt.

I bet you hate her much more than you do Bush and Cheney.

I no longer want to be a part of the Dem party if it contains such shallow, hateful, easily manipulated individuals as yourself.

Tom Paine is turning in his grave.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

175. I doubt Tom would be cheering Hillary.

A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.
Thomas Paine

Hillary is a member of the DLC.

From such beginnings of governments, what could be expected, but a continual system of war and extortion?
Thomas Paine

Hillary voted for the IWR. Voted for Kyl/Lieberman. Voted to continue funding the war.

Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Thomas Paine

Hillary voted for the Patriot Act


I don't "hate" Hillary. I just see her for what she is and hold her in the usual contempt I have for most politicians.

[femrap]

177. Biden and Dodd and Kerry all voted

for IWR. Where's the hate, I mean contempt? BO has voted exactly as HRC on funding the war. Where's the contempt?

I was referring to Paine turning in his grave because YOU have a quote of his about loving your brethren while trashing HRC....see the hypocrisy?

I didn't understand the Kyl/Lieberman either. But I just have a strong gut distrust of BO...his Marketing Plan is so calculated, so slick....and everyone seems so easily manipulated as if under a spell. I just don't see the charisma. I just know that at least HRC wouldn't hurt women and children.

I think I want a 3rd party...or maybe a division of the US into 3 or 4 countries.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

178. It seems we have few disagreements after all.

I hold all those that voted to send troops to kill and die for nothing in contempt. And, for those that continue to fund the slaughter. Including Obama.

As for your desire for something different:

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

“Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently."
Rosa Luxemburg

"Freedom is the absolute right of all adult men and women to seek permission for their actions only from their own conscience and reason, and to be determined in their actions only by their own will, and consequently to be responsible only to themselves, and then to the society to which the belong, but only insofar as they have made a free decision to belong to it." Mikhail Bakunin

[AX10]

143. Joe Klein was right on one thing.

The left wing activists, Kos/Moveon/Air America are just as bad as their right wing counterparts.

[Auntie Bush]

148. Truer words were never spoken! nt

[rodeodance]

151. :-)

[cottonseed]

155. I for one, welcome that.

We'll need them on the way to crushing McCain in the general. Bloggers are taking a stand against the old garbage of the consultant class in Washington. I understand that as Hillary supporter, the vitriol that can come from them is a terrible thing, but I want this type of style on the left. It's just one part of Dems starting to stand back up and fight back against the Republican smear machine.

[AX10]

156. Don't come to me for support after you attacked us.

I am no supporter of MoveOn/Huffpost/Kos/TPM/Air America/etc

[cottonseed]

157. Allright, but you're going to miss out on all the fun.

[BlackVelvet04]

163. Un-friggin'-believable

that's really going to contribute to that atmosphere of unity and working together, isn't it?

I can't believe the stupid shit I read here.

[cottonseed]

179. You're spinning your wheels.

The unity terminology is an Obama campaign thing. I'm talking about going after the republican stranglehold on the political media. We're talking about bloggers here. I'm talking about winning that race. If you spent more time working for Hillary instead of doling out your opinions on what is and is not stupid, she might have stood a chance.

[AX10]

198. But you are defending their smear tactics against...

HRC. That is disgusting.
HRC and McCain are much better qualified to be Presdident that Obama.
The extremist activists on each side are smearing them both.
That should tell we reasonable people something.

[cottonseed]

201. They are blogs. They prefer Obama to Hillary.

They are not network news or major newspapers, there is no mandate on fairness. They should try and police themselves better, sure, as progressive blogs their anti-Hillary slant is unfortunate. I'm sorry, that's just the way it works.

[AX10]

202. But don't expect me to support them.

They are just as extreme as Rush Limbaugh.
I'd be happy to see all of them disappear, including Air America radio.

[cottonseed]

203. What would you be left with?

You'd prefer to be left with cable news and corporate major newspapers as the only remaining media? If that's the case, Hillary would be savaged just the same. PBS just isn't enough to balance all that out, if that's what you're expecting.

[AX10]

204. Why the hell should I support anyone who...

is bashing my candidate as well as myself?
There is no reason to do so.

[cottonseed]

205. Progressive blogs are bashing you?

I don't get it. Second of all, I'm not asking you to support these blogs. You can sit outside their offices and picket them as far as I'm concerned. If we go all the way back, I was making the point that the aggressiveness of these blogs is something that I've supported. I believe they're great tools to go to battle with. I also agreed that they've gone after Hillary. I did not agree that they owed both candidates equal and fair coverage. I didn't ask you to support them.

[Auntie Bush]

147. I feel that way too.

"The unfairness, spite, falsehoods, nastiness and sexism demonstrated will be hard to forget. I imagine I am not the only person who feels that way."

That's why I've spent months here on DU....just defending Hillary from attacks on DU by some otherwise very respected posters. Very disappointing!

[mtnsnake]

149. Yup, you are not the only person who feels that way

Thank you for posting this.

[AX10]

161. I know of many on the right whom are disgusted with the right wing...

activists. I now know how they feel.
I would not be sorry to see the left wing activists and the right wing ones disappear.
They are corrupting the process.

[ErnestoG]

172. Hillary is progressive like Bush can put a sentence together.

But I suspect you knew that, so therefore I'll write your comment off as ignorant babble.

[Political Heretic]

173. Hillary's campaign demonized her without need of any help.

Hillary Clinton, the individual, is a credit to the party.

But Hillary's 2008 Campaign is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Her strategists and advisors managed to destroy her chances at a nomination that she should have won, even with Obama's popularity. I dare say it should be remembered as truly one of the worst campaigns in recent history.

[Seabiscuit]

176. GD Primaries on DU is certainly no "progressive blog"

It's been overrun by freepers and nasty juvenile Obamanoids.

[pnwmom]

181. I share those sentiments. Thank you! n/t

[dailykoff]

185. "she didn't go for the jugular"? How about "that's change you can xerox?"

" she won't do or say anything to win. . . . Her campaign has not been, by any historical standards, a negative or nasty one."

Are you kidding? She was booed in a nationally televised debate for doing just that. Whoever wrote those words is either deluded or lying and it's sad to see so many others chiming in.

[maddiejoan]

192. OMG!

You think THAT was going for the jugular?

:rofl:

Wow. I certainly HOPE Obama is more prepared for what the GOP will do to him than you seem to be.

[GDavis]

191. I agree completely. It's all BO group think now

[LWolf]

197. It's a shame that any liberal blog with any integrity at all

wouldn't go after both of them, since they are both centrist Dems.