hillary made it a point to say (much as dentifrice smile campbell brown tried to shut her down) that

[flordehinojos]

universal health care begins with a mandate for all, much as did social security (an investment in our lives on which many of us depend in our golden years for survival) and much as did medicare ...
hillary's mandate for health insurance as a first step towards universal health care works for me.

**********************************

hillary also said that she would agree to meet with raul castro, hugo chavez, ahmadinejad and others only after their governments showed some signs of a movement towards the democratization of their own governments. that works for me. she is in essentially saying ... don't just give me some rhetoric ... show me the beef. that works for me.

************************

to show up at a hospital emergency room, with a sick child, or a sick self, without insurance and to want to buy insurance at that point ... seems to me to completely miss the mark because when you are sick in a hospital emergency room, or a hospital bed, when hospital bills are piling up, and the cost of tests which can run anywhere from a few hundred of dollars to quite a few thousands of dollars are mounting and mounting ... insurances are not going to want to sell you their coverage, nor is it the time to go shopping for insurance. also to wait for the time to get sick to go shopping for insurance ... that is not the time to go shopping for insurance. it seems to me that obama's plan works for the insurance companies--not for the people.

************************

to respond to hillary's xerox moment, with this is not the time to talk about this ... rather, the nation needs to be uplifted at this time, as obama did on thursday night gave me the impression that obama was whining, that he was hiding behind the skirts of lady liberty, or the constitution, or the ethereal skirts of the nation without really much beef with which to defend hillary's charge against him that he sells a lot of change you can xerox.

*****************

for all of the above and for other reasons not posted here ... i continue to believe in hillary. i continue to believe that hillary is the one who will rescue this nation from the destruction that george w. bush has wrought upon it, and i believe that she is the only one who really cares about my health and that of my family ... so, i will continue to lift my voice on her behalf and will vote for her in the general election should she make it to the ticket. if she does not. i will give my vote to green party candidate cynthia mckinney. if cynthia mckinney is not on the ballot, i will refrain from exercising my vote these elections.

[MADem]

1. I know--that point got STEPPED on.

So many people who praise these countries who have universal health care ignore the fact that that's how THEY pay for it, too.

The "It's MY MONEY" clowns don't understand that they end up paying more when we have to take up the slack for people who don't have insurance, anyway--it's why an aspirin in the hospital costs ten bucks or more.

[anigbrowl]

3. Not really

In most countries with socialized healthcare, you are most certainly not buying insurance - the cost comes out of income tax. This in one sense a mandate, but quite different insofar as the cost is fully equalized and is not going to create profit for a private insurer.

I would be happy to explain the ins and outs of this in greater detail if you like. I come from Europe and my old man recently retried from 30 years as a senior public health executive. I've also spent time working in the lower reaches (both clinical and administrative) of a socialized healthcare system.

I'm a very strong believer in socialized healthcare, but I'm not terribly sold on Hillary's plan. there are substantive reasons why I prefer Obama's, if you want to hear them.

[MADem]

7. She was trying to make the point that healthcare and social security

had convergence in the sense that no one wanted to give up "their money" when social security first appeared on the scene.

Did you listen to her response on that score? She was saying the same thing--that people didn't like SS at first, because they didn't want to have money taken from them, and that people didn't like the idea of national healthcare for the same reasons. But of course, the minute she got going, she got shut down.

You're not going to convince me that Obama has the better plan, but thanks for the offer anyway.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

15. I'd agree with the poster above yours

We don't pay directly for insurance here (only for Private Health care), and it does come out of our income taxes. When I applied for an NI (National Insurance) number, I had to go through a series of questions (proof that I'm a UK citizen, proof that I'm applying for jobs, etc) before I qualified for assignment of an NI number. It's like us having a SS number. When I apply for jobs I have to put my NI number on the form. SS comes out of our taxes, Hillary's health plan doesn't do that.

What Hillary seems to be saying is that she wants to require everyone to get health insurance. You have to think about the people who cannot afford health insurance. Is Hillary going to set up a "government health insurance company" in order to deal with this?

There are people here who did agree with Hillary's plan until I explained to them that it requires everyone to buy their own health insurance. "What's the problem with that?" They asked me. I said, "You'd have to think about the people who cannot afford it."

The problem with Hillary's plan is that she's afraid to use the "tax" word.

[flordehinojos]

21. what she is also saying is that mandated insurance coverage will be affordable and that the obama

plan with no mandates for universal coverage would increase our taxes by $900. per person to pay for the expense of the uninsured arriving to the hospitals etc. she is also saying that his plan benefits the insurance companies. i think hillary is saying insurances under her plan would not be able to get away with a lot of the inhumane actions they are committing, they would be mandated as well to make their plans affordable to people ... this works for me... and for my son who recently lost his job and is now working a part-time 30 hr. a week job which offers no health insurance... and health insurance, as it is presently, through his wife's work, for her, for him and for their child would cost them an average of $800. a month. who has $800. a month to pay out on health insurance? not them. and not me. mandated, affordable health insurance works for me... and i would much rather see them paying for insurance to cover each of them, than i would to see them pay for insurance to cover only their child. what would happen to that child if either of them got sick, had to go into a hospital, and if accepted into admission by the hospital (many of which have been refusing services if people do not have insurances) what would happen to them and their family when, coming out of the hospital, they had large amounts of bills and money to pay to such hospitals and doctors.

hillary's plan continues to work for me.

[MADem]

38. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[flordehinojos]

40. O:-)

:toast:

p.s. (sometimes i so wish they had a flower as one of the smileys ... i would post one here if they did ...in addition to recognition "toast" i've posted here.) ... thanks for seeing clearly. :)

[rodeodance]

16. Its only recently that he added the word Universal to his stump --!! more appealing --but same ol,

[anamandujano]

9. I'll listen.

[PADemD]

18. I'd like to hear them, as would many others.

[enid602]

19. single-payer

"This in one sense a mandate, but quite different insofar as the cost is fully equalized and is not going to create profit for a private insurer." France's health care is administered through private insurance companies, and their health care system is universally admired. Doesn't have to be single-payer, although that would certainly be an alternative if accomodation can't be made with the private insurers.

[anamandujano]

2. Well stated and add--he is trying to ride her coat tails of experience

by claiming that they are almost identical on the issues, and that he adds the extra ingredient of inspiration.

SO NOT TRUE.

[flordehinojos]

22. absolutely so not true .the media is just giving us another GWB in barack obama.

and that is a tragedy and then there are those who might be afraid that hillary can still pull it out of a hat and are wanting her to quit the race for the presidency right now. i think their calls for her to quit the race for the presidency talks more to their fears that she can pull ahead and get on the ballot in the general elections, than it does to their claims that her candidacy is already dead.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. He inspires me-- too-- tune him out!

[emilyg]

4. k/r

[flordehinojos]

28. O:-)

:hi:

[LadyVT]

5. great post... I especially agree with the part about negotiations with other countries because

we NEED to show superiority to dictatorships and countries where human rights are being trampled upon. It is up to THEM to demonstrate to us a willingness to stop the abuse. THEN we negotiate.

This is policy when it comes to re-uniting abusive families. You don't make it easy for abusive parents who have tortured their children by going to their houses and giving them back their kids without first ensuring the kids won't be harmed again. And you certainly don't worry about whether or not THEY believe you see yourself as "superior."

[TwilightGardener]

6. If we waited for other countries to "start democratizing", we're in for a long fucking

wait. Nixon didn't go to China, then--we're still waiting? North Korea--just gonna let them nuke South Korea, or us, with no intervention--or we'll just bomb them--because they're not a democracy, right? Reagan didn't meet with Gorbachev BEFORE the collapse of communism? Is Saudi Arabia a human-rights-respecting democracy? See how ridiculous this argument gets? Obama isn't saying he's going to meet to "negotiate" anything with rogue states and leaders--it's just to engage these nations in a very intitial way, maybe establish some common basic interests. Better than to continue to ignore and isolate them completely until they hopefully someday comply with our demands--and their reward, according to both GWB and Hillary, would be finally a "hard-earned" meeting with the high and mighty US--yippee!

[anamandujano]

12. He changed his position to "meet without requirements" to "meet after

preparation of the ground" which is Hillary's position.

[flordehinojos]

23. the man is such a copycat it is absolutely pathetic ...

[rodeodance]

30. yes, I recall using the term without 'preconditions" a while back also.

[TwilightGardener]

32. That's not her position--her position is preconditions, not preparation.

Preconditions are, you stop doing this first or you change that policy first, and then we'll see if you get to meet with the great and mighty America. That's what the OP says--"democratization". That's a precondition. Obama is talking about having lower-level diplomats/state dept. folks engage in initial meetings first, to lay the groundwork for a Presidential-level meeting.

[Cameron27]

34. It was ridiculous,

during the debate, Obama said that he would meet with those leaders without preconditions, and then in the next run-on sentence he started to list his preconditions.

[sandnsea]

8. SS & Medicare are entitlements, not mandates

The benefit is guaranteed. Not so with Hillary's health care plan. Two completely different things, as Obama rightfully pointed out.

[rodeodance]

11. silly -the mandate for ss and medicare is that YOU pay in. get it??

[pnwmom]

13. Wrong. S.S. and Medicare are mandates AND entitlements.

People can't opt out of Medicare and Social Security, and their wages are garnished to pay for them -- except that we call it "payroll deduction."

And the same would be true about HRC's health care plan, and would have been true about Edwards'.

[sandnsea]

39. Not remotely

Hillary's plan will garnish a penalty for not having insurance. It won't implement a program to guarantee health care, issue a card, all health expenses paid. Not the same thing at all. She would never offer a health care entitlement, big government controlled health care. That's even worse, politically, than a mandate.

[pnwmom]

48. She's offering government run plans, like Medicare, as an option for those

who don't want private insurance. So if you want a government card in your wallet, you can have one.

I suspect that I will.

[rodeodance]

10. REC

[flordehinojos]

24. hey rodeodance ... many thanks for the rec.

:-)

[rodeodance]

29. :-)

[Control-Z]

14. k&r

be back in the morning to comment. Good night all.

[flordehinojos]

26. ...

hope you had a good night's rest. look forward to your comments.

[Andromeda]

17. Rec

.

[flordehinojos]

27. hi !

and many thanks.:hi:

[DemGa]

20. It's so obvious Hillary is the better qualified by far

It's such a shame, such an insult to us all this Obama-fad.

[Imagevision]

31. So, the 20 million++ that have been supporting Obama are... dillusional?

[bigtree]

37. Over 23 million total votes cast in the primary so far

Obama: 11,144,254

Clinton: 10,829,006

difference: 315,248

[flordehinojos]

41. no. not delusional. they are just, "not listening" to the reality beneath the nebulosity of

inspirtion.

He puts out a lot "nebulous inspiration" which is often not grounded on the reality of this here earthly living... or of fact checking.

[bigtree]

33. k&r

:kick:

[flordehinojos]

42. O:-)

:D

[Cameron27]

35. K&R

Great OP, thanks for post it!

[flordehinojos]

43. thank you!

;-)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Mandatory health insurance isn't single payer!

If you want to take money out of my paycheck to cover everyone through a truly universal, single payer system, that is fine. But to force me to pay premiums to some PRIVATE insurance company that can turn around and deny me care is bullshit. The comparison to SS is bogus. SS is not a private insurance company.

[flordehinojos]

44. and hillary is talking about her plan being a first step towards universal health care.

and it works for me.

[Orsino]

45. A mandate for all, particularly for corporate executive's profits.

We Dems need more imagination than to promote corrupt Republican wet dreams.

[Hatchling]

46. I look at it like car insurance.

Everybody (at least inCalifornia) has to have car insurance. If you get in a accident without it, you are liable to penalties.

[OzarkDem]

47. Thanks for your post

its one of the most important issues in the campaign, one Obama is not dealing with.

[flordehinojos]

49. thank you.

:)