Hillary supporters: if she loses in TX or OH, are you willing to concede it's over?

[RiverStone]

Both Bill Clinton and James Carville have stated publicly and repeatedly - she must win both states on March 4th to have a chance to win the nomination.

The sooner we can (begin) to re-unite the party and focus energy and resources toward the GE - the better. I dearly hope Hillary would not again move the goal posts back and continue on to the convention. It would be damn tough to let go of Obama if the situation were reversed (so you have my empathy there), but when two of her top advisers show her the handwriting is on the wall...I hope she will listen. A loss in either state signals it's time to do what is best for the Democratic party - not Hillary.

If she loses TX or OH on March 4th, are you Hillary supporters willing to call it a day for her campaign?

And as an aside, as an Obama supporter, I'd be willing to concede she should stay in it "if" she were to win both states by 60%. Though, IMO, winning both states by a 60% margin seems highly unlikely at this point.

[my3boyz]

1. No. They will listen to whatever Bill and Hill tell them to do

If they say they are really ahead, the Clinton supporters (at least the extreme ones on this board) will believe it is true.

[last1standing]

5. How do you feel after spewing so much hate?

Is it therapeutic or does more hate bubble up to fill the void?

Really. I'd like to know.

[RiverStone]

9. I hope that the hate mongers...

From either campaign will soon GET that all it does is hurt our party - and give the pukes more talking points.

My hope is once our nominee is known, the mods will no longer tolerate any more hate shit pile on our nominee.

It will then be about - and ONLY about - beating the puke regime in the fall.



peace~:)

[last1standing]

12. Once the nominee is chosen DU will ban the haters who can't control themselves.

But I think most of them will just crawl back into their basements and resurface in 2012. :(

[GreenTea]

2. I do not care for either of the moderate corporate fucks, Hillary...

...or Obama.....Even so, it'll be far worse with republican corporate puppet John McCain..... Both Dems will lose against the fascist republican media machine, the swift-boating, the money and mostly, the republican owned electronic voting machines that are still in place, which over 85% of the country will vote with....

You really believe the fascist are going to just leave it up to the American voters? How fucking stupid are the people, so happy with their new cars & TV sets....The blue-blood republican fascist are simply NOT going to give up power now, in "their" country, (especially to either a woman or a black man) just as corporate fascism is rolling right on along and now they must offer up another dictator/puppet to hold corporate control. Bush and Cheney have gotten almost complete, total power and control to the executive branch....Does anyone fucking believe they are going to allow either Hillary or Obama with that power, no fucking way....But the idiots voters have been conned into really believing in the "will of the people" & that their vote counts....perfect to keep a passive ignorant worker base, while the republican corporate machine just crushes them.

BushCo & the republicans absolutely know they are going to steal yet another election again, and that's a true and sad fact. Just look to see how republicans are so deeply entrenched into the Dem party, they were able to get Obama to run against Hillary, why not it's working out perfectly for them....And It will absolutely bring on a President McCain.... all that Bush ass-kissing, bending over grabbing his ankles, doing whatever BushCo wanted or needed by McCain will indeed pay off - and the electronic voting machines will be kicking in for McCain...The republicans are truly only getting better at stealing elections, not worse. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Gov. Jebbie Bush as McCain's VP running mate....just in case the senile old flip-flopper McCain, rolls off his bed and "accidentally" kills himself.....

And there will be no doubt some kind(s) of "terrorist" threats occuring right up until the elections in November, keeping the stupid voters in fear and in line....The fascist "Bush corporate crime family" (empire) world control (with our tax paid for military) rolls right on along....

All these blood-sucking, greedy, murderous republicans need to be jailed and put before firing squads, the fucking insects!

[RiverStone]

8. You may be surprised

I share your concern that the pukes and their corporate bedfellows will try and steal the election again. But no amount of tampering will over ride what could be a Dem turn out of historic and unprecedented numbers.

That truth will be impossible to hide.

And Obama with what ever connections he has in place (corporate and otherwise) is still light years ahead of that war mongering bastard McLame. I see a much greater difference there than you - and am moore optimistic that Obama will be transforming for our country!

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. !

:thumbsup: Look for VP Jebbie, yep. Eight more years of this crap, at the very least.

[cali]

19. yet another confused DUer who thinks "MY opinion = fact"

bzzzzt. wrong. wrong. wrong. It's such a simple distinction. Do try and learn the difference.

Oh, and your opinion is mostly daft tin foil. it should be summarily dismissed by anyone with two functional brain cells that haven't been shorted out by over use of tin foil.

[RiverStone]

24. I think...

Once Obama seals the deal - those DUers (maybe in name only) that profess to not seeing a difference between good and evil...I think they may just disappear.

In a blink! :hi:

[hulklogan]

3. I concede that it's already over

But there's no need for the Obama worshippers (not the OP) to be arrogant about it.

[MoonRiver]

4. Of course. Frankly, I am not very optimistic right now.

But I won't actively support BO, except for, possibly, my obligatory vote.

[RiverStone]

15. Your vote means a lot!

If the situation were reversed, that is exactly what I would say about Hillary - so I get it.

But MyPetRock, at least you are not one of those who plan to sulk, run off in a tantrum, and on your way out declare I will not support the Dems this fall! I see those folks as doing nothing more than assisting the war mongering puke bastards. Why do they even even post on DU?

I will extend my sincere empathy to you when (if) Hillary formally withdraws from the race.

And I am grateful you are willing to hang with the party vote in the GE. :hi:

Thank you.

[MoonRiver]

67. I thank you for that RiverStone.

I really do not like Obama, but I dislike McCain more. I guess that's something.

[Binka]

20. But But Your $200,000 income and mulitple degrees might be tarnished.

As if Barack doesn't have accomplished academics on his side. Your remarks have made me pity your sorry ass.

[MoonRiver]

68. What does my family income and degrees have to do with anything??

:shrug:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

6. What's Ironic is Florida and Michigan are Going to Get Their Wish Afterall

Look for Billary to play that one out. FL and MI wanted to impact the process more than the other states and it looks like by being last they might.

Hope the party sticks to the rules and punishes them.

[last1standing]

10. I think the best case scenario with MI and FL is that they be seated.

But ONLY if Obama or Clinton pull out a big enough win that it would only be a magnanimous gesture. To let them call the race after their dirty dealings would be the death of the party. It would also be good if they held caucuses like Dean suggested but I don't see that happening. Too many partisan hacks in both states.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

18. Agree.......

They don't deserve to have any influence in the party given their contempt for the party.

But watch Billary change their tune. You better believe they'll try to go to court, even if the courts have upheld party rules in the past. I'm guessing they'll go to a Republican appointed federal court.

[last1standing]

7. I'm not really supporting either of them since I can't tell much of a difference either way.

But realistically, if Clinton can't pull out both states, I don't see where she wins. However, just like I felt with Edwards when I knew he couldn't win, she should stay in as long as she feels she should. Perhaps she has an agenda she wants to push or maybe she will still hold out hope. Either way, she has every right to run and I won't be part of a push to get her out.

[nonconformist]

11. Yes, I will. And here's a question...

If Hillary wins TX and OH big, are Obama supporters going to start calling for him to drop out, as you've been calling for Hillary to do for weeks?

[Colobo]

17. I'll support her if she wins!

[emilyg]

33. Thank you.

[dansolo]

21. No, because Hillary will still be behind in pledged delegaes

All that winning TX and OH would do is give her a reprieve. She still has an uphill battle to win the nomination.

[RiverStone]

36. Per my OP...

A 60% or so victory from Hillary in both states would suggest she should NOT drop out.

But Obama would be still in the delegate lead - so he should not drop out either. But geez, would PA become a giant battleground state then or what!!!

In the end, I'm voting for our Democratic nominee who ever it it! I have said that all along.

Though from today's perspective, I'm confident it will be Obama - and yet - I would also give Hillary my vote.

[mkultra]

39. I think for your question to be relevant

Then Obama would have had to lose 11 straight by big margins and have clear momentum.

So yes, if Obama was losing ground and going negative and losing momentum and losing every single primary or caucus that he has been faced with over that last several weeks, i would say throw in towel.

[nonconformist]

41. Oh, he's went negative all right.

So I do have my answer. Obama should fight to the convention, and try to change superdelegates to win. Hillary should roll over and die soon, though.

Got it.

[mkultra]

45. I think it goes something more like this

either clinton loses texas and ohio, stays in and goes on to win it later. Forcing you to sit up and turn of the alarm clock and go to work.

or

Hillary loses both and takes it to court for MI and FL where she loses.



Thats the only two pragmatic options.


And no, nothing Obama has ever said even comes close to that crap that comes out of that womans mouth.

[nonconformist]

49. Have you seen his "Harry and Louise" attacks on health care?

You know, clones of the very ads that the right wing used to squash universal healthcare back in the '90s?

[mkultra]

57. i sure have, doesnt even compare to the crap that comes out of her mouth

Hope you can Xerox? please!


Not to mention the constant stream of lies that come from her.

[nonconformist]

60. Are you new to politics?

You really think that a word (Xerox) is more offensive than using right wing rhetoric and strategies to attack universal healthcare, a primary progressive goal?

[mkultra]

63. lol, your an idiot if you think that the insults she has said are somehow more acceptable

Not everyone in the liberal camp WANTs manadtory universal health care. like ME. ill pay more in taxes but there is no way im paying an extra 5K a year. You can forget it.

[cloudythescribbler]

54. There isn't any absolute symmetry here -- Obama's won 11 in a row; and could afford some losses ...

One question is -- what if HRC wins in BOTH TX and OH, but by only one-digit margins in both states? She will also then be down by well over 100 pledged delegates, and quite a few raw votes as well.

[carlotta]

14. I've already conceded that it's over

Save for a dead girl or a live boy, as they say. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to support her as long as she decides to stay in the race.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. Ohio yes....Tecas NO

[OzarkDem]

22. I want a Dem in the White House, not McCain

that means I want to see it go all the way to the Convention.

[RiverStone]

27. Do you see how much damage that would cause?

And the tremendous amount of time and money that we otherwise could spend against McCain that would be wasted?

If Hillary does not have the math to win - hoping for some super delegate wheelin & dealing at the convention or some FLA/MI "lets seat them" fiasco....both battles would not only tear the party to shreds - but enable a puke victory in the fall.

I'm only suggesting Hillary get out when the math is no longer there - via the NORMAL primary and caucus process. Then and only then - but IMO - it will be on the morning of March 5th (or it should be).

The longer she stays in beyond that - the more it will hurt the party's chances in the fall.

[Colobo]

32. That means you want Obama in the WH.

[mkultra]

40. im afraid your contradicting yourself

Hillary loses to Mccain in every poll while obama doesnt.

A brokered convention kills the democratic momentum that we have in the country right now.

[terrya]

23. Yes.

If she loses in Texas and Ohio, it's over.

And I'll vote for Obama. If my vote means anything to you.

Would it be too much to ask for everyone to refrain from any "Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead" kind of posts if/when it's over for her, though? Thanks.

[RiverStone]

31. Your vote means a lot!

And I assure you - this Obama supporter would never dance on her (political) grave.

We need you terrya for what will be a bruising fall fight with the pukes; and we need Hillary as a Leader in the Senate, as the next Secretary of State, or as Obama's VP candidate (tho that would surprise me if they worked that out).

No gloating from me - just respect to her supporters for a hard fought battle.


peace~:)

[Adams Wulff]

34. Seriously,

If your ignore button is working properly, you should not see any threads like that on this board.

Having said that, and having seen some of the embarrassing posts put up here, I can see why you would say that.

But you won't see anything like that from me, or a number of other Obama supporters who truly appreciate Hillary and what she stands for.

From my point of view, the choices we have been given for the nomination of the Democratic Nomination this primary season has been an embarrassment of riches. From Clinton to Kucinich; from Edwards to Obama, a vote to any of them is a vote you could be proud of.

In the end, only one can come out on top. That is the nature of the process, and that, in a way, is unfortunate. When that end arrives, is up to the candidates themselves.

Good luck to all on Tuesday.

[ruggerson]

25. Curious as to why you generalize, incorrectly, about Hillary supporters

many of whom have already said it's all but over.

[RiverStone]

30. You may have a valid point...

Your right ruggerson, I did make an assumption that most Hillary supporters have not bought into the math argument yet.

Maybe I have not seen many concessions on DU yet, or just noticed more of the determined "hell no - we won't go" supporters.

I'm simply trying to get a barometer reading on how far Hillary supporters think she should take it if she loses in either state.

But thanks for the call out on my assumption - it was indeed that. :hi:

[jlpohio69]

26. Yes, I think TX and OH will decide it all

I am a Hillary supporter (and also very much like Obama too), but I agree that TX and OH will probably be the end if she does not pull out a win. Frankly, I thought Hillary's closing at the debate this week sounded a bit like a swan song, and would be a fitting end to what has been a great contest. But as politics go, anything can happen, so the next two weeks should be exciting to watch!

[rodeodance]

38. I agree. Let the democratic process play itself out.

[boston bean]

28. I will say that she should suspend her campaign, go home, not say a word

and let Obama get vetted.

[calico1]

29. Yes.

But with all the nastiness that has come from SOME of Obama's supporters, I don't know how easy it will be to unite the party.

At this point I am undecided as to whether or not to vote for him.

[RiverStone]

35. We need your vote...

And please don't let the "rub salt in the wound" bullshit from the hate mongers affect your decision so early.

If the situation were reversed, I'd be deeply disappointed and would need to take a break from here and politics far a while - and upon returning I assume DU would be a much more unified and friendlier hang out.

peace~:)

[calico1]

62. Thank you.

:hi:

[rodeodance]

37. as am I. Write-in looking like a good option.

At this point I am undecided as to whether or not to vote for him.

[RiverStone]

48. Glad your leaving the door open...

I would never be a vote vulture.

And yet rodeodance, I'm glad your not sulking away and slamming the door on the party either.

You have been a tireless Hillary supporter - and I admire your dedication.

In time - and after some of the very mean spirited posters leave DU - both Obama and the idea of voting for him may look a little different. He was not my first choice (Kucinich), but he is absolutely the best choice we have left.


peace~:)

[rodeodance]

51. we will see

[mkultra]

47. Hillary supporters have been even worse

So as far as im concerned, if you want to take your ball and go home, i encourage it.

[RiverStone]

50. Chill...we need Hillary supporters!

Hey, I get ya don't dig Hillary. But the bigger picture is we need every vote we can get to beat the pukes this fall.

When the dust settles, we are all on the same side after all.

I'm a strong advocate for Obama, but we will never bring him up by tearing Hillary supporters down! And I think Obama said something very similar at the last debate.

[mkultra]

56. i guess

Most have already said they will not vote or vote against obama. So either they are going to actually do it or they are just threatining to do. Either way, i plagerize Henry rollins in regard to ann coulter and say that when this primary is over, they will mostly just SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[calico1]

61. Thanks for making my point. And by the way,

notice that unlike you, in my post I referred to SOME Obama supporters. There are some very nice ones here as elsewhere. But it's people with attitudes like yours---all Hillary supporters are asses and we don't need you---that doesn't exactly make me enthused about voting for Mr. Obama.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mkultra]

65. and for your information i used the word some

Read a book.

[mkultra]

42. even if she loses she will not quit

If she doesnt win texas or Ohio, i believe she will start the fight, in ernest, to seat MI and FL. If she loses these two, she will take it to court. This of course will kill her support even more.

[RiverStone]

52. I hope your wrong.

Interesting that she would then need to respond to husband Bill's comments this week - "she needs to win TX and OH to have a chance."

I think if not --- and she keeps going --- sadly for her, she will simply look misguided. Votes will drop away in droves.

Better to quit after a good fight, then keep getting beat after the game's over.

[mkultra]

58. remember, she has determination

just very little competence.

[NastyRiffraff]

59. RiverStone, thanks for your voice of sanity

I think it will be over if she loses both OH & TX. I've always said I'd vote (reluctantly) for Obama if he wins the nomination. I'd even do some work for the Democratic Party (as opposed to Obama himself). I would not contribute money.

Meanwhile, I'm really really sick and tired of the 2,482 threads demanding that Hillary drop out, right now They're juvenile and arrogant. And it turns me off on Obama even more.

[Maddy McCall]

43. It's over when Hillary says it's over.

I'm with her until then.

[GarbagemanLB]

44. Spoken like a true Hillbot.

[mkultra]

46. actually, its over when the elctorate says so

We decide, not her.

[Tom Rinaldo]

53. If she lost both, yes. If she lost one, probably...

...but maybe not if she had a strong win in one and just barely lost the other - I might have to think about it. If she wins both, by whatever margins, absolutely not. I simply do not buy the arguments that claim now Hiilar has to win a super majority in both OH and TX to continue. Frankly, although some who make that case no doubt are sincere, I think that position is self serving bullshit.

If Clinton comes back now, in the face of the wide spread expectations being expressed by many of how "unstoppable" Obama is now, the reaction to her winning Texas and Ohio will be as dramatic as the reaction to her losing 11 contests before it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Hillary somehow defeating Obama in the upcoming big contests with all the momentum Obama now has, with most of the talking heads saying they can't see how Obama can lose a primary now, or how Hillary can even hope to turn it around, would rock the political world. By no means would that give her the nomination instead, but the race for the nomination from that point forward would very much still be in play. If that happened, and then if Hillary won Pennsylvania and then Puerto Rico, neither candidate is likely to go into the convention with a strong lead in pledged delegates. Certainly Hillary can still win, and still would deserve to win if ENOUGH of these things happened:

What if Super Delegates take into account who gets the most popular votes in all the contests combined - and Clinton ends up ahead there? What if she by far wins the most registered Democratic voters in the Democratic Primaries and caucuses? What if she does better than Obama in the contests when results are tabulated by secret ballots at polling stations that are open for a full 12 to 14 hours on Election day ? What if some stuff comes out in the news from future reporting that tarnishes Obama in some way between now and the end of the primaries? What if Clinton pulls ahead in the national polling again and keeps building on that lead heading into the convention? What if some super delegates think they should at least take into consideration the wishes of the disenfranchised voters of FL and MI? What if neither candidate comes close to winning enough pledged delegates and all the final momentum belongs to Clinton?

If enough of those things happened, as unlikely as some might feel that would be, I don't think Obama limping into the convention, even with a very slim lead in pledged delegates, would or should automatically guarantee him the Democratic nomination. We will all know more in a few weeks.

[tritsofme]

55. The writing is on the wall IMO.

However I believe she has earned a right to a last stand in TX and OH.

[NashVegas]

66. I Won't Have To

Hillary Clinton will. What I say or do doesn't matter.