Researched the Obama Ohio mailer and found that

[Tennessee Gal]

Some Ohio residents received the first mailer on 2/13 and the second on 2/15.
http://www.ohiodailyblog.com/content/obama-mailer-slams-clinton-nafta
http://www.ohiodailyblog.com/content/second-obama-mailer-slams-clinton-health-care-plan

That is backed up by this: The mailers have been in circulation in Ohio for several days.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332089,00.html


The Clinton campaign had seen the mailers in other states, had already discredited them, and believed they were no longer being used. That is why Hillary used the word "continuing" in her statement today when someone in the crowd showed her that they were being sent out in Ohio.

"I have to express my deep disappointment that he is continuing to send false and discredited mailings with information that is not true to the voters of Ohio. He says one thing in speeches, and then he turns around and does this."

Obama talks all the time of the "politics of old", "the politics of destruction", and how he wants to rise above that and have "substantive" debate. If that is so, why is he continuing to send out these mailers. And if this race is already over as his supporters apparently believe, perhaps they should explain to people why Obama continues attacking Hillary with these mailers.

[ericgtr]

1. So just because they were new in Ohio

we're supposed to believe Hillary's people never knew the same one existed two weeks ago elsewhere then? She's putting on a drama show because she's tanking.

[BlackVelvet04]

2. Try reading the OP....

or maybe you could just buy a clue.

[ericgtr]

6. If I did you would just take my money and spend it doughnuts

and I would rather use it to fund a campaign that knows how to manage it but thanks for the offer.

[Tennessee Gal]

9. Huh?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

[ericgtr]

10. You said "buy" a clue

as the op I would hope that you could remember what you posted only minutes ago.

[Tennessee Gal]

12. It wasn't me who posted that.

I guess you do have a reading comprehension problem.

[KAZ]

20. You sure replied to it, though.

[Tennessee Gal]

30. Yep, I first replied with post #4.

[George II]

119. What in those two mailers was false?

That's the question - righteous indignation about something that quite possible be true!

[Tennessee Gal]

130. ok

Sen. Obama sent out a mailer that claimed Hillary said NAFTA was a "boon to the economy" when she never did.

INDEPENDENT EXPERTS ACKNOWLEDGED AND CONDEMNED OBAMA’S USE OF HARRY & LOUISE STYLE ATTACKS

Harbage, 2/23/08: “As Senator John Edwards former Healthcare Advisor and a currently unaffiliated healthcare reform proponent, I think that anyone familiar with the Harry and Louise campaign from the early 1990s would immediately recognize the similarity between the insurance industry’s attacks and the Obama Campaign’s mailer. This attack simply drives the debate to the lowest common denominator of generating fear.”

Ezra Klein, American Prospect: “When I say that Obama is demagoguing universal health care, this sort of campaign literature is what I'm talking about…The Obama campaign kept their hairstyles and barely even changed their clothing -- which is really quite unfair to Harry and Louise, who probably let go of the plaid years back. What's worse is that the argument they're making is applicable to any kind of universal health care arrangement, including the arrangements Obama himself will eventually have to adopt.”

Paul Krugman, New York Times, 2/1/08: “Sorry, but this is just destructive — like the Obama plan, the Clinton plan offers subsidies to lower-income families. And BO himself has conceded that he might have to penalize people who don’t buy insurance until they need care. So this is just poisoning the well for health care reform. The politics of hope, indeed…I know that Obama supporters want to hear no evil, but this is really, really bad.”

Factcheck.org 2/4/08: “We agree that there is a resemblance between the photo on the Obama mailer and the TV spots. In those ads actors portraying a white, middle-class couple expressed grave concerns about how the Clinton administration's health care plan would affect them. The ads were part of a $17 million campaign by the insurance industry that was widely credited – rightly or wrongly – with contributing to the defeat of the Clinton plan, and the ads still anger many advocates of broader government efforts to provide health insurance.”

Trudy Lieberman, Columbia Review of Journalism, 2/4/08: “ new mailer attacking proposal resurrects the ghosts of Harry and Louise, the infamous pair in TV commercials sponsored by the insurance industry, which helped sink Bill Clinton’s efforts at reform. In those ads, a man and woman seated at the kitchen table worry that under his plan they wouldn’t be able to choose their doctor. The message: “If we let the government choose, we lose.” In Obama’s mailer, a man and a woman are seated in the same positions at a kitchen table—the woman even has the same long, blonde hair. The message: “Hillary’s plan forces everyone to buy insurance even if you can’t afford it. Is that the best we can do for families struggling with high health care costs?”

[George II]

137. OK....

So, I ask again, what is false in those mailers? All you've presented is a series of interpretations of the contents of a mailer. Nowhere is there a factual contradiction of anything in that mailer.

And, with this list of opinions, one other thing must be asked. Hillary Clinton went on the air yesterday (or maybe Friday), Feb 22 or 23, expressing indignation of this "new" mailer. But the contents of it are discussed by three of your citations on Feb. 1, 4, and 4 - almost THREE weeks ago! So why all of this objection to the mailer NOW? Could it be that Clinton wasn't even halfway through 11 consecutive primary/caucus losses? Could it be that the contents of that mailer was not such a big issue to her campaign back then but, now that the campaign is in a tailspin they have to create issues?

Seems like an act of desperation to me.

[Tennessee Gal]

144. I don't recall her calling it a "new" mailer.

Do you have a reference to that quote?

[George II]

146. She was complaining about the Ohio mailings that apparently were recently mailed, but...

the question remains, if the mailers were critiqued (by YOUR sources) and debunked on February 1, 4, and 4, why all this sudden indignation three weeks later? She's called Obama out to "come to Ohio to debate your tactics", but she KNEW what was in the mailer 3 weeks ago and had a debate with him last week. Why didn't she say anything about them at that debate? Probably because the campaign wasn't in a tailspin yet and it makes better press to appear alone on a stage and act indignant!

And I ask once again, what in those mailers was false?

[Tennessee Gal]

4. Perhaps you need to read what I posted again.

[Arkana]

131. Exactly--if the mailers are so untrue

then why didn't she put on her angry pants then? Why now?

[Tennessee Gal]

135. My OP explains that.

[George II]

141. Not really, but let's play along

You say the Clinton campaign "discredited them", not proved them false.

And if they were false weeks ago, why wait until she was in the tank before throwing a fit, waving them in the air and challenging Obama to a debate THAT IS ALREADY SCHEDULED?????

It's a big show, and if it was on Broadway it would be cancelled after the first night!

PS - what specifically is FALSE in those mailers?

[Tennessee Gal]

145. Because she thought he was not using them any more.

That is what my OP is about.

[George II]

147. Well, his campaing still is using them....

...and she didn't object as strunuously when he first used them as she did over the weekend. And she didn't make reference to anything about him previously using them or agreeing not to use them any more. All she did was get on a stage, feign indignation, wave them in the air and issue a phony challenge to meet her in Ohio to debate here - KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE DEBATE WAS ALREADY SCHEDULED!!!!

It's desperate grandstanding as I see it.

PS - AGAIN - what specifically is FALSE in those mailers?

[George II]

148. Upon further review, apparently Obama's campaign is NOT using them any longer?

Look at your OP, and Clinton's rage from Saturday. It once again causes one to stop and ask the question about why this is such an issue NOW?

First, as you posted, the people in Ohio who received the mailers received them on Feb. 13 and Feb. 15.

Now, Clinton did her grandstanding tantrum on February 24 - NINE DAYS after the last mailer was received (probably 10-12 days after the last one was mailed). WHY THE RAGE NOW? Why complain that his campaign was not going to use them any longer? When was the so-called "agreement" to not use them made? Why the fake "challenge" to an already scheduled debate?

Once again, it's a big show about a dead issue, but something had to be done to rile up the masses. Hopefully tomorrow night when (IF) she brings it up at the debate it can be shown to be the folly that it really is. My guess? She won't say a peep about it!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

132. yes

[AX10]

3. K & R!

Obama is a politician. I am greatly offended when he acts as he is above all of us.
He is human, like you and I.
Indeed, he is an unsavory character.

[CatnHat]

15. K&R

[Voice for Peace]

84. Wow, I don't see it that way at all

ie, Obama claiming to be, or acting as if he is, above everyone else..

He doesn't strike me in the least to be coming from such a place. I have more that impression from Hillary, at least that she is above other candidates, from her facial expressions when other candidates have been speaking, her tone of voice, etc. There is a smugness, or something, that makes me uncomfortable about her. It doesn't look like confidence to me, it looks more like disdain.

[Tennessee Gal]

86. That is precisely how I see Obama.

"You're likeable enough Hillary."

:eyes:

[usregimechange]

5. Backed up by Fox News...

[peace13]

8. Well there you have it! n/t

[rodeodance]

38. have what?--

[BenDavid]

14. Newsday had corrected the record about her views on the

agreement. the paper published a blog item earlier this month saying Obama's use of the word "boon" was unfair.
"Obama's use of the citation in this way does strike us as misleading. The quote marks make it look as if Hillary said "boon," not us. It's an example of the kind of slim reeds campaigns use to try to win an office."
This Obama’s flyer is synonymous to Nytimes story on John McCain; the question Hillary Clinton needs to answer should be about the substance of the content of the flyers.

Hypocrites will always get outed and I hope HRC slams the door on this reprobate.....

[sandnsea]

7. Except they aren't discredited

The only thing that has changed is the one newspaper said they may have mischaracterized her position on NAFTA. It doesn't change the fact that that WAS her position on NAFTA. Just because SHE doesn't like what the fliers say, that doesn't mean they aren't true.

[Tennessee Gal]

11. They have, but I am not going to argue with an Obama supporter.

What I posted is true. You can believe it or not. I really don't care.

[KAZ]

17. "not going to argue"? So why start a thread? Spam?

[Tennessee Gal]

29. Information.

[KAZ]

34. Uh, no, that's called spam. You start a thread, you back it ..

.. up, when folks who reply disagree with it.

[Tennessee Gal]

41. I have been responding.

That does mean I have to argue with someone who has repeatedly demonstrated they are not open to reasonable discussion.

[jackson_dem]

56. Truth about the distance between Obama's image/rhetoric and the real Obama=spam to Obamanation

[Tennessee Gal]

59. Yep, you got it!

[KAZ]

72. A yup, you got it. Still didn't answer my question. Why post and not

reply to non-flamebait replies.

Speaking of flames, The Jackson-off above your post is one of the worst spammers on this board.

[Tennessee Gal]

73. I did respond to you. #41

[Tennessee Gal]

89. I have been at DU since 2002.

I am familiar with Jackson Dem, thank you.

[rodeodance]

99. yes, you have been.

[George II]

142. Information? Then you should be known as Miss Information!

[Tarc]

18. Discussion with sandnsea are like hitting your head against the wall

Its only good when it stops.

[sandnsea]

19. Facts are stubborn like that

Sorry they give you a headache.

[Tarc]

33. They day you introduce a fact into a discussion is the day Osama wins Humanitarian of the Year

[sandnsea]

21. Or you can look at the facts

http://thepage.time.com/saturday-obama-campaign-release/

[Tennessee Gal]

26. There you have it! Obama campaign release must be factual!

LOL!

[sandnsea]

37. Prove they aren't

You can't, because Hillary is the liar in this primary. That's the only thing she's been ready to do from day one.

[Tennessee Gal]

43. LOL! Thank you for proving my point.

[sandnsea]

47. Very nice substantive debate

So much like Hillary. You can't win on facts so you just lob random attacks and hope they reach a target somewhere. Sad. Bye.

[jackson_dem]

58. Substantive debate?

"You can't, because Hillary is the liar in this primary. That's the only thing she's been ready to do from day one."

[Cameron27]

115. It's useless to argue with them,

it's driven me post somethings in anger that I usually try to avoid. Maybe ridicule is better lol.

[rodeodance]

44. You are the one make the claim that Obama's fact are right. Therefore it is you who must prove this.

[rodeodance]

45. btw--"Hillary is the liar" is not proving anything.

[UALRBSofL]

28. Tennessee Gal

Hillary will kick Obama to the curb next time he sends out those fliers extorting her plan for healthcare or free trade. :)

[Beacool]

13. Preaching to the choir in my case.

I have said for months that Obama is all smoke and mirrors and that he's just another politician who is a product of the Chicago Southside machine. Sooner or later, the media and his supporters will have to land on earth and deal with that fact.

In the meantime, let's keep repeating his mantra: hope, change, hope, change, hope.........

[jgraz]

16. Why should Obama practice the "politics of destruction" when Hillary is destroying herself?

She's much better than Obama could ever hope to be.

[Tarc]

22. Hillary is destroying herself, Hillary is floundering

is in disarray
is in chaos
is in disorder
is unstable

Gotta hand it to you Obama culties, at least you've finally discovered a thesaurus to give the old, tired memes at least the semblance of variety.

[jgraz]

31. Well, it is challenging to come up with new words for each primary defeat

Whatever will we do when she drops Texas by 30 points? I'd better resubscribe to word-of-the-day.

[Tennessee Gal]

25. Since when is standing up for oneself a bad thing?

Oh, I guess it is okay when Obama does it, but bad when Hillary does it.

[jgraz]

52. Exactly. It is okay when Obama does it and bad when Hillary does it.

Because -- and this is important -- HILLARY DOES IT BADLY.

Unlike Hillary, Obama has a sense of propriety and dignity. His response today was calm, graceful and absolutely devastating.

[Tennessee Gal]

54. LOL! Yeah, he's a smooth talker alright.

[jgraz]

55. That kind of smooth talk wins elections

Grandpa McInsane won't know what hit him.

[Tennessee Gal]

63. Obama won't know what hit him when the right wing jumps on him.

[jgraz]

71. I don't know where you've been, but the right wing's been jumping on him for months.

We've just been calling them "The Clintons".

[Tennessee Gal]

74. There ya go. Nice divisive post.

I thought Obama opposed that.

[jgraz]

76. I'm not the one crapping on our presumptive nominee

And I have no problem with divisive posts. I'd be perfectly happy if the most hateful of the Hillaroids would take a flying leap out of our big tent.

They can take Harold Ford and his DLC fifth-columnists with them.

[Tennessee Gal]

78. Yeah, welcome to Obama's big tent of unity!

[jgraz]

80. Note my sig line. I don't support all of Obama's rhetoric

I'd be perfectly happy for him to drop the "let's all get along" crap.

[Maat]

83. Looks like I've been through the same thing you have, Jgraz.

First Dennis, then John, and, now, Obama.

I am sincerely questioning whether or not I could pull the level for Hillary; I want to be a good Dem, but I just am questioning whether or not I could vote for such a corporatist hawk.

[Tennessee Gal]

88. I've been there.

I voted for Edwards in my primary with early voting just before John dropped out.

I considered Obama at that point, but just could not do it. I chose Hillary.

[jgraz]

114. I'm glad I don't have to change it again.

I think it would have been something like this:

Proud to be 100% behind Dennis Kucinich ... um ... 90% behind John Edwards ... ok ... 80% behind Barack Obama ... aw crap.

Proud to be ... 100% AGAINST John McCain!!

[Maat]

143. Now, THAT got a laugh out of me (n/t).

[Tennessee Gal]

87. Well, you can certainly support Obama 80% of the time without

dissing the Clintons like you did.

[jgraz]

112. I'm not dissing the Clintons to support Obama

I'm dissing them because I've been working against their destructive brand of politics since 1992 and I'm thoroughly sick of them.

[Tennessee Gal]

133. Well, you posted this.

I don't know where you've been, but the right wing's been jumping on him for months.
We've just been calling them "The Clintons".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have been fighting the right wing all my adult life and "the Clintons" are certainly not the right wing.

[Kurovski]

81. I don't get this...

Obama supporters are called "cultists" , but are also derided for not being just like him.

This is not saying you, Tennessee Gal, have accused anyone of being cult-like. I don't know if you have. It just struck me now how broad and frequently repeated messages sometimes work at cross-purposes during campaigns.

[Tennessee Gal]

91. I am simply pointing out that Obama speaks to the point

of bringing everyone together. Many of the posts here on DU serve to do quite the opposite.

[Arkana]

129. Yeah guys because stuff that Obama's supporters say on a third-party

message board are TOTALLY representative of his campaign AND him!

To "plagiarize" one of you Hillary supporters' favorite lines: "Get real."

[Adelante]

85. HAHAHA

:rofl:

[Tennessee Gal]

92. You think it's funny to make divisive cracks about the Clintons.

There's that Obama unity again.

[Adelante]

105. What I do not think is funny is this

The Clinton campaign's efforts with the press in recent weeks to link Obama to a '60s radical who set bombs when Obama was 8 years old and who gave $200 to his Illinois Senate campaign; a sordid, despicable, underhanded, divisive, and destructive tactic not unlike the right wing's efforts to link Hillary to the Black Panthers for a summer job she held when she was 22 years old. Right wing efforts, by the way, against which I defended the Clintons for fifteen years, only to have them behave in the same reactionary, anti-Democratic, positively Nixonian, way.

Divisive? Unity? Now that's funny.

[jackson_dem]

60. The same reason the hypocrite practiced the politics of destruction against Edwards in Iowa

[Beausoir]

23. So, your point is...Obama lied. But he lied earlier than Clinton said?

Nice. Well played.

I'm sure he'll thank your personally for digging up that factoid.

Meanwhile...he still lied.

[Tennessee Gal]

32. Not sure I follow your point.

That is not what I said in the OP.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

24. I knew it....that is exactly why she went on camera and called Obama out publicly....he weaseled

[DUyellow]

27. no, she ran out of money to send out her mailers...

[rodeodance]

40. please stick to the OP topic--your comments are nonproductive to discussion

[DUyellow]

82. I am going to bookmark this post...

[rodeodance]

101. i am honored.

[jackson_dem]

62. $25 million raised in a month isn't enough?

Mitt are you posting on DU now?

[DUyellow]

79. I guess not if she is having a fund raiser on her front page to run TV ads

[JTFrog]

100. Not when your staying at the Bellagio and Four Seasons and forking out millions

to advisers and are unable to pay off the vendors and small state businesses that supported her when she blew through their towns.

[Tennessee Gal]

35. Yep, he weasled.

[rodeodance]

36. But she also took this argument on the stump. abc eve. news--the croud went wild.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

39. hahah good on Hillary!

[rodeodance]

48. you bet---she is dynamite when she is on a role.

[ProSense]

42. The mailers are not inaccurate and Hillary has repeatedly

praised NAFTA, even in her own book.

[Tennessee Gal]

53. ok

The link you provided led to Obama's web site and all it said about her book is this:

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a "Victory" For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA."

There is no praise in that statement.

[jackson_dem]

64. Wow, Hill thinks getting a bill passed is a legislative victory!

What a crazy concept! :sarcasm:

[ProSense]

69. Right, because she only praised it the other 12 comment. n/t

[druidity33]

126. well

there were A LOT more quotes on that page that CLEARLY show her support and praise of NAFTA. You pick the one that doesn't exemplify "praise" and you think you've proven your point?

At what point does a HRC supporter admit they may be wrong?

:shrug:

[Tennessee Gal]

134. I addressed the one the poster brought up - supposedly in her book.

The link proved the poster wrong.

[druidity33]

138. per ProSense's link

i find this:




"Hillary Clinton's Support of NAFTA Has Been Well Documented
February 23, 2008

HILLARY CLINTON PRAISED NAFTA FOR YEARS

2006/2008: Newsday Reviewed Clinton's Statements, Concluded She Supported NAFTA. According to a Newsday issues rundown, "Clinton thinks NAFTA has been a boon to the economy." Newsday wrote in 2008, the word "boon" was their "characterization of how we best understood her position on NAFTA, based on a review of past stories and her public statements." (New York Newsday, 9/11/06; Newsday blog, 2/15/08)

2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. "Creating a free trade zone in North America—the largest free trade zone in the world—would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once . I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances." (Living History, 182)

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a "Victory" For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA." (Living History, p.231)

1998: Clinton Praised Corporations for Their Efforts On Behalf of NAFTA. The Buffalo News reported, "As first lady, Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with either trade move. Nor has she repudiated them. In a 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." (Buffalo News (New York), 7/16/07)

1996: Clinton Said "I Think Everybody Is In Favor Of Free And Fair Trade. I Think NAFTA Is Proving Its Worth." A questioner pointed out that UNITE opposes the North American Free Trade Agreement, backed by the Clinton administration, on grounds it sends American jobs to Mexico. In March 1996, three years after President Clinton signed NAFTA into law, Hillary Clinton said, "I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth," she said, adding that if American workers can compete fairly, they can match any competition. "That's what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about," she said. (AP, 3/6/96)

1996: Clinton "Vowed That Her Husband Would Continue To Support Economic Growth In South Texas Through Initiatives Such As The North American Free Trade Agreement." AP wrote, "Mrs. Clinton vowed that her husband would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Rio Grande Valley empowerment zone, which allows tax breaks to businesses that relocate to the border." (AP, 11/2/96)

1996: Hillary Clinton "Touted" President Clinton's Support for NAFTA, Saying it Would Reap Widespread Benefit. On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region." (United Press International, 11/1/96)







Care to take a stab at any of these quotes that you're conveniently ignoring?



:shrug:

[oviedodem]

46. So she knew about this during the debate. And sat on it for how long?

You know, to hell with her!!!

Firstly, Obama during all the little snipes from bill in SC, the recent "domestic terrorist" crap, plagiarism crap etc has NEVER shouted out in public against Hillary like she did today; whiner.

Secondly, the mailer is exactly what he has been saying about the health care and NAFTA for months. Why is she acting like this is new news.

Thirdly, I was going to vote for Hillary if she won the nom by not stealing it (this would be by having the pop vote & pledged delegates NOT back room dealing) but after this today NO WAY IN HELL!!

[noiretextatique]

50. obama has been consistently "defending himself" in public

i believe you would call that whining when clinton does it.

[rodeodance]

51. Read the OP before you spout off and you will not look so foolish:

So she knew about this during the debate. And sat on it for how long?

[Tennessee Gal]

57. Please read my OP carefully.

She thought he was no longer using these mailers. Today she found out he is using them in Ohio. Understand? She did not know this during the last debate.

[TheDoorbellRang]

68. Do you know when she previously discredited these mailers? n/t

[Tennessee Gal]

77. Around the first of February.

[NastyRiffraff]

49. Wow, thanks for your research

I missed that word "continuing." Hillary kept it low key when she and her staff discredited the previous flyers. Her anger that they were still being mailed out is perfectly understandable.

One little word can make a huge difference. I missed it; many other people did, too.

[Tennessee Gal]

65. I thought people missed that one little word and it does make a

difference. That is the reason for my post.

[Lucinda]

61. Thanks for the research!

:hi:

[bridgit]

66. Thank you for your post...

:kick:

[Lady President]

67. 3rd Wave this Week

My mother received the flyers this week. They arrived Feb. 21-24. The weather was too bad for her to go to the mailbox several days, so I can only estimate the day that they arrived. I was surprised that there was another batch of them sent.

[Tennessee Gal]

70. In Ohio? She has received several of them?

[Lady President]

75. Yes, Columbus OH

My mother and grandmother live together. My grandmother received one of each flyer around the 15th. My mother's set was in the mailbox today.

[Honeycombe8]

90. The issue is whether they are TRUE. It's "old politics" to distort the truth.

In reading the mailer about NAFTA and the Clintons, it does seem to be factual. And as I recall it.

There should also be a mailer on China, while they're at it.

[Tennessee Gal]

94. Did Hillary Clinton Really Support NAFTA? Aides, Biographers Say No

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/14/did-hillary-clinton-reall_n_86674.html

[elizm]

93. Were there lies in the mailer? nt

[Tennessee Gal]

95. They are dishonest.

[elizm]

96. How so?

[Tennessee Gal]

97. Harry & Louise Again?

Obama mailer on Clinton health care plan lacks context.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/harry_louise_again.html

And this:

"I know that Hillary on occasion has said — just last year said this (NAFTA) was a boon to the economy."

False.
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/305/

[elizm]

98. There were no lies....unlike Hillary's mailer in New Hampshire

Firing back at Hillary's criticism of his NAFTA mailers here, Obama said tonight that she can't pick and choose from her husband's administration.

"You can’t be for something or take credit for an administration and 35 years of experience and then when you run for president suggest somehow you didn’t really mean what you said back then," Obama said to applause at a rally of about 5,000. "It doesn't work that way."

He said Clinton had in fact supported the trade deal that is blamed for thousands of job losses in the industrial hub of this state and that is viewed as something akin to cancer by Ohio Democrats.

"The truth is that Sen. Clinton supported NAFTA before she ran for president. That is indisupatable. She called it 'a victory' in her book. She told people it has proved its worth. T hose are facts."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Obama_responds_and_hits_Clintons_experience.html

[Tennessee Gal]

102. Couple of things.

What she said in her book was that it was a "victory" for Bill, who supported it. I have already posted information saying that she was against it.

Mickey Kantor the former U.S. Secretary of Commerce and Clinton adviser said this: "Hillary Clinton was one of the great skeptics in the discussion as to whether he should do. So she was always skeptical beginning in 1992 and onward."

Kantor went on to note, Hillary Clinton long held reservations over the labor and environmental fallouts of the free trade agreement.

Carl Bernstein, another Clinton biographer, echoed much the same tale during a recent appearance on CNN.

"'Bill,'" he recalled Hillary Clinton as saying, "'you are doing Republican economics when you are doing NAFTA.' She was against NAFTA. And if she would somehow come out and tell the real story of what she fought for in the White House and failed in a big argument with her husband she would end up moving much closer to those Edwards followers."

"The whole time that she was first lady," said Robert Shapiro, the undersecretary of commerce during the Clinton White House years, "she, like everybody else... not supposed to deviate from the position of the administration. There is no freedom of speech in there, and that certainly applies to a first lady."

On the 2008 campaign trail, Clinton has been free of those shackles. And, on many occasions, she has expressed misgivings about NAFTA, although usually she qualifies her statements by saying she supports the underlying idea.

"I believe in the general principles it represented," she said last February, noting that she voted against CAFTA because of a lack of environmental and labor standards. "But what we have learned is that we have to drive a tougher bargain. Our market is the market that everybody wants to be in. We should quit giving it away so willy-nilly. I believe we need tougher enforcement of the trade agreements we already have."

[elizm]

111. She was not in the White House in 2004..

When she said "I think, on balance, NAFTA has been good for New York and America"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0swdRvYgw

[Tennessee Gal]

113. One sentence. What was the context? What else did she say?

The mailer falsely claims that Hillary said NAFTA was a "boon" to the economy. Hillary never said that. The Obama campaign is basing the quote on a 2006 Newsday article that characterized her views this way without any substantiation. In fact, Newsday recently said that the Obama campaign's use of their article was "misleading." The Politico called the Obama campaign's use of the quote "bogus."

[stillcool]

103. same old, same old...

Lather, rinse, repeat

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------

Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

[Tennessee Gal]

106. None of that addresses my OP.

[stillcool]

122. Oh please...

the article I posted appeared in newspapers on Feb 1. In the last 23 days, nothing has been deemed to be inaccurate in the wording of that flier. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Tennessee Gal]

124. Actually it has. But believe what you want.

[stillcool]

125. I have read about this...

over the weeks...and what I read..as the words appeared on the page..was that while there is certain wording in it that has been deemed to be misleading there is nothing 'false'. Perhaps you could provide me with a link that refutes what has previously been published?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/harry_louise_again.html
Obama mailer on Clinton health care plan lacks context.
Summary

An Obama mailer stretches the differences between the candidates on health care. Specifically:

* It touts measures included in Obama's plan to help low-income individuals buy insurance but fails to mention that Clinton would provide similar financial assistance.

* It says Obama's plan would save the average family $2,500 per year – an estimate provided by experts at the campaign's request – but doesn't say that Clinton estimates hers will save $2,200 per year.

* It also neglects to point out that Clinton's plan isn't the only one that would have an enforcement mechanism for those who failed to purchase insurance. Obama's plan, which would require that children be insured, would need one as well, though it would affect fewer persons.

The Clinton campaign objected to the mailer on grounds that its image of a middle-class white couple is reminiscent of the "Harry and Louise" TV spots that the health insurance industry used to attack the 1993 Clinton health care plan. We see the resemblance, but fail to see the relevancy.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/harry_louise_again.html

[Tennessee Gal]

128. I have said they are misleading. I even used the same link you just did.

[stillcool]

140. this is what you said....

The Clinton campaign had seen the mailers in other states, had already discredited them,(WRONG) and believed they were no longer being used. That is why Hillary used the word "continuing" in her statement today when someone in the crowd showed her that they were being sent out in Ohio.

"I have to express my deep disappointment that he is continuing to send false and discredited mailings(WRONG) with information that is not true(WRONG) to the voters of Ohio. He says one thing in speeches, and then he turns around and does this."

Obama talks all the time of the "politics of old", "the politics of destruction", and how he wants to rise above that and have "substantive" debate. If that is so, why is he continuing to send out these mailers. And if this race is already over as his supporters apparently believe, perhaps they should explain to people why Obama continues attacking Hillary with these mailers.

There was nothing that was not factual in the mailing. On the other hand....

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."
Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

[totodeinhere]

104. According to Factcheck.org, Clinton has sent out misleading mailers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4734123&mesg_id=4734123

This is a primary election. Both sides might try to stretch things a bit from time to time. So this fake outrage on the part of the Clinton campaign is laughable.

[Tennessee Gal]

107. That was dated 2/6/08.

Is her campaign still sending those mailers out? If they are, you have a valid point.

That was the point Hillary was making yesterday. Obama sent those mailers out at the first of February. They were challenged on their accuracy. Clinton found out yesterday (2/23/08) that he was still using them. That was her point.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. Of Course. These Had Been Discussed In The Past. She Was Shocked He Was Still Using Such Dirty

tactics. Seems to make perfect sense really. I just think some don't want to have to be objective anymore to what's real and what's not.

It is quite dirty for Obama to continue to use these flyers, and any of his supporters claiming otherwise, while constantly spouting at the mouth as to how dirty Hillary plays, are being the epitome of hypocrites.

[Tennessee Gal]

109. Precisely right!

Thank you for posting.

[Cameron27]

117. Exactly

"It is quite dirty for Obama to continue to use these flyers, and any of his supporters claiming otherwise, while constantly spouting at the mouth as to how dirty Hillary plays, are being the epitome of hypocrites."

[Tennessee Gal]

110. k

[Cameron27]

116. Bookmarking,

very well done!

K&R

[SoxFan]

118. Shocked! Shocked!

[George II]

120. "politics of old", "the politics of destruction"

So, how did you feel about Clinton calling Obama's ideas "change you can Xerox"? Was that acceptable?

[Tennessee Gal]

121. She was talking about his quotes.

[George II]

123. So then, to you...

...a candidate can go on the attack as long as it's YOUR candidate, right?

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

By the way, did you see the analysis done by Olbermann shortly after the debate? Clinton stole complete sentences from Bill's 1992 campaigns AND John Edwards' speeches just a month or so ago.

[Tennessee Gal]

127. No, but candidates should not attack through misleading statements or mailers.

"Clinton stole complete sentences from Bill's 1992 campaigns AND John Edwards' speeches just a month or so ago."

Really? Complete sentences? Do you have evidence of that?

[George II]

139. Check transcripts or Youtubes of Olbermann's post-debate discussion (maybe his show the next night)

I did not record them, but they're there. Surely you've seen the video of Edwards during one of his last debate appearances (I incorrectly called it one of his speeches about a month ago, sorry), saying precisely what Clinton said toward the end of last week's debate, that "we'll all be alright (referring to the candidates).........." Clinton repeated almost WORD FOR WORD the exact same statement as Edwards weeks ago. Olbermann had several other examples of where Clinton used exact statements made by others in her recent appearances.

[Marie26]

136. Factcheck.org concludes that Obama mailing is misleading

CNN just had a story on this, and the anchor asked their "fact check" reporter if the Obama mailing was false, as Hillary had claimed. The CNN "fact checker" then goes into a long spiel about how Obama has to combat these awful rumors & showed the Obama site. Then he showed the Clinton site - which has a page on the Nafta maiing. Then he said that an independent 3rd party group has analyzed the veracity of these mailings, and he showed the front page of Factcheck.org. In the screen shot, you can make out a headline:" Obama Mailings 'False'?". And then he moves onto fund-raising efforts. But the CNN 'fact checker' NEVER actually answered the question. He never actually analyzed or "fact checked" the mailing, or even reported what the independent group had concluded. That's how I knew that Factcheck had indeed concluded that the mailing was false - apparently you can't say anything critical of Obama on TV news. Our media is a joke.

Obama Mailings 'False'?
February 24, 2008
Clinton says Democrats should be "outraged." You be the judge.

We find that a mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleading. One that attacks her health care plan we have previously described as straining the facts, though not exactly "false."

* Trade: A mailer showing a locked plant gate quotes Clinton as saying she believed NAFTA was "a boon" to the economy. Those are not her words and Obama was wrong to put quote marks around them. In fact, she's been described by a biographer as privately opposing NAFTA in the White House.

* Health Care: A second mailer said Clinton's health care plan "forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can't afford it." We have previously said that mailer "lacks context" and strains the facts. But both Obama and Clinton have been exaggerating their differences on this issue.

...
On the front of the four-page NAFTA mailer appears a headline saying, "Hillary Clinton believed NAFTA was 'a boon' to our economy." But in fact, Clinton never used the word "boon" to describe the effects of the trade agreement on the U.S. economy, and it's not clear she ever said anything like that. ...


On the other hand, Clinton biographer Sally Bedell Smith says Clinton privately argued against NAFTA inside the White House and was "not very much in favor of free trade."
...

Earlier, she was criticized by pro-NAFTA forces for a lack of support. In 1993 pro-NAFTA executive Gary R. Edson of Ameritech Corp. complained publicly of a "deafening" silence from Hillary Clinton during the fight to gain Congressional approval... And about the same time, a National Journal reporter quoted pro-NAFTA lobbyists as complaining that Hillary was undermining efforts to get the trade pact approved out of fear that pushing for it would alienate supporters of the administration's health care proposal. The headline: "If NAFTA's Bogging Down, Is Hillary to Blame?"

We take no position here on whether NAFTA is a boon to the economy or a detriment, and note only that there are plenty of arguments on both sides. We do judge that the Obama campaign is wrong to quote Clinton as using words she never uttered, and it has produced little evidence that she ever had strong praise of any sort for NAFTA's economic benefits.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_mailings_false.html