I have to admit watching another IWR voter go down in flames is very gratifying

[Egnever]

Watching the folks that voted for this horror get taken out one by one is making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.

[Qutzupalotl]

1. McCain's next!

:toast:

[Egnever]

2. That one will be particularly pleasant!

[Window]

107. ..

[niceypoo]

125. Did you also cheer when Kerry went down in flames?

Betting you did...

[Skip Intro]

3. Why is Obama campaigning with one of the IWR voters for horror?

[Egnever]

6. No clue

[Skip Intro]

9. Does it bother you?

[Egnever]

12. A little

but since he wont be the one getting the nod it doesnt mean that much.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

47. Doesn't it bother you that Hillary and Bill had to know about PNAC...

...and their plan for world domination through aggression? It was PNAC's plan to take us into Iraq and Iran prior to 9-11. Hillary and Bill advised our senate to vote yes to the IWR. They should have known better and they should be held accountable. They should not be moving back into the White House.

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

21. Kerry already went down in flames though.

[Egnever]

24. Yup and it was his vote that did him in

[Skip Intro]

34. It was not his vote that did him in.

[Egnever]

49. How do you know?

[Clintonista2]

95. It was his incompetence on the campaign trail

[ProSense]

98. Kerry won the primary, and a Hillary supporter is citing his incompetence on the campaign trail.

Bizarre!

[Clintonista2]

103. As Obama will soon learn...

Being a Democratic candidate in a Democratic primary is much different than running in a general election.

[ProSense]

110. Conceding? n/t

[democrattotheend]

138. Yes it was

I remember saying to my grandfather the day the resolution passed in 2002 "John Kerry just gave up his chance to be president".

Five years later, I still believe I was right. If he had voted against it, he would have had a lot more credibility in attacking Bush when things started going downhill in Iraq.

He still would have had to deal with the swiftboaters, but I think if he hadn't had to deal with the flip-flop label on Iraq, he might have won.

[oasis]

23. Umm Hmmm. Good question.

[jlake]

4. Wow. What a stupid post. Some of our greatest senators were duped by Bush - and you blame them.

[Egnever]

5. Every last one of them

Cant wait till they are all gone

[jlake]

7. Please ask Obama to drop Kerry from the campaign trail if you honestly believe that.

[tabasco]

29. Kerry admitted his mistake.

Kerry showed the moral courage to admit a mistake.

Clinton apparently lacks the courage to do the same.

[Cha]

118. Kerry did a turn on the IWR and

I totally forgive him. I wasn't so forgiving in 2004 when I was a Deaniac.

[Skip Intro]

8. Guess it's ok for Kerry to campaign for Obama until he gets flushed out too?

[Johnny__Motown]

10. This post is over the top, I don't see punishing people who voted wrong, JUST DON'T REWARD THEM

This should have linked to the original post sorry,

Nothing against your post, it is the person who wants to see all IRW voters go down in flames.


I rushed it, sorry my bad

[Egnever]

18. Thats ok ill reply to you here

I dissagree Completely they need to be romoved from positions of power forever. They proved with that vote that they cared more about getting elected than the toll in lives that vote would take. They have blood on thier hands every last one of them and when the last one is out of office I will do a little dance.

[Mooney]

41. I agree with this n/t

[Egnever]

14. Sure

I have to admit its pretty satifying to watch kerry sit there as Obama tells everyone how stupid his vote was.

[Skip Intro]

36. He's the whipping boy?

[Egnever]

52. I dont know if I would go that far

But I still like watching him sit there while Obama talks about how wrong that vote was.

[ProSense]

59. Yeah, but I don't think that really affects Kerry. He has defended Obama's position and

Obama address the IWR at the 2004 convention. Kerry knew his position when he invited him to speak there.

[Egnever]

71. Yea I think Kerry already regreted that vote by that time

[Metric System]

83. Is this the same Obama who said back in 2004 that he wasn't sure how he'd vote if he were in the

Senate?

[Egnever]

104. You mean the guy who stuck up for our nominee?

Yea that would be him. Who knew dems would later try to crucify him for it in defense of a warmonger.

[JI7]

17. considering Hillary supporters hate Kerry it's funny seeing

you all come up with "but Kerry did it too" anytime Hillary is criticized on something.

[Skip Intro]

28. Don't hate Kerry, but if Hillary is to be the butcheress of Baghdad, Kerry must be the butcher.

Can't have it both ways.

[JI7]

35. egnever was a Kerry basher during 2004 Primaries

so i guess he is kind of consistent. but it is funny seeing a lot of others who continually bashed Kerry for IWR now supporting Hillary.

[Skip Intro]

39. Its funny seeing Obama supporters slam Hillary for the same vote Kerry cast, while Kerry shills

for Obama.

[JI7]

42. so Hillary shouldn't criticize people for NAFTA with Bill campaigning for her

[Skip Intro]

51. Not the same

Obama supporters here are blaming her for the deaths and destruction in Iraq at the US' hands. Everyone knows this was bush's war, but Obama supporters seem driven to paint her with the blood of the slain. All I say is, if that's true, then it must be true of Kerry as well. Yet Obama slams Hillary for voting wrongly (the same way Kerry voted) as one of his main lines of attack against her. With Kerry by his side. I mean, can we talk hypocrisy? But the point being, if Hillary's vote made her at best a bad decision-maker, and at worst, a warmonger, then Kerry's vote did the same to him. Why the hell would a proponent of real change want a bad decision-maker/warmonger on stage with him? What change is he really talking about, at that point?

[Egnever]

55. I am not Obama

Nor are any of his supporters. And I have been slaming Kerry as well for that vote for years.

[Skip Intro]

57. Just saying it doesn't mesh with Obama's message, such that it is.

It's late - good night.

[JI7]

56. Kerry was attacked in the same way and even more and worse

even AFTER 2004.

and many of those people who did that are now supporting Hillary.

[Skip Intro]

58. And evidently ,there's a lot of love for him on the Obama side.

Kinda makes the whole warmonger label a little tricky to use, doesn't it?

[JI7]

64. this is one poster, it's not being used by that many

not nearly as it was used against Kerry and those same people now supporting Hillary.

and Obama certainly isn't doing it. he might have criticized Hillary for the vote at times, but it was Edwards who actually used it much more against Hillary and how she hasn't apologized. and they never accused her of murder and whatever else.

and no Dem will use it against McCain.

[Egnever]

48. Yup I was a Deaniac

I guess I am into the cult thing.

[blm]

115. You ARE wrong about this, because you don't show any STANDARD other than

the vote for that particular resolution - Dean was fine with Biden-Lugar which would have still had us in Iraq, would THAT have made him unworthy of your support? No.

Furthermore - Kerry IS different from other IWR voters in that he stood against Bush's DECISION to use force when the weapon inspections were working to prove force was not needed. And he did so BEFORE the invasion, during, and after.



I think your OP is really wrong in the spirit it has been written. It is also wrong in that it is extremely unlikely that ANY Dem nominee would have won if they were the pure antiwar vote you seem to envision. (Besides, had the DNC secured the election process after 2000s theft, Kerry would be in the WH today)....but...Why do you THINK Dean was FOR the Biden-Lugar version of IWR? Why do you THINK Obama was careful to show support for military budgets? ANYONE running for the WH is careful to show SOME willingness to run with the hawks - even Kucinich was supportive of Clinton's 1998 resolution to use force in Iraq.

There is no such thing as a pure antiwar vote. And certainly not any pure antiwar vote that could ascend into the presidency USING antiwar purity, especially in 2004.

You seem to think that all the bad news about Bush's deceits, Katrina, and Iraq civil war was all known by the public in the 2004 election. Had any of those matters gone well for Bush, there would be no way Obama would even be running today, because the country wouldn't be 'there' yet.


Context, Eg....Context matters.

[Egnever]

119. Meh BLM you and I went rounds on this allready

last time arround. I know you are a huge Kerry fan and I understand your reasoning for it.

You are well aware of the reasoning behind Deans support for Biden Lugar and his support even for that was weak at best. Kerry's actions since his failed run for potus has put him in a much more favorable light with me but it doesnt make his vote right. No matter how you spin it it was the wrong vote.

Clearly the electorate took its sweet time waking up to the fact that bush was a criminal incompetant. That doesnt mean I should excuse anyone who voted for the IWR it was the worst vote possibly in our history in terms of the damage it has allowed.

[blm]

120. IF it was the REASON Iraq was invaded I would agree - but we know it wasn't.

And had Biden-Lugar passed, then what? Had IWR been written in a way that everyone agreed, you think Bush still wouldn't have violated it the same way he went against this IWR?

The Downing Street Memos proved they would've done whatever they needed.

[Egnever]

126. Theres no question Bush was bound and determined to go to Iraq

from the day Saddam went after his daddy. That doesn't mean anyone should have just laid down for it and that vote that day was laying down. You knew bush was bound and determined to go there as well as I did. Why vote for that piece of shit? They should have stood in his way at every opportunity.

[blm]

139. Except there was the last Dem president saying that Bush was right based on what HE KNEW

from his time as president. Clinton was telling them the same thing and urging those votes based on information he accessed. There was a point to supporting the resolution based on that BUT once inspectors were in and reporting back ALL PAST INTEL should have been seen as INOPERABLE and the only intel that mattered was the reports made on the ground from the weapon inspections.

THAT is the cut off point to support or not support Bush's decisions.

Because Rove pushed the IWR = YES WAR storyline, the ACTUAL truth about what was occurring and SHOULD have been debated publically never had its full airing.

[JeffR]

11. What a stupid response. These 23 senators voted nay. Why?

Why were they not duped?

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

[ingac70]

16. Because common sense isn't so common. n/t.

[JeffR]

19. True

but it seems there was a lot more common sense at the time concentrated in one of our two candidates rather than the other. Oh, but she was DUPED! OH, MY!!

[Egnever]

22. Every last one of them have my eternal support.

It was a hard vote to make at the time but they stood up for what is right. They are heroes in my eyes.

[ProSense]

26. You're being ridiculous!

People could turn around and claim some one isn't fit for office who voted for Cheney's energy plan or against Kerry-Feingold or any other single bill. The fact is Hillary's trouble stem more from her position on Iraq that the actual vote for the resolution.

Some of those very same people who voted against the IWR voted for the torture amendment, should they be driven out of office too?

[Egnever]

46. What torture amendment are you talking about?

[ProSense]

53. The 2006 bill that scrapped habeas corpus. The reason waterboarding is an issue. n/t

[Egnever]

67. Well how gratifying to find out there was only one that defected

Imagine that the same people showed good judgement there as well. Nice work Senators! Guess you were full of it on that one Prosense. But thanks for making me look into it.


http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259#position

NAYs ---34
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Chafee (R-RI)
Clinton (D-NY)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)

[ProSense]

86. No, I wasn't one IWR and nine other Democrats voted for it. I'm asking

are they also to be driven out of the Senate?

[Egnever]

90. yes

and yes you were wrong you were arguing that I was foolish for respecting those senators with an argument that they voted the wrong way on the torture amendment. Only one stabenow from the original 23 voted for the torture amendment.

And you were also wrong about the telecommunication bill as well. Time after time its the same senators standing up and doing the right thing. So yes you're absolutely wrong.

[ProSense]

97. No, I was arguing about basing a person career on a single vote, they'd all be kicked out.

Last year, some were advocating the removal of the entire House because of a domestic terrorism act, then there was the Christmas vote.

Criticism and pressure, patterns matter, but basing a career on a single vote makes no sense!

[Egnever]

99. It was a pretty big vote

Quite possibly the most important vote they will ever make. And your arguments examples proved to hold no water.

But yes one vote doesnt a career make except maybe that one.

[ProSense]

100. You know, people look at this war and see Bush, it's why he has a 19% approval

Every Democrat enjoys a significantly higher approval rating than Bush, some nearing 70%. So I wouldn't lose sleep over this. It's Bush's war.

Hillary's mistake is her arrogance and waffling.

[Egnever]

101. Trust me I am sleeping much better watching her implode.

:toast:

[JeffR]

61. Yes, maybe they should.

But as for the IWR, which was the topic at hand, those who added their Democratic "ayes" to this shit paid a price with a some of their constituents. As they should have.

[ProSense]

65. Who? It seems to me most voter understood the IWR and are more critical of

those refuse to own up to the mistake of trusting Bush (which is all that was) and are inconsistent in there efforts to end the war.

[Egnever]

68. You were wrong

only one Stabenow voted for that garbage the rest stayed on the right side of that fence and we even gained some.

[ProSense]

74. No, you're wrong, check again. Then check telecom immunity for spying

the list goes on and on.

[Egnever]

77. i linked it above but ill do it again here

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259#position

Sorry man but your dead wrong on this one.

[Egnever]

79. The immunity thing is a little more grey area

I can understand voting for that. I don't agree with it but I can see an argument for it.

[Egnever]

88. And you are wrong on that one as well

only 2 of the original senators that voted against the IWR voted against stripping imunity.

NAYs ---29
Akaka (D-HI)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Wyden (D-OR)

[JeffR]

70. Whoo? All of them.

when the time is right and their jettisoning doesn't jeopardize our majorities.

Most voters, I'm guessing, didn't understand the IWR then or now. Obviously a lot of Dem senators didn't and don't, as well.

[Egnever]

75. He was wrong

Only one voted for it, Stabenow. All the rest voted against and showed their good judgement yet again.

[ProSense]

78. The IWR is pretty clear, it's Bush whoacks moral clarity. He didn't have to launch the war, and

he wasn't authorized to do it by falsifying the evidence. Remember he falsified the evidence after the vote, including the 16 words in his SOTU.

[JeffR]

82. I remember every painful second of this whole crime against humanity

And I remember most of our Democratic reps in Congress sitting on their hands. If not joining in the predictable jingoist rhetoric. I remember lots, thanks.

[ProSense]

85. So do I. All the people who voted against the IWR emphasized that Saddam was acquiring WMD. They all

voted for one or another of the resolutions, which were pretty much all the same.

[JeffR]

89. Yes, that's just how it all went down.

Right.

Doesn't matter a good goddamn, anyway.

One candidate apologized for his IWR vote. He eventually dropped out. Some couldn't forgive his crap vote despite the apology; some could.

One of the remaining two candidates tends to change the subject when her IWR vote is brought up. No apology, no wisdom of hindsight. Why would that be?

[ProSense]

92. You answered your own question in your last point. n/t

[JeffR]

94. If that's the asnwer to my question, at least it explains why I don't support her

so that's fine, then.

[JeffR]

27. I agree

and I'm sick of this "we were duped" jive.

[Zhade]

15. I wasn't duped. If *they* were, they're unfit for office.

NT!

[MADem]

20. Sayonara John Forbes Kerry, then! I agree with your assessment of the quality of the post! nt

[JI7]

25. maybe Hillary should drop Bill Clinton since he supported DOMA, NAFTA

which she claims to be against now.

that's how stupid that argument is.

[tabasco]

33. Kerry had the moral courage to admit his mistake.

Hillary didn't.

[Adelante]

109. Kerry opposed the occupation all along

I don't have a lot of forgiveness over the IWR vote, but Kerry outright opposed the occupation and the invasion before it happened, by January 2003, I believe it was. That's much more important to me than admitting a mistake or being sorry. They couldn't be sorry enough for me, none of them.

[jasmine621]

127. Show me how they differ. In 2004 they sounded a lot alike

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/09/kerry.iraq/index.html

[ProSense]

50. Kerry went on to win the nomination in 2004 despite his vote. It isn't looking good for Hillary, and

the difference is that Kerry never let up on his criticism of Bush and his efforts to try to end the war.

[MADem]

113. Yeahhhhh....and how did THAT work out for him, hmmmmm?

I never heard Kerry supporters attacking Dean supporters with "personal invective." That's all your bunch have, though.


You keep counting those chickens before they're hatched, now. You keep shitting on lifelong Democrats here, and "motivating" them to vote in November. But don't be shocked if some of them are so sick of the childish, vicious bullshit "acolytes" like you are putting out that they move leftward to that idiot-assclown Nader.

Who has seen the OPENING your crew of jerks has so eagerly provided, and has taken it.

That's a real SHARP tactic you're employing there, "Pro" Sense. Way to get out the vote!!! The "Anybody But Obama" vote, that is.

Of course, that just might be your nefarious plan, eh? Nothing would surprise me at this point.

:rofl:

[psquare]

31. "Duped"??? Come on, it was POLITICS, that's why they voted with him. They

figured it would make them look strong on defense, and maybe there would be a chance to stop him later on before the shooting started.

Meanwhile, MILLIONS of Americans (including you, I'll bet) absolutely KNEW what Bush would do. Pay lip service to diplomacy and the inspectors, ratchet up the rhetoric, "catapult the propaganda" and start an illegal war against a nation that had done nothing to us, nor was planning anything to do against us.

It's the exact same thing that got Congress to pass the "Protect America Act" a few months ago. Bring in some technocrats to describe in hushed tones how vital unauthorized wiretapping is, and viola, they buckle under.

Kerry and Clinton both were looking to cover themselves on the political front, not because of some deep abiding core value about the use of force without provocation. People who vote on principle voted NO. Clinton, on her actual "Day One", voted for war, undoubtedly thinking she was setting herself up for a run in 2004 or 2008.

[JimGinPA]

32. They Weren't Really Duped, They Were Afraid To Seem Weak..

Or "unpatriotic" and didn't want to go against the shrub because they were convinced it WOULD be a "cakewalk". They didn't want to be on the wrong side politically.

[Forkboy]

40. And you have nailed it. It was political calculation on her part.

She thought the war would be over in time for the election and she'd have a nice, shiny issue to run on.

A million dead later.......

[ProSense]

43. Some elected officials may vote in calculating ways, but it's ridiculous to say that

everyone did so. From the day of the vote until the day Bush arrogantly launched the war, Kerry was speaking out against it. He gave this speech at Georgetown University on Thursday, January 23, 2003:

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration. I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead. Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

<...>

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

How was this supposed to help him not look "weak"? He hadn't even launched his presidential campaign yet, the war was two month away and he was warning Bush not to go to war.

Kerry, unlike Hillary, has never wavered in calling out Bush on his immoral war, and he led the effort to set a deadline for withdrawal.

Hillary Clinton's problem has been not only her silence, but also her inability to explain her position with clarity and consistency.

Also, where was Hillary when Bill was "repeatedly" defending "Bush against the left on Iraq"?

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

link

In the middle of the 2004 campaign to make Bush a one-term president (select) for his illegal invasion, Bill Clinton was defending him.

[JimGinPA]

72. I Voted For Him, Volunteered For The Party & Donated To Kerry's Campaign...

But his vote to authorize was wrong. He apologized, as have many others, but Hillary won't. I can't ignore that.

[ProSense]

81. Not arguing with you on that! n/t

[Forkboy]

38. Yes, I do.

Idiots to the last manjack of them.

[Voice for Peace]

105. don't you think they had a responsibility to be better informed before that vote?

plenty of people were skeptical, plenty of people were looking at information
other than what bush was offering, and saying 'no'

I can't see any excuse for people voting for the IWR, it shows a serious lack
of judgement.

[dysfunctional press]

122. i blame them 100%. there were PLENTY of ordinary citizens who knew exactly what was going on.

the traitorous senators should have known better too.

[Recursion]

123. Then they're that much dumber than us?

I don't buy it. They aren't idiots.

They knew damn well what they were doing, and we knew what they were doing too.

Pretending otherwise is kind of pathetic.

[Mooney]

128. Anybody who took Bush at his word

is a fucking idiot.

[Zhade]

13. It's a start.

A late, never-as-good-as-impeaching-criminals start, but one nonetheless.

[Skip Intro]

30. Obama said had he been privy to the intel at the time, he didn't know how he would have voted.

Yet he doesn't hesistate to hit Hillary with her vote over and over again.

[DUyellow]

45. you have nothing to show that he would have voted for it.

[Skip Intro]

54. except that he said he didn't know how he would have voted

hello?

[DUyellow]

60. read the next paragraph of that transcript. I guess he could have back stabbed the democratic nom...

you are full of it. Context never matters.

[Barack_America]

63. Their girl was more than willing to stab Kerry in the back...

Hey wait, SHE DID!

They don't really understand this "Democrats looking after Democrats" or "For the good of the party" stuff.

[Skip Intro]

66. Doesn't erase what he said prior. Just doesn't.

[jackson_dem]

69. So why did he say the same thing in 2006?

The "protecting the ticket" excuse doesn't fly in light of that.

[DUyellow]

102. and what did he say in 2006?

[Egnever]

80. Course not

You know he was giving cover to Kerry and you also know that he said from where he was sitting the case hadnt been made.

[FlyingSquirrel]

37. I do believe that vote is the single thing that has hurt her more than anything.

Except perhaps the pervasive sense that her nomination would turn out the Repugs in droves to vote against her in the GE.

[Egnever]

91. As well it should !

I agree the feeling of pukes coming out in droves has also hurt her, also as it should.

[PassingFair]

44. Lieberman and lots of puglicans have been scrubbed since then.

Feet to the FIRE!

[Aviation Pro]

62. Too bad Senator Obama didn't get a chance to cast a vote....

...on IWR, but let's not let facts get in the way now.

[jackson_dem]

73. Yup but he did vote on Kerry-Feingold and voted against it...

[lligrd]

76. The IWR Is My Main Issue Too

Can't really hope they all go down in flames until we get decent replacements though. But I am sure happy when I don't have to vote for one.

[Egnever]

84. Well decent replacements would be good

I certainly wouldnt want to replace them with Republicans but the day the l;ast one is gone I will do a little jig.

[lligrd]

87. I'll Start Practicing My Jigging

so I can join you.

[progressive_realist]

93. I'll second that

I never paid any attention to Obama until he was the only one of the three remaining candidates who had not voted for the IWR. Obama wouldn't even be in this race if Senator Clinton had done the right thing. I hope that haunts her until her dying day. I'm just glad she is going down in flames before the GE.

And yes, McCain is next. :woohoo:

[Egnever]

96. Till her dying day!

Absolutely!

[MadHound]

106. It is, after all, about accountability.

Many, many folks both here and in the real world, vowed to hold those who voted for the IWR accountable for their actions. Yet ironically many of those same people are the most vociferous defenders of Clinton now, even though she has failed to apologize for the IWR or acknowledged that her vote was in error.

Yet many, many more folks are indeed holding her accountable, and her campaign and her supporters simply can't get around that fact. It is one of the big reasons that her campaign was doomed, in part due to people like me. I'm originally a Kucinich supporters, one of the very few who has been and continues to be right on the IWR(and so many more issues)all the time. After he dropped out, and it was down to Obama and two candidates who voted for the IWR, well, it became a simple choice then.

Hopefully Hillary learns her lesson on this one. If not:shrug:

[workinclasszero]

108. It is very satisfying, isn't it

Plus Hillary is a free traitor-DLC shill to boot so its a two-fer!:)

[bigtree]

111. the last one to flame out brought us Bush back

you must have been ecstatic.

[ecdab]

112. While I'm certainly not a Hillary hater

I must say that the IWR was a big, BIG, deal to me - and seeing her getting rejected as the Presidential nominee for the party in favor of a person that didn't vote incorrectly on IWR does make me smile.

I do like to keep the IWR in some sort of context - there were a lot of good people that showed very, VERY poor judgment regarding the IWR, Hillary was just one of many. But I do think it should absolutely be counted as a massive strike against her when considering who should lead the Democratic Party forward. I think holding her accountable for a mistake as large as the IWR will also serve as a long lasting reminder to some Senators when they cast votes in the future - it lets them know that at least some of us will not forget all of their incompetence.

[Egnever]

114. Nicely said

I hope as well that it sends a very clear message to all of our congress critters.

[ecdab]

116. We live in an era where political accountability has become

something less than an after-thought. If "we the people" don't hold elected officials accountable during election cycles - there will be no accountability at all.

I, for one, am more than sick of that lack of accountability in our government. I am very pleased to see some measure of accountability being measured out. I hope to see much more in the future.

Governments really should have some measure of respect for the people they serve. But when the people do not hold their political servants accountable the rolls quickly reverse and the servant becomes the master. We have allowed ourselves to fall into the roll of servants for far too long. Something tells me that holding Hillary to account isn't the beginning of the end for our servitude - but, perhaps, it's the beginning of the beginning.

[Cha]

117. Karma's a Bitch that takes

a while sometimes.

[mtnsnake]

121. I'll bet you were jumping for fucking joy when Kerry got robbed in 2004, too, then

...judging from all your vitriolic posts towards the Clintons and from the hatred you probably have deep inside towards many of our other finest Democrats just like them.

Kerry voted for the IWR and had a war theme for his platform, to boot, so cry us a fucking river about that one, too.

[Marrah_G]

124. What a disgusting piece of Flamebait-

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. What a disgusting piece of legislation.

[Jacobin]

131. More than 100 congresscritters voted against it.

She didn't even need to show any courage or originality. She just had to have shown good judgment.

[Jacobin]

130. Me too

I remember on DU faxing and calling congresscritters before the IWR vote. Kerry and Clinton were extremely disappointing in the canned responses they sent back about Saddam and his evil weapons.

I still think that anyone who voted to give Bush the power to go to war does not have good judgment and should not be president.

[ellisonz]

132. This also makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

:o

[AtomicKitten]

133. It is satisfying to finally be able to weigh in on what we thought of the IWR.

Gobama!

[Firespirit]

134. I don't care if this gets deleted or gets me tombstoned.

FUCK YOU AND ALL WHO THINK LIKE YOU.

I don't support Hillary and never did, but the IWR had nothing to do with it.

You were gratified by Kerry "going down in flames" huh? Gratified when hundreds died in Iraq and New Orleans who would be alive today if Kerry had become president? Gratified when our Supreme Court was taken over by the fundies? When untold thousands died for lack of healthcare, slipped into poverty in this recession?

All because of the FUCKING IWR VOTE?

Go to hell.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[politicasista]

135. Nice rant!

:applause:


And I am an Obama supporter and threads like these do not help his cause.



On edit: I like reading your comments so I hope you won't get tombstoned.

[Firespirit]

136. Thanks

This mentality outrages me like nothing else does. Ordinarily I attempt to control my temper and language on DU. I doubt I'll disappear.

I lost a friend in the Katrina cleanup, because she sustained an injury (broken ankles) and needed a blood thinning agent, but it wasn't standard treatment and her insurance wouldn't cover it. A fragment of tissue escaped the fracture and went to her heart, stopping it. She died completely needlessly and I am convinced this would not have happened if Bush hadn't taken 2004 -- she was a former government employee, a retired teacher, and in the south they are not taken care of at all.

I would love for these self-righteous IWR fanatics to tell me to my face that that vote is more important than anything that happened since January 2005. Bravado is easy when you're safe behind a computer monitor.

[politicasista]

137. I am so sorry..

that happened. Katrina is still very sad two and half years later.


I haven't engaged in the primary wars threads beacuse of vile, vitriolic nature, but I do share your feelings about the IWR fanatics and blogosphere as a whole.


Hope everything goes well for you down there. :hi: :grouphug:

[Individualist]

140. Especially gratifying when that IWR voter is also a DLC member.

nt