When, and more importantly, why did Democrats begin to hate the Clintons

[jhrobbins]

I understand why Republicans and right wiongers do, it just escaps me the level of ire against them. I didn't support Hillary, but I don't hate her like so many seem to.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the claim that Hillary 'voted for' the Iraq war - she voted for the administration to have to option to go to war (thinking, no doubt, that they might have used some discretion and forethought and gone in as a last resort - just like so many Democrats did. The support for this was was very high in the beginning so thre had to be a lot of Democrats on the band wagon early on - some in here I suspect)

[Yael]

1. I don't hate them, but they lost my trust with Travelgate

it all went down hill from there.

That was too nasty and underhanded for my taste (not to mention completely unnecessary).

[SoCalDem]

27. It's COMMON practice to replace people with your OWN people

especially people who make travel arrangements and know where everyone's staying, how they travel etc. Would YOU want people you did not have complete trust in, making YOUR travel arrangements, and then calling someone on the sly to let them in on the advance details?

People who were non-political civil service workers, could have been simply re-assigned, and probably many were..but of course the right wing media made a mountain out of a molehill..

It's the NORM for people hired on and working for the previous admin, to submit their resignation/request for reassignment when the new crew arrives.. Some are kept on..others have their resignations accepted, and they move on to other jobs in government or with companies that have connections to their former bosses..

That's the way it WORKS in politics..

The Clintons did not invent a "new way"..

[Yael]

33. Billy Dale had run that office since Jack Kennedy hired him in 1960

I would have no problem with the Clintons replacing that team with their cronies -- but they didn't do that. They went scorched earth and created *drama* and *controversy* so that they could justify firing a 38 year employee with a stellar track record who was immensely popular with the press corps.

They thought they were covering their asses. He ended up losing his home and retirement funds in a defense that found him innocent of the charges.

It didn't have to be that way.

[Big Blue Marble]

34. You are saying that Billy Dale lost his home and his retirement.

How did that happen? Was it legal expenses? That is terrible.

[Yael]

52. Yes -- because he was framed on trumped up, non existant charges

because the Clintons wanted to kick start their friend's new travel business but didn't want the hard questions from the press about why they were firing a man who worked for every administration from Kennedy to Clinton with honor.

They had every right to let him (and his team go) as that is within their call as the administration. They chose to play dirty about it when it was totally unnecessary and smear a good man rather than take the probing questions about it.

It was sick.

[Jawja]

36. If only they had replaced

Linda Tripp..... *sigh*

[Penndems]

35. Travelgate started under Bush 41

They knew exactly what was going on with Billy Dale and his gang of thieves. Instead of ordering an investigation to clean up that mess, they chose to look the other way and allow the thievery to continue unabated.

When the Clinton Administration came in, they were tipped off to what was going on in the Travel Office by the permanent White House support staff (among others), and justice was finally meted out.

Billy Dale didn't whine and bitch because he was wronged. He whined and bitched because he got caught.









on edit: typo correction

[Yael]

55. Which is why he was exhonorated?

Sorry -- I know too much about it.

It wouldn't have been infamously called "Travelgate" if it were vetted and the Clinton's found clean. It was vetted and they were found dirty.

[dsc]

73. he was found not guilty

which is quite different from exhoneration. It came out at trial that Mr. Dale was in the habit of taking money from the travel budget and using it for his own purposes. The jury evidently bought the story that the money had been replaced after it was so used but Clinton would have been irresponsible not to have investigated and removed Mr. Dale.

[Penndems]

75. The Clintons weren't found "dirty", Yael

Love your DU username, BTW.

I worked in the White House during that time period. He was hoping the Clintons and the political appointees would mind their knitting and that he could continue pocketing thousands of dollars.

Would you prefer that Dale and and his colleagues in the Travel Office kept on stealing taxpayer money? Or perhaps you'd preferred that Bush 41 had been reelected, so ole Billy could keep his job? Good grief!

In the six years I've been posting on DU, I have never seen so much hatred and vitriol spewed against the Clintons as I've seen the past few months. It's just absolutely unbelievable.

To quote my right-wing younger brother: "We're laughing our asses off."

[mudesi]

2. She DID vote for the war

And anything she or you say about it is not an explanation: It is an excuse.

[SoFlaJet]

3. we will never "hate" the Clintons

as we ALL here-every single one of us here was proud of and DEFENDED them for years. She really disappointed THIS democrat when she came out and criticized John Kerry right after McCain for the joke about Bush...and she talks about "democrats should NEVER do that to other democrats" the other day right? GRRRRRRR

[DJ13]

4. The Party lost a lot of seats when Bill was President

Lost Congress, lost the lead in state governors, lost its importance as a real alternative to the GOP because Bill was pushing and passing more GOP bills than Democratic bills in his two terms.

The Clintons didnt do the Party any favors.

[StClone]

28. i think that was not Bill's fault

Completely but ignorance and AM hate radio's influence.

[dansolo]

40. He signed the Telecommunications Act

He helped out the AM hate radio industry.

[StClone]

51. yes he did.

[maseman]

78. I don't hate

I do dislike the CLintons.

1. NAFTA
2. The Telecom Act which has caused all of these problems with Clear Channel, etc.
3. The blowjob (Come on Bill an intern in the Oval Office)
4. Getting caught and lying about the blowjob
5. The racial overtones by Bill during this primary against Obama
6. Hillary's vote for the war in Iraq
7. Her monotone delivery that comes across so phony to me. Always has.

[VotesForWomen]

65. so he should have leaned further right to avoid this? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. The war on Iraq.

And the whole censorship of videogames thing struck me as real Liebermanesque.

[KittyWampus]

6. When they used their position to amass power for themselves rather than build up the party

and help Democrats in Red states win.

When they installed Terry McAuliffe in the DNC and he ignored Election Theft by the GOP and spent millions updating the Democratic databank for the sole purpose of making sure the Clinton machine could control which Dems got elected and where they could run.

And it's not hate. It's just the ambivalence of those who are tired of the narrow, outdated mindset the Clintons bring to the table.

[Ikonoklast]

58. Most cogent argument made to date

This is it exactly. The Clinton apologists ignore these facts, and moreover want to repeat them.

The Clintons had no problem consolidating power unto themselves at the expense of the party, and the nation. They must be stopped, or the party will split.

Thank God for Gov. Dean and the fifty-state strategy.

Fight the pukes for every vote, in every state, for every office.

Concede NOTHING.

[Iris]

7. I'm trying to understand this as well.

And good point about the Iraq vote. People seem to forget what things were like in this country when that vote occurred.

[OhioBlue]

8. I don't hate the Clintons

but they have disappointed me.

[NastyRiffraff]

9. Democrats tend to be hyper-critical of their candidates & elected officials

In some cases, it's justified. But there are people who a) expect the politician to be perfect, swiftly put through his or her agenda, and are betrayed when he or she is neither perfect or quick enough. b) One issue people; THEIR issue. If that's not addressed RIGHT NOW, BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, they're angry.

In the case of the Clintons, there was a lot I didn't like about Bill's presidency, but a lot more I did. Some people can't strike that balance, and look at the overall picture rather than pick one thing and call his entire administration evil.

Honestly, on these boards I've seen more anger at the Clintons than I've seen for ANY Republican, except maybe for Bush/Cheney.

[joeybee12]

10. Hmm..finally got the White House back after 12 years...how quickly

people forget...right now the haters are trying their hardest to justify their irrational hate, like it was Bill's fault the Dems in congress were corrupt and inept and so we took a dive in 1994.

[Big Blue Marble]

17. The congressional corruption did hurt.

But the badly managed health care debacle was the last nail in the coffin. It cost many seats in
conservative areas where the Dems were hanging on through the Reagan Bush years.

That and the gays in the military thing were the tipping point that took the party down.
Bill and Hill never spent any of their political capital to regain the Congress either.

When they left the party was decimated. It has just started to recover under Mr. Dean.

[Skittles]

when Obama gained a halo nt

[Big Blue Marble]

19. No many turned to Obama because

they did not want another Clinton Presidency. 8 years were enough.

[lisa58]

26. You're right...

...Clinton is my last choice - if she gets the nomination I'll vote for her, but it's just not the way I want to see the country go.

[Jawja]

43. We have big challenges ahead of

and some immediate problems to solve and it appears that the two-party system is so deeply entrenched in power, we don't have many choices in leadership to handle these issues. So the idea that the process is appearing to ONLY BE OPEN to certain families, like the Bushes and Clintons, is scary and this trend needs to be reversed.

Yes, I don't want Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton.

[lisa58]

45. ditto

[Big Blue Marble]

46. I agree with you so much.

It is time for new people in politics. We need fresh ideas to solve these stale problems. And we need those ideas urgently.

[Skittles]

49. that's not what the question was

it's not WHY they turned to Obama but why they started HATING the Clintons - hatred on par with the WORST OF THE FREEPERS

[bicentennial_baby]

56. Not from me!

I don't hate them, I dislike some of her postions and her IWR vote, and Kyl-Lieberman, some of her tactics, etc. No hate, just prefer the alternative...Hell, I just wish DK was still in it, I'd be voting for him, yes INDEED! :D

[Skittles]

57. I would vote for DK too

I voted for him last time - yes INDEED! :D

[bicentennial_baby]

60. Me TOO!!

:pals:

[Big Blue Marble]

61. Your assumption is wrong.

Most of us who dislike the Clintons are not on par with freepy irrationality.
We do not hate them as people. Far from it, I dare say most of us including me voted for Bill twice.

The Clintons failed us. We dislike their politics and we dislike their narcissism.

Many did turn to Obama for these reasons. We did not want more of the same. We
are done with that aspect of our lives and are ready for change.

[k8conant]

11. When did Hillary stop liking the war? about 2 months ago?

BTW, I've only voted for a Republican for president once. That was in 1996. I didn't see that Bill Clinton was all that great. I did support him afterwards. There's just something inauthentic about those folks.


I did vote Democratic in 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 2000, and 2004. I also campaigned for Eugene McCarthy in 1968 but I was only 19 and couldn't vote yet.

[Recursion]

12. I don't hate them. They both lost my trust in the 1990's

There wasn't a single moment; it was more a gradual wearing down.

[NC_Nurse]

13. I don't hate the Clintons. I worked for Bill in 1992 and I was pretty

disappointed with him - long before the whole BJ thing came along. That didn't help me
like him anymore though. It was a stupid move for someone who KNEW the RW was out to get him.

I still think he was an okay President, an Dubya makes him look like a saint!

[JackORoses]

14. when they started acting just like Republicans just for another shot at the Big Time

[Cha]

66. And that was back in October,

2002 for me.

[COFoothills]

15. Don't hate them...never will...

...but I do think they need a dose of humility and they need to know when the time is right to step aside for the betterment of the whole.

I worked on Bill's campaign in 92 and really believed in him. Still do. But that was 16 years ago and times change.

What was new is now old and the people have spoken and said clearly that 'new' is what they want right now. Clinton's need to accept that and do everything in their power to help make it happen for us. Ultimately I think they will.

[lisa58]

16. For me....

...and I wouldn't call it hate - more like disgust - was when I met Hillary when she was running for her second term in the Senate and I really, really, really, really wanted to like her and just didn't. She did not seem to trust anyone, she was very "programmed", played it very safe and seemed to just go through the motions of what you do when you're going to someone's home for a fundraiser. I didn't connect with her at all and (as I said above) really thought I would and really wanted to.

Bill turned me off while campaigning in New Hampshire and then I just thought the two of them were completely selfish. Not that they don't want to help the "little guy" I believe they do. I just feel like they think they are "entitled" (a little bush-like).

Finally, someone (and if I could remember who I would say) explained that the Clintons were terrible for the democratic party. They lost the house and senate and did nothing to improve the party, which goes back to it being all about them.

I breaks my heart - but I used to defend them to anyone, anytime and I feel they don't appreciate that.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. When the female half of the partnership

got too uppity.

[Kittycat]

20. It's not about hate. It's about divisive politics and poor judgement.

n/t

[jhrobbins]

24. A lot of the posts here lately seem to be about hate. n/t

[StClone]

21. Don't turn this on me!

I have supported Bill and Hill since they first got into the White House. Their influence was huge. Unfortunately for Hillary's aspirations, they are a package deal.

They have had their time in the sun and muddied things, but in the end the Clinton legacy is a good one. Time has slipped away from them as time does aided by a person whose time has arrived. Hillary was not my first choice, nor my second. She would be my candidate of choice mostly by default.

However, it was the absolute hatred by those other than myself that caused me to recede from Hillary. The idea of what The Right would do to attack her would turn people off and give the Republicans a chance to take another election.

With Obama you have a man of mass appeal, especially to the young who may vote Dem for years to come...I want it positive and at the cost of a chance of a fine Dem. President (Hillary), I support Obama. Still I send warm regards to a woman cheated of her chance in history because of circumstance.

[lapfog_1]

22. First off, it's not the Clintons

as far as I know, only one is running for something at any given time... right now it's Hillary.

Second, I don't hate either of them... however, I have always disliked Hillary.

Third, I do hate some of their campaign tactics... like the decision to leave her name on the ballot in MI, or the decision to try to seat FL only AFTER she won Florida or... well, you get the picture.

[tpsbmam]

23. I don't hate the Clintons

HRC's voting record is not what I'd like it to be but, as I've said before, I didn't make my mind up until just recently. HRC certainly has some votes I hail, but then she has others we all know well that really disgusted me. It was the nature of her campaign that finally convinced me to vote for Obama -- her campaign (including her take on delegates and superdelegates) has been a HUGE turnoff for me.

[smiley_glad_hands]

25. I wouldn't say its hate.

But when you gotta ask what the definition of "is" is, then you gotta start to at wonder about a person. Take away the blue dress, and all is well.

Were they unfairly targeted and the situation manipulated? Yes, but if Bill keeps his little bill in his pants, we probably would have had 8 years of Al Gore.

[politicaholic]

29. Hate is the wrong word I think...

There is a certain distrust because of some of the policies that Bill Clinton had. Hillary is of course a different person and if elected would be the Commander. That doesn't mean that her status as an insider wouldn't influence her policies. Both of them are very good politicians, have done, and would do, great things for the nation. Unfortunately, Bill's policy on NAFTA, his deregulation of the number of radio stations a single company can own in a market harkening in the red saturation of the airways, and turning his back on Rwanda while spearheading the war in Kosovo left a bad taste in the mouths of Democrats.

Though one would think that wouldn't taint the reputation of Hillary, she has shown a willingness to play politics much like her husband. By ignoring the evidence on Iraq in 2002, avoid the FISA wiretapping issue to keep from looking soft on terrorism, and presenting a health care plan that, yes, would insure millions of Americans, but totally turn a 180 on what the original intent of universal health care is. "Insuring" but not "ensuring" their care. A multi-billion dollar boon for insurance companies and not changing their policies is not universal health care.

Hate is not the word of the day. Change is.

[Flabbergasted]

30. I've pondered this question a lot lately.

For me it was when she hinted repeatedly she would run. My gut reaction was disdain. I thought it meant she would be handed the nomination and there was little we could do about it. It felt like the peoples voice was going to be silenced because of her.

Besides that I don't see here as a progressive. I see her as a socially liberal Republican. I also see her body language as betraying her inner being.

[Iktomiwicasa]

31. For me

it has been her maneuvering and manipulation in a quest for personal power. I sincerely feel that she doesn't want the Presidency for the sake of the country, but rather for her own sake.

[Big Blue Marble]

32. I think the first thing was NAFTA.

Then there was the welfare "reform" that Bill promised to fix in his second term. I still voted for him again in 96. I was very disappointed in his
behavior in Lewinsky matter. He was wrong to have lied under oath. I wished he would have just resigned. Al would be our president now and
our lives would be a lot different.

Clinton did some good things in his presidency. He balanced the budget if you include the trust fund. That helped kick start the 90's economy.
He made two good appointments to the Supreme Court. And he was much better than the next bozo.

I do not like it that the Clintons always make it about themselves while pretending it is about us. It never is. There is so much drama
around them. It just gets tiring. I am all ready sick of it and it has only been two months. Four years would be awful.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. Still don't hate her but she lost all my respect.

When she lied about Obama's record on choice.

[Johnny__Motown]

38. I don't hate them, I just dislike them and would like to hold our elected officials to higher

standards than they seem to hold themselves to.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. It goes back to NAFTA, excluding the grass roots from Hill's secret health care meetings, the

fact that the Repo turn out in 1994 was identical to 1990 and NAFTA kept many Dems at home (that's why the Repos took over congress) the Telecommunications bill, the gutting of the welfare system under Bill, Hillary bashing Kerry with a right wing dishonest meme, Hillary's close ties to the military industrial complex (money) to big pharma, (money) to health insurance companies (money) the Iran Resolution, the bankruptcy Bill, - There's more but those are off the top of my head.


As far as the IWR goes
BILL TITLE: To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq (commonly called the IWR)

Democrats in congress 149 noes

108 yes

Hill voted with the Repos on the war and against the Dems. As you can see, a majority of Dems voted against the war.

[Middle finga]

41. I don't hate her but I don't like her.

she voted for the war strictly to position herself as CAC, she wasn't mislead, Bill and Hill knew what was going on in Iraq at the time, they'd been in the WH for 8 years, they had only been out for 2 years when Bush took us to war. You mean to tell me as smart as the Clintons are they allowed some brand new ignorant fool from Texas to dupe them into supporting the war? No, Billary wanted to ensure they were politically on the right side of the war issue, they didn't care about lives being lost as long as they were on the right side of that issue so they could slip back into the WH. And when she announced her candidacy my first reaction was, "Lady you have some nerves."

[Big Blue Marble]

47. You sure nailed that one.

Her vote was as expedient and as calculating as they come. I think she did buy the short war and out theory.
She thought by now that "little" war would have receded into our history and she would pay no price.

In that decision, she showed all of her character flaws and why she is not fit to be our leader.

[DearAbby]

42. Voting for Obama does not mean I hate the Clintons

It just means I believe Obama is the better candidate. Nothing more than that. This isnt a popularity contest, its not American Idol.

1. I believe Obama can beat McCain

2. I believe Obama can inspire people in this country to work at what will be a difficult job ahead of us. No President can do it alone, he/she will need the people behind them working. I believe Obama can motivate people to do this.

3. Obama is a fresh face, with new ideas. The old ways are not working. Look around you. We need to move on to the future, he and others like him are our future.

4. Obama's is well respected world wide, I believe with him being elected, We will need this, we have a lot of work to do on a global scale.

There is a lot of "I believe's" in there. But there is also a lot of trust as well. I trust Obama to do what he says. But he isnt asking to do the job alone, He is asking for our active participation in making it happen. You and I, When was the last time you could say, you trusted a politician?

Hope, it isnt an empty word. Its so sad, 8 yrs of darkness has taken hope from you. Clintons ran on hope, "Dont stop thinking about, tomorrow" Somehow Hillary Clinton had forgotten that. It's so sad, some of you had too.

[Exilednight]

44. Speaking for myself, I love Bill Clinton, but can't stand Hillary. I had my doubts about....

her sincerity, and this election has confirmed those doubts. She has adopted Rove style tactics, and that is not the party I belong to.

I hate the fact that shrubeney plays the fear card with terrorism. Hillary played the same card when she made her statement about foreign leaders using her as propaganda. Anyone who sees it differently is arguing semantics.

I hate the fact that shrubeney keeps moving the goal posts. Hillary has continually done the same thing in this campaign with every lost primary. First it was Iowa, but it didn't county, Nevada didn't count until she won, she broke even on Super Tuesday which was suppose to be her winning day, but then it didn't count. Now Texas and Ohio are her new firewalls, but wait - she's now trailing in the polls. Time to move the goal posts to Pa.

I hate the fact that shrubeney won the Oval Office by stealing the election and silencing the voice of the voter. I hate the fact that Hillary is using Super Delegates to silence the voice of the voter and award her the election.

I hate shrubeney's hubris personality. I hate the Hillary's hubris personality in believing that she is owed my vote based on her last name. Her failure to plan for after super tuesday is proof of that hubris.

[sam sarrha]

48. somewhere during the nearly 2 decade long media hate blitz..

[cbayer]

50. I think that the unmitigated disaster of the past 7 years

has tainted everyone who has deep political ties.

Most of the accusations of Clinton having been a part of that disaster are just wrong. But it doesn't matter. The Old Guard are being painted with the same broad brush.

People in this country are sick to death of what has happened and want everyone associated with it to go away.

It is unfortunate, because I think she would be a wonderful president. But at this historical moment, the people appear to be indicating that they want something very new and different.

[CyberPieHole]

53. When the "lesbian Hildabeast" decided to stay with her "cheating husband"...

I grew to hate her.:sarcasm:

Or at least that's what I read from some Obama supporter yesterday on this site.

[BklynChick]

54. I didn't like Bill because he moved the party to the center. Hillary for that and other reasons

[Tatiana]

59. I don't hate the Clintons. I'm just tired of them in the White House.

And I dislike their political tactics as applied to other Democrats.

[KoKo]

62. The results of NAFTA and Media Dergulation of '96 that came home to roost after

they were out of power when the "results" hurt us so badly. For those of you who weren't around...you might not know the history...but for many Democrats we looked on Bill Clinton the way you look on OBAMA Phenomena." Clinton ran on "Hope and Change" he was going to SAVE US...we had a terrible economy under Poppy Bush and we had suffered under wage stagnation and inflation while Bush I drove our economy into the Crapper. Bill was the "Hope from a "Town called Hope in Arkansas!" He was young and good looking and so was his wife. After four years of Poppy Bush and 8 Years of Reagan we Dems were suffering.

Now we have a "New Bill...a ...New DEM DUDE...who promises it ALL!

Some of us...many of us Dems have seen it all before..so we have a bit of skepticism. And...I didn't even mention the Promise of the YOUNG OUTSIDER...Jimmy Carter...the Peanut Farmer who was "Outside the DC BELTWAY...and he did a 50 State State Strategy....where he did VISIT EVERY STATE.... He ran on "Cleaning Up DC Politics" after Nixon.

So..you see ...some of us have heard this all before...many times...with different tonalities...but we've heard it... It's what they do....

[jody]

63. People always find others to blame for their own failures. Some Democrats are no different. n/t

[Ravy]

64. Deleted. Meant as a reply to a thread, not the OP

[VotesForWomen]

67. bottom line: dems are suceptible to media spin just like anybody else. nt

[Raine]

68. I don't hate the Clintons. I'll always be grateful

to Bill for "giving" me back my country after all those horrible Raygun/Bush1 years. On reflection though I realized that Bill really let me down and the liberals down. I can't see that the Clinton's really did anything for us, they didn't bring any lasting liberal change to the country. I can't go another term of either the Bush or Clintons. :-(

[Warren Stupidity]

69. Why is 'not my choice' 'hatred'?

I note that there are certainly Democrats who hate the Clintons, as there are Democrats who hate Obama. Just spend 10s reading GDP. Better yet, don't spend 10s reading GDP. However, your post seems to characterize 'not my choice' as 'hate' for all of us and for Democrats in genereal. It ain't hate in most cases, certainly not in mine. As to why Clinton is not my choice, well there is Clinton fatigue, an ominous dread of the interleaved dynastic succession of Bush and Clinton families, and then there is the problem reflected in your exasperating second paragraph on that mind-boggling bad, criminal, and disastrous expedition Clinton voted for to go conquer and occupy Iraq. It doesn't help that Clinton voted for the IWR, it helps less that her supporters here remain so massively obtuse and stubbornly and publicly stupid on this issue.

[MzShellG]

70. They lost my trust when they started hanging with Bush....and defending W on Iraq.

It made me look at them in a different light. No longer seeing them through the rose colored glasses of the '90s. Their behavior in this campaign just reaffirmed my distrust to a deeper level. No hate necessary.

[Medusa]

71. South Carolina

that was it for me.

[Obamaman2008]

72. When she stopped being honest nt

[DemVet]

74. Reading these replies, I would hate to be Obama....

....he'll probably be the one being thrown under the bus 10 years from now.

[sendero]

76. It's the war, stupid..

... I don't see how anyone can NOT see why her base is abandoning her. She is voting and acting like a Democratic neocon.

We're DONE with the neocons and we want a clean sweep.

[TexasObserver]

77. January, 2008: New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina did it for me.

And since then, the litany of nasty attacks that would make Rove beam with pride.

I defended Bill for 16 years from all critics. I stopped defending Hillary when she voted wrong on IWR and made clear with all her positions on such things as the Patriot Act, Cluster bombs, and Iraq that she was devoted to proving to the right that she was "safe."

[OhioChick]

79. NAFTA and Outsourcing.... n/t

[stillcool]

80. Iowa