If not Hillary, will I vote for McCain? NO! Of course not. However

[question everything]

as the pollsters like to ask, if the elections were held today I would stay home.

Yes, this is in contrast to everything that I have been saying here for over a year, about how it is about the Supreme Court.

And I hope that come November, I will reconcile with all the hateful messages on DU and on Newsweek and on MSNBC. I may even start watching Olbermann again.

When the first debate took place, I felt proud about all of them.. well, maybe not about Gravel. I thought that I would gladly vote for any of them.

But then Obama started rising as a rock star, with Oprah and all the hysterical young women. And people started talking about voting for the black candidate, and "our time has come" and DUers weeping on these pages about how proud they are.. and any discussion about the issues were left by the wayside.

And Clinton was, still is, disparaged for her voice, her hair, her cleavage... too many educated free styles (not slave at a 9-5 jobs) white divorced women said they would not vote for her because she did not divorce Bill.

A couple of newbies here - as judged by their joining date, not their number of posts - expressed how they hate and are sick of Clinton, for no explanation as to why.

And when any of us would post something praising Clinton or criticizing Obama, in most cases we would just be called names, or dismissive comments, without any substantial debate. Which, of course, has been our point - that Obama, at least his supporters, are all style and no substance.

If Obama is such a sure thing, and I think that he is, why have the Obama supporters on these pages had to rush and swarm with negative comments every thread which was positive about Clinton last night? Why not just be content in your win and move on?

Even McCain yesterday ran to apologize to Obama for a comment made by his supporter, but only several months ago chuckled when another supporter asked him about "the bitch."

Yesterday on CNN, the supposedly "pro Clinton" network (according to DUers), they took offense at Clinton's suggestion that the media was biased. Cafferty - a cantankerous old man that would never warm up to a woman president - and Gloria Burgess criticized her campaign. I agree with them. The men on her campaign screwed it up and I cringed at every turn, from "demanding" that Obama return his Hollywood contribution to the plagiarism complaints. But this is not a reason to ignore her platform and to give Obama a clean ride. Kerry, and Gore (remember the alpha male?), had lousy campaigns but no one said that this was the reason to vote for Bush.

I am older and I am still being taken aback by the rude and hateful comments that people use while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. Or, perhaps, such rudeness is now common in public. Certainly road rage and using cell phones at the movies are an indication.

As I replied to someone here who just laughed, my spouse and I are the older baby boomers. We no longer have to worry about freedom to choose abortion, or about the draft and, chances are, Social Security will be for us until we die. We also were lucky to work for corporations, yes, these hated monsters, who paid us decently, contributed to our 401Ks and even set a side a small pension. It also allowed us to contribute to worthy causes like... DU, sometimes even on behalf of other DUers who cannot.

So sometimes I am tempted to just say: the hell with this. We got ours. We fought for civil rights and for women's rights and were active in many Democratic campaigns - national and local. Perhaps it is enough.

Perhaps I need to stop visiting GD-P, but as long as Clinton is in the race, I will continue to participate. And for all of you who are ready to alert me about the closing door not hitting me - nice try. I like the DU community and, once outside GD-P, I find may rewarding exchange.

And, perhaps, come November, the wounds be healed.

[displacedtexan]

1. Beautifully stated!

After reading so many "I wish the Clintons would just go away"-type threads and replies, I'm
beginning to wonder what the party would be like without them. As I've stated before, I
hope Obama is the real deal because he will have to take up the Clintons' big job of
raising $100 million for Dem candidates (Hillary has raised $55 million since 2001).

Obama is still an unknown quantity to me. I want someone who already knows how to fight the
tightie righties.

[Beacool]

11. I wish the Clintons would tell the party to go FUCK themselves!!!!

No one has raised more money for other Democratic candidates than Bill and Hillary Clinton!!!!! Heck, Obama must have forgotten who held fundraisers and campaigned for him when HE was running for the US senate.

Let the party rely on their new wonder guy to take over and raise funds for himself and the other candidates.

[still_one]

36. The personal attacks have occurred on boths sides here, and both sides

should think long and hard before they PERSONALLY attack each other's candidates with the belief that it will help their candidate

As I have said before, NEITHER candidate can win the general election without the other candidate's supporters

Whatever happens so be it. For me, I will vote for WHOEVER the Democratic nominee is

[shayes51]

2. Well stated.

[bellasgrams]

3. I feel as you do, very good post. I can't imagine myself ever

voting for BO, he and his rude supporters have ruined any chance for me to vote for him. As for the S.C. I'm not sure it will make a difference between McCain and BO. He thinks repbs have done such a good job in the past, like Reagan, he may just follow suit. That point alone that he doesn't have enough sense than to praise one of the worst presidents we've had in my life time,makes me wonder how so many people have stood by him. He's no democrat. He's like a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[papau]

6. Folks say the past Pentagon contract killing&deficit hawk may make McCain the better "moderate" -but

you would not have all that left type talk all said in such an inspiring way.

[papau]

4. Well stated - I also have stopped watch all MSNBC - including KO - because of the Hillary hate

[ronnykmarshall]

40. I'm enjoying a LOT of CD's in my car these days.

Sorry Momma (Stephanie Miller), but I just can't take it anymore.

[TooBigaTent]

5. All the criticism (and critics) of posts like this do nothing to understand why so many

of us are feeling disillusioned by this round of the electoral circus and why some life-long Democrats are "considering" withholding our vote from the chosen #one (or #two). We are simply dismissed, using a variety of reasons.

This could have been glorious - a group of candidates pushing a liberal agenda at a time when the enemy was at their weakest point in decades. No matter who came out of the primaries, a liberal could have wound up sitting in the Oval Office, leading a government strongly re-alligned with liberal values and goals. The extra bonus could have been an historic event - a non-white or non-male POTUS.

Instead, we have two remaining two center-right candidates (to be kind) who have thrown shit at each other, encouraged by their supporters who were too afraid to sieze the moment. They each want power so much that they are afraid to present a strong, liberal agenda to the American people. They pander to the right-wing of our party and independents and republics who will insist on far-right policies in return for their votes.

I fear that this was a once-in-a-generation opportunity that the Democratic Party, each and every one of us, has completely wasted. Sure, it would have been tough, with the media and the rethugs against us. But the message would have resonated with the millions fed up with the GOP and the result could have been a major sweep of liberal progress. Now, the best we will get is a slightly less-bad version of the last seven (or 25) years.

[AX10]

17. I agree that this generational opportunity has been wasted.

[enid602]

7. present

Will there be an option on the ballot that says 'present?' Just sayin' . . .

[russian33]

8. abso-freakin-lutely amazing!! thank you!!

thanks for writing this!

as i said before, as it stands today, if Obama is nominated, he will have my vote come november, but that's it, just my vote..not my support, financial, moral, volunteer, not my cheering...just the vote, and it will be more of a anti-republican vote, than FOR Obama vote..sadly

[still_one]

35. I think people on EITHER side should consider this post before they

decide to personally attack their opponent's candidate, thinking that it will help their candidate.

I will gladly vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is WITHOUT hesitation in November, but understand the sentiments

[Occam Bandage]

9. There are six words in this that I agree with strongly.

"it is about the Supreme Court."

[charlie]

13. So does the OP

In the next few years, there will be two, perhaps three vacancies in the Supreme Court.

If Clinton is the nominee and you, and others, will stay home and McCain will win, you can say good bye to Roe v. Wade; you can say good bye to civil rights as we know them; you can say good bye to DU, Daily Kos, Olbermann, Stewart and Colbert. But you can welcome Bush's "legacy" of a Supreme Court full of Thomases and Scalias.

And I hope you will sleep soundly because even though you've helped ushered us into dark days, you "stood on principles."

I've lost count of the turnabouts from vote-Dem-or-you-are-to-blame to I-might-not-vote-Dem-and-you-are-to-blame scolds around here.

[question everything]

29. Thank you. You are correct. These are my words

that I have posted on several occasions.

This time I have given myself two "escape routes:"

1. That I am older and may not care any longer for future Supreme Court decisions, just had enough.

2. That I hope that come November I will reconcile with all the bad blood and will vote for the nominee.

[verges]

47. This has been a very contentious primary season.

The candidates have been at each other. However, a large portion of the sniping has been generated by "supporters" or "pundits." We're not voting for them. Why are so many people letting them effect their votes one way or the other? These are anonymous folks on the computer! Don't hold Hillary or Obama 100% accountable for the nonsense. Just remember to vote for the Dem candidate in November. And, of course, if you live in Chicago, vote often. ;)

[knixphan]

10. I'm an O-supporter

And I love ya!

But I understand the reaction - My advice - get out and talk to supporters on the street! That's where the love and respect is. Ignore the idiots. Youtube some of the sane Obama supporters and know that DU is not the rank-and-file.

Internet threads are havens for folks with limited social skills (I'm an exception!)...

Also, if you live in a state with sitting republican senators or a district with republican reps - Vote 'em out! That's arguably MORE IMPORTANT than a vote for Barack. The legislation we care about needs a 60% majority.

[question everything]

30. Thank you. You are correct and I am even a delegate at the district level

we have here a bizarre process that candidates are being endorsed by the party convention and those who do not, too often just drop out. As a matter of fact, when they announce their candidacy they pledge to abide by the party endorsement which really riles me, as this makes the primary a rubber stamp process.

And, yes, we have an opportunity to turn both a senate and a congressional seat from a Republican to a Democrat.

[tandot]

12. Thanks, question everything.

calling Cafferty "a cantankerous old man" is way to nice. His hatred for Hillary is more than obvious.

[Laurab]

14. And I feel the exact same way about Hillary and her supporters.

Surely you haven't missed the exact same type of posts by Hillary supporters? I am a bit "older", too, and Obama threads are filled with hateful comments. New, hateful Obama threads are started on a regular basis. And, there is a difference between a "bad" campaign and a "dirty" campaign. I'm afraid Hillary's has leaned toward the latter.

I am not saying that that makes the posts right, but how can you blame it only on Obama supporters, when some of the Hillary supporters start the most rude and hateful posts on here?

"We got ours" is understandable, I guess, but don't you have children, and maybe grandchildren, that the things you mention WILL affect? I do. And rude comments on a discussion board certainly anger me, but not enough to forget that I have an obligation to my children, my stepchildren, and my step-grandchildren to try to help make the world a better place. Allowing John McCain to win certainly won't do that.

[AX10]

15. Excellent! That is how I feel these days.

And I am still in my 20's.
:kick:

[Political Heretic]

16. Why the fuck is DU, Newsweek or MSNBC determining your VOTE

rather than what's best for the country.

How about you vote for a candidate that will not leave my best friend or my friends son over in Iraq with no end in sight to have their heads blown off and splattered against the walls.

Are their lives worth you being pissed off at people who don't have anything to do with the campaign? ARE THEY?

My god I think I've discovered why our country is such a fucking wreck. Apparently people vote or don't vote for the most STUPID, SELFISH, PETTY reasons. How about putting the needs of the country ahead of your hurt feelings?

If hillary staged a stunning comback, I would be absolutely HEARTBROKEN. I've never been so enthusiastic about a candidate as I am this year. And Hillary has made me really angry with her hostile attacks of the last week.

But you know what, despite how hurt and angry I would feel, I can tell you right now that I would VOTE FOR HER IN A HEARTBEAT TO SAVE OUR MEN AND WOMEN'S LIVES AND TO DEFEND WHATEVER IS LEFT OF OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM (SUPREME COURT).

My god... has the WHOLE WORLD GONE MAD???????

[FlyingSquirrel]

18. Thanks

That needed to be said.

[ronnykmarshall]

42. Perfect example what the OP is talking about.

I WILL vote for Obama, probably. I live in California, so I have that option to sit this one out if I want to.

I got the shock of my life this weekend when my mom (a democrat and Hillary supporter) said she doesn't think she can vote for him. The only reason she'll vote for him is if it looks like Grumpy Gramps could win our state.

[still_one]

43. Because we are all human, and humans are emotional

Personal attacks have occurred from both sides, and each side defends itself emotionally, NOT LOGICALLY, which is why personal attacks do not work, but only divide us

I do not disagree with your point, but it is very why certain individuals from both camps could be driven to this.

Each side's supporters should think very carefully about personal attacks. No one is particularly innocent on this, and there are consequences.

Neither side can win without the others supporters

It will be interesting if we self-destruct or not

[Tatiana]

19. If Dee Dee Myers was advising Clinton's campaign, she'd be the nominee. n/t

[democrattotheend]

24. Yeah, I saw her interviewed the other day

Really liked what she had to say. She would have been a much better adviser for Clinton. She is a Clinton supporter, right? Or is she officially neutral?

[Tatiana]

27. She is a Clinton supporter. And a very intelligent and fair one at that. n/t

[malik flavors]

20. I'll just say that I'm an Obama supporter that has a lot of respect for Hillary...

and I also disagree with the way people on here have to speak so negatively about her. My advice would be to just stay aware that DU is the minority as far as how people react to Clinton. Most Obama supporters would be happy to vote for Hillary, and If Obama wins the general I would love to see her having a prominent role in his white house. I would actually love to see him, edwards, and clinton all working closely in the white house because they're all great candidates that each have a lot to offer this country. Hopefully between now and the general (if Obama wins the nomination) there will be time for everyone's wounds to heal so we can come together and defeats the republicans in November. Don't let a few immature internet kids upset you to the point that you sit at home on election day. That wouldn't be productive for anybody.

[knixphan]

21. how does that 'golden rule' go?....

Nice if we all remebered. And turn our attention to the plight of the middle class, and not our little online spats.

The rightwing is focused and aimed at you. Time to unite.

[pleah]

22. K&R Thanks.

[calico1]

23. You have described almost exactly how I feel.

I think about the SCOTUS and think it's important to vote for that reason alone. Yet, sometimes when I read all the snarky comments (especially from some of the younger people) who dismiss us older voters as some irrelevant, senile fools I think "You know what? Maybe these people need to fight all over again for some of the rights they so take for granted. And maybe when they realize how hard the fight is and how hard these rights they had were to get they won't think we were so useless after all."

Thanks for the spot on post.

[question everything]

32. Interesting thoughts. There are too many young women who loath the term feminism

or feminist but they take for granted all the rights that they have, like having credit on their own names, purchasing a home without the need of a male co-signer, etc.

Which is why the trivial attacks on Clinton from so-called feminists is really astonishing.

Then there is also the right to privacy. The Patriot Act has given the authorities the right to investigate our most private transactions yet there are too many people, on DU, who claim that they have nothing to hide and this really boggles my mind.

[calico1]

38. We are at the point now where there are

several generations who do not remember, did not live through and can't relate to the struggles that brought about many of the rights you mention that are so easily taken for granted. I think this is one of the problems. So many people today didn't live in a time where you couldn't get credit on your own, where you could openly be discriminated against because you were a woman, etc. You are right. So many of the things people take for granted today were not rights that existed. We got them through years of hard battles and fights. I guess it is inevitable that after several generations it is difficult for the appreciation to remain when many of the people just can't relate because it was not part of their life experience.

[leftynyc]

25. My mom feels the exact same way as you

Claims that if you took the words hope and change out of Senator Obama's schtik, he'd have nothing to say. Dad, sis and I are trying to change her mind and are hopeful that after awhile, she'll come around. Glad I never recommended this site to her or she'd never do it.

[ronnykmarshall]

45. I'm glad my mom hasn't ever visited here either.

[Bake]

26. I'll probably vote for BHO, but that's about it.

And not very enthusiastically, at that. I certainly won't contribute to his GE campaign. Or speak up for him.

He won't miss my campaigning. Or my contribution. He's got legions ready to do that.

Sigh.

Bake

[End Of The Road]

28. Thank you. I'm glad to know I'm not alone. nt

[FrenchieCat]

31. I think it goes both ways,

[still_one]

37. It has gone both ways, and that is why personally insulting an opponents supporters

or candidate, will not help that person's candidate

I understand on both sides it is a defense mechanism, but I also understand the consequences of that

[still_one]

33. There were times I felt like you, but from the Obama supporter perspective, and then I realized

that it was certain supporters on DU that was causing the divide, NOT the candidates themseleves

Individuals ONLY speak for themseleves

If they personally attack the opposition, that is THEM.

As someone mentioned on another thread GD:Primaries essentially is a cesspool

The only thing I can say is that I understand exactly how you feel, and don't blame you

For me personally, I will gladly vote for whoever the democratic nominee is

Each of us has to do as we believe, and if that means not voting because of what a particular supporter said, it is understandable, but I personally won't have those who wish to divide, disenfranchise me

Not voting is a statement also, not one that I choose to exercise, but nonetheless a valid statement

Perhaps people on BOTH sides should read your post next time they believe that personally attacking their opponent will help their candidate

[Emit]

34. You wrote, "...hysterical young women...."

:spank:

[ronnykmarshall]

39. Thank you so much.

I feel the same way too.

[jasmine621]

41. I thought i was the only one who noticed that about McCain. The "bitch"

comment just made him laugh but he even risked the ire of those he hopes will vote for him to fall over himself to apologize for the comments about Obama. People who deny the double and triple standard against Hillary are just simply lying to themselves and the rest of us.

[TheDonkey]

44. You said it. Obama is wrapping this up. We need to clean DU from this anti-O crap and get ready

to battle McCain.

Leave your crying for later. Now the real battle for the country begins.

[hfojvt]

46. Why do you hate Edwards?

You talked about GDP, and for a while there before he dropped out, Edwards kinda ruled GDP.

Negative comments are par for the course. This is, or should be (? Can I say that?) a discussion board. If you post an OP that says "I believe X, Y, and Z" unless you are ignored, you are probably gonna here from people who disagree with all three of those points. ("here" WTF? Ouch and you might even hear from some people who rudely correct your grammer (sic)) If you think and write that the Clintons are some sort of Democratic warriors fighting for ordinary people, then you are gonna hear my opinion that they are corporate warriors fighting for the upper middle class.

I am sorry if you find that to be "negative comments". It's hardly only Obamites who are reduced to name calling. Plenty of Hillary supporters seem to engage in little else, and this is about the fiftieth thread blaming the tone on Obama supporters.

[Mezzo]

48. It's true. It's not the Pro-Obama, it's the Anti-Clinton

and boy they can dish it, but they sure can't take it.